Catholicrebel, I hope you don't mind me opening this back up. I was on vacay and this really hit a spot with me.

I was married to a TBM Narc for 18+ years. Two kids, now adults. Shockingly, the ex and I calmly get along. we are not friends; just amicable.

I think the only way I can calmly associate with the ex is I did a LOT of research on red flags of narcissists and I worked on my boundaries and how to defend them.

I too dated a very controlling man a few years back who wanted to move way too fast. Anytime *I* put a boundary or wanted something from him...(even information from the past!) I was labeled as "too sensitive, paranoid, etc.". He kept telling me he knew what I wanted out of life, my true emotions, and how he was the man I needed, etc.

I tried to talk to him calmly and respectfully about my boundaries and what I knew I needed out of life. I was in my 40's at this point so I was quite self actualized. someone else telling me who I am at that point in life was never going to fly. He told me that I was putting the feelings of my past ex on him and didn't want to discuss it any more.

He wanted to control everything about every date we went on. One time he chose a very expensive place and I asked him if he was sure and let him know it was ok to pick something more reasonable. He smiled and let me know he had it all taken care of. When we got there, I offered again to have the bill split and even got out my credit card and asked our server to split the bill..he took my card, handed it back and said. "I got this".

Three weeks later he sent me an email telling me what my half was of that bill and asked for a check.

That expensive outing was all about appearances to others.

I sent him a check and told him I didn't want to see him any more.

Then the explosive texts and emails. Not calls. Not requests to discuss with me. (Not that I expected any reasonable discussions). He reached out to the few friends I introduced him to and tried to slander my character. They all laughed due to knowing me for years prior and post divorce, etc..

He wrote me a list of all the problems with me, stating he kept this list since the beginning of our friendship. That friendship was years before we starting dating.

He was married when we met. The friendship was off and on thru the years as I was dating others and he never contacted me if I was in a relationship. Then he reached out to me and stated he was divorced, had always had feelings for me and wondered if I did too. I did not at that point, but said I would be willing to date and explore a relationship. He was very good at building himself up and tearing his ex down. I never met his ex due to him living out of state at that time.

I read his "list of red flags" regarding me. Including wanting to eat onions in front of him. Yep. Including me having a nap while he watched the Soccer World Cup and not enjoying it with him. (Granted he kept me up all night before).

I did not respond to any of the emails. I went on full ignore and block mode. You MUST do this with a narcissist.

It was after this relationship I had to learn why I attracted two narcissistic relationships. At least during the second one I saw the signs and put the close on it.

I had to learn why I was the magnet. It turns out that I used to be the narcissists favorite food. I also had a narcissist female friend that I had to walk away from.

Im glad to read that you broke up with him, but I saw something in your last post that caught my eye. You mentioned him returning a key to your best friend that he took from you.

You did not clarify, but I hope this was the catalyst that made you realize he is not the man he claimed to be.

NO GOOD MAN will take something from you that he has not earned and you have not freely given to him. I hope he did not take that key without your permission, but Im glad you changed the locks.

Consider in the future dating only men who have been previously married and have kids. Men with this previous experience are going to be cautious about future relationships, take things slower and usually understand the sacrifices a spouse and parent make. I see that experience as a valuable asset, not a deterrent.

I no longer date men who are not previously married or parents. I want that common thread, because my past experience is also a valuable asset.

Understanding that my past is actually a blessing was a huge strength. I learned my own value. I learned skills how to discern players and put the close down on people who did not have the best intentions for both of us.

Gaining that confidence and ability to tell unsuitable suitors why we would not be a good match made me a less desirable snack for narcissists.

The minute you let a potential partner know that you don't NEED them to make life happen, but that you are looking for a partner and companion to grow with....the fakes just avoid you.
I told a man once "I don't need anyone to complete me. I am a whole person." The look of confusion on his face was priceless.

He was feeding me the fantasy of what we could be someday and I let him know I wasn't buying that. I was in the now and wanted to get to know who he was right now, just for himself and not as husband material. If someone has to sell you the fantasy to fall in love; No sale.

I hope you are doing well now that a few days of your breaking up have passed. Please take this time to give yourself lots of self care. From one single Mom to another, it is worth it!

You are rebuilding this beautiful life for yourself and your kids. Anyone worthy of sharing that with you will see it as a privilege, not a right.

Best Wishes,
RMM

A question, if you would:

You wrote, "I had to learn why I was the magnet. It turns out that I used to be the narcissists favorite food." (With the follow-up of being a "snack."

