This isn't a critique of this forum, although there are definitely some people here who are guilty of this.

I've observed a recent trend online toward a more optimistic outlook on things, and it's been really jarring because I didn't realize just how nihilistic and pessimistic the general mood of the world had been getting.

Now that I'm seeing more and more content creators focusing on positive messages and recognizing, and celebrating, the basic self-evident fact that there's never been a better time to be alive in human history, I'm becoming more sensitive to the negative / pessimistic vibe.

Even on this forum I see examples of people trying to paint things in a bad light. One poster is constantly posting threads trying to paint christians as crazy, citing ridiculous anecdotes that don't at all represent the christian community.

I'm not christian, but when I see a thread on RfM about some crazy pastor giving their opinion on the implications of meatless burgers or something, I wonder: does anyone reading this actually think cristians believe this stuff? And also, I wonder if the person posting that stuff is ok.

look up the concept of 'Negativity bias'. many people are always looking for something to complain about.

some ex-mos are preoccupied with the church in the same way that some divorcees are preoccupied with an ex-spouse. 20 years later, they're still griping about that no good SOB who done them wrong. they just can't get over it. they hold bitterness and anger close to their hearts, like a precious gift that gives meaning to their lives.

there can be a lot to criticize about LDS Inc. a dose of anger can appropriate after realizing you've been lied to or misled by an organization that you once loved and trusted. but the LDS church is hardly the root of all evil that some ex-mos seem to believe.

there were people on the reddit section for ex-mos who were actually disappointed or skeptical about the recent research linking high altitude with depression. they were 100% convinced that the LDS church was to blame for the above-average rates of depression in Utah and surrounding states. when medical science contradicted their pre-conceptions, many of them seemed to have cognitive dissonance.they could not accept the facts. ironic how it was similar to the mental distress TBMs feel when confronted with data that contradicts their feelings.

Jordan, this is no more true when you posted it the other day.


----------------
Your assertion:

> Utah's high depression rate has less to do with
> Mormonism, and more to do with high altitude.

The data is mixed. What you are describing is not patterns of depression but suicide, which may be related to altitude.


----------------
Your assertion:

> Other mountain states have similar per-capita high
> rates of depression, something about the altitude
> can mess up serotonin levels.

Not true. With regard to mental illness, depression, and anti-depressive mediation, Utah is off the charts--and other high-altitude states are not in the same league.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjy7JDm6_HiAhUSKH0KHYUADU4Qjhx6BAgBEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldextra.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Futah-has-highest-rate-of-mental-illness-in-us%2Farticle_053ef820-584d-5930-953e-c75548be7c5c.html&psig=AOvVaw1hfNu10aAwkKALyB8Oagd_&ust=1560906428724198

Indeed, the Mountain West as a region uses the second least anti-depressions in the country. Yet Utah is the highest state of all, so altitude is not the answer.

https://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/documents/s19032en/s19032en.pdf

The theory that altitude causes depression is far from proved. Utah is an exceptionally troubled place, more troubled than other high-altitude states.


------------
> Hard for some ex-mos to accept that LDSinc is not
> the root of all evil and all problems.

Hard for some ex-mos to analyze data and realize that there are multiple competing explanations for Utah's nation-high rate of depression and anti-depressives. Easier for those ex-mos to fasten on one datum and refuse to look at the broader picture or other sources of data.

Wait a second now!

What if...what if every time incorrect data is repeated, it comes a little bit closer to being the truth?

The was a European nation which made gigantic steps in this direction! And where would the alternative 'health products' market be without clever copywriting?

You put your finger on a great political truth.

If you have power and stake out an extreme position, without regard to facts, and then keep repeating it, people will start to think the truth is midway between the old consensus and your new one. Voila, you move entire countries in your direction merely by enhancing outlandish falsehoods with a moderate advertising budget.

It works on bulletin boards, too--as long as you leave the pets alone.

It's amazing the correlation between those why decry propaganda the loudest and those who dispense it the most.

I giggle when in my mind, I switch out 'most' and replace it with 'moats. It's one of my favorite psychosises.

Most are just glad you didn't switch it out with moist.

