Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 10:34AM

I was wondering if anyone had information on the 'gay conversion' therapy that goes on at BYU. From what I understand it is 'voluntary'(meaning you go through the therapy or are forcibly outed to your family and bishop). If I am not mistaken, there are patents (available online with a quick google search) through BYU's psychology department. The process of 'gay conversion' aka torture, involves having electrodes attached to genitalia and nipples. The individual is then shown pornography some of which is same-sex and some of which is heterosexual. While the individual watches same-sex pornography the electrodes monitor blood flow indicative of arousal and if this is present an electric shock is administered. While the individual watches heterosexual pornography, a calm serene environment is created. Does anyone have any information about this? I am gay and went to BYU for a year (until I couldn't take the toxicity anymore). As an openly gay woman and human rights advocate this type of coercion and torture needs to be brought to the forefront. I would be more than happy to do so with the right amount of evidence.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 10:35AM

I'm sorry I wasn't clear but the patents are for the devices used to administer the electrical shock and monitor blood flow.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 10:43AM

This goes on at BYU...like now? Today?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:11AM

I have done q bit of research and have information that it does still happen but there is also information to the contrary. From what I understand inducing vomiting was also used and may still be used. These 'treatments' take place in the basement of the psychology building.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700&singlePage=true

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1u3K43P-3JoY2Q5NDY3ZjYtNWUyMi00YWJiLWFhM2EtYTE4MjViNWVjOGEz/view?sort=name&layout=list&num=50&pli=1

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:32AM

cntbquiet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have done q bit of research and have information that it does still happen

Not buying it. Lets see that info you have that gay conversion therapy (with electrodes, pornography, etc.) is still going on at BYU.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:58AM

Jaxson,

I must admit I am a bit surprised by the contentious undertones in your reply. May I ask what evidence you require outside of what has been posted by members in this thread?

To be blunt buy it, don't buy it, sell it, steal it, trade it, throw it on the floor and set it on fire; none of it negates the fact that BYU and the majority of LDS advocate the cruel treatment of anyone deemed too 'different'. I would be happy to share my personal experience being forced into 'Mormon therapy' as a child and the damage it did if that would help you accept the truth.

This organization has a history of hate and intolerance. They have opposed equality and civil rights every step of the way.

By all means, if you want to know my story or want more evidence let me know.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 12:47PM

You are making an assertion that seems unreasonable given what we know. He's asking for your evidence, which is perfectly appropriate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 01:04PM

Lot's Wife,

As I clearly stated I am more than happy to provide that. Just to make sure everyone is on the same page my post read that I had done quite a bit of research and there is information available indicating it does still take place and there is information to the contrary. At no point did I make an assertion. I posted a question... asking for information. If I wanted scrutiny I would walk into a sacrament meeting wearing stilettos, a pencil skirt, and a pride tie.

I am also a bit curious about the term 'we'. Who, pray tell, is we? Seems there is still a little bit of groupthink going on and maybe a need for belonging, a touch of cattiness, and some self-righteousness. Sound familiar?

So if you don't want to be helpful feel free to excuse your self and eat your crusty piece of bread torn barehanded by a hormonal, sexually repressed teenage boy who took an extra long shower before church and drink your tiny cup of holy water. Thanks though.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 01:52PM

By definition, if you have evidence that we don't, there is a "we" element to the discussion. You can hardly come here and say "I have evidence but I expect you to agree with me before I present it."

As for the rest of your post, well, that's just petulance.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 02:40PM

Hmmm... Petulance.... I like your word choice.

I underwent electroshock therapy 6 years ago. Yes, it involved the Mormon church. I can't prove the church's direct involvement or I would have by now believe me. 12 treatments. One a week for 3 months. I am 31 years old and my memory is fried. The only reason I am here is to try and gain as much information as I can so I can be prepared to protect my niece and nephew as they are raised in that church. I would die if they felt the way I did/do because of that church. No one should hate themselves the way that church made me hate myself. No one should be told to repent for being raped as a child.

So Lot's Wife help or keep your thoughts and negativity to yourself. I have had enough negativity for two lifetimes because of that godforsaken cult. If people like you are what I'm going to deal with asking for help here I don't belong here.

My evidence is my experience. You want it, you got it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 02:41PM

Still no evidence. In fact, you just acknowledged that you have no evidence.


