The Utah Law states that "In God We Trust" must be displayed in "one or more" locations in the school.

I'm now an atheist and am wondering if anyone knows if I have to display it in my own classroom? There is already a framed picture/poster/sign hung in every classroom in the building - including mine. Does that fulfill the law? It doesn't say "at least one or more" nor does it say "all". I want to take it down (mostly because every time I see it I cringe and get a little angry inside).

I'd love to hear your thoughts and if anyone can decipher the legal language used in this law.

>> The Utah Law states that "In God We Trust" must be displayed in "one or more" locations in the school.

Display it in the restrooms.

Take it down and see what happens!

I would be surprised if it had to be in every classroom too.

Here's two fun ideas:

Put up a sign with In God We Trust and surround it with pictures of various gods from mythology. Ask the kids which god they would like to trust.

Put up a framed picture of a $1 bill. It displays the phrase but you could explain it represents that teachers are not paid enough. Or explain that it represents working hard for a reward.


The more I think about this, the more pissed I am that this is required, I presume, in public schools?

Are people so insecure in their God-fetish they can't let kids go 8 hours without it? Do they not think people can be good without reminding them about God in their face all the time? I've got news for them. If they need God to be good, they are already bad people.

I am with you 100% on this one!

https://www.acluutah.org/legislation/legislative-work/item/773-in-god-we-trust-in-our-classrooms

According to this link:

"Several courts have addressed the use of the 'In God We Trust' motto in non-education environments and all have said it serves a secular purpose and its use does not violate the Constitution. The phrase is so widely used that it has lost its religious significance."

If "In God We Trust" has lost its religious significance, what significance does it now have such that it should be posted at all, anywhere? And who is the "we" this statement is supposedly speaking for? The teacher? And what is the reference of the word "trust?" and, what does "God" then mean after it is supposedly stripped of religious significance?

The mere fact that right-wing fundamentalists and Mormons keep wanting it posted in as many places as possible makes it ludicrous on its face to suggest that it has lost religious meaning. I think it should be challenged. NOW!

I like your suggestions. Here is another one:

Post right next to 'In God We Trust' the statement by Thomas Paine, "Belief in a cruel God creates a cruel man." (The Age of Reason) Then, if someone complains, just say, "What's the Problem, after all 'God' has lost all religious significance.

It’s a relic of the Cold War. This phrase was first used on paper money in 1957. We had to paint the USSR as godless heathens because capitalism needed to seem morally superior to socialism. But the joke was on us, since the Russian Orthodox Church is now more Christian than the U.S. megachurches or Buddy Christ Catholicism.

And ironically, only a few years earlier, in 1953, that great atheist boogeyman, former seminary student Joseph Stalin was given, per his own wishes, a Russian Orthodox funeral headed by the highest leaders of the Russian Orthodox church...

$1 bill.

Next level genius.

You're not the hero we deserve, Dagny, but you sure are the one we need.

Dagny is pretty good, my friend. Her judgment is consistently solid, as is her empathy for others.

Trust me. Even I know I'm more of a nuisance than a hero, but thanks for the kind words!

dagny Wrote:
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>
> Put up a framed picture of a $1 bill. It displays
> the phrase but you could explain it represents
> that teachers are not paid enough.

teachers are not underpaid.


nationwide the median salary for individual teachers, is higher than the median salary for households. look at data from IRS and BLS

I know Utah teachers with masters who retired at 52, entitled to 60-70% of their $70k salaries for the rest of their natural lives. then they move to an Idaho border town to be close to Utah family, work another 10-15 years and get another taxpayer guaranteed pension. they'll get a very comfortable income in retirement ... without saving a dime of their own money into a 401k. it's a racket, and we're all supposed to pay the bill and echo 'teachers are underpaid'.

I swear that the NEA must have a full-time office devoted to pumping out misinformation about teacher salaries to explain this relentless 'teachers are underpaid' nonsense.

I value teachers more than celebrities and most people who make millions for that matter. I feel we need the best and brightest in the classrooms before our students fall further behind.

We have a lot of excellent teachers but they do not make a fraction of what someone who dribbles a ball might make. Many teachers I know have paid out of pocket for many of their classroom supplies.

We all have our opinions about what is important. If I want the best people in classrooms, I would expect the career to compete with others by offering good compensation.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd like to see tenure ratcheted back so poor performers can be removed more easily, but the ones who remain deserve to be paid according to the value they deliver to society in the form of mathematically and scientifically competent citizens who understand civics and have been introduced to what history and literature have to say about ethics.

The future is brightest for countries with well-educated citizenries. That requires investment.

"When regarding pay, Utah Foundation's report revealed that teachers do tend to make less than people in the private sector, while teacher retirement benefits tend to be more generous. This compensation mix affects schools' recruitment and retention strategies, according to Utah Foundation."

https://kutv.com/news/local/new-report-compares-teacher-retirement-in-utah-and-neighboring-states

This is a good, current article. Utah is not exactly known for paying its teachers well, so perhaps the state makes up for it on the teacher pensions.

From another article on Utah teacher pensions --

"For example, if you worked a total of 35 years with an average salary of $65,000, your final benefit would be $34,125 annually or $2,843.75 monthly."

https://www.teaching-certification.com/salaries-benefits/utah-teaching-salaries-and-benefits.html

I personally consider that to be an entirely reasonable payout for 35 years of employment. By "average" I'm guessing that they mean the average of the last few years of employment, which is how teacher pensions are generally calculated.