Quite a metaphor! At the risk of prying, I'd appreciate your expanding on this. What made you so attractive to controlling narcissists?

That's a really good question, because IMO that may have been what was going on with Catholicrebel. A narc saw potential prey.

I think the narcissists can smell my lack of boundaries a mile away.

"Will she drop everything and listen to my latest 'emergency'?"

"First I tell her how great she is and then I tell her the things she needs to change and she actually tries to change."

"She listens to me endlessly and reassures me that I'm wonderful."

"She'll make time for me even when she's obviously tired and burned out."

So When I've identified that they are sucking me dry, I try to put the breaks on and suddenly it's a sport to see how quickly I can be shamed back into place. Sometimes I think I need to just yell-- NEXT!

I think it's partly my basic giving nature and partly years of training by a church that teaches you to never put yourself first. Saying no is a sin.

I love that RMM was able to evolve and learn.

The only thing I know about dealing with narcissists is DO NOT PLAY.

They are not interested in having a balanced relationship based on mutual respect.

Free advice for anyone in therapy:

Don’t date while you’re in therapy.

Not even if your therapist asks you out?

Every narcissist has a "pay off" of some sort. A Narc needs that energy source to exist in the relationship. The main meals of that energy source are attention, adoration, sympathy and devotion.

Once that food source is established the Narc tends to change the terms of the relationship with fault finding, blame shifting, gas-lighting, and distancing techniques. The cycle can go around several times as the Narc "plays with its food" so to speak to always have the upper hand in the relationship.

The attention of a Narc is often gloriously addictive with glowing praise, quick declarations of love and devotion. If the relationship is intimate-it is often intensely passionate and seductive. Sex and sexuality are brought up.

The pull close/push away cycle often leaves the target disoriented and desperately dependent on the Narc, which is ironic because the energy source really has all the power.

Its like being addicted to a love drug with a huge crash.

So, you ask, what is the Narcs fave food source?

Kind, empathetic, giving, resourceful and intelligent people. Targets are often people pleasers and have pasts of being hurt and manipulated. They are often people who are "servers" of some type. Teachers, nurses, people who have given a lot of themselves to make another person or organization happy and pleased. Folks who want to be loved and accepted. People who don't like saying no or thought of as "mean" or "unkind".

A good target is one who is a great listener and someone who offers lots of compassion towards all the Narc's past hurts. There will be plenty of stories to tell you how they survived their awful pasts.

A Narc will put you under the "you are so special and unique" drug spell.

If you are a target, please know there is NOTHING WRONG with you. You are a beautiful soul with a great big heart. Nothing wrong with that. As a former Narc buffet, I had to realize I am the person who gets to invite who comes to my table and if anyone has bad manners I take the responsibility to show them the way out.

Most former targets don't have the "confrontational skills" to deal with Narcs and there are plenty of support boards on the internet to help folks with skill building for this. But the most powerful word you need to learn is NO. Mean it. Protect your mental, emotional and physical well being.

Cut the Narc out of your life completely. Do not think you can tame them or be friends. Narcs lack empathy. What you need or want in life is irrelevant. When you are out of their sights, you mean nothing to them. They think of you and engage with you for two things. They either need something from you or rage because they didn't get what they wanted.

So, what made me so attractive to my narcissists? I was easily charmed by their stories of themselves. Their pasts, their clever ways of honing in on my own personal desires and saying "Oh, I want that too!". I was a very good listener, but I was horrible at seeing red flags of control. I loved being told how special I was. It was like a custom made love drug. I am a natural encourager and Im good at making people feel better. All my Narcs told me I am gentle and sweet.

In my first marriage I was way too much of a pushover and always let my TBM ex "love me" to get his way.

I was in a daze for several months and before I knew it I was married. Everything changed in just a few months when I spoke up about wanting something different than what he wanted. (Something benign like a different way of making spaghetti) He was blown away that I would want something DIFFERENT.

Narcs USE you as a resource for attention. They even use you to show off to others for attention and envy of others "This is my gf, she made me the best meal the other day. I am such a blessed guy."

Nothing wrong with that public praise, but a Narc will never say THANK YOU to the person who prepared a meal. My ex told me it was my job to make him happy. At that time, as a good Molly Mo, I believe that was true. If I failed it was my fault.