Most moats hate moist the most.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2019 09:55PM by Devoted Exmo.

> It's amazing the correlation between those why
> decry propaganda the loudest and those who
> dispense it the most.

To be a victim, one must continually call out "I'm a victim! I'm a victim!"

How else would anyone know?

Having been a victim of unspeakable crimes, pain and torture, and fear--

--I will forever object when someone blames the victim.

I object!

First walk in a (real) victim's shoes, then make flip remarks, like "How else would anyone know?"

I doubt if a tiny baby, or even a toddler would put words of labels to the abuse that is happening to her. In the real world, anyone who is smaller and helpless is a potential victim. A baby is smaller than her big brother. A little wife is smaller than her linebacker husband. Big fish eat little fish. Life and nature are brutal.

God! If I hear "A victim is asking for it" one more time...

I'm logging off this board right now...good night.

Exminion,

Our comments are not directed at real victims. They are aimed at those who claim victimhood while sitting in the lap of privilege. That is why I said that such people need to shout it from the mountaintops: because such behavior represents their only hope of achieving public recognition of the status they covet.

So please don't think we are discussing people who have been through what you describe. I, and I am confident others, sympathize--or empathize--fully with you.

LW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2019 02:39AM by Lot's Wife.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait a second now!
>
> What if...what if every time incorrect data is
> repeated, it comes a little bit closer to being
> the truth?
>
> The was a European nation which made gigantic
> steps in this direction!

The USSR and its Five Year Plans.

I didn't write this. It's not even in my frickin' writing style. I don't use phrases like LDS Inc or SOB. I've got my own ideas. See below.

I notice your sock puppet Mangy Mutt immediately turns up as well.

Think of it like a divorce. You may have a decent reason for your divorce, but when you get divorced you end up wondering why you were ever married to the other person. You also tend to forget the better aspects of that person that had you hooking up with them in the first place.

If life in the LDS was 100% horrible, 100% of the time, even fewer people would attend or stay.

To be honest, there were some things I have enjoyed in the church, but you're not supposed to talk about the church in that way here. I enjoyed a lot of the social life, for example. As for the hymns, some are awful but some also have great tunes. (Not so sure about the dumbing down of the hymn tunes though.)

TSCC is one crazy bitch.

> I didn't write this.
> It's not even in my frickin'
> writing style.

You changed your style marginally when I first noted your use of HWint, who has incidentally not denied the identity. Perhaps you should tell him to protest his innocence. Protest, I say.

Yet unfortunately in the "weird people" thread, Hwint reverts to his/your normal style and his/your usual preoccupations. Thus you and he speak of "Christian socialism," "social-justice billionaires," and "liberation theology." No one else writes in such pat political phrases.


-----------
> I've got my own ideas.

Yes, Jordan, you have your own ideas. And if you have multiple internet personae, sometimes you can even express them twice in a single thread!


---------
> I notice your sock puppet Mangy Mutt immediately
> turns up as well.

Deflection, as usual.

But in any case you have it backwards. As someone else has often declared, I am EOD's sock puppet and not vice versa. I wear those accusations as a badge of honor: EOD knows lots of fancy words and expresses them elegantly.

You won't accept my denial as a denial, which is bizarre. You're still not getting the key issue here - what would be the point of me posting as HW or vice versa? There isn't one. I have no motive to do so.

I agree with HW's divorce analogy and one or two other things. But the writing style has differences, not just in superficialities such as punctuation, but also phrases such as "a precious gift", SOB etc which I wouldn't use. S/he also doesn't make the typos I do, because they are clearly using a larger keyboard.

This is just one of those Euro Deconstructionists techniques to try and get me to spend so much time on self-analysis that I don't have any left to challenge some of your nonsense.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You won't accept my denial as a denial, which is
> bizarre. You're still not getting the key issue
> here - what would be the point of me posting as HW
> or vice versa?

What indeed? And yet you did that last week with LogicalCanuckExmo, an identity that the admins have now expunged because it was fraudulent.



--------------------
> There isn't one. I have no motive
> to do so.

