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Posted by: pollythinks ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 05:02PM

When I was in the hospital after just having giving birth to my baby, the woman in the bed triangular to me, was crying.

She told me she was Catholic, and after having just had another baby, she would go home and be back again within another 10 months or so.

I've often thought of her. She was an example of one trying to live her religion, and yet not being able to do so in a manner that she believed was the acceptable policy of her church.

--Shades of Mormon's, who used to dally in this same philosophy--.

(Although to be fair, there used to be a time when women could do nothing about controlling how many babies they had--and thus many had families of around 10-12 children.)

Also, remember, the Mormon's practiced bigomy for a period, and some men had several wives--and thus many more children.

My own family has a history of such a practice.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 05:15PM

Most RCs I know gave into contraception some years ago. The massive Catholic family of my childhood days is largely a thing of the past (at least in developed countries).

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 05:43PM

Even back in the 70s, I could only name two overly large Catholic families (10-12 kids.) The rest were normal sized. My mom and dad only had two kids.

There are a few Catholics who take their religion very, very seriously. I'm guessing it's about 5%. The rest made their peace with using "artificial" birth control a very long time ago. They even joke about it -- "Father, I sinned every day this week. I took my pill."

Most Catholics in first world countries make up their own mind about things. They are not doctrinaire.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:20PM

I wonder what accounts for that? I think that men have not changed since the 1950s or even the 1800s. The expression for the male gender continues to remain narrow.
But the female expression has expanded. The dominiant sex is the Female sex the bearers of the womb, they call the shots. They say yes or no to sex. Even to a greater
extent now since the rise of 3rd wave feminism, and Me Too. I think Men are generally just as satisfied with 2 kids as they are with 10 or more. They like the fairy tale of the SHW who is the good cook and a lady grace and polish who builds up her man, and takes on his name. But women's priorities have changed. Women think they are happier with less kids and a career. Many of them are unsure of what to do with their lives. Young women are dating less because they aren't sending the right signals to young men. They are very busy, and appear very masculine. But it isn't women's fault because they hear conflicting ideas, some say don't out shine your boyfriend, some say be a mother, some say follow the feminist ideology and be an activist for the lgbtqs.

My conclusion is that things have changed because of feminism.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:24PM

> Women think they are
> happier with less kids and a career. Many of them
> are unsure of what to do with their lives. Young
> women are dating less because they aren't sending
> the right signals to young men. They are very
> busy, and appear very masculine.

Yup. He wrote that.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:38PM

Young society isn't a happy place. Suicide is through the roof, more and more live alone. Because a lot of that generation has failed to establish stable, longterm relationships before middle age, they will spend most of their lives alone, and die alone.

They are also infected with various toxic ideas which will make them desperately unhappy like that everyone has the chance to be rich, respect must be demanded not earned, a starvation diet is good, sex is merely a form of masturbation, and that they are all special little ponies. If they belong to certain demographics, they will also be brainwashed into thinking they and their kind are no good, and they must work to destroy that.

A striking thing about them is how few of them are happy with their bodies in some way. They wish to modify them in some regard. Not just tattoos either. And when they modify them, they find that doesn't cure their malaise. It just finds another route.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 07:36PM

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Young society isn't a happy place. Suicide is
> through the roof, more and more live alone.
> Because a lot of that generation has failed to
> establish stable, longterm relationships before
> middle age, they will spend most of their lives
> alone, and die alone.
>
> They are also infected with various toxic ideas
> which will make them desperately unhappy like that
> everyone has the chance to be rich, respect must
> be demanded not earned, a starvation diet is good,
> sex is merely a form of masturbation, and that
> they are all special little ponies. If they belong
> to certain demographics, they will also be
> brainwashed into thinking they and their kind are
> no good, and they must work to destroy that.

Jordan, if these are your conclusions in your own search for a partner, you are looking in all the wrong places. Try other places--places where these kinds of people, just naturally, do NOT frequent.

Take some community college classes in subjects you have interest in, but have not really pursued before, AND which are generally "attractive" to those of your (preferred in a partner) gender: history, auto mechanics, how to play a musical instrument, local drama presentations, whatever.

