Posted by:
Nightingale
(
)
Date: June 25, 2019 06:37PM
Surprising myself, I’ve been here far longer than I attended the Mormon Church. This place is much more entertaining, enjoyable and enlightening even on its worst, or slowest, day.
I have often stated that I still believe in God, in at least a Creator kind of way. When it comes to settling comfortably into a particular denomination, that is where it falls apart for me. I don’t seem to fit anywhere. I can’t join or belong or get along if I can’t fully subscribe to at least the main beliefs and principles. Unless I can overlook parts of things, I guess, although I was fairly well inoculated against such an approach during my JW years, a theology which demands an all or nothing approach. I can’t seem to shed that part of their conditioning of me during some of my most formative (teen/early adult) years. I think if you don't believe it all you can't be a member. It clangs inside my head otherwise. But it's worse in the more hardline places. Some give you some leeway.
I don’t remember anyone here giving me a hard time for stating my ongoing belief in God. Maybe that’s because, like the good doc (scmd1 above), I don’t engage in the more cerebral or esoteric discussions (because I am underqualified). So I don’t get into arguments about it. Another reason is it can be such a time sink. And time is most often in short supply.
Amyjo says: “Believers are free to believe and express themselves. The attacks come from the atheist camp against believers for believing in deity.”
Taking your statement at face value (I could be misunderstanding your meaning) believers aren’t actually free to express themselves here as the main rule about religion at RfM is “no preaching”. Then we get into the thicket of misunderstanding over the definition of “preaching”.
Unfortunately, there is disagreement over that as there as many interpretations of it as there are different denominations represented, reminiscent of Bible studies I have attended when some folks can spend entire evenings parsing a single sentence in one verse. An interesting, but ultimately futile, exercise.
In terms of “attacks” coming from atheists, I don’t really see that. However, I admit that this is certainly in the eye of the beholder – the one feeling “attacked” in this case. But if you feel attacked you can always (1) report the offending post to Admin and/or (2) take a breath and check out the exchanges again, asking if the intent was to attack, if you attacked first, if possibly you are unnecessarily feeling put upon, when the other poster didn’t intend it that way. All, and more, are possibilities.
AJ said: “It is my belief that to live your life without a reverence for the divine is to miss the miraculous in every living thing. I choose to embrace the miracle of life. Each day is a gift. We never know when it may come to an end. "There are only two ways to live your life: as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle." (Albert)”
This, in my view, is a statement of personal belief, not preaching. That is within the allowable parameters here, as I understand them. If, however, (as some do) you addressed it to the group (perceived as such, depending on how you word things) it switches into preaching/proselytizing mode fairly easily. Not only is that irritating to non-believers, at best, and against board rules, but also can be harmful to a person who is honestly seeking to recover from toxic religion. I know it can be difficult for believers to imagine how it that would feel but walking in another's shoes is an exercise worth perfecting. Even if one cannot understand how that feels or why it occurs we can strive to accept that it does and that our words can actually be harmful, whether we mean it or not.
I have tried to be a good board citizen in that even though I hold onto religious belief I try to watch how and when I express that and more carefully choose my words to be more secular (i.e. avoiding religious language such as ‘Hallelujah’ when really I mean ‘I agree’ or ‘That’s great news’ or ‘I’m so glad’ or words to that effect). Sometimes I would say it lightly or unthinkingly until I realized that it’s not the best choice in a forum full of people who are sick, often literally, of religion. I can live with that. It doesn’t hurt me and may help someone else.
Roy G Biv says: “The attack is on the message, not the messenger.” (i.e. “attack” by atheist on expressed religious belief, not on the believer). I think this is usually the case. (Again, it may not *feel* that way to the religious person but it doesn’t hurt to try and keep things in perspective and not assume the other person has a bad motive or is coming from attack mode).
scmd1 says: “Belief or nonbelief in deity has little to nothing to do with the mission of this board. Dwelling on either aspect could be construed to be proselytism.”
