Evangelicals are moving to the far right and are more rigid than ever before and it's not going to happen...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/29/us/mormon-church-name-change.html

“Being a Mormon, as Joseph Smith thought of it, means being a truth gatherer,” Ms. Marshall Nelson said. “That’s an identity that I am going to keep in my heart.”

Good luck with that.

Mormons want to be called Christians so they can trick people into listening to their message.

Leaving Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons want to be called Christians so they can
> trick people into listening to their message.

This was my distinct impression. They even had a former EV missionary who was a ZL come from outside my area to persuade me to get baptized. It worked, to my regret. He was speaking my language and knew exactly what to say and do to get another baptism under his belt.

Embarrassing not to realize until much later how they market their religion like that.

There was a recent post here that mentioned how all the attention is directed towards the church and the leaders (and the expectations and "service", like tithing+, meeting attendance, cleaning toilets, nagging neighbours to go to church and related events) and not so much on God and Jesus. Of course, they deny that. Never heard a talk expounding a scriptural thought or teaching a desired value. Just Follow the Prophet and tithing, tithing, tithing, mission, mission, mission, family history, family history, family history.

The dearth of inspiration was depressing over the longer term.

hardline IBF evangelicals and Mormons target the same converts/markets: self-styled downscale middle class suburbanites.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2019 01:15AM by snagglepuss.

Leaving Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons want to be called Christians so they can
> trick people into listening to their message.

Mormons are Christians just very fringe ones with extra scriptures. They might be just right on the Trinity though since it's never described in the Bible how most churches teach it.

Leaving Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons want to be called Christians so they can
> trick people into listening to their message.


Bait and switch. What could go wrong?

@Leaving - I agree.

The exodus from inside the Mormon church is at frightening levels. Hence the leadership is doing all it can to change that, including trickery. Good news is that the churches like the non-denominational church I belong to are very much aware that Mormons do NOT believe in the same Jesus as Christians. There is no wiggle room here.

"Good news is that the churches like the non-denominational church I belong to are very much aware that Mormons do NOT believe in the same Jesus as Christians."

I think you'll find Mormons believe in the same Jesus - that man who lived in Judæa two thousand years ago and upset the Romans and Jewish leadedship with slave morality and social justice campaigns.

They might have a different view of Jesus, but it's the same character.

Mormon Jesus is Old Testament Jehovah. (Mainstream) Christian Jesus is not.

Mormon Jesus is a genocidal murderer in both hemispheres. (Mainstream) Christian Jesus is not.

Their views are so divergent and irreconcilable that the two Jesuses might as well be two different entities. At this point it's just semantics.

logged off today Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormon Jesus is Old Testament Jehovah.
> (Mainstream) Christian Jesus is not.

Mainstream Christianity believes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one and the same, so that would make Jesus Jehovah/YHWH of the Old Testament.

> Mormon Jesus is a genocidal murderer in both
> hemispheres. (Mainstream) Christian Jesus is not.

Mainstream Christianity believes that Jesus is Lord over all the Earth. Anf that he is also Jehovah.

> Their views are so divergent and irreconcilable
> that the two Jesuses might as well be two
> different entities. At this point it's just
> semantics.

Ultimately it all goes back to the same rabbi.

Different views maybe. I have a very different view of one of my neighbors than his wife does.

Christian churches do not believe that "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one and the same." They believe they are one God. That within the unity of one diety there are three separate "persons" who share power nature and eternity.

>>
Christian churches do not believe that "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one and the same." They believe they are one God. That within the unity of one diety there are three separate "persons" who share power nature and eternity.


Is that kind of like three super heroes who all have the same power? Or like three super heroes with different powers who work together as one team?

Does the Holy Spirt have the same powers as the Human personage? If they all had the same powers, there would be no need for them to have different manifestations. If they have the same power, can Jesus swap into being the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit can swap and be the Father? If not, then I can't see how you can say they share power nature.

It seems like mental gymnastics trying to claim one God is actually three personages, connected by whatever criteria, while still claiming they are not polytheists.

I've had dozens of Christians try to explain the trinity to me with slight differences in how they work around how 3 is really one but not really (clover leaf, etc.). Some of them are somewhat compatible with Mormonism's godhead, sans the chain of gods leading to the present god.

