I propose only to some. There will always be those who will have a need for religious life in society as long as there are governments who tolerate religious expression and freedom.

Chaplains will still be needed for the military during times of warfare. There will be people who keep time honored traditions which include religious rites and observances to pass on to their posterity.

Religious life may be in transition mode, but it is still extant.

Distinguishing between what makes some churches prosper better than others, there are things that would stand out to me. Good religion is a humanizing force in its outreach. Whereas cults seek to de-humanize and divide. It's "them v. us" mentality.

Anyone in search of a religious life may find themselves coming up short, since many denominations are not exactly pure religion, but have dogma to pick and choose from. As for discerning what are cults, that is sometimes clear cut, and sometimes requires more study. The signs are clues that provide a roadmap which way is up.

Secularism and Humanism are giving religion in the age of globalism a run for its money.

Spiritual longing can't be bought or filled other than by spirituality. A Zen garden might be nice. Guess there are other ways to find spirituality than through religion. Secularism isn't going to do that. Maybe through humanism? To heal society and mend a broken world. If that isn't possible, is it realistic to try?

Yes and no. People still harbor unscientific notions - they love horoscopes, talk to ghosts (allegedly), pray for their football team to win and hold notions about people which are based on emotion not logic.

Do you mean with the population growth exponentially? Because without the Muslim growth, I don't see it growing in other sectors, truth be told. Christianity is not expanding at the same rate. Judaism is not growing very much.

There aren't too many religions that are to my knowledge except for perhaps Islam. And that has more to do with internal population growth than conversion rate. They tend to have large families, while other religions family growth is shrinking.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes and no. People still harbor unscientific
> notions -

they believe Marxism is a valid economic system...

HWint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jordan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes and no. People still harbor unscientific
> > notions -
>
> they believe Marxism is a valid economic system...

It was Marxism that taught religion is the opiate of the masses.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

Who still believes Marxism is a viable economic system?

Name them.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who still believes Marxism is a viable economic
> system?
>
> Name them.

Communists.

> Communists.

Name them.

Still waiting, Jordan.

Who are these mysterious Marxist/communists who are running the world? Can you name some?

Or are we to surmise that this is just more bluster?

You are giving humanity much more credit than it deserves. And Mormonism still goes on....

Even after 74 years of state sponsored atheism if not a direct attack against religion itself the Russian Orthodox Church has made an incredible comeback.

Never underestimate the power to want to believe.

I would even go as far to say that politics has replaced religion for some. There are zealots (both on left and right) who are just as scary as any religious zealot.

The revival of Christianity in Russia comes on the back of prison camps, the police state, social purges of hundreds of thousands, famines, nuclear meltdowns, and horrific wars... After all this, it's natural the Russian people want something to cling to. Whether it is the right thing is another matter. I do find a lot of their liturgical music very moving though.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The revival of Christianity in Russia comes on the
> back of prison camps, the police state, social
> purges of hundreds of thousands, famines, nuclear
> meltdowns, and horrific wars... After all this,
> it's natural the Russian people want something to
> cling to. Whether it is the right thing is another
> matter. I do find a lot of their liturgical music
> very moving though.

The Russian state is a brutal regime Christianity offers a respite from. That and Vodka. The great escape/s.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To heal society and mend a broken world. If that isn't possible, is it realistic to try?


“You are not obligated to complete the task, but neither are you free to desist from it.” (Pirke Avot 2:21).

But what is the task? What is broken in society and how does our world need mending?

Here’s a task: how ‘bout we clean up our own excrement:

People eat at least 50,000 plastic particles a year, study finds:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/05/people-eat-at-least-50000-plastic-particles-a-year-study-finds

No amount of -isms spun from the brains of Humankind go toward this task. Seems the kind of job scientists and technologists might be tasked to work upon. They could heal, they could mend. But what is it they task themselves with instead?

Plastic bags and straws are being banned in New York beginning next year. In Canada legislators are proposing 2021.

It's a start in the right direction.