> I underwent electroshock therapy 6 years ago. Yes,
> it involved the Mormon church. I can't prove the
> church's direct involvement or I would have by now
> believe me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 02:59PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: July 12, 2019 09:35AM

The church and BYU does not readily admit to this "therapy". When I was a BYU student in the late 80's I knew men who went through this. They all signed documents that said they voluntarily agreed to the therapy, so BYU and the church were not liable. Anecdotal evidence aside - you can google it

http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/electroshock-therapy-at-byu.htm

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 12, 2019 11:31AM

Yes, I am aware of that.

What I question is that it continued into the 2010s. I haven't seen any reports besides the OP of it happening later than the 1980s.

It may have, but I'd like to see confirmation.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 03:15PM

cntbquiet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> majority of LDS advocate the cruel treatment of
> anyone deemed too 'different'.

I'm skeptical that conversion is going on at BYU. It might be but I doubt you would find any evidence here at RfM of it currently going on at BYU.

But as the "majority of LDS advocate" statement. That pool is plenty deluded but I beg to differ that their majority advocates cruel treatment of people too different without qualification. It is just too broad a brush stroke. It sounds "us" and "them" generally applied. Lots of Mormons are not nice. Lots of Mormon things are not nice. But a majority of Mormons advocating "cruel treatment" sounds like Mormons are going to gather up arms and start fighting for their right to spit on gay people publicly. That isn't going to happen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dorothy ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 05:24PM

The first link is from 2011 and refers to practices in the past. The second link is a 113 page document from 1976.

I didn’t read the entire thread. Did any evidence show up exposing recent conversion “therapy”?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 05:35PM

Here's a sad perspective: the church, i.e., BYU, is on record denying the existence of any record of gay conversion therapy atrocities at BYU.

So if such practices continued, one has to assume that the lying would continue.

If they could document that it worked, we'd all be hearing about it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 05:46PM

Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did any evidence show up exposing recent conversion “therapy”?

Nope

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 10:43AM

I'm pretty sure that there is no gay conversion going on at the Y currently, involving the means you describe. It'd be great if it were, in the sense that the outrage that could be harnessed would be very, very useful.

Here's my best source of information, which contains references to more thorough reviews:

http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html

Yes, it's not a secure site, but I think it's worth the risk. His account of 'Gayety' in the mormon church is both complete and entertaining.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:06AM

If a program like that were being sponsored by BYU's psychology department it would be very hard if not impossible to keep it covert and contained as 'top secret' because someone would be leaking it to the press or the public.

It is too clandestine a research program and from the sounds of it involves torture and physical abuse of its subjects. So I doubt very much it would be a study approved by the psychology department @ BYU or any other school that doesn't want to get sued up the wazoo. The potential for liability lawsuits would be incredibly enormous for any university department to take on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:40AM

Amyjo, what happened is that the students who were forced to participate in the program all signed the necessary paperwork to preclude them from filing lawsuits. It was worse than a Hobson's choice. Please keep in mind, none of the following is original from me. It's all from the "Crimes Against Nature" dissertation.

The pronoun "I" in the following is Connell O'Donovan, the author:


Shocking Events at the Y

On September 5, 1935, New York University professor Dr. Louis W. Max informed a meeting of the American Psychological Association (APA) that he has successfully treated a "partially fetishistic" homosexual neurosis with electric shock therapy delivered at "intensities considerably higher than those usually employed on human subjects," the first documented instance of aversion therapy used to "cure" homosexuality. (Note that the APA's 2007 Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation has concluded that "efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm.")

As far as I can tell, the earliest experiments with aversive therapies at BYU to "cure" homosexuality date to the mid-1960s and were spearheaded by D. Eugene Thorne, head of BYU's Psychology Dept. By 1968, he had gained enough information to report his findings from BYU in a paper given in San Francisco that year for the annual convention of the American Psychological Association.

Then in 1969, school administration became more careful in its use of controversial therapies for treating "sexual deviancy" as they put it. The administration publicly claimed that use of such therapies had been curtailed but unofficially they continued unabated. BYU's Academic Vice President, Robert Thomas, advised college deans to alert those who were using aversive therapies to be "particularly cautious in utilizing them" not because they might prove harmful per se, but out of fear for lawsuits.