The Trinity is a really weird doctrine. It does appear in certain other religions by the way - Triune goddesses and the like.

But bizarrely I do get it. All the parts of the Trinity are the same, while maintaining a separate identity. So Jesus did create the world and do all the Old Testament stuff since he is one and the same as the other two. Trying to explain it is very hard though.

The Christian World has been fighting over the definitions of the trinity for millenia now.

It doesn't help that the New Testament doesn't back up trinitarian doctrine in the way you might think.

Whatever floats your boat, Dagny. My post was in response to the false information in the previous post.

Very heretical ones but Christians nonetheless.

Mormons are not Christians, Jordan. Their understanding of His nature and purpose are too far afield. Neither are Christian Scientists, Unitarians, Moonies, Scientologists, and JWs. Hare Krishnas "revere" Jesus, and so do Muslims (reducing him to the status of a lesser prophet). I once heard the Dali Lama commend the virtues of Christ--but that doesn't make him a Christian. (At least he didn't claim to be!)

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons are not Christians, Jordan. Their
> understanding of His nature and purpose are too
> far afield. Neither are Christian Scientists,
> Unitarians, Moonies, Scientologists, and JWs. Hare
> Krishnas "revere" Jesus, and so do Muslims
> (reducing him to the status of a lesser prophet).
> I once heard the Dali Lama commend the virtues of
> Christ--but that doesn't make him a Christian. (At
> least he didn't claim to be!)

DalAi Lama! In terms of him, and Hare Krishnas, I do not consider them Christians as mainly an issue of lineage. Scientology may use the cross but it has no Christian basis.

"Their understanding of His nature and purpose are too far afield."

If one goes back to early Christianity, i.e. the first three or four centuries, there was a HUGE variety of beliefs which is why creeds were written to rope things in. It is only in the past few hundred years that things have begun to diversify again.

We have been imprisoned too long in Roman ideas of Christ. The Vatican managed to promulgate its view of him over Arians, and Bogomils, Cathars and Nestorians. Sometimes they killed or tortured them to do so. If you go back to the New Testament itself - even though those books were chosen by a partisan committee - you can see that many modern Christian doctrines do not stem from it. The Trinity is never spelled out in the Gospels in quite the way that most churches today teach it.

"Mormons... Christian Scientists, Unitarians, Moonies, Scientologists, and JWs."

We can dismiss Scientology immediately. The others though are still heavily rooted in the Bible, despite abandoning some doctrine and adding their own (which is what happened with the Trinity elsewhere). Unitarians are probably the least Christian other than Scientologists, but that is due to their extreme liberalism not to any belief.

It is uncomfortable for most Christians to realize that all these groups (CoS aside) are their cousins. I've read literature from all of these groups, and (other than Scientology) they are all identifiably Christian. Maybe way out there Christians, but still Christians. There is a case for them being post-Christian - I might accepr that, but most mainstream Christianity is already a million miles from ancient Christianity anyway.

Bottom line: Mormonism is polytheistic. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are monotheistic. The Mormon Elohim is just the God of Earth and is one of many other gods and not the eternal omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God of the Universe without beginning or end.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/an-faq-on-the-difference-between-mormonism-and-biblical-christianity/

The following is adapted from the section on Mormonism (or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) in the ESV Study Bible article on religious cults. The attempt is to be concise yet still accurate. I’ve added questions in bold to break it up a bit.

What do Mormons believe about apostasy and restoration?

Mormons claim that “total” apostasy overcame the church following apostolic times, and that the Mormon Church (founded in 1830) is the “restored church.”

What’s the problem with this understanding?

If the Mormon Church were truly a “restored church,” one would expect to find first-century historical evidence for Mormon doctrines like the plurality of gods and God the Father having once been a man. Such evidence is completely lacking. Besides, the Bible disallows a total apostasy of the church (e.g., Matt. 16:18; 28:20; Eph. 3:21; 4:11–16), warning instead of partial apostasy (1 Tim. 4:1).

What do Mormons believe about God?

Mormons claim that God the Father was once a man and that he then progressed to godhood (that is, he is a now-exalted, immortal man with a flesh-and-bone body).