Join in on some community service project: taking care of animals in need (companion animals or wild animals, doesn't matter which)....cleaning up some area of your community which needs physical cleanup....volunteering to pass out food and clean clothes to the homeless where you are....

In general, the people you will meet volunteering for these kinds of projects will be good, genuine, and dependable people.


> A striking thing about them is how few of them are
> happy with their bodies in some way. They wish to
> modify them in some regard. Not just tattoos
> either. And when they modify them, they find that
> doesn't cure their malaise. It just finds another
> route.

Depends on the body modification. One of the best things which ever happened to me in my entire life was working at a place (Litton Industries, in aerospace) where the medical insurance for Litton employees was really good, and being told by a female, fellow employee that there was this REALLY good plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills who had "done" HER nose, and if I really wanted this (AND I ABSOLUTELY DID EMPHATICALLY WANT THIS!!!!), I should go see this particular doctor, especially because he already did accept the Litton medical insurance she and I shared.

It was one of the absolutely, positively, over-the-top stupendously, most important and most wonderful things I have ever done in this life.

On just about every day of my life since the bandages came off (and the swelling began shrinking back to normal, even with the then-existing bruising) I have said: "Thank you, Dr. Berman, for my nose!!" (He also told me he had made my nose a bit shorter than it "should" be for my age at that time, but that as I got older, I would be grateful--and he was so, SO right!!)

Bottom line: Sometimes body modification can, at least in some circumstances, "save your [yet-to-be-realized] life."

Start finding and pursuing other, new, interests, with groups of people other than those you have been hanging out with, where the new people you meet will tend to be the kind of people you'd like to have in your life for the rest of your life.

Some of those are likely to be eventual romantic interests, and you will have already been connecting with a likely, compatible, group.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 03:26AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:21AM

I haven't seen any of what you are writing about, with perhaps the exception of body modifications. Tattoos, for instance, are more socially acceptable now than they used to be.

Most young people partner up. My nephew and his wife and daughter live in a newer apartment high rise in NYC. There are tons of young families just like them in that tall building. I keep up with my young friends on social media and they seem to be marrying and starting families at the same rate they ever did.

They don't think they are "special ponies." They pursued their educations and are working diligently at their careers. From what I can see, they have a great work ethic.

The concerns I see among young people are chiefly economic. They are worried about student loan debt and about the affordability of homes. Apart from that, they are doing fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 05:24AM by summer.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:29PM

People have become more self-centered, that is part of it too. They like the idea of physical pleasure, but not the responsibility of raising a child.

In most of the world, things are different. There is very little "3rd Wave Feminism" in most countries. In at least one of them, they have only just allowed women to drive.

"Young women are dating less because they aren't sending the right signals to young men. They are very busy, and appear very masculine. "

Speaking for myself... A lot of them indulge in hideous fashions - green and blue hair is not a good look, most look better without it - they are slaves to very narrow body image nonsense which leads on to anorexia etc... A lot of them drink and drug too much and wreck themselves - I know one girl who has aged herself by ten years within the space of two thanks to drugs. At 19 she was attractive, now she looks worn out thanks to rough living. That said, these have all been issues for a long time.

Also, on a very basic level, I want a woman to respond to my needs. Sure, I want to look after her needs, but it's a two way street. If she is self-absorbed, that's no good to me except on a physical level.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:33PM

> A lot of [women] indulge in
> hideous fashions - green and blue hair is not a
> good look, most look better without it - they are
> slaves to very narrow body image nonsense which
> leads on to anorexia etc... A lot of them drink
> and drug too much and wreck themselves - I know
> one girl who has aged herself by ten years within
> the space of two thanks to drugs. At 19 she was
> attractive, now she looks worn out thanks to rough
> living. That said, these have all been issues for
> a long time.

Yup. He wrote that.


------------
> Also, on a very basic level, I want a woman to
> respond to my needs.

Yup.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:41PM

Yarp, she wrote that.

It's not exactly rocket science. Romantic relationships require a) physical attraction and b) emotional connection that goes in both directions. Looking and acting like the Grouch on Sesame Street is not a good basis for either of these.

Even you, before you became a petrified pillar of salt, must have been something to Lot.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:42PM

Why would anyone who disapproves of your ideas want to shut you up?

