I'm referring to the barrage of changes that Russ has invoked, if someone wishes to list them, that be good...


Which metrics might ChurchCo be most concerned about?

activity rates?

(slowing) birth rates?


declining tithing receipts?

fewer convert conversions / baptisms


I might be wrong on this, but if it Walks like a duck...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2019 02:19AM by GNPE.

I vote for declining birth rates. I see that as their surest source of committed members.

I agree, declining birthrates maybe the biggest threat to stable societies for a whole host of reasons. And that's what concerns me. I think that people who can marry young ought to, and have as many babies as possible and teach those kids how to be successful Americans who are contributing and patriotic.

But as for Nelson, Wendy, Oaks, and friends (in his going public speech) he said what he was most concerned about was temples, and getting more worship for temples... as if there isn't enough Temple hoopla in mormondom. He is going to double down on this and remind us at every opportunity.

Visiting the orphans and widows, giving a drink of water to the beggar, being Christian, all will take a backseat to Temples and genealogy. In Nelson's latest GC speech remember he told us if we aren't all temple covenanted and branded (like his dead daughter) we can all go to hell...

"I agree, declining birthrates maybe the biggest threat to stable societies for a whole host of reasons. And that's what concerns me. I think that people who can marry young ought to, and have as many babies as possible and teach those kids how to be successful Americans who are contributing and patriotic."

This is one of the most misogynistic things I've read on RFM.

This comment says people, but it's really women who do the work of reproducing and most of the work of child rearing.

How young do women have to start? How many babies do they have to have. How much choice do they get in your grand scheme?

Have you read The Handmaid's Tale?

No kidding. It was so full of creepy it almost didn't seem real.

Wasn't it supposed to be a joke? When there's more than 7.5 bn people on the planet, how can anyone be worried about a falling birthrate?

I've an ex-Mormon friend who lives near some important people. He asked one what is the biggest problem facing the church right now. he was told, "the number of GA's kids leaving the church."

Oh, macaRomney is certainly misogynistic. He's a dues-paying member of the MGTOW club here on RfM, comprising men who constantly denigrate women but who for some reason can never actually bring themselves to Go Their Own Way. In this instance I suspect macaRomney was just writing without thinking, but the thoughtlessness itself is symptomatic of deeper issues.

He is also fundamentally wrong. Elevated fertility rates are highly correlated not with political and social stability but with instability. There are exceptions, but it is tough to find a much stronger relationship in the social sciences. The other angle is to look at the age distribution of a population. A place like Egypt, with a high fertility rate and hence a ton of young people, is globally dangerous because those young people can't get enough jobs and spend a lot of time resentful and angry. They represent a pool in which terrorists and other enemies of public order and stability fish.

So why would anyone think a low fertility rate is associated with social turmoil? Perhaps because he sits in a country whose order he believes is threatened by an influx of people who don't look like him. It would thus be depressed fertility among HIS people that he fears; it is anxiety about the fate of HIS social order that informs his erroneous claims about social stability. He has of course said this clearly from time to time, asserting that in his view immigration is a bad thing.

So it's not just misogyny at work here.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... people who can marry young ought to, and have as
> many babies as possible and teach those kids how
> to be successful Americans who are contributing
> and patriotic.

OMG. I figured out your identity. You're Mike Lee, right?

Check out this video of him giving a Sacrament Meeting talk in the Senate. At 10:45 is where he claims the solution to everything is to have babies. Have babies now so they can fix stuff later!


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mike+lee+baby+video&view=detail&mid=4516CA78C3DE3535F1664516CA78C3DE3535F166&FORM=VIRE

Apparently ecology was not a subject he studied.

I tend to agree with this. But would add that the retention rate of the younger members is also dropping drastically. So fewer births, and fewer of those are even staying.

Which is why many of the changes seem to be geared towards retaining that demographic.

Perhaps it's the number of early return missionaries. I think that church leaders are deeply worried about losing the younger generation.

I figure MoMo Co has a decade or less to reverse current trends or it will slide into stagnation. And I don't really see the trends as reversible.

Full credit to Prez Nelson for making changes - but they will not arrest the trends which must be arrested: hence stalemate.

I think the declining birthrates may have something to do with the ChurchCo's desperation, but there's also the internet. The internet has been an informative rescuer for me. It will be TSCC's iceberg.

Agree.
Easy access to information means they can't control what people hear and see.

With the internet, you have to be willfully ignorant and determined to avoid fact checking about the church.

Also I believe Mormonism is experiencing the greater trend that other religions are reporting: a lot of people have other ways to interact and don't need to go swallow religious nonsense every week.

I think its all about money--how much they can keep.

Let's save money on janitors, and paying for activities, let's shorten the hours (less heating/cooling/lights), lets tell them they can't use the kitchen (I was told that as the YW leader), let's shut down low-attendance wards and sell them off.

It just seems like someone at the top said: we're not getting any younger, lets keep every penny we can for ourselves!

is that members might be falling away because of this issue right here and you don't see them funneling more money down to the wards, etc., and just building temples and traveling the world.

Is there anything in Mormon Leaks that indicates their supposed desperation?

One thing religious organization has in spades is thinking the world will end before their organization does.

I think it's simply that life is changing and all religions are in decline. So, kind of all of the above to your list.

slowing down? For sure.
Desperate? I don't think so.
going to be? Yes sireee Bob

Well, for what it's worth, my nice TBM neighbor really made a push recently to get my husband and me to visit the Oakland temple, which is currently open to the public for tours since it was recently renovated. She gave me a brochure about the public open period a month or so ago and invited me to go with another friend of ours (also a neverMo). I said I would be interested, possibly, in going with the two of them but would have to wait until my very busy semester wrapped up. Frankly, although I do have a mild curiosity in seeing the temple, my main interest in going would have been to enjoy a day out and lunch with friends, since I so rarely have time to do that. My neighbor then came by our house Memorial Day weekend to invite us in person to the temple, but we weren't home. (She texted me to say she had come by to do so.) She also sent a follow-up text to say she was going with our neverMo friend to the temple this week, but I already had something planned for that day, so I politely declined. She texted back to say she would be going up to the temple on Friday as well, and to "let your husband know he can ask me any questions about it." I found that last part more than a bit odd because I have never, to my knowledge, given any indication that my husband (who is an immigrant and very "culturally Catholic" although he rarely attends church) has any interest in joining Mormonism, or any other faith for that matter.

Anyway, I texted in response that if we do stop by the Oakland temple prior to the open period ending (I think this weekend is the last time it is open), we will be doing it because we may go to Oakland anyway this weekend to visit a relative who lives very close to the temple. In other words, although I did not say this explicitly, it's not like we are going to go out of our way or make a special trip. She has not replied since then. Maybe it is just that it is rare for Mormon temples to be open to the public, but she has never, in the several years I've known her, made this much of an effort until now to try to invite us to anything Mormon-related. Not sure if that's a sign of desperation and trying to get new people into the church or just pride in the temple and wanting others to see it.