Due to highly unusual circumstances, I found myself at a sacrament meeting yesterday. The talks were just as boring as I can remember but ... one mother spiced hers up a bit by mentioning some kind of agreement she had made with her husband early on in their marriage to divulge to the other any time they were being influenced by Satan. The practice was to acknowledge that this was happening and reveal it to the other spouse. She seemed to have the usual "general authority" quotes to back up her position.

The bottom line from my experience is that these people, in general, are not real, just pretending. They have put on a shell to present to the world but seem so empty and hallow inside. It all looks good but there is no there there?

That’s what it looks like from the outside, but since they are totally “bought in” they will do anything to justify their investment. So they bend their thinking to fit the situation. Call it mental origami.

Ah, the old "the devil made me do it" cop out. They might call it being influenced by Satan, but it's really just their self-serving side at work. It's easier to feel good about yourself if you can blame an external force rather than admit there are things about you that run contrary to your self-image as a good person who would never want to do bad things.

Exactly.
Satan is a scapegoat to blame instead of taking responsibility yourself.

That sounds so creepy on the surface. Instead of keeping the focus on more uplifting and wholesome thoughts, maybe she's trying to get her husband to talk dirty.

That being said, Utah is a magnet for Satanic cult activity. So I'm undecided what direction this woman is heading in her spiritual walk.

Former Mormons have joined ranks with Satanists in Utah. I don't know what the is current numbers are. But I do know It's an active cult there, and the antithesis of Mormonism.

About 8-9 of my late brother's adopted children came from abusive neglectful homes in Utah where the parents were not only unfit, they were devil worshipers in addition to drug dealing, pimping, etc. (And former Mormons.) My bro told me Satanism is endemic in Utah. It was when I lived there as a teenager in the 1970's. It hasn't gotten a whole lot better since then. Ogden and Salt Lake City were hot beds in the 70's. I don't know where is today other than it's still prevalent.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2019 01:04PM by Amyjo.

I would be interested to see any sources you have on this Utah satanism phenomenon. A lot of people on this board lived for long periods of time, or permanently, in Utah and have never expressed such sentiments. You may be right that there is more of it in Utah than elsewhere, but if you are there will be objective evidence.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would be interested to see any sources you have
> on this Utah satanism phenomenon. A lot of people
> on this board lived for long periods of time, or
> permanently, in Utah and have never expressed such
> sentiments. You may be right that there is more
> of it in Utah than elsewhere, but if you are there
> will be objective evidence.

There is no evidence of widespread networks of Satanic cultists operating covertly or across multiple generations, in Utah or otherwise. None.

There have been a few isolated cult-ish groups with Satanic elements overtones who committed murders and/or torture and/or sex crimes.

In some cases they were dabblers who used Satan as a prop to shock or were so drug addled it's hard to know anything about motive (Ricky Kasso). In other cases there was apparently a more serious commitment to Satanism as a philosophy or lifestyle by some violent psychopaths (Eddie Lee Sexton in Ohio, the Chicago Ripper Crew, the Beasts of Satan in Italy).

There might have been a few of these crimes or groups in Utah, but I'm not aware of any disproportionate numbers. And I'm a true crime buff who's read quite a lot on this subject. A quick look at Google scholar and Google books finds very little. Frank Moorhouse's Satanic Killers appears to be lurid but at least semi-trustworthy based on the footnotes/citations. The book has chapters on a number of Satanic criminals (Noco Claux, Daniel Ruda) ...but the book has nothing about Satanic crime in Utah.

I Googled Satanists in Utah and was completely underwhelmed, on a guttural level.

https://www.google.com/search?q=satanists+in+utah&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS760US760&oq=Satanists+in+Utah&aqs=chrome.0.0.14252j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Ha ha ha! Good one.

My father alleged that I imported Satan into his sacrosanct Mormon household. Satan cleverly had me introduce him through means of hairstyles, rock and roll music, and--gasp--the marijuanas. For these sins I was excluded from the inheritance of his sizable estate. This proved he was right about me. My father's last act before dying was proving to his sons that he was right by disowning them. Some patriarch, right? The fact is that Mormonism was an excuse for his inability to raise a son. He failed three times at that, which was every time.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I Googled Satanists in Utah and was completely
> underwhelmed, on a guttural level.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=satanists+in+utah&;
> rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS760US760&oq=Satanists+in+Utah&aqs=
> chrome.0.0.14252j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


I know you're reading my lips right now and you know what I'm doing... Yes. I'm doing just what you think I am . Mi amor.

Disclaimer for the hard of thinking: this is not posted as endorsement of this story, it is posted for reference to some of wilder stories out there.

p.s. Google is not a good guide to anything. It doctors search results big time.