In 1975, the BYU Psychology Department administrators organized a Board of Review for Psychotherapeutic Techniques to recommend "policies governing the use of sensitive treatment techniques" on campus. Within a year, the review board had assembled a list of eight therapies being used at BYU which "could conflict" with church teachings. However, most of the therapies were not stopped (including electric shock, vomiting aversion, and the use of pornographic materials).

Gary Bergera interviewed Gerald Dye, chair of the University Standards office, in February 1978, and Dye reported what the "set process" was for "homosexual students referred to Standards" for counseling:

They are asked to a personal interview with Standards...to determine the depth or extent of involvement; previous involvement, if any, of the offender; does the student understand the seriousness of the matter; if the branch president or bishop [is] aware. The individual's branch president or home bishop is contacted.

Standards is to determine if the offense is serious or not:

a. serious: repetition; anal/oral intercourse.
b. less serious: experimential [sic]; mutual masturbation.

Action taken:

If determined to be serious, the student is expelled.

If less serious, the student may remain at BYU on a probationary basis.

Standards also acts as an intermediary between the student who remains and counseling service; Students who remain are required to undergo therapy.

Although "therapy" was required for homosexual students, Dye promised Bergera that "no student working through Standards will ever undergo aversion therapy". Electric shock and vomiting aversion therapies were nonetheless used in special cases.


Max Ford McBride's Ph.D. dissertation, completed in August 1976 under the direction of BYU psychology professor D. Eugene Thorne (note that Dr. I. Reed Payne, of the "Payne Papers" infamy, was also on his dissertation committee), is an excellent example of clinical dehumanization practiced by Mormon "therapists". In the Mormon worldview, the end certainly justifies the means: heterosexuality must be attained and maintained AT ANY COST - even if it means using pornography (which the Mormon Church is usually vehemently opposed to) and physical torture.

Under the oversight of his committee chairman, Dr. Thorne, McBride experimented on fourteen Gay male subjects to determine if using photographs of nude men and women from Playgirl- and Playboy-type magazines were helpful in electric shock therapy.

The 14 Gay BYU students in McBride's study were compared after being "treated" on an out-patient basis during 22 sessions of shock therapy. Each of the 22 sessions lasted 50 minutes. 10 of those minutes were spent in "assertive training" and the remaining 40 minutes in "aversive conditioning." The average duration of treatment for the men was three months. The release form these men were required to sign informed them that "damage to tissue or organs may occur," that they would be looking at "sensitive materials" possibly contrary to their values [ie. pornography], and that BYU would be released from any responsibility for any damage done to them.

The longterm effects of the electric shock "therapy" these men were subjected to has been crippling. Two of the men committed suicide soon after completing this torturous study. Every survivor I have interviewed has suffered life-long emotional, spiritual, and sometimes physical damage.

In 1999, John Cameron, one of the 14 men who went through this horrific experience in 1976 when he was a 23 year old BYU student and member of the Young Ambassadors, wrote to me, "For 22 years now I have lived with the scars of the experience - unable to articulate a personal suffering and longing that have almost crippled me....I didn't completely come out of the closet until I was 34, and only after much angry, pissed-off therapy. I spent a lot of money just so I could yell at my psychologist and break things in his office for an hour every week for two years. But it was a hell of a lot more fun than Ford McBride and the electrodes."

A Gay psychology intern at BYU named Ray actually assisted in giving electric shock therapy to fellow Gay men in the late 1970s. In an interview he did for Sean Weakland's documentary on aversive therapies at BYU called Legacies, Ray gave the following report on his activities and their results (which I quote here extensively because Ray has so much "insider" knowledge):

"A lot of times BYU security would catch people in compromising positions on campus. Those people would have the choice to either be kicked out of school and have their families notified about what they had done or they could go through this therapy. We had quite a few people who were going through it. There were others in the therapy who felt so much guilt for being the way they were or they had been promised that if they underwent the therapy they would be able to marry and have children and they would be turned. Of course, they had to have the desire to change, and if the therapy failed (which it always did), it was their fault for the failure since they didn't have enough desire.