In my school district, I match what my district pays into my pension. It is not free money, but rather more like a private employer matching an employee's 401K contribution. My payout will be modest, but the newer teachers IMO are really getting a bad deal.

Unfortunately, It looks like it does have to be displayed in every school building and it's pretty clear (see eta below):

"Public schools shall display 'In God we trust,' which is declared in 36 U.S.C. 302 to be the national motto of the United States, in one or more prominent places within each school building."
- https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title53G/Chapter10/53G-10-S302.html

Based on the wording at that site, there are no requirements for size, location, font, etc. If it's already posted as you say, you're "OK".

I get wanting to take it down, not only is it not a very good motto, it's obviously not very inclusive. "We" do not all trust "in God", so the motto of the US does not actually cover all of the US.

eta, now that I re-read it (I just skimmed the first time). It looks like it just has to be displayed "within each school building". So you can probably take it down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2019 06:25PM by Finally Free!.

Yeah, the rules seem to permit teachers to take theirs down. All that is necessary is a couple inside the school and surely that does not require every teacher to acquiesce.

orangejuice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I'd love to hear your thoughts and if anyone can
> decipher the legal language used in this law.

Multiple lawsuits upheld the use of In God We Trust by government agencies as Constitutional

the most critical case is Aaronow vs. US (1970) which challenged In God We Trust on US money. The ruling stated:

>it is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.

so there ya go. maybe put up a portrait of Almighty Atheismo from Futurama.

Thanks for your ideas and insights.
This is in a public school. In my classroom, this poster is really just for the adults because none of my students are old enough to read (Pre-K). Many don't even talk. It's not influencing them in any way (good or bad). It just irritates me. I tried to move a filing cabinet in front of it but it wasn't tall enough to cover all of it so it was pretty obvious I was offending god and his minions.

I think I will take it down. Perhaps the frame could "accidentally" be knocked off the wall by a stray bouncy ball and I'll have to throw it away for safety reasons. Can't have broken glass around the youngsters now, can we?

If I taught science, history, or language arts, I would definitely go with the many versions of god surrounding it, including the god of money! Can you imagine the higher order thinking skills and abstract thought process development my students would gain!? Every teacher's dream!

Let us know, please, if you get any reaction from the authorities.

Yeah, a little "accident" just might happen!

Now I'm even more pissed that even pre-K kids are expected to start seeing that so early.

I would put a photo of my cat above the poster. Let administrators draw their own conclusions. lol

Accident...probably no problem.

Posting different Greek Deities around it and mocking such a statement in a state full of highly devoted individuals to a religion that upholds such...

Sounds like a GREAT WAY to get fired very quickly for trying to push personal beliefs on young children.

If I were a history or science individual...I'd probably leave that idea FAAAAR away...

Much easier to have something accidentally hit it or it breaks or even you just take it down that run some sort of situation like that.

If you are teacher you have undoubtably heard of many situations where teachers did similar things (both pushing their Christianity on kids or otherwise) and things did not turn out well.

Unless someone wants to run a test case against the government which could go for years...I'd say mocking it or trying to teach an atheistic view to kids (and the younger probably the worse response) in a location heavily populated by families which would not take kindly to it...

Not the brightest idea.

All others pay cash.

Headline : "The United States still spends 10 times as much on fossil fuel subsidies as they do on education"

Are you insinuating that teachers are more valuable to society than dead dinosaurs?

Going out on a limb, methinks.

I wonder what the people who made that rule would think about this:

"How would you feel if the dollar bill said 'There Is No God' and the Pledge of Allegiance proclaimed that we are 'one nation under no God whatsoever'? How would you like it if your kids were forced to say that every day before class?" You wouldn't.

I copied this from Twitter (Shermer posted it. He sometimes says things that drive a point home. Yes, I'm sure there are many things about him people don't like, but please consider the message and not the messenger.)

The thing that bothers me about this topic is that the people who want God on everything are incapable or unwilling to see what would happen if they were not the majority and people acted like them. I hope if atheists were the majority, they would not be jerks to put NO GODS on everything. The reasonable thing is to just leave it off so no one has to go against their beliefs.

They just can't seem to comprehend what it would be like if the shoe were on the other foot.

Although I firmly disagree with your hope that, if reversed atheists would refrain from such behaviours (people are people), I thoroughly agree with this, Dagny, this reversing of the situation in order to expose the, to say the least, unreasonableness of the idea behind the law.

I’m very bothered by this, too.

It’s one thing to leave the dollar bill alone; it’s quite another to create laws requiring “In God We Trust” in public schools, of all places.

Your thoughts and insights in this thread are great and right on. (Even the Shermer quote. :)) Thanks.

Exactly!

'In God we Trust'; all others pay cash, no personal checks!

If you really want to be a butt about this, epoxy quarters in the urinals.

Quarters have the necessary wording and about half the schools population will see it at least once a day.

What one does in the women's restrooms is up to someone else to figure out.

I think I could compromise with the phrase. Make it god. That way it is open to any one. "In god We Trust" or the thing that guides our direction in life, be it self, thing, or other.