I wanted to look at a few ways that the church self-sabotages, and for a change, I thought I would avoid questions about doctrine and history. (If you've any additions, maybe keep it on the more practical level.)

#1 - No meeting times are advertized outside church buildings.

#2 - Many (most?) churches have dead phone numbers given online.

#3 - Dress code - Things are progressing, but many investigators must have been chased away for wearing slightly wrong clothing.

#4 - Using the term "investigator" - it sounds like someone involved in uncovering crime, arson or fraud.

#5 - Local members have little say in unit boundaries, when their knowledge would be practical.

#6 - Changing missionaries' locations all the time. This is to create loyalty to the church, not individuals, but means many investigators leave when the missionaries do.

#7 - A failure to integrate non-local missionaries with local membership. A lot of the time, ward/branch members can't even remember missionaries' names due to the frequent changeover.

#8 - Stake/regional conferences. Many unit buildings are abandoned at least two Sundays every year (four including general conference). There are never any signs on doors or gates to tell investigators this is the case.

#9 - Inability to think outside American cultural norms. Things are different elsewhere, even in other English speaking countries.

#10 - Most missionaries do not get the use of a car, although a few do. The result is that they often overrely on buses or bicycles, which explains how the church finds it hard to expand into remote areas.

Let's start into your list.
I'll open threads for each point so others may join.

1,2&3 For a "missionary church" most wards are not very welcoming without any way for guests or visitors (members from out of town) to find local meetings.

Related to this...

"#5 - Local members have little say in unit boundaries, when their knowledge would be practical."

Members seem only to recognize geographic boundaries. Better teaching to "love" people and in this respect them is a way they would shoot themselves less.

It's based on lies.

The fucking church blames members for being lied to and believing those lies.

It's run by assholes that only think of themselves. The most inspiring part of the church is their God damn fax machine that is linked to their bank accounts.

#11 --- Offering hurtful nonsense in exchange for cash.

FaT meeting

#12. LDS high schoolers are encouraged to share their beliefs to nonmember schoolmates.

This usually turns out really bad, as the LDS high schooler is usually mocked for doing so. Why? The LDS church’s beliefs are crazy and have been proven false!

Wow, thanks for getting it back in play. I thought this thread was a goner.

List of ways a walking train wreck of a spouse shoots themselves in the foot. I understand, how are you supposed to get agonizing holes in your feet if you don’t shoot them there yourself?

Sorry, almost forgot: And blame Gays for making you do it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2019 07:33PM by babyloncansuckit.

redskittle Wrote:
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> #12. LDS high schoolers are encouraged to share
> their beliefs to nonmember schoolmates.
>
> This usually turns out really bad, as the LDS high
> schooler is usually mocked for doing so. Why? The
> LDS church’s beliefs are crazy and have been
> proven false!

And being a teenager is bad enough without having this to contend with!

One of the common horrors of being an adult member is along the same lines - always being asked for referrals, and to invite friends. I tried that a couple of times. Twice was enough.

Jordan Wrote:
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> One of the common horrors of being an adult member
> is along the same lines - always being asked for
> referrals, and to invite friends. I tried that a
> couple of times. Twice was enough.

They are always asking. It never ends and is something Mormons have to endure until their end.

I think your list is kind of irrelevant. The top problem is that the church has nothing of value to offer anyone. That's the problem.

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
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> I think your list is kind of irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what?

These are issues people face before they enter the door, or shortly after. I'm willing to bet the LDS loses more people over these everyday issues than something like the Kinderhook Plates which hardly anyone has heard of.

The top
> problem is that the church has nothing of value to
> offer anyone. That's the problem.

If there was nothing at all there, no one would go. Some people like the community aspect, for example. Mormonism would already be dead if this wasn't the case.

I'll have to disagree with devoted exmo. There is a lot of people here in Utah that benefit greatly from religion and from mormondom. People who have kids need to raise those kids in some kind of society that teaches them morality, civility, and respect. Which are all things the mormon cult does quite well.

I have a lot of friends who are like me, irreligious SOBs, and supposed agnostics/atheists, and it's very apparent what direction their kids are going. We have an ADHD epidemic and snowflakes running around everywhere in the public schools. Marijuana is now legal in Colorado. Kids need structure and they aren't getting it. I'm afraid we're going to be needing a bigger penitentiary to hold all these "free spirits" and rebels as soon as they are old enough.

But I can also appreciate the fact that mormondom isn't a good fit for everyone. The leaders refuse to even hold a conversation with those who have a different view point. They tell all of us that we are just lazy or wicked and will go to hell and won't have a family like them (Nelson's last GC talk). There is a great deal of pride and arrogance in the hierarchy. ...I wish it weren't so.

>> I'll have to disagree with devoted exmo. There is a lot of people here in Utah that benefit greatly from religion and from mormondom. People who have kids need to raise those kids in some kind of society that teaches them morality, civility, and respect. Which are all things the mormon cult does quite well.

