Some very disturbing news from Hong Kong recently, namely that the Red Chinese want the right to extradite people out of Hong Kong. Given that the PRC still has a network of gulags/prison camps, this is very bad news indeed. This comes in the wake of a million-man march in HK commemorating the Tianamen massacre by Communist troops, which people in the rest of the PRC don't tend to know about.

The LDS, of course, have a temple in Hong Kong, and have been angling after Chinese converts for some time now. They have been partly successful among Chinese students but meet clandestinely within the PRC.

When Hong Kong was taken over by the PRC in the 1990s, the promise was "One Country, Two Systems", and that Hong Kong would be left alone. The LDS can practise there freely. In the PRC, they can't because the state (which is officially atheist) insists on controlling every single religion, and does not allow those which are headed up abroad. However, the PRC has eaten away at this and has moved tens of thousands of people from the PRC into HK to colonize it.

Anyway, interesting times. Will the PRC clamp down on the LDS in HK? I suspect they are low on the list of ideological targets. But should tensions rise between the USA and PRC then the LDS will become more of a priority for the secret police.

> But should tensions rise
> between the USA and PRC
> then the LDS will become
> more of a priority for
> the secret police.


I think you give way too much credit to the mormon church. Sure, the PRC can 'determine' that every practicing mormon is either a spy or a usurper, but after they deal with those 243 individuals, the problem will be solved...

As a concept, mormons might have their own PRC chapter heading, but there's probably only one commissar tracking mormonism, and it's just one of his nutty-fruitcake assignments.

I don't entirely disagree, but these types of regimes are paranoid about religion. Churches played a huge part in bringing down East Germany, and in the Soviet Union, they thought (not without reason) that the Baptists were an American Fifth Column. The PRC never had the democratization either of these countries had, but it shows signs of fear of religion. The treatment of the Falun Gong was way out of proportion and down to the fact that they wouldn't let the PRC government run their religion.

An obvious place for them to start would be by banning LDS missionaries from recruiting in Hong Kong. Or maybe even just ban foreign ones.

Religion specifically Christianity did help take down the Soviet Union. Pope John Paul II played a big role in that since he was from Poland and had no love for communism.

We will see what happens with the People's Republic of China. President Xi is a nutball but he has all the guns so the nutball very well could be in power cracking down more. I'm sure plenty of people would love to take him out but it's difficult to take dictators out when you are out gunned.

China is having serious economic problems with their bonds and currency. They need to export and if the world stops buying from them, they go broke and they go back to being a backwards isolated communist country.

We will see what happens to Hong Kong. Its no longer protected by the British because the lease ran out. Maybe we will see a huge exodus out of there and then the place collapses.

Sad to see because I spent part of my childhood in British Hong Kong. I remember people were moving to Canada and Australia because they were worried the mainland Chinese would take over. Well the Chinese played nice because they wanted to build up their military, industry and steal technology. But it's still an authoritarian regime. We were stupid to trade with them but cheap labor and large profit margins are hard to resist. Also many companies view china as a billion new consumers.

Well unless the government changes nothing else changes. China duped everyone by playing nice and it turns out they aren't so nice.

Well let's put it this way. I don't think the church is going to be baptizing people in China anytime soon and it's property in Hong Kong very well could get confiscated.

The LDS Hong Kongers like everyone else will be trying to get out of Hong Kong. I doubt the US will do anything to protect Hong Kong since it's a Chinese commonwealth but we are shipping arms to Taiwan.

A move against Taiwan means war but I doubt we will go to war over Hong Kong.

A lot of richer Hong Kong people, both white and Chinese, got the hell out of there in the 1990s, before Beijing took control of it. Many ended up in Canada, aome in Australia and the UK. A lot of people have ancestors who fled Mao etc and went to HK. Remember this was within a few years of Tianamen.

The more I think about it, the more silly building a temple there was. The East German temple was an amazing thing, but it could easily have gone the other way, and I think HK is going the other way. HK is heading further into tyranny whereas East Germany was moving away from it in the 1980s.