What does the Bible teach about the nature of God?

Based on the Bible, God is not and has never been a man (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9). He is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). Furthermore, God is eternal (Ps. 90:2; 102:27; Isa. 57:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) and immutable (or unchangeable in his being and perfections; see Ps. 102:25–27; Mal. 3:6). He did not “progress” toward godhood, but has always been God.

What do Mormons believe about the Trinity and polytheism?

Mormons believe that the Trinity consists not of three persons in one God but rather of three distinct gods. According to Mormonism, there are potentially many thousands of gods besides these.

What does the Bible teach about the Triune God?

Trusting in or worshiping more than one god is explicitly condemned throughout the Bible (e.g., Ex. 20:3). There is only one true God (Deut. 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:18; 46:9; 1 Cor. 8:4; James 2:19), who exists eternally in three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14).

What do Mormons believe about human exaltation?

Mormons believe that humans, like God the Father, can go through a process of exaltation to godhood.

What does the Bible teach about humanity?

The Bible teaches that the yearning to be godlike led to the fall of mankind (Gen. 3:4ff.). God does not look kindly on humans who pretend to attain to deity (Acts 12:21–23; contrast Acts 14:11–15). God desires humans to humbly recognize that they are his creatures (Gen. 2:7; 5:2; Ps. 95:6–7; 100:3). The state of the redeemed in eternity will be one of glorious immortality, but they will forever remain God’s creatures, adopted as his children (Rom. 8:14–30; 1 Cor. 15:42–57; Rev. 21:3–7). Believers will never become gods.

What do Mormons believe about Jesus?

Mormons believe that Jesus Christ was the firstborn spirit-child of the heavenly Father and a heavenly Mother. Jesus then progressed to deity in the spirit world. He was later physically conceived in Mary’s womb, as the literal “only begotten” Son of God the Father in the flesh (though many present-day Mormons remain somewhat vague as to how this occurred).

What does the Bible teach about Jesus?

Biblically, the description of Jesus as the “only begotten” refers to his being the Father’s unique, one-of-a-kind Son for all eternity, with the same divine nature as the Father (see note on John 1:14; cf. John 1:18; 3:16, 18; see also John 5:18; 10:30). Moreover, he is eternal deity (John 1:1; 8:58) and is immutable (Heb. 1:10–12; 13:8), meaning he did not progress to deity but has always been God. And Mary’s conception of Jesus in his humanity was through a miracle of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20).

What do Mormons believe about our eternal destiny?

Mormons believe that most people will end up in one of three kingdoms of glory, depending on one’s level of faithfulness. Belief in Christ, or even in God, is not necessary to obtain immortality in one of these three kingdoms, and therefore only the most spiritually perverse will go to hell.

What does the Bible teach about our eternal destiny ?

The Bible teaches that people have just two possibilities for their eternal futures: the saved will enjoy eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth (Phil. 3:20; Rev. 21:1–4; 22:1–5), while the unsaved will spend eternity in hell (Matt. 25:41, 46; Rev. 20:13–15).

What do Mormons believe about sin and atonement?

Mormons believe that Adam’s transgression was a noble act that made it possible for humans to become mortal, a necessary step on the path to exaltation to godhood. They think that Christ’s atonement secures immortality for virtually all people, whether they repent and believe or not.

What does the Bible teach about sin and atonement?

Biblically, there was nothing noble about Adam’s sin, which was not a stepping-stone to godhood but rather brought nothing but sin, misery, and death to mankind (Gen. 3:16–19; Rom. 5:12–14). Jesus atoned for the sins of all who would trust him for salvation (Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 2:2; 4:10).

What do Mormons believe about salvation?

Mormons believe that God gives to (virtually) everyone a general salvation to immortal life in one of the heavenly kingdoms, which is how they understand salvation by grace. Belief in Christ is necessary only to obtain passage to the highest, celestial kingdom—for which not only faith but participation in Mormon temple rituals and obedience to its “laws of the gospel” are also prerequisites.

What does the Bible teach about salvation?