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/lds/ldsritualabuse.shtml

"I started being taken to the most secret rites in the LDS Temple at 20 years of age. The regular patrons go through the front door and have to have a temple recommend. They wear white clothes for their ceremonies, but I went through a tunnel under the street that trucks can go through and up to a loading dock. From that point on I don't know where I went except that the room that I was taken to was called the Pink Room. When I started having memories I cried because I had been to the Pink Room and didn't even know what I was saying.

"I saw several of the general authorities dressed in black worshipping Lucifer in what is called True Order of Prayer which is a ritual form of going through all the sign and tokens and penalties that are in the regular temple ceremonies similar to the Masons. (utlm.org has a book about the ceremonies that go on in the regular part of the Temple). The room was built by Pres. Wilford Woodruff for the blood atonement room (utlm.org has information about this also) and the sacrifice room. I remember President Benson being tied to a chair and gagged and told that he would participate or watch. After the sacrifice that I don't remember he still would not participate and so he was put in a white bag like a laundry bag and we all beat him. He never spoke again."

Debunked by Steve Benson multiple times.
For example:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1970305,1970305#msg-1970305

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,951716,952319#msg-952319

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,822628,822676#msg-822676

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Debunked by Steve Benson multiple times.
> For example:
>
> https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1970305
> ,1970305#msg-1970305
>
> https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,951716,
> 952319#msg-952319
>
> https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,822628,
> 822676#msg-822676

I'm surprised you haven't dragged in Snopes for good measure. :) There are several tics in this wild account which don't strike me as coming from a former Mormon - LDS use "Sunday School" for adult classes, for example. We would say "primary" for the children's classes, while most other churches would call them "sunday school". An easy mistake to make.

You are quite wrong tho.

Sunday school for children existed for decades, SS and primary were two different meetings in the time period for all older members and former members.

You need to learn more about recent Mormon history. Like maybe ask someone over 45. ;-)

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utah is a magnet for Satanic cult
> activity.

You have nailed that one Amy.

And I'm sure you have perused research such as the following, which seems to have fallen on deaf ears:

"ELDER GLENN L. PACE: 1990 MEMO

On 19 July 1990, Elder Glenn L Pace, then a counselor in the Presiding Bishopric, sent a memo to the "Strengthening Church Members Committee" on the subject of "Ritualistic Child Abuse."1



Pursuant to the Committee’s request, I am writing this memorandum to pass along what I have learned about ritualistic child abuse. Hopefully, it will be of some value to you as you continue to monitor the problem.

You have already received the LDS Social Services report on Satanism dated May 24, 1989, a report from Brent Ward, [Utah State Attorney General] and a memorandum from myself dated October 20,1989 in response to Brother Ward’s report.

Therefore, I will limit this writing to information not contained in those papers.

I have met with sixty victims. That number could be twice or three times as many if I did not discipline myself to only one meeting per week. I have not wanted my involvement with this issue to become a handicap in fulfilling my assigned responsibilities. On the other hand, I felt someone needed to pay the price to obtain an intellectual and spiritual conviction as to the seriousness of this problem within the Church.

Of the sixty victims with whom I have met, fifty-three are female and seven are male. Eight are children. The abuse occurred in the following places: Utah (37), Idaho (3), California (4), Mexico (2), and other places (14). Fifty-three victims are currently living in the State of Utah. All sixty individuals are members of the Church. Forty-five victims allege witnessing and/or participating in human sacrifice. The majority were abused by relatives, often their parents. All have developed psychological problems and most have been diagnosed as having multiple personality disorder or some other form of dissociative disorder".

Tales from the Dark Side seem to be true in our valleys.

Now I wasn't there, so I'm just reporting on what Los Interwebz pointed out to me:

Here's the opening paragraph the Pace Memo, on Wikipedia:

"The Pace memorandum was a 1990 memorandum written by Glenn L. Pace, a general authority in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), describing to a committee of the church the complaints of sixty members of the church that claimed they had been subjected to satanic ritual abuse (SRA) by family members and other members of the church. The state of Utah conducted a 30-month investigation of the claims after the Pace memorandum was leaked to the press in 1991, concluding that there was no evidence found to substantiate the testimony of the alleged victims."


Here's the wrap up:

"In 1991, the Utah State Legislature appropriated $250,000 for the Attorney General's office to investigate the RSA allegations in the state of Utah. Over a two and one half year span, the investigators interviewed hundreds of alleged victims, but none of the incidents reported were corroborated with any evidence beyond their testimony and the 1995 report stated that there was no evidence from any of the alleged victims that would warrant an investigation of homicide. Mike King, the coauthor of the report, told news media that the specific accusations against church leaders were "absurd", and Jerry Lazar, the head of psychiatry at LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City, said he 'has never been able to independently verify memories of satanic ritual abuse'."