"President Xi is a nutball but he has all the guns so the nutball very well could be in power cracking down more"

Yes, this is a guy who had Winnie the Pooh banned, because the cartoon character was said to bear a resemblance to him. He's not as crazy as the Kim family, but the PRC does keep North Korea afloat... You just have to ask why?

in b 4 ~ this does not bode well for chinese fortune cookies ~


the fortunes provided by chinese fortune cookies has been in decline for may years precipitated by North Korean hacking into the chinese computer servers which host the fortune predicting algorithm matrix ~


now this ~


sad really ~

> the fortunes provided by chinese fortune cookies
> has been in decline for may years precipitated by
> North Korean hacking into the chinese computer
> servers which host the fortune predicting
> algorithm matrix ~


Damn. I thought they just used the Yi Ching...

ya ~


right ? ~

Mainland China holds a lot of the US debt. If China stops their constant stream of loans to keep the US funded, we've got big problems here. Mormonism isn't even on the radar screen in this equation. One of the first thing that happens when push comes to shove in China is that the Mormon church will cease to exist there. It'll probably come more as collateral damage, long before it gets targeted.

Stopping the flow of funds to the US would put the Chinese economy in depression. Hence they will not change their reserves policy.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stopping the flow of funds to the US would put the
> Chinese economy in depression. Hence they will
> not change their reserves policy.

They are followers of a desperate doctrine. The alternatives are to let this debt keep growing, to sell it on elsewhere or to cancel ot altogether - none of these are attractive. Debt is definitely a major threat to Sino-American relations.

Mormonism isn't a top level American target for the Chinese government IMHO, but it is a very American church, with a very American image. It wants its members to revere American figures, American history and even political traditions (there is a lot in the BoM about this).

> They are followers of a desperate doctrine.

What doctrine is that?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > They are followers of a desperate doctrine.
>
> What doctrine is that?

You know full well - Maoism. They may have apostasized somewhat from that true doctrine under Deng etc but Mao's hideous portraits hang all over the place and his prison camps and torture rooms remain in a one party dictatorship. Their ultimate aim is probably to rip the USA a new one at some point in the future, and that will be likely done by economic means. If they do succeed in that, then that will fulfil their ideology's prophecy.

Getting rid of the LDS in Hong Kong will be a small part of that. Beijing doesn't accept the LDS as they cannot control it. It would be a small piece in their fight against America, but still a piece.

Maoism? Forgive the giggle. China forsook Maoism and Marxism long ago.

Hideous portraits of a dead leader, prison camps, torture rooms, one-party dictatorships: you are describing a dime-a-dozen tyranny. That's what China is.

As for state ideology, economic ideology, the answer is emblazoned on state monuments and state media everywhere: "to get rich is glorious," and "rich nation, strong army." THAT is the legitimizing ethos.

No one pays attention to Mao anymore. They threw him under the bus fifty years ago. If you are still stuck behind that vehicle, I'd suggest putting on your turn signal and driving into the light of the 21st century.

"Hideous portraits of a dead leader, prison camps, torture rooms, one-party dictatorships: you are describing a dime-a-dozen tyranny. That's what China is."

You don't need to repeat what I just said.

However much we dislike the LDS, that system is incompatible with it. Although they do like hideous portraits of dead leaders.

"As for state ideology, economic ideology, the answer is emblazoned on state monuments and state media everywhere: "to get rich is glorious," and "rich nation, strong army." THAT is the legitimizing ethos"

And Lenin introduced the New Economic Policy when Communism caused the finances of the nascent USSR to shrink. It was backtracking, but it helped build up the economy enough so that the Bolsheviks could use it as a kind of reculer pour mieux santer.

The Chinese often think in the long term, even the Red Chinese. That is an admirable trait IMHO. One can see it in their space program, in which China has ended up as the tortoise and the USA as the hare. Slow but sure. The PRC already has the potential to collapse western economies overnight, something Mao dreamed of back in the 1960s and 70s. Such a tactic would help capitalism destroy itself. The Red Chinese are happy to put their citizens through evonomic hardship, even starvatiom and have done so many times in the past. In such a scenario, the Chinese would win because they are tougher, despite the effete tendencies entering in from the west.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Hideous portraits of a dead leader, prison camps,
> torture rooms, one-party dictatorships: you are
> describing a dime-a-dozen tyranny. That's what
> China is."

Once again, you miss the point. The point is that China is not a Marxist or a communist state. It is a simple tyranny, and all your pontificating about ideology is off the mark.


---------------
> And Lenin introduced the New Economic Policy when
> Communism caused the finances of the nascent USSR
> to shrink. It was backtracking, but it helped
> build up the economy enough so that the Bolsheviks
> could use it as a kind of reculer pour mieux
> santer.

The NEP lasted for several years, was conducted under state planning, and was reversed. None of that is true of China's turn to capitalism. The state doesn't even have the mechanisms of state control anymore.


