On Amish families who become Mormon. I am sure there is a joke in here somewhere...

http://www.ldsliving.com/Why-3-Amish-Families-Risked-Everything-to-Join-the-Church/s/90550/

So they went from one religion that shuns apostates and divides families, to another that often shuns apostates, and divides families. Sounds like a good fit.

(I'm trying to determine)


Is your post above Superb or Exquisite? Both, I'm thinking...

You got it right with "Both."

They moved up from the 17th to the 19th Century. It's a step forward--maybe.

There'll come a time they'll become disenchanted with the Mormon religion if they are thinking people at all.

My convert gggrandfather did after immigrating from Wales to Utah in the 1880s. He left Mormonism after some years in the church. He didn't leave his home in Ogden, Utah, but he left TSCC.

At some point he saw through the charade and decided he didn't want anything more to do with it. Our Mormon TBM's don't want to admit this. It was my jack Mo cousin genealogist who shared this with me in years past following my dad's death and funeral. Or I would not have known that great great grandpa became a jack Mo himself with good cause. What that cause was we don't know, only that he left it well before he died.

He's on Utah's Historical Registry of early Mormon pioneers, which is why our Mormon TBM's don't want to acknowledge his apostasy, heaven forbid. It might shake their faith if they did.

to Ogden and left the lds church eventually, but he went back to Pennsylvania. He was friends with Porter Rockwell. My boyfriend's descendants are not mormon for the most part, although 3 of his sisters joined, but are no longer active mormon. He has a lot of distant relatives here in Utah who have tried to convert his father (who is now deceased). His father didn't have an obituary for a few reasons and one was to keep the mormons in his family from knowing he died. I assume there are other ways to find out. He also has a mormon royalty name. Last name is Taylor.

This is not limited to religious groups, but most proponents of a belief system ballyhoo converts. This is why LDS prizes converts who were (or at least identified as) "Evangelical." (Or Catholic, JW, atheist...etc...) To win over Amish is unusual and attention-getting, and reinforces Members' certainty that they have the one true Church.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is not limited to religious groups, but most
> proponents of a belief system ballyhoo converts.
> This is why LDS prizes converts who were (or at
> least identified as) "Evangelical." (Or Catholic,
> JW, atheist...etc...) To win over Amish is unusual
> and attention-getting, and reinforces Members'
> certainty that they have the one true Church.

I have to confess, I would be very impressed by any missionary who could pull in whole families of Amish. They are a very tight knit group. If you can get them, you could get anyone. Even atheists would be easier. I would put Hasidic Jews on the same level or Zoroastrians down as something equally exotic.

They must have been taught by someone with very good powers of persuasion. If I ran a sales company, I'd want that guy.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would put Hasidic Jews on the
> same level or Zoroastrians down as something
> equally exotic.

Orthodox or Neo-Zoroastrians?

(:+]

> They must have been taught by someone with very
> good powers of persuasion. If I ran a sales
> company, I'd want that guy.

True, this. A lot of posters disparage the missionary experience, but the WSJ had a long article a couple of years ago about how many corporations have found that the missionary experience did much to mature and prepare young men for the business world.

There is a huge overlap. It is no secret that a lot of sales involves marketing items which are ineffective, trashy or useless - if you can sell Mormonism, you can sell anything.

Mormonism does teach a few transferable skills. Public speaking is another.

I would quibble with combining 'maturity' with 'preparation for the business world.'

And I would like to point out that sometimes when missionaries are 'successful' with people from an unlikely group, that it's just as likely that the 'converts' were running away, v. being convinced to leave.

I'm really quite the cynic!

The Amish in question may find they jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

Regarding "maturity," some will be more mature than others. But even if they have a lousy two years, I'd say that simply taking them away from home will have a maturing effect. As I recall from the WSJ piece, they learn to persevere when things are discouraging, put up with difficult life situations, endure hardship, rejection, difficult superiors (bosses), and so on. Some may be crushed; others will survive and be tougher.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would quibble with combining 'maturity' with
> 'preparation for the business world.'
>
> And I would like to point out that sometimes when
> missionaries are 'successful' with people from an
> unlikely group, that it's just as likely that the
> 'converts' were running away, v. being convinced
> to leave.
>
> I'm really quite the cynic!

You are right to be cynical, but a lot of converts come from a very strange or unexpected background. Most don't hang around, but I have been amazed by some of the people they managed to capture.

Missionaries do learn sales talk, and how to push themselves forward, and fighting past failure. They also learn public speaking skills which will work in business, politics or even the secret services.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would quibble with combining 'maturity' with
> 'preparation for the business world.'

I agree, and I also don't think any lifestyle in which one has next to no freedom and makes few important decisions for himself or herself lends itself to maturation on the part of the individual.

> Missionaries do learn sales
> talk, and how to push them-
> selves forward, and fighting
> past failure. They also
> learn public speaking skills
> which will work in business,
> politics or even the secret
> services.