It’s is, indeed, a step in the right direction. Where I live, plastic bags were banned years ago but plastic straws are still used. I hope my local or state government bans plastic straws soon.

Apparently there are some sincere members of the Flat Earth Society.


There is (according to FB) a guy in Pennsylvania who said that traffic roundabouts cause tornadoes.... Others claim that severe weather events are caused by immorality. Yuppers

There are many folks who believe that in spite of many bankruptcies, a certain U.S. leader is a good businessperson who has never lied to the citizens or cooperated with the Russians regarding the last presidential election.

There are also many folks who believe in a near perfect prophet who holds all priesthood keys in the church and uses people’s tithing money to help society improve.

redskittle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are also many folks who believe in a near
> perfect prophet who holds all priesthood keys in
> the church and uses people’s tithing money to
> help society improve.

That is one of the biggest delusions of all the Mormons preach.

Those are the real issues.

There will always people who have a need to believe in something beyond -- whatever that may be.

Religion my decline but never go away . Some people simply prefer faith over reason , bullcrap over facts , fantasy over reality .

No way... religion in every form is a great money maker.. why

would the leaders want to kill the golden goose?

saucie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No way... religion in every form is a great money
> maker.. why
>
> would the leaders want to kill the golden goose?

Outside of Christianity and the sizable spectrum of cults, I do not understand this.

Islam (which was mentioned in a post above), Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Druze, and native religions all over the world (including our Native Americans in North America) are (to my knowledge) not focused on "making money" beyond receiving enough income to pay expenses (and many of these do not involve receiving money at all).

There are exceptions: Nichirenshu Buddhism in Japan, the Moonies, the one or two Hindu gurus who set up little cult centers in various parts of the United States. I'm sure there are others.

The problem is that "cults" are not unique to specific religious traditions. Some faiths produce more than others, but the risk is present in many different clusters of religion.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are exceptions: Nichirenshu Buddhism in
> Japan, the Moonies, the one or two Hindu gurus who
> set up little cult centers in various parts of the
> United States. I'm sure there are others.

I agree with this (although my personal knowledge of Nichirenshu Buddhism is zero)--that's why I referred to a "sizable spectrum of cults." :)

> The problem is that "cults" are not unique to
> specific religious traditions. Some faiths
> produce more than others, but the risk is present
> in many different clusters of religion.

I absolutely agree with this as well vis-à-vis the more major religions, but this is not necessarily true with many of the tribal religions (the ones I am most familiar with are the Native Americans of California, New Mexico, and Arizona--with a wee bit of Cherokee religious tradition passed down my maternal line).

In Africa, some sangomas and other native healers do have "followings" I think would qualify, by our (non-African) standards, as cults.

I would add that sometimes cult leaders aspire not so much to wealth as to power. There were times in Chinese and Japanese history when Buddhist temples had their own armies and fought their own wars. There was also the Sikh Separatist Movement, which stemmed (as always) from economic and political as well as religious factors, which produced violent clashes with non-Sikhs and government agents as well as some terrorism.

Outside of Asia, the Zulu used religion as a partial justification for their conquest of much of Africa and we know that the Maya, Inca and Aztec powers routinely used religion to rally their forces in sanguinary wars. It seems likely that the native tribes of North America also used religion to justify their efforts to subdue their neighbors.

From my perspective the use of religion to gain political power is comparable to its employment for monetary gain. And both depend in part on the strength of the religion in its cultural and broader context. Vibrant religions are more promising vessels for personal ambition that those that have seen better days.

An important facet of this question is the state of the religion in question at the time in question. For example, some of the most pacific countries in today's world used to be extremely aggressive. Sweden, for instance, wreaked havoc across Germany in the 17th century under sovereigns that routinely invoked God to legitimize their wars. It is hard to imagine that now Sweden is no longer a great power, for with the shrinkage of ambitions comes a more peaceful attitude towards international affairs and towards religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 03:34AM by Lot's Wife.