Biblically, salvation by grace must be received through faith in Christ (John 3:15–16; 11:25; 12:46; Acts 16:31; Rom. 3:22–24; Eph. 2:8–9), and all true believers are promised eternal life in God’s presence (Matt. 5:3–8; John 14:1–3; Rev. 21:3–7).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2019 07:26AM by anybody.

If we go back to early Christianity, what happened is that the Vatican won. A few groups like the Nestorians of Central Asia and Ethiopian churches managed to keep their doctrines due to remoteness, but the Vatican's victory cannot be denied.

Rome essentially decided what went in the Bible and what didn't, which doctrines it deemed acceptable and which it didn't. Even among the Protestants who dropped many Roman doctrines such as Mariolatory and devotion to saints, some of these doctrines persisted.

Early Christianity had a huge range of beliefs, and yes, some early Christian groups were polytheist. Some even believed that the Gods of the Old and New Testament were different.

Even before the coucils of Nicaea et, we find Paul changing Christian doctrine and fitting it to his own ends.

So Mormonism might be that cousin that the rest of the family shuns, but s/he's still a close relative.

But according to Christian theology as they define it Mormonism is not the same religion.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But according to Christian theology as they define
> it Mormonism is not the same religion.

Go back to early Christianity - there was a lot of debate about the nature of Christ, the trinity etc. It was not all done and dusted and even the Bible is not as clear cut as some would make out it is...

One version of Christianity won out, got to pick the scriptures, and the doctrines, developed creeds for Christians to chant etc. But just because it won, doesn't make it the only interpretation.

To most people in the world, "football" means "soccer". But does that mean American football, Aussie rules, Gaelic or rugby are not football? Of course not, and in some places football would refer to other sports. Christianity is the same - FIFA (soccer's governing body) is the football equivalent of the Vatican, but it doesn't get to decide gridiron isn't a form of foltball, anymore than the Vatican gets to say Quakers are not Christian or Jehovah's Witnesses, even though their practises are radically different.

The RCs and the Eastern Orthodox are the biggest churches out there. But the way they revere Mary is most of the way to being a goddess and completely unbiblical and mixed up with paganism. But are they Christian? Of course they are!

Some Protestants like Kenneth Copeland seem to worship money as much as Jesus. Is he Christian? Well, he may be a bad Christian, but he's still a Christian.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But according to Christian theology as they define
> it Mormonism is not the same religion.

Who are "they," and what gives them authority to define anything?

I'll go through each of these points briefly.

Firstly, the website presumes the Bible does not contradict itself - this is demonstrably not true. The lineages of Jesus given in Matthew and Luke are entirely different, and why would they give his lineage anyway, if his father was not Joseph?

Secondly, there was big debate about what would and would not go in the Bible - many Christians have opposed books such as Song of Songs, Revelation etc getting in. The Apocrypha has been removed by most Protestants and Orthodox churches have their own extra books. Works such as the Gospel of Thomas were rejected, and the Bible itself refers ro books not collected in it - Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees etc.

Early Judaism shows signs of henotheism. And polytheism - Elohim is a plural noun.

"
What’s the problem with this understanding [of Apostasy]?"

Protestants believe the Catholic church became utterly corrupted and added doctrines. The Orthodox Church believes Catholics are corrupt. Even rhe Catholics believed heresy has crept in and stamped it out by force. All a matter of degree.

"What does the Bible teach about the nature of God?"

Not the simple pic painted here. God is described as having hands and hair in the Bible. We are also described as being made in his image.

"Biblically, the description of Jesus as the “only begotten” refers to his being the Father’s unique, one-of-a-kind Son for all eternity, with the same divine nature as the Father"

And yet they pray to "our father"!

The "same divine nature as the Father"? Why did Jesus pray in Gethsamene and on the cross as if to a separate person?

They are "Christian" only in the sense that they use the name of
Christ.

That's true for the majority of people who call themselves Christians.

notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are "Christian" only in the sense that they
> use the name of
> Christ.

Mormons believe the following:
* Jesus is the messiah.
* Jesus died for our sins.
* Jesus is the son of God the Father.
* Jesus is part of the Godhead.

All of these are distinctively Christian IMHO.