You don't need mormonism or any other religion to teach morality, civility, and respect. In fact the church does poorly on all three. They teach a shame based, unhealthy morality, they often go against civic norms such as personal boundaries, privacy, trespassing, civil rights, and they typically have little real respect for less active and non-mormons.

>> I have a lot of friends who are like me, irreligious SOBs, and supposed agnostics/atheists, and it's very apparent what direction their kids are going. We have an ADHD epidemic and snowflakes running around everywhere in the public schools. Marijuana is now legal in Colorado. Kids need structure and they aren't getting it. I'm afraid we're going to be needing a bigger penitentiary to hold all these "free spirits" and rebels as soon as they are old enough.

That's a reflection on their/ your parenting skills, not on absence of religion in their lives.

>> But I can also appreciate the fact that mormondom isn't a good fit for everyone. The leaders refuse to even hold a conversation with those who have a different view point. They tell all of us that we are just lazy or wicked and will go to hell and won't have a family like them (Nelson's last GC talk). There is a great deal of pride and arrogance in the hierarchy. ...I wish it weren't so.

I can agree with this.

The Mormon church really doesn't teach moral thinking. It's all, "follow the leader" and "do what the leader tells you to do." That's obedience, not morality.

Well yeah, unless zero value is what you’re after. I suppose one can always fault the thief for not being a better criminal.

God knows I’ve spouted enough crap here to start my own religion. But I know enough to keep it zipped in both places.

But let’s look at where you’re at. Still trying to sort out Mormonism, maybe from within it. That’s a lot on your plate. You must be a tough cookie. Yeah, uh, don’t try. Maybe you are projecting your own self-sabotage onto the church. What are you really looking at? The church teaches you to self-sabotage in order to get its meat hooks into you. That’s right, you’re a hunk of meat to them. Fit to be thrown to the dogs as the need arises.

But you know what, this where the Rocky Balboas come from. I think I said this before. Joseph, you messed with the wrong guy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2019 06:58PM by babyloncansuckit.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
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> But let’s look at where you’re at. Still
> trying to sort out Mormonism, maybe from within
> it.

Or alternatively discussing commonplace aspects of life for would-be new members, which are more significant to many of them than the obscurer pieces of history and doctrine that most of them will never hear of, even if they leave.

> Maybe you are
> projecting your own self-sabotage onto the church.

See below - doesn't really apply

> What are you really looking at? The church teaches
> you to self-sabotage in order to get its meat
> hooks into you.

It's very hard to relate these particular examples to anything within my own life. If I do self-sabotage, it's rarely from failing to tell people when I'm around or when I'm away, or never from exchanging myself with other people regularly in a business context. None of those things happen in my life. Only #4 perhaps - I use terminology some people don"t like. That's about it.

Yeah, I think it’s a terminology disconnect. First of all the demographic on the board is old school which was just brought up differently. Kind of like the church’s problem writ small. Old farts like us will die and you will remain.

I see the church trying to push spiritual idealism using tools entirely inappropriate to the job. Movements come and go. They go for a reason. The Latter Day Saint movement was great for its time. Now you are left to pick up the pieces. Spiritual idealism isn’t dead, it has moved on. Let the bones of the “prophets” turn to dust. No need to recycle them into tomorrow’s bread.

Jordan Wrote:
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> #4 - Using the term "investigator" - it sounds
> like someone involved in uncovering crime, arson
> or fraud.

Ideally the investigator DOES discover it's a fraud before committing!

I'm with you on #4 haha. Investigator is a perfect title for someone investigation the church AND if they are good investigators and do their investigation...the will uncover the fraud of it all. haha

Too much Joseph Smith at the expense of Jesus, practically ignoring Christmas and Easter,noisy and uninspired meetings, too many petty rules

#4 A hierarchy prevails in the Church: BIC member by ranked number of generations in the Church; convert (1 generation); investigator (0 generations). In Canada members with genealogy traced back through southern Alberta (Cardston, Taber, Raymond, ...) are the highest ranked.

Church members become unhinged when any uppity converts or investigators step beyond their boundaries. Do not take "our" callings or date outside your "caste."

One Sunday I overheard children playing in the Primary Room. Grandchildren of the Stake Patriarch told other children, "You have to do what we say because this is OUR CHURCH."

#5 Local members have no say in unit boundaries. They never choose anything.

Local worship parameters are set by people with no clue of challenges faced by members of these wards.

Rarely, for example, are wards aligned with local bus routes because Stake Presidency members or High Councilors would never travel by bus to Church.

I was home alone one Sunday. There was no bus connection I could take that would reach Church on time. Impossible for anyone in our sector of town to attend.

When my wife was a youth the ward they could actually reach on a Sunday (after 3 transfers) was not *their ward*. The ward heavies were soon on to them. My mother-in-law couldn't have a calling in that ward. Her temple recommend couldn't be renewed.

But the Church really doesn't care about poor families that travel by public transit.

Exactly! We had a lot of members who used public transport. Our chapel was hard to get to by bus, and impossible by train.

Meanwhile we had at least two people who lived outside the ward boundaries who came to our chapel, since their bus routes went nowhere near the other one.