As long as you follow the desired script of the Narc you are fine. When you don't follow the role you were hired to play you will get constant criticism. Oh, and heaven forbid if someone ELSE gives you praise or gratitude in front of them. Usually they sulk silently about it, but they often take it as a cue to take you down a few notches later so you don't get too full of yourself.

I still am a very empathetic, sympathetic, good listener, and a caretaker. I love people and I love to help people. I am still gentle, but now Im very emotionally strong. I am still sweet, but I am far from being a push over. Instead of staying quiet and agreeing politely-I speak up. Even if it means a consequence or loss of a relationship.

However, I am very careful now who gets emotionally and physically intimate with me. I have GREAT boundaries and a fabulous BS detector. I know what redflags to look for and run from. (Seek out Narc support groups online)

I never try to rehab a Narc. I know what questions to ask to weed out Narc tendencies. (Again, I wont get into it here as there are support boards that go deeper into these skills)

The best part of all is when you DO strengthen those skills and know your own worth it becomes easier every time to filter out the phonies.

You still go on being the loving person you are, but with a security screen with you at all times. You may make less friends, but you will make the RIGHT ones.

RMM

I see overlap with the domestic abuser profile.

Search "domestic violence cycle" (will probably auto-complete,"of abuse"). Then hit "images" and you'll see what I'm getting at. Issues of male privilege; control being camouflaged with flattery, romance, passionate sex; developing emotional, social, and economic dependence; isolation; possessiveness confused with love; then the precipitation of a crisis (possibly violent), followed by renewed courtship, and so on.

Another similarity is that the Narc/domestic abuser has an intuitive skill set for sensing prospective victims. And, very unfortunately, tend to repeat the pattern, sometimes with the same man, or with others. Most unfortunately, it takes a lot of hurt for victims to see the pattern, get educated, and make the personal changes necessary to establish the healthy boundaries and self-esteem necessary for a relationship based on love and mutuality, instead of exploitation and neediness.

Very glad you made the needed changes, RMM, but oh--what a cost in pain and lost years! Better late than never, as they say.

(You also write very well.)

Thanks caffiend ,

Yes I would agree with the domestic abuser profiling too. My TBM Ex spouse fit that role, my ex Narc BF and ex female friend did not fit that role.

I used to think that my past experiences were a huge waste of time. I used to blame my parents for not giving me the social tools to deal with such people. But, I did learn and now I have a great big beautiful life to live without BS. :)

I have my own relationship/friendship checklist that I go thru when I am getting to know someone.

*Positive actions are viewed far more often than words.

*Is this person mostly positive rather than negative?

*Do they invite drama in their lives. IE, always a victim, their ex was always psycho, everyone in their past always hurt them or took advantage of them.

*Does this person always seem to need me? Affection, attention, money, things, acts of service...but is never reciprocated? This is different than the lavish attention a Narc gives you in the very beginning of a relationship, ie, buying your affections with gifts.

*Does this person put effort into getting to know me? Not just mining for information or seeking my vulnerabilities, but getting to know what makes me happy? Do they act on that knowledge?

*Does this person dismiss my feelings when I have concerns, boundaries, worries etc?

*Do they go to other friends or family members they know to build up their own image and case against me or on their behalf?

If I see too many red flags I am simply not interested in pursing more with that person.

RMM

We get it Jordan. You think she was taking advantage of him.

Narcissists and controllers often use money/gifts to exert control over their targets.

Years back, I had a friend who took my life over by storm. Within a week, she'd bought me her favorite potted plant. Two weeks later she decided I needed a Keurig coffee maker. When I tried to protest, she was hurt. The gifts kept coming along with greater demands for my time and attention. I would have offered everything back when I ended things about 2 months later, but I wasn't about to get involved to make that negotiation. All items found homes with friends that needed and wanted them.

If this guy had given her a car, it might be different, but a few things--give it a rest.

I know there are women who are just after what they can get. This doesn't seem to be one of those situations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2019 11:20AM by Dorothy.

"...all the expenditures flow in one direction" can mean that the recipient (probably female) is a gold digger, which is, I think, your take on his remark.

It can also mean that the relationship, as manifested in gifts and expenses (who picks up the check, etc.) is one-way. That is, the Narc/abuser uses control of the finances to control the relationship. Economic dependency is a frequent tool in the violent abuser's tool bag.

I think that's what Jordan is getting at.

Lastly, getting the thread to LDS-relevant territory, LDS' romanticized images of the SAHM, coupled with idealized concepts of patriarchy, constitute the perfect culture and psychology for this type of abusive dynamic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2019 11:28AM by caffiend.