The mosques where I live in the upstate region of New York have been under constant FBI surveillance for laundering money for illicit purposes. It's on a large scale international operation that's been ongoing for years. Lot of wealth being transferred through backdoor channels to basically what some consider unAmerican rogue activity. By wealthy US businessmen to overseas,

It's still kept fairly hush hush not to make waves by intelligence operatives on the ground.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 03:41AM by Amyjo.

Yes. Eventually. Once all the myths are discarded all that will be left if the understanding of human solidarity and the need to preserve the earth in order to promote the survival of future generations. HOpefully it will be based in science and reason, rather than in superstition and emotion.

HH =)

"The Marching Morons, by C. M. Kornbluth. Published in 1951.


This link allows you to read this short novella just as it was first printed:

https://archive.org/stream/Galaxy_v02n01_1951-04#page/n129/mode/2up

If you do read it, do take a moment to consider that it was published 68 years ago!

Gutsy solution to their "poprob" (population problem), que no?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Marching Morons, by C. M. Kornbluth.
> Published in 1951.
>
>
> This link allows you to read this short novella
> just as it was first printed:
>
> https://archive.org/stream/Galaxy_v02n01_1951-04#p
> age/n129/mode/2up
>
> If you do read it, do take a moment to consider
> that it was published 68 years ago!
>
> Gutsy solution to their "poprob" (population
> problem), que no?

regarding C.M. Kornbluth, from Wikipedia:

>According to [author Frederick] Pohl, Kornbluth never brushed his teeth, and they were literally green. Deeply embarrassed by this, Kornbluth developed the habit of holding his hand in front of his mouth when speaking.

Marching morons, indeed.

The Castle has been breached. All is lost and it's every man for himself!

Did you know that when they preserved Lenin's body to lay in that iconic tomb, the mortuary attendants thought that the Real Man was what the people wanted and deserved, and so they did not clean his crusty anus?

So, therefore ...

I don't think religion will decline to non existence and be replaced with Humanism. People look towards religion for a spiritual high, for a mystical experience something that goes beyond the everyday. They want to communicate with the spirits.

But what's going to hurt religion more than humanism is the tendency of religion to piss off people who are different. To hurt those who don't quite fit in as well. And most people not quite in the norm still hold to some form of belief or faith.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think religion will decline to non
> existence and be replaced with Humanism. People
> look towards religion for a spiritual high, for a
> mystical experience something that goes beyond the
> everyday. They want to communicate with the
> spirits.

Agree with this. One can only take so much news and science. People are more than cells and straight talk.

>
> But what's going to hurt religion more than
> humanism is the tendency of religion to piss off
> people who are different. To hurt those who don't
> quite fit in as well. And most people not quite in
> the norm still hold to some form of belief or
> faith.

And that explains (still to this day) why the need for so many splintered religions?! There are at least 20,000 and more in the world. If someone is so inclined to indulge their individuality they can go start their own.

Define "secularism, humanism, modernity".

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> Secularism and Humanism are giving religion in the
> age of globalism a run for its money.
>
>

When my mom was sick and dying, exactly zero people from the Secular Humanist Society came to volunteer at the nursing home.

Zero people from the You Don't Need Religion to Be A Good Person League volunteered.

Zero people from the Democratic Socialists of America volunteered.

Zero people from Mensa volunteered at the nursing home.

All the volunteers were from churches.

All of them.

Without exception.

Yes, I agree.

There will come a day when there may be no more volunteers when the churches will have dried up ... because they are shrinking across the board.

When their usefulness is no longer needed in society, then what?

Where my children went to high school and college church going students were clearly in the minority. As were their parents.

The denominations I've attended have been mostly populated by aging baby boomers or older, who are dying off. And not being replaced by Millenials or the younger generations coming up in the ranks in the same numbers. Churches are closing; synagogues are merging, as they continue basically downsizing to accomodate their aging populations.

HWint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When my mom was sick and dying, exactly zero
> people from the Secular Humanist Society came to
> volunteer at the nursing home.