Hey, maybe it all happened, and Satan was able to put one over on everyone, and he and his mormon minions are still partying in Midnight Satan's Quorum Meetings in ward buildings all over Utah. I sure have no personal evidence to the contrary.

But Pace was a General Authority--and an accountant! How can you suggest he might make a mistake about such a thing?

I asked for evidence, not discredited panic attacks.

Pace claimed that he had interviewed 60 people who had "recovered memories" of Satanism. 45 of those people claimed to have participated in, or at least witnessed, blood sacrifices. People also said the eight-year-old kids were baptized in blood. Who were the leaders of this satanism? The usual suspects: YM and YW leaders, bishops, stake presidents, a patriarch, temple workers, and musicians from the Tabernacle Choir--after all, somebody has to play the opening hymn.

If that sounds improbable, it's important to recall that Pace was a trained accountant who had worked for one of the big accountancies before moving into real estate investing. That and years as a GA, in which position he learned how to identify evil spirits, rendered him a uniquely qualified investigator.

And yet the subsequent state investigation found no credible evidence of any of the alleged incidents. There was no evidence of the events, no evidence of the participants, and no evidence of any bodies. That last was significant. If there were all those human sacrifices, where were the victims? Why didn't any families complain about the disappearances of loved ones? And no one ever found any evidence after the state investigation either. Pace's career in the church, not surprisingly, stalled. He ended up as head of the church-wide YM program.

So again, I'm asking if Amyjo or anyone else has evidence of satanism in Utah.

It smells like Satanic Panic.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Satanic_Panic

blueskyutah2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The bottom line from my experience is that these
> people, in general, are not real, just pretending.
> They have put on a shell to present to the world
> but seem so empty and hallow inside. It all looks
> good but there is no there there?

In their story of Korihor they acknowledge the devil. For Mormonism and their holiest book the devil is more real that God.

Motivated by only the devil religion is indeed a hallowed emptiness - perfect description of Mormonism. Empty temples full of dead people's names.

Of course they believe in Stan. They have to have someone to blame Mormons' failures, personal and institutional, on. Otherwise, they'd have to admit that Mormonism is a ridiculous, failed product.

As for Mormons switching to Satanism, sounds to me a lot like a 7 year old claiming "you can't tell me not to say damn. It's in the Bible!"

They are mostly doing it as a reliable way to get a rise out of people. Oooh, scary.

One of my TBM friends used to drive me nuts whenever I said something that she didn’t like. She’d say, “That’s the mortal you talking,” meaning the part of us that is easily influenced by the evil one. “I want to talk to the spiritual you,” which I guess would be the part of me that agreed with her.

I hated it when she would say that. It made me feel like what I said and how I felt was invalidated, because she’d just written it off as evil influence.

I think I finally got mad and said as much. She doesn’t do it anymore.

See this account of the report of a General Authority on the subject:

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/satanicritualabuseandmormonism_ub024.htm

The wife of one of my mormon cousins claimed she had been a victim of mormon satanic rituals in Idaho.

My friend told me that his extended family was involved in doing temple things in their homes which involved child abuse. He was abused and when he went through the temple was traumatized.

I don't think he is making it up and he never referenced Satan or Satanism in speaking of it.

MORmONS are very superstitious when it comes to this spirit stuff... when visiting my mom if I happened to pop in the horror on their faces... Satan incarnate just came in.... and was about to infect them all with my evil!

I’ve lived in Utah all of my life. When I was a senior in high school, there was talk about Satanism in Utah. One evening, the doorbell rang. Standing there were two FBI agents. They asked if we knew a couple of people who happened to be our neighbors back of us. The agents told us that they were wanted by the FBI on several charges and that they were also Satanists. We had no idea!

Forgive my question, but I'm under the impression that FBI investigators never tell random strangers what they are investigating. The notion that they would tell you that your neighbors were Satanists doesn't seem credible to me.

Are you sure?

There are organizations that pledge allegiance to Satan. So the neighbors who had been identified as Satanist didn't necessarily belong to a group that had anything to do with rituals involving bloodletting or death.

After, mormons are associated with their temples, but how many actually go?

> There are organizations that pledge allegiance to
> Satan. So the neighbors who had been identified
> as Satanist didn't necessarily belong to a group
> that had anything to do with rituals involving
> bloodletting or death.