I'm still waiting, in that other thread, for you to provide a single instance in which I have advocated censorship. Or are you running away from your accusation?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 06:45PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 11:40PM

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> "Young women are dating less because they aren't
> sending the right signals to young men. They are
> very busy, and appear very masculine. "
>


Are you serious?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 11:47PM

And don't forget this one:

"Also, on a very basic level, I want a woman to respond to my needs."

That probably does not include the masculine-looking ones.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 04:47AM

Top notch rationalization skills.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 04:46AM

“Also, on a very basic level, I want a woman to respond to my needs.”

Love isn’t something you get, it’s something you give. Otherwise you’re like that dipsh*t prophet who thinks God’s love is conditional.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:28AM

Jordan, I am in the business of educating young children, and I can tell you, there is no shortage of them. People are having kids! But they are having smaller families, not the 8, 10 or 12 kids of yesteryear.

As for the type of people you are describing, I think you may be hanging out with the wrong crowd.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 06:45PM

MacaRomney, I'll give my brother and is wife as an example. During their working lives, they were both professionals with advanced degrees.

My sister-in-law pursued her profession for a few years. By the time her second child came, it made less sense economically to work. This coincided with the rise of my brother's career when he was traveling extensively for his job. It made sense for my SIL to stay home, raise their children, and deal with the myriad of tasks and minor crises that happen on the home front when one spouse is frequently away.

Later, when their children entered school, my SIL re-entered the work force. She taught at a wonderful private school where her children could get free tuition (worth about 25K per child annually, on top of her income.) My brother's career had settled down by that point. He was not traveling as much. He loved having the second income.

Their story is similar to that of many nevermo professional families that I know. There is give and take. My experience is that as much as men love a home cooked meal, folded laundry, and a clean, tidy home, they also love an expanded family income almost equally. That expanded income buys a lot of dinners out, travel, hobbies, etc.

A friend of mine from college was a high-performing Wall Street professional. So was his wife. She earned more money than he did, and at first he struggled with that. Eventually he made his peace with it. More money buys a lot of things that can console you.

Most nevermo men that I know of *want* a wife with a good income.

I know of some couples where the wife works, and the husband raises the kids. Who knew?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 06:47PM by summer.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:25PM

Ok, I get it now. You're just waking from a coma. How long has it been? What year did you go under? It's going to be rough but if you try, I'm sure you can catch up.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 07:10PM

It is rather obvious who isn't married and WHY.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:03PM

I know, right?

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Posted by: redskittle ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:05PM

I wonder who? (Besides me)

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:06PM

It's almost like we have a couple of full time bot impersonators here who basically want to make every thread divisive, uninformed and derailed.


~shrug~


Lot's Wife, you are a saint, and a very patient saint at that.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:34PM

Thanks, Dagny.

I really don't mind this sort of thing. There are times when it gets on my nerves, but there is value in the process of examining and critiquing ideas. It's far better than letting the stuff continue to fester in dark corners.

What I do mind, truly mind, is when people assert that intellect, reason, analysis, and sources are not relevant to the search for truth. Those champions of ignorance, the ones who prefer that their own prejudices go unquestioned, are the ones who are a real threat to liberty.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:36PM

Amen

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 04:44AM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's almost like we have a couple of full time bot
> impersonators here

Why is it certain people believe that individuals' opinions they don't agree with must be "bots"? I'm surprises you're not accusing me of being an evil Russian. Я не понима́ю! We're no longer in Soviet times, they lost...

Usually when people start talking about bots, it is followed by an appeal to censorship and how innocent people must be protected from the cybernetic Tartar hordes.

> who basically want to make
> every thread divisive, uninformed and derailed.

Like Lot's Wife? I've discussed a lot of things, and she introduces derailment on a regular basis. Often starts using far left mantras to try and make the point. To use an old cliché, "it takes two to tango", and seeing as it does, I'm far from the only one who does that. (And to be fair it isn't just Mrs Lot who does it either, there are several others.)

By the way, don't you take your name from a badly written Ayn Rand novel? (Atlas Shrugged is a bit of "a loose baggy monster" to use Henry James' phrase.) Aren't you a bit too much to the port of starboard for the ole Objectivism?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 10:41AM

No, my views do not align with Rand for over a decade now. There are still a few qualities I admire, as with most characters and authors. Thanks for noticing.