-----------------------
> The Chinese often think in the long term, even the
> Red Chinese. That is an admirable trait IMHO.

It is also an inaccurate platitude. Anyone who knows the path of SOE reform or the development of the Shadow Banking system realizes that China is as myopic as any other government.


--------------
> The PRC already has the
> potential to collapse western economies overnight,
> something Mao dreamed of back in the 1960s and
> 70s.

Really? How would China do that? Are you going to reproduce the tripe about the current account imbalance and reserves? I hope so.


---------------
> Such a tactic would help capitalism destroy
> itself.

What tactic is that?


--------------
> The Red Chinese are happy to put their
> citizens through evonomic hardship, even
> starvatiom and have done so many times in the
> past. In such a scenario, the Chinese would win
> because they are tougher, despite the effete
> tendencies entering in from the west.

This is just silly. The Chinese government is extremely nervous about the state of public opinion. It no longer has a powerful legitimizing ideology like communism: the power of the state rests on rising living standards. Beijing knows full well that prolonged economic hardship could destroy the state.

Today's China is nothing like what you describe.

The PRC was founded on an ideology which wishes to destroy liberal capitalism altogether, or at least severely damage it. It now has the means to do that.

"The point is that China [sic] is not a Marxist or a communist state."

Yes, that's why it isn't run by the Communist Party as a one party state, doesn't call itself the "People's Republic", doesn't use rhe Red Flag, doesn't cover up the Tianamen Square massacre even today and doesn't have pictures of Chairman Mao everywhere. It also doesn't name one of its major missile systems after Mao's Long March. It also isn't on the Thirteenth Five Year Plan just now. None of this sounds remotely Communist.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The PRC was founded on an ideology which wishes to
> destroy liberal capitalism altogether, or at least
> severely damage it. It now has the means to do
> that.
>

Yes, it was. And modern France was founded on an ideology of world conquest. Do you lie awake at night afraid that Robespierre may be in your closet? Do he and Trotsky's ghost fight over who gets to torment you from under your bed?


----------------
> Yes, that's why it isn't run by the Communist
> Party as a one party state, doesn't call itself
> the "People's Republic", doesn't use rhe Red Flag,
> doesn't cover up the Tianamen Square massacre even
> today and doesn't have pictures of Chairman Mao
> everywhere. It also doesn't name one of its major
> missile systems after Mao's Long March. It also
> isn't on the Thirteenth Five Year Plan just now.
> None of this sounds remotely Communist.

I see. Political movements and politicians never deviate from their original ideas and promises. Thank you for clarifying that.


-------------
I'm still waiting, by the way, for you to identify the super-secret "tactic" that the inscrutable Reds are going to use "to collapse western economies overnight."

What tactic is that?

Mrs Lot, please contact me after the next non-Communist Five Year Plan is over in the PRC.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mainland China holds a lot of the US debt. If
> China stops their constant stream of loans to keep
> the US funded, we've got big problems here.

5% of the debt isn't nothing, but China also isn't an irreplaceable lender.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 04:12AM by nevermohio.

You are right. For some very powerful economic reasons, China cannot harm the US by shutting off the flow of capital.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 04:39AM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are right. For some very powerful economic
> reasons, China cannot harm the US by shutting off
> the flow of capital.

You forget that this is a regime which has starved millions of people to death within living memory. If they wanted to cause economic chaos, then they are far more equipped to deal with it than the west is, which has become too used to luxury.

Holding U.S. debt does not mean much for China, how are they going to collect ?
LOL

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Holding U.S. debt does not mean much for China,
> how are they going to collect ?

They don't have to collect...

I have been following ongoing events as much as reasonably possible through western media.

This looks like it is the end of Hong Kong as we know it.

Will the Hong Kong temple shut? Well, if this continues I can't see it remaining open. They shut BYU Jerusalem down after the start of the zecond Intifada for a number of years, and I gather at least one of the African temples was closed due to local political instability.

I don't think the church is worried. They are planning to send Elder Gong over with a little red book and a box of tithing donations.

Are those evil commies suppressing a competing criminal organization ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are those evil commies suppressing a competing
> criminal organization ?

:D Not far off the mark. However the level to which Beijing will interfere in a person's life is far more severe than Salt Lake - they can change your credit rating, put you in a prison camp or have you executed. Makes the LDS look like a Mountain Girls' outing.

And the U.S. government cannot do those bad things to me ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the U.S. government cannot do those bad things
> to me ?

They can, but are hopefully less likely to. One hopes the US government has a few more checks ans balances.