I understand that LDS are way off the mainstream but I would still include rhem as Christian. If JS had lived even longer, I suspect they would have diverged further.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> notmonotloggedin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They are "Christian" only in the sense that
> they
> > use the name of
> > Christ.
>
> Mormons believe the following:
> * Jesus is the messiah.
> * Jesus died for our sins.
> * Jesus is the son of God the Father.
> * Jesus is part of the Godhead.
>
> All of these are distinctively Christian IMHO.

You've done what Mormons do in that you've used the same terms an orthodox Christian would use but they have different meaning. Terms such as "messiah", "died for our sins", "God the Father" and "Godhead" have been appropriated from mainline Christianity but have been given different meanings.

The Mormon Jesus:

Was once a man who progressed to Godhood (although I've never understood his relationship to "Heavenly Father" in the Mormon scheme of things-shouldn't he rate his own world instead of acting as an "underling"?)

Is one of an infinite number of Gods who also progressed.

Is a created being and the brother of Lucifer

These are just a few points that clearly make the Mormon Jesus significantly different than that of orthodoxy.

They aren't the same person.

But lust is evil ;)

This is hard to admit, but I'm going to have to agree with Jordan on this one.

Christians are simply people who follow the teachings of Christ. Mormons are just Mormon type of Christians, just as there are Catholic types and Methodist types and Baptist types and Jehovah's Witness types. None of these types believe in the exact same kind of Jesus.

I'm just as much ex-Christian as I am ex-Mormon.

It's all BS, so I don't really understand why there's any argument.

I use a standard to measure how Christian a denomination is:

The New Testament.

In your Denomination:
(1)How many barriers are there between the individual and Christ, found on the pages of the NT?
(2)How many extra-textual doctrines are in your denomination?

The fewer barriers and extra-textual doctrines, the more Christian is your denomination.

I know, this gives the Proto-Orthodox a leg up over the Ebionites, the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the other groups such as Ethiopian, Maronite etc. but for someone living in the West, I think it is useful.

By this standard, I think Roman Catholicism and Mormonism are barely Christian.

"None of these types believe in the exact same kind of Jesus."

RCs see him as a mainly visual figure with a huge sacred heart, or at the twelve stations of the cross. Their Jesus is ritualistic and based on suffering, but with a good relationship with his mother.

Pentecostals see him as everybody's friend, bringing love into the world and happiness, sometimes money too.

Quakers see him as the epicenter of peace and wisdom.

Anglicans see him as whatever they want to see him as, as long as we all recognize the essential truths and the oneness of the church (and maybe other religions).

Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinists see him as the terrible judge of the world.

Westboro Baptist Church thinks he hates everyone but a few hundred people, and considers everyone else homosexuals.

I appreciate Jordan bringing to this discussion knowledge of modern scholarship on the Bible and early Christianity.

Jordan rattles off the names of many sects and heretical groups, and demonstrates varying degrees of knowledge--but not understanding. What he has to offer falls far short of "scholarship."

Bascally, it's ecumenicism run amuck: "You call yourself 'Christian?' Hey, if you say you're a 'Christian,' then that's good enough for me!"

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" Matthew 7:21-23 ESV

I've always hated that scripture. The Lord sounds like a judgmental a hole!

If you don't worship just right, that "loving" Lord shuts you out. Nice.

Beware of Christians who claim to be inclusive, but really aren't. Mormons get to make up whatever they want about Jesus just like everyone else, IMO. They may be weird fringe Christians, but to me they are Christians. I certainly accepted Jesus when I was a Mormon.

There's an entire book, Dagny, "The Hard Sayings of Jesus." It goes over the "Pick up your Cross and follow me," "Let the dead bury their dead," "Hate your father and mother" (we had a long thread on that one!), "Sell all that you have..."

I'm not about to dissect those, you get the point. Christ preached love, but also to hate the things (and by extension) the people who hurt, mislead and deceive people. You know, false prophets?

In the case of the Matthew 7, we might consider it in the context of wolves in sheep clothing, tares among the wheat, Pharisees (ritualists), money changers (religious profiteers), Sadducees (legalists), hypocrites and so on. These, and many others, infest and infect the Church,* while thinking -- or at least proclaiming -- their identification as "Christian" to the embarrassment of believers.