I read an interesting study that one of the worst things the Church can do to damage a fledgling branch is to construct a chapel.

They have an LDS branch meeting in a convenient location usually downtown on regular transportation routes. Members can visit the branch for their Sunday activities. They can bring friends along to Church easily since another person or family easily fits on the bus. Activities common to a full ward either aren't held or take place in members' homes.

When they reach that magic number when they qualify for a new chapel, the higher ups expect that members will be grateful. But they find that activity takes a huge plunge after they move to the new chapel. Property available for a chapel is outside the city. Members who could easily attend can't any longer. Should they make the sacrifice? Maybe - but most do not. Many can not attend even if they wanted to because added transportation costs are more than their total income.

The chapel is now a drain on resources because they now have to maintain and clean it. When they rented space that wasn't their responsibility. Now they can do more at Church. An activity every night (except Mondays) may be more than ordinary members bargained for.

The example the article gave was in Warsaw, Poland. A great branch destroyed by "giving them a chapel."

#6&7 Separation of missionaries and ward membership need not occur, but happens because of policies and an insular attitude among members. If your concern is advancing in the Church, you don't gain the attention of people with power to elevate you by helping the powerless.

First, members could become involved with the elders or sisters more. When I worked nights I became the elders' favorite ride along to their afternoon appointments. You benefit from preaching with the missionaries. Try it. You might like meeting people who actually want to learn something rather than reinforcing their prejudices in a Gospel Doctrine class.

Second, when teaching with the missionaries I could ensure that they taught people what their obligations after baptism would be without minimizing to gain a convert who might not last a month before they become (rightfully) disillusioned.

Third, people join the Church hoping to satisfy their unmet needs. A good church could meet many of those needs. Unfortunately, most LDS wards are too disorganized or self-absorbed to begin to provide what these people need.

One shot for each toe! Perfect!

Roy G Biv Wrote:
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> One shot for each toe! Perfect!

I hadn't thought about that but now you mention it. :D

AGREE; they don't seem to note the contradiction between:

* He that is commanded in all things is a slothful servant* D&C 58:26

and


*God will pour out commandments to his righteous saints* 78:13, 82:8; Monson April 2013 GC


so, they mask their petty rules as matters of conformance - compliance - Loyalty to ChurchCo; violate those, No Matter How Petty, and you're not in your lane!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 02:26PM by GNPE.

Would like to see it embrace the healthy benefits of green tea instead of ban it as forbidden per the word of wisdom.

There was an investigator who inquired during an investigator's class why wasn't green tea allowed because it was so healthy? The lame duck answer he was given was he wasn't allowed to drink it, but he could take it in capsule form. LOL.

He didn't return after that Sunday. The answer made zero sense. TSCC shot itself in the foot royally that day.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would like to see it embrace the healthy benefits
> of green tea instead of ban it as forbidden per
> the word of wisdom.
>
> There was an investigator who inquired during an
> investigator's class why wasn't green tea allowed
> because it was so healthy? The lame duck answer he
> was given was he wasn't allowed to drink it, but
> he could take it in capsule form. LOL.
>
> He didn't return after that Sunday. The answer
> made zero sense. TSCC shot itself in the foot
> royally that day.

I have mixed feelings about green tea. I did drink it for a while, but I think overcaffeinating yourself is never a good idea. I think it is better than "brown tea", but other than antioxidants, I'm not convinced of the benefits. I also didn't like the taste, which is one major reason I quit it.

As for the Word of Wisdom, I have heard so many interpretations:

Some people drink alcohol-free beer/wine, but not decaf coffee. And vice versa.

Some people drink decaf coffee, but not green tea.

Some people drink green tea, but not black tea.

Some people drink herbal tea, but not green tea.

Some people drink cola and caf'd sodas, but not decaf coffee.

Some people don't drink caf sodas, herbal teas, green teas, alcohol free beer etc etc.

There is a surprising amount of variation in this rule. I known for a fact some Mormons do drink green tea, but I think it is getting into very controversial territory. More so than colas and Mountain Dew etc.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> #5 - Local members have little say in unit
> boundaries, when their knowledge would be
> practical.
>

TBM ward clerk in Utah County told me that ward boundaries are increasingly defined by the presence or absence of TR-holding Melchizedek men.

All the data shows that men are bailing out of LDS inc in much higher rates than women. Men are leaving, women are staying. (this is in line with most Christian denominations: male leadership, female congregations. see Why Men Hate Going to Church by Brian Murrow)

Wards need leadership by TR-holding Melchizedek men.

ward boundaries are often looking like weird Gerrymandered political maps. there might be only 1 TR-holding Melchizedek man on a particular street that's in Ward X but adjacent to Ward Y. If Ward Y doesn't have enough men active they'll carve the street out of Ward X and give it to Ward Y, and the active male guy is called to the position.

TBM ward clerk used the phrase "so few priesthood holders" and went on to describe the creation of the new ward boundaries.

and this is happening in Utah County.

Members at the ground-level don't have access to who is a tithe-paying active TR holding man. that data is presumably known to higher-ups who make the decisions about ward boundaries.