The motives are apparent. First you post as Jordan seven years ago, later you are embarrassed by what you wrote so you have the admins remove the post that described your home in Calgary, your marriage, etc., and deny that you are the same Jordan. And yet the new Jordan speaks of living outside the US, expresses deep familiarity with southern Canada, and writes in Canadian English. So your present denials of your previous identity ring hollow.

A second motive is your desire for a fan club. LogicalCanuckExmo and you kept applauding each other, just as HWint and you keep complimenting each other.

A third might be the fact that you are composing posts on two different computers perhaps at two different locations and for some reason feel it easier to stay logged in with different names on the different computers.


--------------------
> I agree with HW's divorce analogy and one or two
> other things.

You agree with HW? What a surprise!


------------------
> But the writing style has
> differences, not just in superficialities such as
> punctuation, but also phrases such as "a precious
> gift", SOB etc which I wouldn't use.

As someone else noted, Hwint's style changed after I mentioned the probable identity. But the new facade keeps slipping. In the "weird people" thread Hwint slipped back into his old syntax, which is the same as yours. And the conservative tropes you both employ remain the same, like "liberation theology," "cultural Marxism," "Christian socialism," etc.


------------
> S/he also
> doesn't make the typos I do, because they are
> clearly using a larger keyboard.

Yes, that would be because you are typing on two different keyboards



-------------
> This is just one of those Euro Deconstructionists
> techniques to try and get me to spend so much time
> on self-analysis that I don't have any left to
> challenge some of your nonsense.

"Euro Deconstructists [sic] techniques." Do you and HWint have any thoughts of your own, thoughts that don't come from the glossaries at the back of right-wing pamphlets?

> I agree with HW's divorce analogy and one or two
> other things. But the writing style has
> differences, not just in superficialities such as
> punctuation, but also phrases such as "a precious
> gift", SOB etc which I wouldn't use. S/he also
> doesn't make the typos I do, because they are
> clearly using a larger keyboard.

Two things, Jordan.

First, when you deny something, don't explain it. An innocent person would say, "no, I am not Hwint." You, by contrast, feel a compulsion to explain why your denial is credible, thereby indicating that it is not.

You did that as well when I identified you as the Jordan who posted about his marriage seven years ago. You answered that you have never been married, which is where a speaker of the truth would have stopped, but then you added extensive explanations about how you never married because you think divorce is too expensive and skewed in favor of women. All that extra verbiage, all that explanation, evinces deception.

Here you over-explain yet again when you say you are not HWint and then try to persuade people by adding detail about punctuation, vocabulary, etc. That is a "tell" in the sense that honest people don't feel the need to explain. They just state.

Second, your comments about punctuation, etc., deserve scrutiny on another level as well. You claim that differences in these stylistic elements prove that you and HWint are different posters. I note, however, that HWint's punctuation changed when I declared that you and he are the same. Ted noticed that too. On the 17th, he observed: It's interesting that "HWINT seems to purposely change his/her grammar and punctuation (e.g. not cap'ing the first letter in each sentence) and delib trying to make the post appear different. Me thinks he is trying to much and therefore tells on himself to the rest of us. Very strange."

Ted is correct, as anyone can tell who goes back two weeks and reads HWint's posts then. You changed HWint's writing style and now point to it--amusingly after Ted commented on the transparency of the gambit--as evidence that you and HWint are different. It is hard to imagine a less creative, and less convincing, piece of duplicity.

I want to play Poker with you, Jordan. You are a really, really bad liar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2019 03:42AM by Lot's Wife.

If I just said "I am not Hwint" then you would continue with your accusations asking me to back it up.

Normality is mediocrity.

I repeat: I'd love to play poker with you, Jordan. Not only are you a bad liar, you are also, as you note, a mediocrity.

Bring your wallet. Or better yet, bring your mother's--assuming she wasn't ruined by divorce like your constant protestations against marriage indicate you were.

I'm curious:

Can people with depression who live at high altitudes move to sea level and find relief?

Is this so with everyone everywhere on the globe?

If so, it seems that this fact would have been observed and documented long ago.

Is anyone looking into this? Have the altitude studies considered this in their findings?