> Zero people from the You Don't Need Religion to Be
> A Good Person League volunteered.
>
> Zero people from the Democratic Socialists of
> America volunteered.
>
> Zero people from Mensa volunteered at the nursing
> home.
>
> All the volunteers were from churches.
>
> All of them.
>
> Without exception.

How would you know this?

For example: How would you know that no one from Mensa volunteered at the nursing home? (People who are "in," or have qualified for, Mensa generally do not announce this, so a "volunteer" from a church could well ALSO be a member of Mensa--how would YOU ever know?)

Likewise, if you are using the word "churches" as a generic term for "people who, if they are asked, identify with a particular religious movement," if any of the volunteers were Jewish, they could well have been members of Secular Humanist Judaism--or else (regardless of what Jewish movement they may self-identify with), they may also self-identify as "secular" and "humanist." (Over 60 percent of American Jews do not self-identify as, in essence, "believing in God.")

Your "Democratic Socialists of America" statement is not allowed by the rules of this board. It is also inaccurate.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Likewise, if you are using the word "churches" as
> a generic term for "people who, if they are asked,
> identify with a particular religious movement," if
> any of the volunteers were Jewish, they could well
> have been members of Secular Humanist Judaism--or
> else (regardless of what Jewish movement they may
> self-identify with), they may also self-identify
> as "secular" and "humanist." (Over 60 percent of
> American Jews do not self-identify as, in essence,
> "believing in God.")
>
Tevai, I take exception with the "over 60% of American Jews do not self-identify as, in essence, 'believing in God,'" on a guttural level. It just doesn't register. So upon checking the Pew research data on that topic, it isn't really correct. More Jews actually do believe in God than not.

I know from where I live and worship and other places I have visited, that I have found this to be true among fellow Jewish believers. The Pew data research supports this finding.

"Belief in God

Seven-in-ten U.S. Jews believe in God or a universal spirit (72%), including one-third (34%) who say they are “absolutely certain” about this belief. Eight-in-ten Jews by religion say they believe in God or a universal spirit, including 39% who are absolutely certain about this belief. Among Jews of no religion, 45% believe in God with 18% saying they are absolutely convinced of God’s existence. Most Jews see no conflict between being Jewish and not believing in God; two-thirds say that a person can be Jewish even if he or she does not believe in God, as discussed in Chapter 3.

Belief in God is much more common among the general public than among Jews. Even among Jews by religion, belief in God is less common than among members of other major U.S. religious groups. And Jews of no religion are more skeptical of God’s existence than is the religiously unaffiliated general public.

Though most Jews express some doubt about God’s existence, certainty about God is nearly universal among Orthodox Jews, 89% of whom say they are absolutely convinced of God’s existence. Far fewer Jews from other denominational backgrounds share this level of conviction."

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/chapter-4-religious-beliefs-and-practices/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 07:05AM by Amyjo.

> Believing in ghawd
> on a guttural level

The above aside, perhaps Tevai was looking at the percentages of those Jews who were "absolutely certain" of the existence of ghawd.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Believing in ghawd
> > on a guttural level
>
> The above aside, perhaps Tevai was looking at the
> percentages of those Jews who were "absolutely
> certain" of the existence of ghawd.

You took both what Tevai said and I said out of context.

Tevai did not say with "absolute certainty", and my statement to Tevai was taking exception with the "over 60% of American Jews do not self-identify as, in essence, 'believing in God,'" on a guttural level.

I was taking exception on a guttural level with her statement.

Not belief in God on a guttural level, which is what you took out of context by misquoting me.

Let Tevai clarify for herself what she meant instead of you doing it for her.