"Anyway, they would come in usually three times a week. I would be behind a glass one-way mirror, and they would be on the other side of it. They had their choice to look at pornographic magazines or watch porno videos. We would tape electrodes to their groin, thigh, chest, and armpits. We had another machine that would monitor their breathing and heart rate. If there was a difference in their heart rate when looking at homosexual pornography, we would turn a dial which would send a current to shock them. If they were a new patient, we would use a very low current. From the reaction that I saw there were muscle spasms which looked very painful.

"After that was over, we would switch the pornography over so that it was a man and a woman having sex, and we would play very soothing music in the background to try and get the mind to relate to that. For the people that had been doing the therapy longer we turned the voltage way up so that you could see burn marks on the skin and quite often they would also throw up during the therapy. This is speculation, but most of the students at BYU probably hadn't even seen pornography before.

"After undergoing that kind of pain over a number of months, everyone said that they had completely changed. They kept records for as long as the people were at BYU. After they had graduated, there were no records kept to see what kind of success rate they had. The BYU statistics were wrong because the people were lying. They were desperate to get their degree and get out of the situation. They had been blackmailed into the situation in the first place.

"We did have some people who became completely asexual after undergoing the therapy. But no, we never changed anyone from gay to straight...We had several people who committed suicide during the therapy. We had three different people who hung themselves in the Harris Fine Arts Center on BYU campus."

In the late 1970s, Carol Lynn Pearson, a famous Mormon poet whose husband Gerald Pearson was Gay, met one of Gerald's Gay friends at BYU named Sam. Sam told Carol Lynn that "they strapped me in a chair and attached wires to me. Then they showed me porno movies of men in sexual activity. When I got turned on, they gave me a shock." At first, they just shocked his hands. "After that, they added my forearms, and then my calves and thighs. That was when they started cranking up the voltage. I had to go in two or three times a week...Only it didn't work. All I wanted was not to touch anybody, not to be with anybody. I felt like I was being turned into a zombie. I would walk down the street and be freaked by everyone. The idea of touching anyone, even my family, made me sick." After enduring several "treatments", Sam started to question his participation in his own torture. "I made myself walk up those steps and go into that building and sit down in that chair. And take the shocks. Until I gave up...There were burns on my arms but inside there was nothing different. Nothing! Just more pain." Sam left and never went back.

Later, Sam told Gerald and Carol Lynn Pearson about another Gay BYU student named John who had committed suicide after going through electric shock treatments at BYU. After leaving BYU both Sam and John had decided to move to Los Angeles together, although just as friends, not lovers. "We were going to drop everything and go make a new life. [John] told that to the General Authority that was on his case, and the man told him he'd be better off at the bottom of the Great Salt Lake with a millstone tied around his neck than to stay a homosexual. John believed him. He believed everything they said to him. He drove back to Provo, told his roommates he was going to the laundromat, drove up Rock Canyon, laid out a blanket, and blew his brains out." Sam fared almost as badly as John. In 1981, after leaving a Gay bar in San Francisco, without any warning he was attacked in a vicious anti-Gay hate crime by two young men wielding a crowbar. He nearly died when they smashed his head in. Sam went through five major surgeries and $70,000 in plastic surgery to re-piece his face together again. He was also blinded in one eye, which was replaced by a glass eye.

I also personally recall an Affirmation meeting in 1988 when a man showed up calling himself only David. He sat alone in a corner during our meeting and became extremely jittery when anyone approached him. I spoke with him but he requested that I remain at least six feet in distance away from him. He then rolled up his shirt sleeves and showed me his arms. The deeply-scarred skin on the inside of his arms looked like raw hamburger and I almost vomited from the sight. He informed me that he had participated in electric shock therapy at BYU in 1977 and had been allowed to turn up the voltage as high as he wanted to. The results were badly burned arms and a complete inability to come physically close to any male without him emotionally breaking down from the trauma. His homosexual desires were as strong as ever but he was unable to touch another man even for a simple hug, he had no heterosexual desires whatsoever, and he was constantly on the verge of suicide.

David never returned to Affirmation and I suspect from his fragile emotional state that he did not survive his ordeal for much longer. I also met two Lesbians in 1990 at the Gay Pride festivities in Salt Lake who claimed that they had also gone through electric shock therapy at BYU in the 1970s but I was not able to conduct a formal interview and we lost contact. That is the only knowledge I have of women being subjected to this torturous treatment at the hands of so-called therapists.