Now, back to your bot-like activities....

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 04:30AM

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is rather obvious who isn't married and WHY.

Someone swallowed the LDS pill, right? Maybe I should have got married at 18 (or after a mission), had ten or more children, and gone bankrupt and divorced by my mid thirties. The LDS are obsessed with marriage.

Let's just say it's to do with divorce. I have had plenty of successful relationships, and lived with women for years on end. I've never been interested in marrying any of them, and never asked the question. I'm in a comfortable relationship just now, we live in separate houses, meet and text regularly, and I enjoy her company.

However, for me to get married, I'd have to be a COMPLETE SUCKER. At least half the men I know who've done so have been taken to the cleaners by their ex-wives, and have made their lawyers fat and rich. Oh and the women always get the kids too. That's because divorce courts are run by sexists, who think men are always the guilty ones.

So, I'm glad I am where I am. I get all the happiness a good relationship can bring, without the potential of losing the shirt off my back, if and when it ends. As for marriage, thanks, but no thanks. I'm no one's sucker.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:01AM

Maybe MGTOW is part of the zeitgeist. Gaia’s response to the environmental devastation caused by humans. Hey, as long as you’re happy. There must be women out there who are trying to “give back” as in Tevai’s post above. They’re not all shallow gold diggers.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:25AM

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe MGTOW is part of the zeitgeist. Gaia’s
> response to the environmental devastation caused
> by humans. Hey, as long as you’re happy.

I'm aware of MGTOW, but don't consider myself part of that movement or participate in it. A bit nerdy for me. But it's nothing to do with Gaia, and more to do with social destabilization. Some of those MGTOW guys would have been unlikely to marry in past centuries as well.

I could have been married two, maybe three, times. God knows that when I was in the LDS, some of the women were desperate to marry young. Too desperate. I don't get myself engaged by the end of the third date!

Besides, while population is falling off in developed countries, it's still growing at a terrifying rate in some other parts of the world. (I was reading recently about a widow in a third world country with over twenty children - you just have to ask how these children can be provided for financially, emotionally etc by her.)

As for children, I am highly concerned by the way the world is going. Politically, economically, environmentally. If global warming doesn't get them, a police state will. The outlook right now is not great. I hope it will change.

There
> must be women out there who are trying to “give
> back” as in Tevai’s post above. They’re not
> all shallow gold diggers.

No, they aren't, and I don't believe that they are. My mother was never like that to my father and they were very loyal to each other (as far as I know, anyway). But my father's first wife WAS a gold digger. She crucified him. I don't know the full story of course, but I know from multiple sources that she pretty much bankrupted him, and made him homeless. It was a tragedy as he was a self-made man and had grown up in poverty.

I'm well aware that in the past that women have been victims in marriage as well. But the current marriage set up is anti-male. I have to fight for my own interests. If I get married and get divorced, it's highly likely that I will end up as my father did.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 11:18AM

> I could have been married two, maybe three, times.
> God knows that when I was in the LDS, some of the
> women were desperate to marry young. Too
> desperate. I don't get myself engaged by the end
> of the third date!

Yes, several times before you have regaled us with tales of all those women whom you've left in sheer joy over the decades. You must feel like that teenage boy in those Axe Body Spray commercials.

I'm just glad you've been able to keep your head and avoid falling prey to all those predatory females out there seeking to steal your money and drain your precious bodily fluids.

It's a tough life.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 03:01PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You must feel like that
> teenage boy in those Axe Body Spray commercials.
>
>
>


I took a sip of water as I was reading this, which was a major mistake, as I spat it all over a counter. LOLOL.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 06:47PM

Do I really need to point out to you how easy it is to get married in the LDS? By the time certain reach thirty, they'll just about marry any church member going. They think eighteen is old enough and thirty is ancient.

Getting married in the LDS isn't hard. Staying married and finding a suitable person to marry is the challenge.

And a lot of LDS YSA get engaged really quickly. I know one couple who had barely been out three months before marrying. They got engaged after something like a week. You think I'm exaggerating about the third date, but that's how some operate.