As Anybody articulated above (great job!), Christ preached an eternal separation between the saved and the lost (which Mormonism denies). In Matthew 7, He issues a clear-cut warning to both cynical, self-serving deceivers--and SELF-deceivers.

Like I said, He sounds like an a hole sometimes. He could communicate better about why He needs to be such a controlling but invisible absolutist who will "separate" (aka kill off) the ones who don't do things His way. ("You didn't preach in my name! Waaah! You don't get eternal life!")

God, knowing in advance, created "sinners" to pimp around. He apparently thought it was fine to expect them to read a questionable book and have his followers boss each other around and help judge each other. This sounds suspiciously like something humans would make up to me. Just who is self-serving and self-deceived?

You said "Christ preached an eternal separation between the saved and the lost (which Mormonism denies)."
I didn't learn that as a Mormon. It was clear to me as a Mormon you would not be with God if you didn't follow His rules. So, this also shows another reason they are compatible with fringe Christianity.

It won't be long before Mormons start using creepy judgmental Christian words like "saved" and "lost" like you did. These are not concepts from a god of love and inclusion, IMO.

Mormons are trying to spin the trinity and make God sound loving and not psychotic, just like many other Christians. In defense of Mormons, I think maybe they are trying to be Christian as much as some of those mega preachers.

That is a very simplistic view of what many Christians believe.You seem to still think with the.Mormon/Fundie mindset which leaves no room for nuance or metaphor. All Christiansnare not Biblical literalists and The New Testament didnt come into being, at least in the modern sense,until Constantine's time.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bascally, it's ecumenicism run amuck: "You call
> yourself 'Christian?' Hey, if you say you're a
> 'Christian,' then that's good enough for me!"

No, ecumenism is when you want all churches to be united. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the def of Xianity has been narrowed.

I think Mormonism - even if it adds and is fake - is Christian. A lot of the major churches out there add doctrine or have dubious interpretations.

As I said above Mormons may be heretical, but it is still Christian in certain senses. LDS are more Christian than its opponents give credit for, and less Christian than some of the TBMs think.

> “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
> will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who
> does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On
> that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did
> we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons
> in your name, and do many mighty works in your
> name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I
> never knew you; depart from me, you workers of
> lawlessness.’" Matthew 7:21-23 ESV

My personal interpretation of that verse is not to do with which denomination you are in but your sincerity and behavior. We see a lot of Christian evangelists who preach Jesus and go off and do awful things.

Jordan Wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------cc
> > Ecumenism is when you want all churches to be
> united.

Not necessarily ecclesiastical unity, but consider doctrinal unity. That can only be accomplished by reducing Christian doctrine to the lowest common denominator. Discarding essential teachings such as the nature of God ("God was once a man") lie outside the pale of Christian teaching. Identifying obscure ancient sects that may have had similar beliefs does not support that. It is because of widely, even strangely, divergent (mis)understandings of Jesus and His Gospel that councils came together to iron out differences, identify trustworthy records, and yes, identify heretics (Oh! How intolerant!) as such.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Rom. 16:17-18)

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is
> that the def of Xianity has been narrowed...I think Mormonism - even if it adds and is fake- is Christian.

So how much addition and fake teachings/practices can you embrace and still be a Christian? Can I claim that some space-alien Jesus is my lord and savior and still be a Christian? According to your criteria, yes.
>
> LDS are more Christian than its opponents give credit for, and
> less Christian than some of the TBMs think.

Use of Christian terminology ("trinity," "salvation") and mimicry of Christian doctrine does not make them "more Christian" at all.
>
> We see a lot of Christian evangelists who preach Jesus and go off and do awful things.

True. And Christians need to call out the imposters and fraudsters, just as Christ called out the Pharisees, Sadducees, and money changers for their false teachings and financial chicanery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 02:08PM by caffiend.

Mormonism is horizontal monotheism and Evangelism is mainly vertical monotheism in my opinion.

God-Jesus-HG

God
|
HG
|
Jesus

This is why it is so irritating to Evangelicals that Jesus and Satan would be related as siblings.

This is actually a really good way of looking at it. I would out HG at the bottom though.