Yeah, there are Goth kids in my neighborhood who listen to Black Sabbath and watch Game of Thrones, too. The only thing threatening about them is their skateboarding.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > There are organizations that pledge allegiance
> to
> > Satan. So the neighbors who had been
> identified
> > as Satanist didn't necessarily belong to a
> group
> > that had anything to do with rituals involving
> > bloodletting or death.
>
>
> Yeah, there are Goth kids in my neighborhood who
> listen to Black Sabbath and watch Game of Thrones,
> too. The only thing threatening about them is
> their skateboarding.

Black Sabbath is long out of fashion (and their crude sound comes from the fact their guitarist had lost some of his fingers).

A small percentage of these kide do get into Satanism. This kind of music works as a kind of recruitment tool for it, and so do horror films.

I would like to say that these kids are all "non-threatening", but that isn't the case. Some of them do go off the rails. Back in the Marilyn Manson days, we had one locally who ended up becoming a killer. I never knew him personally, but I know several people connected to him, including people who were in high school with him and a relative of the murder victim. He still requests satanist literature from his jail cell, and I am told he was into occultism long before the murder. (It was written off as the usual teen edginess by his teachers.) His victim had also gotten into Satanism, but she ended up dead. There is of course speculation that he sacrificed her.

So, no, it's not always harmless.

God you're pedestrian.

A crazy person commits murder and then requests a certain form of literature and you infer a causal relationship from the latter to the former.

Does that work with manga as well or does your logic only apply to boogeymen?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2019 03:01AM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God you're pedestrian.
>
> A crazy person commits murder and then requests a
> certain form of literature and you infer a causal
> relationship from the latter to the former.
>
> Does that work with manga as well or does your
> logic only apply to boogeymen?

In this case, you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. No pun intended. I happen to know people who went to school with him, relatives of his victim and even people working in the court at the time. Given that many different angles to work from, I have been able to build up a very good profile od him, even some of his inocuous traits.

The guy was, and is, a full blown satanist. When a teen comes out with this, there is usually a knowing wink between adults that this is probably a phase. In his case, it hasn't been

He has been assessed by law enforcement and is in jail, not a psychiatric unit. Personally I think he should be in permanent treatment, or executed, but they have not taken that viewpoint.

Satanism attracts a lot of very ill people, and it makes bad people worse because they presume it gives them powers and rights. I am aware of other killings by satanists in my locale. One was of a six year old girl. Most media made play of the fact that the girl's father was a drug dealer, but the boy who killed her left a trail of writings and messages talking about how he needed to kill to open a portal. Most of the papers stayed away fron that aspect to avoid scaring the public. Satanism may not have the numbers that some claim it did back in the 1980s but full on Satanism is out there and the Anton LaVey version is fluffy by comparison.

So do you have any peer reviewed studies showing that satanists commit more murders than other people?

You might. If you do, I'd love to see it.

So, am I more likely to die a victim of a Satanic drunk driver named Bonnie Tyler, or from a total eclipse of the heart?

I gotz ta know!

I see what you did there, you creature of the early Reagan era!

Well, if Jordan isn't going to make any sense, neither shall I!!

Now you are branching into Talking Heads territory.

"How was your day, dear?"

"Man, I tell ya, I was just being influenced by Satan all day long. Got a terrible headache now."

The was the MMartin preschool case in California, which I followed closely because the McMartins were Christian Scientists. After they tore the house down and dug the ground up, surprise! no secret rooms, no satanic paraphernalia, and no secret tunnels or underground chambers. And no evil clowns, I'm sure. In Massachusetts we had the Fells Acres Day Care case of organized child abuse; a Gerald Amirault spent most of his life in prison based on nothing more than "recovered memories."

People specialized in "recovered memories," and many families were torn apart as adult children were coached in what to say under the influence of hypnosis, powerful psychological "specialists," and the like. The period is a bad stain on the psychological profession, which failed horribly to investigate and respond to this evil nonsense. Lot's Wife nailed it, pointing out that the usual pattern was rich victim testimony and little to no physical evidence (with the occasional exception of amateur, usually teenage, practitioners).

It's also worth pointing out that New Age spirituality was very trendy during this period, and aberrant cult groups gained in legitimacy and membership. There's a current thread about J.Z. Night and others who "channel" spiritual beings.I remember Shirley Maclaine spouting this drivel to a very sympathetic and approving Oprah Winfrey. Also trending during this time was "past lives regression," associated with numerous gurus and groups, notably Scientology.

I'm a Christian, and do believe in evil and a transcendent entity often referred to as the Devil. But I don't believe in this bunk. The actual Satan doesn't need to manifest himself with people engaging in this cr*p.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2019 11:45PM by caffiend.