Either you have reading comprehension difficulty, or you do it with deliberation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 09:59AM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> elderolddog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Believing in ghawd
> > > on a guttural level
> >
> > The above aside, perhaps Tevai was looking at
> the
> > percentages of those Jews who were "absolutely
> > certain" of the existence of ghawd.
>
> You took both what Tevai said and I said out of
> context.
>
> Tevai did not say with "absolute certainty", and
> my statement to Tevai was taking exception with
> the "over 60% of American Jews do not
> self-identify as, in essence, 'believing in God,'"
> on a guttural level.
>
> I was taking exception on a guttural level with
> her statement.
>
> Not belief in God on a guttural level, which is
> what you took out of context by misquoting me.
>
> Let Tevai clarify for herself what she meant
> instead of you doing it for her.
>
> Either you have reading comprehension difficulty,
> or you do it with deliberation.


I confess: on a guttural level, I'm a mess. I'm always talking out of the back of my throat.

It's all that German you studied.

Ach du lieber himmel!

Aber ich spreche nicht Deutsche!

Wie schafft man es also, Beethovens Neunte zu würdigen?!

And the French! All that swallowing of the 'R's! Spanish has all those trilled 'R's (Ferrocarril!) and in French you have to drench them in cheap savoir-faire and then swallow them whole!

"Flaubert" "Robert"!

The answer to that is obvious. No one turned up claiming to be a Mensa representative.

I doubt any of those Satanists turned up who pose in front of court buildings. Too busy preening themselves.

HWint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> All the volunteers were from churches.
>
> All of them.
>
> Without exception.


What does volunteering to take care of yor mother have to do with anything? Some people have their own families to care for.

Additionally, the groups you pointed out are tiny, in proportion to the general population. "Churches," by contrast, are huge, relatively speaking. I wouldn't expect to see any of them.

If, out of a population of 10,000 people, I sample 1% the people who are officially members of mensa, my sample size will be 0. But if I sample 1% of the people who belong to "churches," I would have dozens of people in my sample.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 11:13PM by Aloysius.

Polls show that people worldwide are becoming less religious. The largest religious "group" are the "nones" or no religion.

I think the trend will continue but that religion will still be with us for some time to come. I wish I were younger and could watch what happens.

With all the evidence against anything supernatural, I don't understand why so many intelligent people cling to their faith. They must get something out of it.

Perhaps they cherish the notion that ghawd likes them better than he likes you and me?

It depends. What do you mean by the term "religion"?

The word itself only makes sense from a christian, or pehaps judeo-christo-islamic, cultural perspective.

Anciently, in the west, and still today in the east, there is no concept of "religion" apart from a shared system of beliefs, customs, philosophies, and morals. Even if people believe that thing things have divine origin, they don't conceptualize them as being distinct from other, non-supernatural philosophies, customs, etc.

If what you mean by "religion" is the deep, sincere, honest belief that Jesus Christ was the literal son of god, who literally died, and literally came back to life, then I think that religion is pretty much dead already. People might claim to believe. But if pressed, I doubt many could get far past saying they "hope" those things are true.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I propose only to some.

What is going on here? You said we get off on the wrong foot when we discuss religion?

Why begin a thread when you *believe* religion leads to rough dealings in relating?

Odd!

You know, I didn't notice that!

Could it be that "I propose only to some." which was the first, and a seemingly incomplete sentence, was intended to mean:

"I am only speaking to some of you."

I would be one of those she would excuse from commenting, because on a gutteral level, she and I don't communicate all that well.

We're just not gutterally related. <heavy sigh>

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, I didn't notice that!
>
> Could it be that "I propose only to some." which
> was the first, and a seemingly incomplete
> sentence, was intended to mean:
>
> "I am only speaking to some of you."
>
> I would be one of those she would excuse from
> commenting, because on a gutteral level, she and I
> don't communicate all that well.
>
> We're just not gutterally related.


Dear one (and to saucie), THANK YOU.

<3

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I propose only to some.

Who?

The Chosen Ones?

Of whom, I am not.

Sigh.

What is a gentile to do, Amyjo?

It already is. Just look at the trendline.

HH =)

When I wrote that "over 60 percent of American Jews do not self-identify as, in essence, 'believing in God,' what I [inelegantly] meant was: Over sixty percent of American Jews do not believe in [a] God who is, in essence, the "Big Guy In The Sky."