It seems strange that this question isn't being raised.

The data isn't clear.

There is some indication that suicide is more frequent at higher elevations, but mental illness and depression and consumption of anti-depressive medications are not. Utah is high in all four categories; neighboring states have below-average rates of depression and medication.

So at this point the only association with elevation is for suicide rates. That the data on depression do not coincide with that means that more research is necessary simply to establish the altitude causation. Until that is done it wouldn't make sense to see if rates of depression decline as altitude decreases because there is not a definitive connection between depression and altitude.

I think people might be wired to tend to be more pessimistic or optimistic in nature. I tend to be pessimistic and I'm never disappointed!

The first step in solving problems is recognizing them.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think people might be wired to tend to be more
> pessimistic or optimistic in nature. I tend to be
> pessimistic and I'm never disappointed!

Truly, the Power of Positive Pessimism!

I like to think of my glass as semi-half-unconsumed.

Some of the stories I have heard here leave me yearning for the other side's version!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some of the stories I have heard here leave me
> yearning for the other side's version!

You've already heard it Mrs Lot.

"WHY ????"

(this is easy)


you can not get people to react to nothing, but it is very easy to get them to over react to something, especially if that something is portrayed as dire /urgent enough. Blood sucking Parasitic / PREDATORY entities like LD$ inc know that.

The "over reaction" that blood sucking entities seek is to have the subject give them money. It is a contest / competition between blood sucking entities to create the most urgency and over reaction to get the most money. .....that how LD$ Inc ended up as "THE ONLY true church" and my MORmON parents ended up ALWAYS (ALWAYS !!!!!!!!) being BROKE.

HOW absurd that MORmON Jesus the (supposed) creator of the Universe is so helpless on His own .....without any money to get things going, AND He needs your help!!! THANKS GOD that LD$ Inc is here to collect that money for MORmON Jesus, because MORmON Jesus Creator of the Universe is so damn help less that He can not even collect the cash so LD$ Inc has to do it for Him !!!!

Somehow things are always getting worse!!! regardless of what is really happening!!

Shush!!!


I think I hear the lost ten tribes coming !!!! Hurry!!! Write out a check to LD$ Inc !!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q6B-ROmZ6A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKjTRWJgKhY

“more content creators focusing on positive messages and recognizing, and celebrating, the basic self-evident fact that there's never been a better time to be alive in human history”

It’s a trick of the adversary. We need things to get super bad like they were in Noah’s time so Jesus will come.

Group think, and cult behavior.

In Mormonism, to gain status, you have to appear to be humble, so shedding some tears wins you points.

In Recovery from Mormonism, you have to appear to be angry, so profanity, and finding fault with Mormons wins you points.

So, ironically, the RfM board prolongs recovery, by promoting anger.

Would be better to explain to newbies here that, yes, the church is BS, but so is most of life. The church is but one of an endless series of scams you'll be part of, unless you develop some critical thought.

Which won't happen if you're trying to follow the crowd here, as many did when supporting the con artist, McKenna Denson, or whatever her real name is.

RfM doctrine: If it is against Mormons, it has to be true!

Did it ever occur to you that when people found out that they have been lied to their whole lives, like the Mormon church did to us, they would be angry at the organization that lied to them?

Or can you not comprehend anything beyond your narcissistic, "Everything that I don't do is part of a cult mentality, I'm so special" attitude you keep spewing on this board?

> In Recovery from Mormonism, you have to appear to
> be angry, so profanity, and finding fault with
> Mormons wins you points.

Why blame Mormonism when you can always blame women for your ills?


-----------
> So, ironically, the RfM board prolongs recovery,
> by promoting anger.

Imagine then how envious we are of those of you who are capable of sustaining your rage without RfM!


------------
> Which won't happen if you're trying to follow the
> crowd here, as many did when supporting the con
> artist, McKenna Denson, or whatever her real name
> is.

You are right, Free Man. McKenna Denson's profoundly flawed character means it was alright for Joseph Bishop to abuse her--and others he admitted abusing. He gets a free pass for the others!


-------------
> RfM doctrine: If it is against Mormons, it has
> to be true!