Another Gay BYU student named Randy Smith went through aversion therapy at BYU in the late 1970s, but when it failed to make him heterosexual, he was excommunicated and expelled from the school. Disillusioned by his treatment by the church and school, in 1981 he organized a protest against the LDS Church during its semiannual conference in October. After he got legal permits to do so, he and 16 other protesters marched around Temple Square with signs and banners protesting the unethical treatment of Gays by the Mormon Church and then held a press conference, calling for the end of aversion therapies. Almost all Mormons present simply ignored the vocal protest in their midst.

Dr. Eugene Thorne's career after BYU has continued to be controversial. Thorne became co-owner and Executive Director of the Provo Canyon School (for severely "troubled teens") in March of 1979. In Milonas v. Williams, two students named Timothy Milonas Jr. and Kenneth Rice sued Provo Canyon School administrators, including D. Eugene Thorne, for causing Milonas, Rice, and other students at the school to "suffer and to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, anti-therapeutic and inhumane treatment, and denial of due process of law."

The school (and Dr. Thorne) were found guilty of violating the students' First and Fourteenth Amendment rights by monitoring and censoring student mail, using isolation rooms unnecessarily, and using physical force to coerce behavior modification. The guilty verdict was appealed but the rehearing was denied by the Court of Appeals on November 9, 1982. Despite being successfully sued for inhumane treatment of students, Thorne left the Provo Canyon School and became director of the Discovery Academy, a school similar to Provo Canyon School, but located in the city of Provo itself. Dr. Ford McBride is also currently in practice in Provo, Utah.

In April 1997 I made a call for BYU to admit what had been done to these people, apologize, and make financial reparations to them. However despite the massive evidence to the contrary, Merrill Joseph Bateman, then President of BYU and a high ranking LDS General Authority, issued a statement to me via email on April 9, 1997 in response to my call, indicating that, "we have not been able to verify your assertion that electric shock therapy...was ever used on gay and lesbian students at BYU."

At least a dozen other people over the course of several years thereafter received similar denials from Bateman or his office, when they have contacted him about this issue. To my knowledge, Bateman has never retracted his denial. Bateman is currently a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.



Again, the source is http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:11AM

There was a house in St George where LDS parents were sending their children to be de-programmed from their gay orientation as what you describe "conversion therapy" that has since closed and gone out of practice because of its abusive tactics.

The church' official stance on that per a news article on the subject is "The Church denounces any therapy that subjects an individual to abusive practices," said LDS spokesman Eric Hawkins.

https://kutv.com/news/local/new-book-details-lds-teens-humiliating-gay-conversion-therapy-in-utah

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:19AM

Amyjo,

Thank you so much for the link and your response. From what I understand the program wasn't forced upon students per se. It was an option besides expulsion and release of information to family/home ward. Gay conversion therapy is still legal in some states and parents are able to send their children to these programs. I am not entirely sure how much liability would be on the university if those receiving the treatment were adequately informed of the process and signed waivers and consent forms. This is especially true during the research phase of this treatment method. All subjects signed up voluntarily and were completely aware of what was happening. I think what sticks with me about this whole issue is that the culture at BYU causes people to become so filled with shame they are willing to sign up for programs like this.

It is absolutely inhumane, unethical, and barbaric.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:37AM

It sounds horrible. The young woman in the link above was forced into it by her parents, in St George. She brought it to the attention of her guidance counselor or someone at her high school, and they were able to bring an end to the abuse and get her out of there.

That house is closed from what I've been able to surmise. It needed to be.

If there is anything going on presently at BYU, then it would open the school up to tremendous liability lawsuits that it wouldn't dare cross that threshold. This is the "Me Too" era no less. Whatever is done in the darkness will be made transparent in the light of day in this day and age. TSCC doesn't dare do something that would cost it millions upon millions (look at the Catholic lawsuits still being settled in the courts ongoing for child pedophilia.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 11:38AM by Amyjo.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: shylock ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:41AM

First off it is a well known fact you cannot change someones sexual orientation... the shame that these programs harness cause many suicides... the church needs to get current and just accept that fact and move on!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 11:50AM

I lost a cousin to suicide in 2015 in Pocatello because she was gay. Only 15 years old, she was bullied so much by her peers and classmates at her high school. Even her teachers gave her a hard time because of her sexual orientation. Her mother has gone on to become a state advocate for civil rights for the state of Idaho since then. Her daughter's death has changed the trajectory for the rest of her life.