In the Wikipedia article "God in Judaism" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism , the last paragraph in that article says:

"According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life's 2008 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, Americans who identify as Jewish by religion are twice as likely to favor ideas of God as "an impersonal force" [my addition: think 'gravity'] over the idea that "God is a person with whom people can have a relationship."

This quote is at least a large part of what I meant.

The facts on the ground are yet more complicated, though, because the Jewish conception of God covers about four thousand years of human history, and has been rethought and reconceptualized countless times over this period of time (because every Jew who is at all "religious" in a Jewish sense must re-think and re-conceptualize for themselves "what is God?"--and for a large contingent of Jews, this happens either a number of times over their individual lifespans, or--if they continue to study (which a significant percentage do)--the process is continually underway: day by day, week by week, and year by year.

Jewish children are taught a child's version of "What God Is" as they are taught the beginning fundamentals of Jewish observance (lighting candles for Shabbat, saying the blessings, etc.)--but kids grow up, and they become adults, and most Jews become parents, who begin this process all over again with THEIR children and their grandchildren, and as all of this happens, any given Jew's understanding is constantly evolving.

I have a [really good!!] textbook which was written for adolescent Jews (boys 13+, and girls 12+): THE INVISIBLE CHARIOT: An Introduction to Kabbalah and Jewish Spirituality, by Deborah Kerdeman and Lawrence Kushner, which--for those Jewish kids who haven't yet begun to question their childhood understanding of God--is intended to initiate that process, beginning with the "First Insight" on the beginning page of the text: "The World is a Gateway [means: to God]."

As kids (and adults; this is a truly fascinating intro to the advanced philosophical aspects of "Who Is God?," and is one of my favorite Jewish books) progress through this book, they learn how to critically analyze Jewish theology, Jewish thought, and the "library" of Jewish texts, written by the wisest and most knowledgeable experts, over the historical course of centuries.

If they are interested Jews, they will be doing this for all of the rest of their lives.

Although some (evidently: about a third) of adult American Jews DO believe in a "personal God," the other two-thirds are mostly always in transition, from one level of deep understanding to a yet deeper one--and all of these are in the direction of the Hindu concept of Brahman/the Jewish concept of Ein Sof.

There are a few exceptions. There are some Jews who, as late adolescents or as adults, decide to go in the other direction in their "spiritual understanding," and these Jews often join small Jewish communities in certain areas, which have these particular beliefs and practices, but these groups are a minority within Judaism, and this is (overall) fairly uncommon when compared to Jews as a whole.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 10:05PM by Tevai.

Thanks, Tevai.

I guess we still differ on the Pew studies and my own experiences with Jews I've known through association. The ones I've met share a common belief in a deity. Even the Pew research data shows between 70-80% Jews are believers in a God. And that 45% of Jews with no religion believe in God. I rely on research statistics for numbers since they are based on actual studies. I just don't see the 60% non-believers in the Pew research numbers. ... You're right people may not see God as a big dude in the sky, but they see him as an omnipotent overseer and creator.

I know it's okay to not believe in God and be Jewish at the same time. That is not a conflict in Judaism. Which is a collective sigh of relief for Jewish parents of atheist children. As one Jewish mother explained to me, 'even Jacob wrestled with God and the angel,' in his struggle to believe. There are many secular Jews in society who still consider themselves to be Jewish. They haven't left their identity behind. Unlike us ex-Mormons who struggle with the identity of being former Mormons. Having been Mormon was similar to being Amish in the sense that it consumes the identity of the person. Leaving it behind involves shunning typically by family and the faith based community. Which can happen in some Orthodox Jewish homes also. Thankfully I haven't had to experience that either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 11:12PM by Amyjo.

And here I am, chopped liver again. I was right about what Tevai said, but do I get an apology?

טאַקע וואָס אַ אומרעכט איך בין צאָרעס!

Ask two Jews, three opinions.

Pew makes four.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 11:24PM by Amyjo.