Free Man doctrine: if it is against women, it has to be true!


------------
MGTOW: fly away Free Man, the cage door is open. Be free!

McKenna Denson is clearly a troubled woman, but I don't write off everything she says because she has managed to get Bishop on tape admitting some of the things he did.

> So, ironically, the RfM board prolongs recovery,
> by promoting anger.

This is a half truth. The Zeitgeist encourages people to wallow in victimhood. And we have all been victims at some level, and to overcome we must stop acting like victims. The Zeitgeist also encourages bigotry towards religion, men and white people. So many indulge in that nonsense. The Zeitgeist also bangs the drum for minorities and so called "diversity". Yet we are all in some minority, and it is impossible to be diverse enough (all attempts at "diversity" fall down on some criterion).

> The Zeitgeist encourages
> people to wallow in victimhood. And we have all
> been victims at some level, and to overcome we
> must stop acting like victims. The Zeitgeist also
> encourages bigotry towards religion, men and white
> people.

Once again I find myself wishing you were intelligent enough to see the irony in what you just wrote.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2019 03:26AM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's wife, thanks for speaking back to this dickhead.

Thank you, Dorothy. I'm not sure why he gets away with the constant political attacks, the bigotry, and the Pinocchio puppetry, but there you have it.

aren't really prophets.

Just imagine if it turned out that they really were what they claimed to be. That would mean that the universe is being managed by an extremely incompetent being who has mind-boggling huge superpowers, but doesn't know what to do with them....

The reality is mostly hilarious. It's just sad that there are many friends and relatives who can't see how obvious it is that they're looking to a bunch of empty suits for "divine guidance".

That's my little "glass half full" message for the day. ;o)

The prophet has all the keys, like the school janitor with the giant keychain. It’s an awesome responsibility, but Clem from “Joe Dirt” handled it well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YkeOr720S5w

Evolutionary biology/psychology:

Those who were optimistic were not looking for the crouching predator and so did not survive to reproduce. The wary skeptical saw, survived, reproduced. And so here we are.

So it is, the brain has through time become wired to be a tool of survival.

When you read what someone posts on the internet, you are only seeing a small glimpse into their life or how they feel about life. How they feel about the lds church or about their ex, etc., etc.

I obviously must have healed quite a bit because my "ex" lives in this house that I paid for for 20 years by myself and I am good friends with him. We get along great. People are shocked by the fact I have anything to do with him at all. I see what kind of person he really is deep down (although is an asshole some of the time--there I am cussing as I'm such an angry person). I cuss. It's part of my life. I posted that the other day. I used to cuss hoeing beets for my dad from age 10 to 22 or so years old. Those damn weeds. I learned to take out a bunch of weeds and leave the little beet sitting there. And I cussed. And my dad cussed all our lives. He was not an angry man, but he could be.

I come here for a shoulder when I have to stand outside the temple when my daughter gets married, when my aunt sends me some obnoxious e-mail and treats me like I'm unworthy, when my best friend of some 35 years lets me know yet again that I obviously still believe deep down, and when my neighbors keep inviting me to mormon functions as though I'm lost. When Russ makes a change to how they treat children of gay parents and then reverses that decision with not much fanfare. I cried for 3 months after they told me my kids were second best as their father is gay.

When I go talk to my therapist once every few months, I tell him what I need help with and then I go about my life. He just found out--after over 20 years--that my little sister drinks A LOT. I've talked to him for years and he never knew that until this past visit. He sees only what I discuss with him and not the big picture of my life.

And neither do people on this board or on fb. I post mostly about my dogs on fb. They are oftentimes what keeps me going when I had to go work at Sam's Club and they were so happy to see me when I got home.

I didn't know I was allowed to be angry at the church or the leaders UNTIL I CAME TO THIS BOARD. I hated gays because of what my "ex" had put me through and I was shocked to realize my anger was directed mostly in the wrong direction. It was very healing to me to finally direct my anger where it belonged.