Her daughter was a beautiful young woman, with everything to look forward to. The young men in her class at Pocatello High school were rebuffed when they asked her out because they felt snubbed by her. She looked like a young Olivia Newton-John. Those snarly little Mormon kids were too much for her sensitive soul. The Mormons don't get what's wrong with that picture. They instill homophobia in their children. She grew up LDS. She couldn't change her sexual orientation if she wanted to.

We know she's in a better place than here. It's the survivors that have to keep on for her sake now, and others like her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 11:51AM by Amyjo.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cntbquiet ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 12:04PM

Amyjo,

My heart breaks for your niece and for you and your family. I agree that the fight is still ongoing. I for one will not give up until our children can be their true selves. I lost a friend to suicide 2 years ago this month. She was born male and into the church. She began to live as a female and was a beautiful woman and a beautiful soul. She drove across the country and took her life in a parking lot. The amount of hate hurled at her by the church and the world, in general, was too much. She had a small child who will never know how amazing and funny she was.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 02:52PM

Our family is still reeling from her loss. I don't think you ever really get over the loss of someone so young or a loss so senseless as suicide. It was so tragic, so sudden, and so unexpected.

No one should have to experience that kind of discrimination in schools or anywhere else. She had school teachers failing her in class based on her sexuality. And mocking her for it. Of all people, you'd think the teachers would be the ones setting the example for the students to be role models of compassion and acceptance. Not in the Morridor, not then anyway. I'd like to think progress has been made since then. But they still make excuses and blame the victims when these things happen.

The Morridor is still pretty backwards where I grew up. One of my children thanked me not too long ago, for raising my children in New York state rather than Idaho. Because? They were given better opportunities here educationally and were raised in a more diverse and tolerant society than the one I grew up in. LGBT communities are accepted here. My children grew up very accepting of that in their public schools and later college. It was a non-issue here in New York. It should be like that in Utah and Idaho. Some day. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRmBChQjZPs

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 12:17PM

We'll convert you by electrocuting your genitalia. Sounds legit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: evileric ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 12:27PM

So sorry for your loss and that family's loss AmyJo. The church has so much blood on their hands from this horrific policy. The Nazi's would be proud. None other than the first counselor in the First Presidency, Dallin Oaks, was at the helm of BYU when electroshock "therapy" was being used. More proof that there is absolutely no divine inspiration in this so-called church.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: logged out today ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 12:41PM

I believe they discontinued the electroshock treatment, but then tried a different kind of so-called "reparative" treatment called the "Evergreen program."

Perhaps you are conflating the two. Here is one older thread discussing it.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1757777

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: July 07, 2019 06:41PM

I'm nervous about posting anything more because I'm pretty certain a reply I put up was deleted (it was early in the morning, however, and I may have been tired and had a senior moment). My replies on this thread are essentially what I said in the one that "vanished," and I don't have anything further to add.

I am horrified at the personal attacks on "cntbequiet," and I salute her courage.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: shylock ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 01:33PM

What's worse is it is all sugar coated in the name of the Lawd... which for MORmONS and evangelicals makes it OK!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 07:20PM

Here's the part I struggle with - the pornography aspect. Does BYU really have a supply of gay porn to arouse unwitting subjects? I'm sure there is plenty of unofficial porn in BYU, but for official use?

It is possible to condition people to behave quite differently. The education system has been doing thos for centuries, and that conditioning is heavily practised today. Whether sexual orientation can be changed is moot, but if someone has ambisexual tendencies then maybe they can be turned more to one side than the other. Certainly various forces have tried to convert people in recent times.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 07, 2019 05:08PM

> Here's the part I struggle with - the pornography
> aspect. Does BYU really have a supply of gay porn
> to arouse unwitting subjects? I'm sure there is
> plenty of unofficial porn in BYU, but for official
> use?

That's what you struggle with?


-------------
> It is possible to condition people to behave quite
> differently. The education system has been doing
> thos for centuries, and that conditioning is
> heavily practised today.

Are you suggesting that education is comparable to changing one's sexual identity?


------------------
> Whether sexual
> orientation can be changed is moot,

It would seem to me a highly important question.