I believe there are some cases in which recovered memory techniques are useful: people who as children experienced horrors that they had to block, maybe veterans who have suppressed extreme trauma. But such efforts must be undertaken by extraordinarily well trained clinicians who know how to avoid the pitfalls of implanting ideas and memories, etc.

And none of the accusations that may arise from such work should be taken seriously if there is not extensive supporting evidence. The potential for Salem Witch Trial stuff with regard to either an innocent individual or a group of people is simply too great.

What the church did--sending out an accountant to investigate recovered memories about satanism in an atmosphere of national paranoia--is diametrically the wrong approach. It is fortunate that there were more dispassionate civil authorities who could double-check the absurd results of the Pace debacle.

Just because there is no proof of a particular activity doesn't mean that it's not happening!!

Seems perfectly fine to assume things not in evidence because it's an established fact that no one person knows everything! I say assume any fact you want until you can figure out for yourself whether it's true or not.

Why not shorten that procedure by just deciding what is real and then closing your eyes to any contradictory evidence?

You are too conservative, counselor!

There are more billable hours my way.

Well, that is the ultimate standard of truth!

You're right about the profusion of scares, Caffiend. We had them in the UK and France, too, as well as other European countries. In most cases, they were throughly investigated, too.

lease forgive me for not remembering any details, but then, who remembers details when NO evidence was ever found indicating that they had any basis in truth. Mental illness appeared to be the main source.

Tom in Paris

Does satan live in outer darkness ? And where did he get that great laugh ?

From playing Mormon Tabernacle Choir records backwards.

And I thought that was just ELO!

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From playing Mormon Tabernacle Choir records
> backwards.

I'm still trying to recover from laughing so hard.

My mission president was always hunting for satanic influences, like that ultra-heavy metal band: Enya. Yes, some credible missionary (to him at least) spun that tale. He was still hunting for elders listening to illegal music at the end of my mission.

I clearly remember listening to the agents; they didn’t say what the neighbors were wanted for but I thought at the time that it was odd that they would add that they were Satan worshippers.

Interesting. That sounds unprofessional of them.

Yes, that was strange for them to add that little bit of information. This was years ago, way before the internet. I don’t know why they felt like saying that to us; all it did was scare me.

You know I'm sure, that back in those days, FBI agents wore frilly dresses when they were off duty if they wanted to get ahead in the Bureau...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2019 01:20AM by elderolddog.

Well it worked for you, didn't it Mr. Tolson?

LUCIFER on Netflix
Just for the sake of discussion and some fun with the topic, let's assume there is a satan who rules over hell. Now, if anyone has watched the amazingly funny show Lucifer on Netflix,and IF there is a satan/lucifer etc ruling over hell, I believe that the character Lucifer is exactly how he would be. The show does a pretty good job with keeping with the usual story of God, heaven, hell, creation, bible stories etc and portray Lucifer as a confident being. Always tells the truth even about he actually being the devil,but earthly huamans of course just think he is weird, lying, crazy,or being metaphorical when he talks about it. In so many funny ways! He makes it clear that people on earth got it all wrong, that he does not cause or influence people to sin or commit crimes, do bad things, lie, have affairs, use drugs, steal, kill etc or influence them in any way. His character makes it known (as God believers claim to believe) that every person makes their own choices and have their own agency to make each and every choice in their life, Lucifer on the show is just the "watcher" over hell and punishes those people for the choices they made that sent them to hell in individualized punishments for each sinner cast to hell. (punishment fit the crime/lifestyle). He is punishing the people that chose their own trip to hell, he didn't make or influence any one who goes to hell to do any of the things that sent them there.
Now, like I said, just for the sake of making this topic a bit more interesting... I repeat...IF 'it' were all true then THAT is truly what I believe satan would be like. Not a bad person. Didn't obey dear ole "Dad" and got kicked out of the house (heaven) and sent to over see hell. Doesn't punish anyone on his vacation to earth or in hell who didn't bring it upon themselves.
Haven't seen it? Must see. So funny and love the way the write the show in staying close to the 'normal' bible stories but they make it hilarious and nearly proves without even im sure intending to, that the whole heaven, hell, satan, god. blah blah is all just that blah and not really true.
Sorry post was so long, just thought the show really does give a perfect view on the idiocracies of the bible story and God's plan but he never talks to anyone, answers prayers, and is basically an absentee father... ironically how "he" really is to all those believers!!! haha. hope you enjoyed. Haven't been on this site for while.

I've often thought that Mormons attribute more power to Satan than God.

Satan is always trying to reach out, but the Holy Ghost is playing hard to get--offended by your music, your movies, your hairstyle etc.