I hope that was the intent. His other comments made it sound like he thought she was gold digging.

Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope that was the intent. His other comments
> made it sound like he thought she was gold
> digging.

FWIW, some people seem to do better out of a relationship than the other. Men do this to women, women do it to women, women do it to women and men do it to men.

If you feel you are being showered with gifts you don't want, you should say. I think all of these things should be a two way traffic, whether in relationships, friendships or whatever.

In ordinary, healthy relationships, you're right, Jordan. But we're not talking about that. These are dysfunctional relationships, where gift-giving is a means of exerting subtle power and control over a vulnerable person unawares. As the gifts (and other financial largess) accumulate, the victim becomes increasingly beholding to the controller (Narc/abuser).

You can't simply tell them, "stop it--it's not healthy."

Such victims are typically unpracticed at recognizing the process, and become too deeply entrapped (financially, psychologically, matrimonially) to effectively extricate themselves. One wishes one could simply sit them down, and explain what's happened, and tell them to break it all off,
but the Narc's control mechanisms are as subtle, intricate, multifaceted, and powerful.

Consider giving Recovered Molly Mo's posts a careful re-read.

My TBM ex husband tried to buy my devotion early on in our relationship. I told him to cut it out. I told him he didn't have to buy me anything. Buying things for his past gfs always worked. I also didn't ask for anything materialistic.

During our marriage, I did enjoy some materialistic privileges, but this came long after we had been married several years, otherwise we lived very humbly. However, during every NARC cycle of depreciation (the talking down and diminishing the esteem of the target) he would tell me I was not worth any of his "kindnesses and generosity".

When I was very low and broken...he would apologize with flowers or my favorite treat.

Just because I am the target of gifts, does not make me a gold digger. A Narc is trying to find my price and gets frustrated when I can not be bought. A true kind friend will go out of their way to show they care in simple, thoughtful ways.

My TBM ex's Mother was the same way and used to try to bribe me with VERY extravagant gifts with strings attached.

"If you put my grandchildren in Christian private school, I will pay for it and pay for a trip to Europe for you". I declined.

A Narc only does the "buying" part for one purpose. To hook you in. It does not last long and always comes with strings attached. If they do not get the desired reaction from you they will remind you of your debt to them. Every. Single. Time.

RMM

YES! This is exactly. While I was not raised in an LDS home, I was raised in a Patriarch in charge home. I over romanticized the provider/Dad/Man of the house protecting his nurturer/Mother/Woman of the house.

My LDS experience targeted that need of "traditional" family home values.

I know now that I'm a feminine woman, but oh how strong I am! I love being a caretaker, a nurturer, a Mom. I was even a good wife. I am also a good provider. (Frankly better than my ex ever did even though he has more degrees than I do!)

But one thing I will never be good at again is a pushover. Any man telling me he is in charge of me is going to find himself in a position he wishes he didn't. I will never settle for a relationship for anything less than equal.

I put all these skills to good use in my career as well. It requires softness, emotions, but also a strong mind.

:) RMM

This is the problem with leaving Mormonism. You start thinking that you deserve a life.

Thank you for the replies. First off, Jordan I really could give two sh**ts if you think I'm a "gold digger" or not. For one, you know what they say about deflection and two I owe you no explanation for making decisions for my own inner peace and well being. You sound like a Narc yourself with all the guilt tripping which is what the narc uses to keep the victim in their grasp. I never asked for these gifts, I even told him given my Complex PTSD diagnosis and my past abusive relationship I did not want to be receiving too many gifts too quickly but he was rather insistent. He did not ask for them back, would not even communicate after we broke up. He blocked me on all social media accounts and then tried to return the key to my friend, which she refused to meet him by the way and yes, I did have my locks changed. He took the key without my permission long story short. However, I don't see myself as having fallen victim this time around. Therapy has helped me to identify these toxic behaviors and stop them in their tracks. I saw toxic behaviors and I ended it. No apologies, I don't owe anyone explanations. I don't care if I received gifts, he could have them all back if he wanted but he won't communicate. I work a full time job as a Montessori teacher and provide for myself. I don't need him and his toxic behavior. I'm not even going to touch the therapy comment, not worth my breath, because it clearly comes from an age old view of what therapy is even for
to begin with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2019 10:22PM by catholicrebel.

You go guuurrrrllll. Find somebody wonderful