--------------
> but if someone
> has ambisexual tendencies then maybe they can be
> turned more to one side than the other.

Why does this question even arise? Why would anyone attempt it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 08, 2019 11:15AM

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the part I struggle with - the pornography
> aspect.

We're hear for you Jordan.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2019 10:57PM

Well put!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 07:39PM

the victims of electroshock therapy were supposed to bring porn with them.

I also believe the OP said they are a SHE.

I wouldn't put it past the lds church to still be practicing some type of conversion therapy as they are still telling gays to marry straights. They also hid conversion therapy from all of us for years. Having dealt with the ugly underbelly of mormonism, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past them.

Learning about this was one of the big reasons I started to see the light.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 07:39PM by cl2.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 08:06PM

> the victims of electroshock
> therapy were supposed to
> bring porn with them.

I've no doubt that you picked this information up somewhere... Do you remember its source?

Here's the recollection of a gentleman who carried out the aversion therapy:


"Anyway, they would come in usually three times a week. I would be behind a glass one-way mirror, and they would be on the other side of it. They had their choice to look at pornographic magazines or watch porno videos."



I wasn't there, but the source I'm using has to date been impeccable in terms of standing up to scrutiny.

And back in the 70s, in Provo, UT, where would Gays get Gay porn and as students who likely did not live alone, where would they keep it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: July 09, 2019 01:29PM

almost anywhere since I've been in this "struggle" for over 35 years now. I know that my ex had information and he may still have it. I've talked to many of his ex boyfriends about it and other gays. It seems that someone just happened to comment about it when I brought up the point that the lds church goes overboard to talk to the members about porn and then they use it themselves to CONVERT gays to straight?????

Just like in my situation, you can't have it both ways. You can't preach against it and then use it for a purpose like this. It is pure evil. Me, save yourself, oh wait, it's okay as long as you are necking and petting and almost doing the deed as long as you are trying to save someone gay.

And I'll say again, they did tell me in 1983/1984 that he was DAMNED if he didn't CHANGE TO STRAIGHT. It wasn't "He's okay as long as he doesn't act on it." He was damned and "not even 1 in 10 make it."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: baura ( )
Date: July 04, 2019 11:09PM

A common misconception is that an electric shock was administered
to the genitals. A Plethysmograph (device to measure volume
change) was attached to the penis and if "improper" arousal was
detected an electric shock was administered to another (neutral)
part of the body. The genitals were not shocked.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: July 05, 2019 02:02AM

Nothing pervy about that--not at all.

I suppose all of us who were members and paying tithing are accessories to these atrocities, since our money paid for the electrodes and plethysmographs, and paid the salaries of the sick and twisted people who strapped them onto the victims.

NOW how do you feel about the cult not disclosing how tithing money is spent?

I feel like crap!

I ran into an old high school friend, on temple square, and I had not seen him for about 10 years. I was surprised, when he told me he was married with children, because everyone had thought he was gay, growing up. He told me he graduated from BYU, with a music major and theater minor, and that he now worked with "Evergreen", and that was why he was on temple square. Being my curious and over-inquisitive self, I asked him exactly HOW did they turn gays into straights. He stared at me, dumbfounded, for a full minute, before saying something like: "You know, most people think gays have issues with their mothers and women, but, the truth is that they have father issues, and some even hate their fathers. They have trouble bonding with MEN, not women."

I had no idea of what went on at BYU, even when I was majoring in phychology for a while, and knew people in the psychology department.

I was also wondering why my old friend was working at Evergreen, when he had no education or training in the field of psychology.

I said, "Interesting. But--exactly what type of therapy do you use?"

He replied, "We help them bond with other men. We mostly just play basketball...."

It was like most of my conversations with Mormons. I didn't have my questions answered, and ended up being more confused than ever. When I found out about the electoshock therapy, I realized my old friend had lied to me. Now, I wonder if perhaps he was one of the patients, or maybe an under-assistant who strapped things to victims' genitals.

Or, maybe the cult couldn't hire any qualified or reputable therapists to work at Evergreen....

We will never get any straight answers about this from the Mormon cult, that's for sure. Yes--I wouldn't "put anything past them", either.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: July 05, 2019 02:07AM

I'm also curious as to WHERE at temple square, SLC, did Evergreen happen?