Re the second sentence – perhaps. But discussion of beliefs, old and new, is perhaps inevitable due to the mix of people here, ranging from those still in the church, although having questions, at least, those in mixed marriages (one spouse still a believer), and those exploring life after Mormonism. As it was so all-consuming, it is perhaps at least one step in post-moism or recovery to discuss religion and past and present and maybe future beliefs. I think some can get a lot out of these exchanges, helping them to become familiar with the main issues and the thinking of every side. I think that Admin steps in to limit some of these types of discussions if they get too circular or argumentative. But this type of exchange can be informative and useful in many ways as people transition out of the church, if only to see how non-mos and further-out exmos exchange views. I remember a poster from way back who said that she used to go and sit in a coffee shop to observe how non-Mormons interacted – that’s how deeply in she had been and how distant she felt from the nevermo world. To see people discussing controversial topics, and doing it well and rationally and without argument (the latter part is the hardest) can be a good step in recovery.
bona dea says: “Atheists, a few of them, proselytize here a lot and it is allowed, but let a Christian try to do the same and they are shut down. There is a double standard and I don't like it. Never have. The same standard should apply to everyone.”
The same standard *is* applied to everyone: No preaching religion. The purpose of the board, as stated on the main page, is: “A site for those who are questioning their faith in the Mormon Church and for those who need support as they transition their lives to a normal life. We are not affiliated with any religion and we do not advocate any religion.” Eric K. stated his purpose in starting this board and has put in a mighty effort for many years to stick to that, despite all the wrangling to try and shape it to the desires of others. It’s not a place to debate religious belief or try and gain converts to a new belief system. Clear as that. It is focused on former Mormons and questioning Mormons. I find there is wide latitude for many needs and viewpoints to find a place and for people to connect with others who may understand them more than anyone anywhere else. I wouldn’t even dream of coming here to preach my brand of theism. I can live with that. There are other places to go, if that’s what I want to find.
An observer says: “If the atheists would learn some social skills and/or get their aggression under control and not constantly attack others, it would help a lot. … they're still behaving inappropriately. I've been reading this board on & off for many years as someone interested in cults, and the unchecked aggression has been a problem for a long time.”
Maybe, but that could easily be due to people just finding their feet after a negative (understatement) religious experience. The main “appropriate” behaviour here would be to follow board rules, which includes not arguing, not proselytizing, not politicizing, not wounding the community, and all those good “nots” that can make for a more inviting atmosphere for people who need a place to bare their souls if they feel so inclined, without worrying they are going to be attacked for what they are saying (that, no matter their needs, still has to fall within board guidelines).
Henry Bemis is thought-provoking: “It should not be surprising that an exMormon naturally seeks to fill the void of what has been lost in the rejection of their Mormon worldview. … the rebound from Mormonism often includes adopting an alternative religious orientation that preserves faith, while reaching for more plausible rational grounding. Sharing such perspectives is a very important aspect of this Board because it allows us to see how others have managed the loss of Mormon faith and gone on with their lives. We do not have to agree in order to benefit from such perspectives.”
Tom in Paris weighs in with wisdom and giggles: “You're probably right Henry (or wrong....). But the fact is that we can all live fulfilling and even useful lives while agreeing with you or not. [Tom is] living a happy, fulfilling and useful life, but that's the beauty of this sort of forum: you can expound them [ideas], those who agree can agree and those who don't agree don't even have to read them. What a wonderful world.” (Tom is fun and smart and relaxing and he’s in Paris in the Springtime! What's not to love?)
valkyriequeen: “I really enjoy this board. Posters here are intelligent and know their stuff. Some things have made me laugh out loud; other things have really made me think.” Me too vq: lots of laughs – much appreciated, and I learn a lot too. Mostly how much I don’t know. That can be shocking or enlightening. All depends on your attitude.
I wish we could discuss all topics without getting angry with each other. (I’m not immune myself though. I can see red too. You never know when something said will hit you in the gut and likely the poster didn’t intend that and will obviously never know – unless you tell them. Mostly best to just let it go. My attitude is that hopefully, usually, they didn’t mean to cause that effect). If we could remember what brings most of us together - our shared negative experiences with Mormonism - that may go a long way to tamping down, or preventing, the wildfires that erupt that are of little benefit to anyone.
Meanwhile, I will promise to try and avoid any random impulse to come here and preach my religion at you. That won’t be hard at the moment as even I don’t really know at this point what I do believe. I am better informed when it comes to being aware of what I do not believe. For starters, that would be pretty much anything found within the church formerly known as Mormon. Which brings us back full circle to the topic at hand.
Peace. :)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 07:45PM by Nightingale.