Wow, you make serving as a missionary sound so enticing!

You must be kicking yourself for not going!

And I wouldn't say they 'do learn'. I agree it's a place that young men, so inclined, 'can learn'. I do see it as a given that after the mission, the next step is to be successful in business.

I learned to mimic the extroverts and to pretend to push myself forward. Personally, I was okay with failure to convert, so I didn't have to 'fight past failure'.

Damn, we should have switched places!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Damn, we should have switched places!

And subject yourself to the opprobrium of Lot's Wife? Sheesh!

Like the military, the missionary experience will be what you make it. Some will prosper, others will wither. It could be helpful for older teens who are not ready, or not focused, for college. I'd recommend the armed forces over a mission, but that might deprive you of a BYU trophy wife.

Huh! You are coming across as someone who is not always definitive or certain.

Not sure I want a Life Coach like that...

caffiend Wrote:

> Like the military, the missionary experience will
> be what you make it.


There's a major wild card in any missionary's hand in the form of the mission president. Some mission presidents will have served to have made the mission a beneficial life experience for everyone under their jurisdiction regardless of the post-mission direction the missionary traveled (with and without regard to the church), while others will have done their damnedest to accomplish the opposite for all except for their chosen few. (In the final analysis, the job performance of most will have fallen somewhere between the two extremes.) Some of those whose lives were effectively derailed by inhumane mission presidents experienced the horror through no failure to make lemonade of the proverbial lemons handed to them or through no other failure on their part.

While it's not my way to let a malevolent mission president or anyone else chart my course, not everyone else had or has circumstances identical to mine.

I wouldn't go on a mission if you paid me! The early mornings, bothering strangers all the time, restrictive lifestyle etc. No way. I get the impression senior missions are less harsh, but still...

Something good can come of bad things occasionally. The language skills might come in handy. I knew people who had learned other languages and then used them in their work.

I just love these out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire stories.

It is very rare for Amish people to convert to Mormonism, which is why it is so celebrated when it happens.

Same for Jewish converts to Mormonism.

Yet it is quite common for Mormons to convert to Judaism in Salt Lake City. On average its membership is made up of 1/4 former Mormons who converted to Judaism.

The rabbi told my grandmother and I the same thing when we visited there in 1973, before Congregation B'nai Israel became Kol Ami.

My friend who spent 15 winters there to ski said there were ongoing conversion classes for Mormons who were leaving Mormonism for Judaism on a regular basis.

It's been happening for as long as there has been a Jewish Congregation in Salt Lake City.

https://www.apnews.com/c278c4fadf68d57a75793ac211b04f7f



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 09:20PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
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> Yet it is quite common for Mormons to convert to
> Judaism in Salt Lake City. On average its
> membership is made up of 1/4 former Mormons who
> converted to Judaism.

BYU Boner mentioned in a recent post that the conservative Episcopalian church he's now attending has a large number of ex-Mos. It's worth noting that in giving up LDS (or other false religions) you don't have to give up faith in God and belief in Christ. I see it as a baby/bathwater type of thing.
>
> The rabbi told my grandmother and I the same thing
> when we visited there in 1973, before Congregation
> B'nai Israel became Kol Ami.

Some years ago the Utah Symphony recruited the Boston Symphony's concertmaster, Joseph Silverstein (now deceased) as their new music director. After lots of conversations, meet-the-orchestra, and other discussions, it was reported that they had arranged for him to "meet the rabbi." Not A RABBI, but SLC's one-and-only rabbi. My, how times have changed!

(Joey Silverstein a.k.a. "Gieusesppi SilverTone" took the position.)

There still is only a rabbi or two in SLC, last count.

Presently there is a female rabbi for the Kol Ami congregation.

There is a Chabad Lubavitch House (Orthodox) in SLC, that is an alternative to the Kol Ami synagogue which was the only congregation for years there after the former Montefiore (Orthodox,) and B'nai Israel (Reform,) merged sometime in the late 1970's. My understanding is the Kol Ami synagogue is a combination of Reform and Conservative at this time.

decide for themselves. Everyone's experience is different.

I don't really know what I believe. I just don't worry about it.

After having been mormon, I don't want to be any religion, but I know that isn't so for a lot of people.

I knew as a mormon that I didn't view mormonism as others did. My beliefs were different in many ways. I think that goes for any way we all choose to live our lives and what beliefs we have.

Well, this post was supposed to be a reply to caffeind's comments about baby and bath water.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2019 12:28PM by cl2.

Probably almost every non-Mormon religious institution in Utah is made up of at least 1/4 former Mormons. It's sort of the nature of the place.


Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Same for Jewish converts to Mormonism.
>
> Yet it is quite common for Mormons to convert to
> Judaism in Salt Lake City. On average its
> membership is made up of 1/4 former Mormons who
> converted to Judaism.
>
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2019 04:20AM by scmd1.