Is "Evergreen" in SLC something different than the shock treatments at BYU? Or were they connected, under the umbrella of the Mormon cult?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: July 05, 2019 02:39AM

although it was apparently indirectly closely connected to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_International

"The organization also agreed with all teachings and policies of the LDS Church "without reservation or exception", but stated that it was not "affiliated with the Church".

"Although it functioned independently of any church, Evergreen was religiously based on the teachings of the LDS Church. The organization adhered to its teachings "without reservation or exception." Evergreen had LDS general authorities on its board of trustees and taught LDS Church principles to Latter-day Saints and ecclesiastical leaders by coordinating with the Church as well as by hosting various events, such as firesides (informal evening gatherings of church members), workshops, and conferences. General LDS church leaders spoke at nearly every Evergreen annual conference from 1996 to 2011."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: tenaciousdeb ( )
Date: July 07, 2019 09:33AM

Ugh ! Trying to fix people doesn’t work ! Loving them does and heals. As a parent of a transgender, as anyone can imagine was hard to accept at first and during that time attempts of suicide occurred as my indoctrinated beliefs took over. When I gave in just wanting him alive and happy,choosing to love/support him , and making the wanted changes . He is one happy kid now and has a girlfriend ! Love is what heals not trying to correct someone with shame and guilt . Another reason I just resigned . The church would never accept us because of this and to protect my child , I cannot expose him throwing him under the bus being susceptible to shame and guilt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2019 05:45PM by tenaciousdeb.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 07, 2019 05:10PM

Thank you for sharing this, and thank you for doing what you are doing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: July 09, 2019 01:37PM

your child.

exminion:

There was a previous poster here at RfM who went by estoban (spelling?) and another name. He participated in Evergreen. They met at the local lds stake center. He wrote a book. I wish I could remember the name. It seems someone was related to him from the board. I'm sure others remember him. Right now I can't even remember his regular name.

When you read what Evergreen did to "convert" gays, it was laughable. Teach them to work on cars was one. My ex can fix any car and I hate that he keeps them running for FOREVER because you are so sick of the car by the time he lets you dispose of it. I do believe the lds church distanced themselves from Evergreen in recent years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2019 01:37PM by cl2.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: July 09, 2019 09:04PM

cl2 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------

> There was a previous poster here at RfM who went by estoban (spelling?) and another name. He participated in Evergreen. They met at the local lds stake center. He wrote a book. I wish I could remember the name. It seems someone was related to him from the board. I'm sure others remember him. Right now I can't even remember his regular name.

Here ya go, Esteban (Steve) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFLGJyXG-UQ

Powerful video.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 09, 2019 09:21PM

And entertaining, too!

At around 9:50 in, when he talks about never doing to his kids what Mormon ghawd does to his (ghawd's) kids, that resonated...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 11, 2019 02:39PM

Heavens, isn't that the truth.

Having children and trying to fulfill their needs brought home to me the extent of God "the Father's" horrific approach to "his" children, his creation: negligence at best, abuse at worse. That realization played a significant role in my deciding that religion made no sense.

I can't imagine the pain that gay believers went through, and still go through, trying to reconcile the notion of an omniscient and loving God with what they experience in the church.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: July 09, 2019 09:32PM

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> your child.
>
> exminion:
>
> There was a previous poster here at RfM who went
> by estoban (spelling?) and another name. He
> participated in Evergreen. They met at the local
> lds stake center. He wrote a book. I wish I
> could remember the name. It seems someone was
> related to him from the board. I'm sure others
> remember him. Right now I can't even remember his
> regular name.
>
> When you read what Evergreen did to "convert"
> gays, it was laughable. Teach them to work on
> cars was one. My ex can fix any car and I hate
> that he keeps them running for FOREVER because you
> are so sick of the car by the time he lets you
> dispose of it. I do believe the lds church
> distanced themselves from Evergreen in recent
> years.

Laughable? Well, I suppose it is. Some of these skills like fixing a car are useful so I suppose whatever else they got out of it, there was always that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********  ********    *******   **     **  ******** 
 **        **     **  **     **  **     **  **       
 **        **     **         **  **     **  **       
 ******    ********    *******   **     **  ******   
 **        **     **         **   **   **   **       
 **        **     **  **     **    ** **    **       
 ********  ********    *******      ***     ********