In my YSA, there were very few men, so a lot of the women were under heavy pressure by the leadership to date and marry. As, by the way, was I. I was constantly asked why I didn't want to date certain women im YSA by home teachers and leaders - I couldn't just say I wasn't interested in them, because it would have been rude and hurtful. Maybe it was the same for them, they weren't really much interested in me but were being pushed towards me...

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 06:52PM

in some cases, but in TBMland it rarely gets far before you tie the knot.

Yes, I have seen the film.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:40AM

>>At least half the men I know who've done so have been taken to the cleaners by their ex-wives, and have made their lawyers fat and rich. Oh and the women always get the kids too.

Where I live most men get joint custody. That looks like different things depending on the family. One of my students spends one week with mom, one week with dad. They switch on Fridays.

And when women earn good incomes or have a history of earning good incomes, it is difficult for a man to get "taken to the cleaners." Where I live, alimony is usually five years or less, and that's assuming it's awarded at all.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 06:06AM

Maybe I need to move to your neck of the woods. Joint custody seems to be extremely uncommon round here.

"Where I live, alimony is usually five years or less, and that's assuming it's awarded at all."

I have an ex-LDS friend who is going through a divorce. She's going after his pension money right now, which he isn't due to receive himself for at least twenty years, by which time all of his children will be well into adulthood. He's been suicidal as a result of all this. No idea whether the pension thing is legal, but it hasn't stopped her trying.

"And when women earn good incomes or have a history of earning good incomes, it is difficult for a man to get "taken to the cleaners.""

I wish you'd tell that to the various celebrity divorcees. Some of the women had good money beforehand but still take the men for all they've got, particularly when their career is on the slide, or when their most successful years are behind them.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 09:09PM

Hey y'all, I'm back. And so far in this thread I've learned that the biggest problem for women is feminism, And Jordan, the least satisfied person on the planet with the performance of pretty much everyone, deigns to mansplain why so many young people are unhappy failures.

I spent half my adult life teaching 20-something college students. I was pretty impressed. I no doubt lack the proper amount of sophisticated contempt.

Carry on. I have a lot of reading to do to catch up on the last month. (I did glimpse RFM from time to time while traveling) Looks to be painful but entertaining.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 09:16PM

I hope you had a great time sailing!

I'm sort of jealous except for the fact I get seasick easily and burn if I even think about the sun.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 11:54PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey y'all, I'm back. And so far in this thread
> I've learned that the biggest problem for women is
> feminism, And Jordan, the least satisfied person
> on the planet with the performance of pretty much
> everyone, deigns to mansplain why so many young
> people are unhappy failures.
>
> I spent half my adult life teaching 20-something
> college students. I was pretty impressed. I no
> doubt lack the proper amount of sophisticated
> contempt.
>
> Carry on. I have a lot of reading to do to catch
> up on the last month. (I did glimpse RFM from time
> to time while traveling) Looks to be painful but
> entertaining.

Do we know what qualifies as "young" by Jordan's standards? I'm 34 and my wife is 31. Perhaps we're not doing things as we should be, because we're neither unhappy nor failures by the standards of anyone other than posibly TCOJCOLDS.

On the other hand, if my wife and I are already obsolete, Jordan could consider the eight nieces and nephews of mine who have reached adulthood. Two nieces are 19 and are college sophomores and unmarried: verdicts on them have yet to be reached. One nephew is 25, married to a pharmacist, and is in his final year of medical school. Two more - one of each gender - are 24, are finishing their internships/1st years of residency as physicians and are sill single but dating (other people, not each other - we're not Kingstons or part of Warren's clan) when their schedules permit. Anyone who has ever fulfilled a medical internship knows how brutal the schedule is. My other nieces and nephews are still kids.

I realize we're just one family, but where are the unhappy failures, Jordan? Can you mansplain it to me?

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 04:19AM

"Mansplain" - another shibboleth of po-mo indoctrination. The funny thing is that women "explain" far more than men ever do, but we're not allowed to talk about that, are we?

Once again, to fight sexism, the supposed progressives stoop to sexist terminology in order to do so.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:15AM

That’s a nice complement, but how do you know they’re progressives?

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 13, 2019 05:26AM

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That’s a nice complement, but how do you know
> they’re progressives?

I agree. Calling that viewpoint progressive, or indeed liberal, is inaccurate labeling.

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