Mormons worship Heavenly Father, through the other two. They are certainly not polytheist in the way that Hindus or Shintoists are. If any people get veneration who are not in the godhead then that would be church presidents.

I almost put HG there but my Pentecostal friend talks about The Holy Spirit as now more active post Jesus because somehow when God became Jesus HG was floating around and then Jesus was resurrected back into God but is somehow with God and they both make HG fly around? I don't quite understand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2019 02:00PM by Elder Berry.

Pentecostals are very focused on the whole Holy Ghost/Spirit thing. Pentecostals are very experential and emphasize it/him/her a lot. They talk a lot about Jesus but feeling the spirit is where it's at.

I suppose we could divide up Christianity according to which part of the trinity/godhead it emphasizes most. I think Mormons fall into the Father camp.

And like Pentecostals they talk about Jesus lots.

Muslims believe Jesus is real are they Christians too? Jesus is NOT my Brother. Mormon church - oh yes I said THE MORMON CHURCH does teach that Jesus is our older brother. Again, Mormons are NOT Christians.

Interesting, if pointless discussion. IMHO, there is not a dime's worth of real difference between Mo Jesus and Cath Jesus and Protestant Jesus, especially now that Mormons are not getting their own planet anymore (wink wink nudge nudge)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

The goal of Mormonism from the very beginning was...and still is...profit.

Add into the mix political influence as well,

Far right religious extremism is the in thing now and the Brethren want in on the action.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 01:16AM by anybody.

anybody Wrote:
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> The goal of Mormonism from the very beginning
> was...and still is...profit.
>
> Add into the mix political influence as well,

Both of these can be found in abundance in other churches. Especially prosperity gospel, which contradicts the more "slave morality" aspects of Christianity (as Nietzsche called them), with the emphasis on poverty...

Whatever your personal opinion on the matter, it remains that the Jesus of the Bible and historical Christian orthodoxy is significantly different than the Jesus the Mormons believe in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

Reminds me of Gulliver's Travels. The one people ate their eggs one way and the people on another island another way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 10:44AM by Elder Berry.

It reminds me of the Sneetches with and without stars on their bellies and of the Yooks and Zooks who argued about whether bread should be eaten with the butter side up or down.

Thank goodness I haven't wasted brain cells learning the info in this thread.

Might as well argue over who the true believers are in Santa Claus.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank goodness I haven't wasted brain cells
> learning the info in this thread.
>
> Might as well argue over who the true believers
> are in Santa Claus.

Saint Nicholas you mean. And he is a Christian figure originally...

The only religious movements, of any size, that are as batshit crazy as Mormonism is the J-Dubs and the Evangelical Christians. I guess it is now shocker that the idiot church wants to more like the mainstream nutters.

Red Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only religious movements, of any size, that
> are as batshit crazy as Mormonism is the J-Dubs
> and the Evangelical Christians. I guess it is now
> shocker that the idiot church wants to more like
> the mainstream nutters.

The New Age? Not so much a movement as a miasma of contradictory ideas, often with dangerous overtones

Scientology says hello.

Because church management wants mainstream acceptance.

Pretty simple, really.

Mormonism is at a crossroads
The road leading to the cross
But they can't/ won't see it
Since chickens can't cross roads

It wants to model itself on noble deeds, altruistic living, and pure thoughts, but it can't, because of its segregation, and separation, and sullied Future - and Past - (doctrine & preaching) possibilities regarding HONEST, loving and equality practices, good values, goals, and intentions to/ for/ with all.

Mormonism ONLY Wants to SAVE ITSELF.

The devil is in the details.
Mormonism details this daily.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2019 12:35PM by moremany.

WAY too much PREACHING in this post.

I'm VERY TIRED of reading posts that post bible verses and are preachy... it's actually against the board rules.

If you are thinking of quoting scripture (for any reason) in this board... DON'T. THAT IS PREACHING.

Mods please zap this post, or at least lock it so it can die.

Report it, but there is no rule against quoting scripture. This sounds more like a discussion than.preaching. We are allowed to say what we believe if we are not preaching it as divine truth. Everyone here is not an atheist and the atheists preach too. If you dont like threads, skip them



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2019 12:37AM by bona dea.