And my therapist told me, after my boyfriend asked me when we first hooked back up who told me I couldn't be angry, well the lds church told me I couldn't be angry, that being angry was of satan. Well bullshit on that. Anger is part of grieving, part of recovery. So we can all suppress it until it kills us or we can DEAL WITH IT and this I believe is what this board is all about--a place to deal with our anger and pain over what the lds church has done and continues to do to MOST OF US--if not all of us. Look at what the lds church's influence is doing to Don right now.

If I want to be angry, I'll goddamn be angry and I'm sick of people telling me I can't be.

And if you want me to let you know just how bad it got--act like things are worse than they are--you guys haven't a clue how bad my life really got as I don't post about the things I went through over being in my situation. Thankfully, I found a therapist who carried me through. Actually, I just happened to mention some things my ex and the boyfriend he left me for (not all the ones in between) just recently and he said, "You never told me about that!!!"

They used to scream at me that I couldn't get any money. I was so broke you can't imagine how bad it got. I could have gone to prison for something I did I was so desperate to take care of my kids and my husband wasn't helping me. They were only abusing me. AND to find out just recently how much his pension is worth and if I divorce him TODAY how much money I'd get--including half his 401Ks. AND I CHOOSE NOT TO DIVORCE HIM. Now tell me who is angry. And I'm DAMN SICK of mormons thinking it is my fault HE IS STILL GAY--that I wans't righteous enough, that I gave up. It ain't his fault. IT'S MY FAULT. It ain't the church's fault, IT'S MY FAULT. So get the hell off my back.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2019 10:07AM by cl2.

That all makes sense but my post wasn't about anger. My post was about people making things seem worse than they actually are.

You don't seem to be doing that at all. I also don't think you're a pessimist based on everything you said. You are clearly an optimist.

anon4this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> One poster is
> constantly posting threads trying to paint
> christians as crazy, citing ridiculous anecdotes
> that don't at all represent the christian
> community.

What is "the christian community"?

Having met christians from the Vatican to Vietnam and from Armenia to Zimbabwe they don't seem to have much in common to me.

I would challenge you to privately inquire to yourself what your intention was in posting this reply. Were you trying to signal something particular to other posters? Surely you didn't think this added value to the discussion on making things seem worse than they actually are.

Although your caricature of Christians all over the world not having much in common is probably a good case study for exactly what I'm talking about.

Christians around the world, just like muslims, or jews, or hindus, have an incredible amount in common. That makes them a community.

At least we can agree that Christians generally don't believe that meatless burgers are of the devil, despite one's attempts to paint them as such.

I think you are way overthinking this. Stating that there is wide variability within the billion-person-plus Christian community is not a particularly startling statement.

So what you're saying is that I made Visitors Welcome's comment seem worse than it is.

Dang it!!

Visitors Welcome is correct, as BoJ said. Speaking of Christianity or any other massive religion/culture as unitary is silly.

but my take on what he said is that EVERYONE believes differently even if they are of the same religious persuasion and they act differently, live differently, think differently. We are all unique.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but my take on what he said is that EVERYONE
> believes differently even if they are of the same
> religious persuasion and they act differently,
> live differently, think differently. We are all
> unique.

You say on another thread you were flad to be away from "different" people. Or weird people as you said.

You seem to have missed the first sentence.

CL2 said "but my take on what he said is"

She wasn't speaking for herself. Therefore, your accusation doesn't apply.

Why are you here, Jordan?

You seem to spend most of your time picking fights, trolling, and disseminating propaganda. Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be related to recovering from mormonism.

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are you here, Jordan?
>
> You seem to spend most of your time picking
> fights, trolling, and disseminating propaganda.
> Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be related to
> recovering from mormonism.

Picking fights, trolling, and disseminating propaganda is ALL Jordan seems to be here to do.

If I were to come here and mention only the good that can be found in Mormonism I may be banned from this forum. That wouldn't be an accurate portrayal of the church. There is some bad in the church as well, the most obvious of which is the fact that the "one true church" claim is a lie. For me at least, that matters - the truth matters.

There is very little mention of the good found in the church and its programs in these discussions. Rfm is a response and backlash and provides some balance to the biased and dishonest presentation if information found in the church.

A balanced and truthful approach is honest and sees both the good and the bad and speaks freely to both.