I don't know for sure about that, having lived in Utah. Maybe with more Mormons leaving the ranks there may be a welcome wagon waiting for them in other creeds and denominations.

The thing that stands out from other religions from Judaism is that Judaism does not proselytize or seek out converts. Unlike Mormonism does.

It discourages people from joining, in fact. People have to really want to convert to Judaism, and seek *it* out, rather than the other way around.

That is the difference between it and the Christian religions.

It is unusual where I live for people to want to become Jewish in my metro area. We do get converts, but they are few and far between. In Salt Lake City on average they get between 20-30 Mormons a year which is a high number given SLC has only app 5,000 religious Jews to speak of. That is a high number seeking out conversion from any other religion at any one time. It's also a high concentration coming from SLC, capitol of Mormonism.

Mormons are looking for an escape outlet, and Judaism provides that to those who want to keep their faith walk without giving up their spirituality it seems to me.

Some of the other churches pale in comparison to that. (Been there, done that.) Mormonism can't hold a candle to Judaism.

My main comparison was in saying there are way more Jewish converts from Mormonism than there are to Mormonism from Judaism. Jews don't typically convert to Christianity, let alone cults.

Mormons are indeed looking for an escape outlet, and while the rate is certainly accelerating, it's far from a new phenomenon.

I've lived in Utah, too. I was born in Hawaii and spent my first five years there while my dad taught at BYU-H, and I spent three years of my youth in the mission field as well. Utah, however, was always the family's home base. I attended both undergrad and med school there, after graduating middle school and high school there. My parents and three of my siblings are still there, and I maintain a vacation condo there for skiing and family get-together purposes. It's not foreign territory to me.

I get that proselytism is not part of either the Jewish faith or culture. Sometimes, however, that makes it all the more appealing to outsiders. Members have grown disillusioned with Mormonism for all but about the first five minutes of the existence of Mormonism. It happens in Utah just as it does elsewhere, and because Utah has so many Mormons, the other faiths will naturally inherit from the attrition ranks those who don't want to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater in terms of religious faith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2019 03:12PM by scmd1.

The offputting part of Judaism for me is all the legalism. It seems a very high demand religion, and as some famous Jew once said, "There's always someone more Jewish than you."

I relate to Judaism inasmuch as my Christian background has some commonalities (far more than most on either side usually admit to). So in that sense it's not completely alien.

Also when men join Judaism they lose something that women don't. It always struck me as easier for women to join, but then again there's all that ritual bathing that some of them do.

My brothers and dad were circumcised as Mormons. It is still the norm in Idaho where they were born and grew up.

It depends on what sect one joins whether it's hard or not to practice Judaism IMO.

I don't work very hard at it, but then I didn't need to convert, because I was born Jewish through my mother's side of the family. Once I started attending in 2011 I was already Jewish, so the only thing I needed to do was join my local synagogue. I still haven't done that, because I'm a procrastinator. And I'll be retiring and moving away in the near future somewhere else.

I've abstained from joining any where since leaving Mormonism. Yet I feel fully Jewish. That is a gift from the Gods above, I can thank heaven for. When God closed the door for me on Mormonism he opened another door for me allowing a religious identity basically to replace the one I'd known for the first part of my life. Now I identify as a Jewish woman instead of a Mormon one. I have centuries of Jewish ancestors, along with Mennonites I'm recently learning about. The Mormons are much more recent than that, and only a fractionalized part of the whole.

So my religious identity is not swallowed up by Mormonism any longer. Hallelujah! If it ever was. It is only a minute part of the much larger picture of who I am and where I came from.

The nice thing about being Amish or Mennonite or Jewish even is they are not cults like Mormonism is. Mormonism still stands out as a cult among these groups.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2019 10:44PM by Amyjo.

I am aware of a handful of people who have converted to being Amish. That seems a tough prospect, especially considering much of the culture revolves around an obscure dialect of German that isn't much taught. I imagine the Amish are a lot more rooted in family than the LDS are...

There is a sort of Romanticism to the Amish. It's to the USA's credit that they have largely left them alone. In these days where cell phones and cashless payment is becoming more common, it is hard to see where they may end up though. I am sure some forces would like to see Amish children educated out of their culture by compulsion as well.

The family was tired of making barns for their neighbors. Mormons don't make anything these days for the community.

Seems like a nice break from Amish rules and they are embracing mormon rules which isn't too different and you get to use the internet but learn about porn abuse monthly.

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I've traveled the world and the seven seas
Everybody's lookin' for something

Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I've traveled the world and the seven seas
Everybody's lookin' for something

One thing I'll add about the Amish is when I went to an Amish country a few years back to purchase some Amish made goods to send as a thank you gift to an Israeli cousin, I was in for a pleasant surprise.

The Amish woman told me after I shared with her that my ancestors were book printers and publishers of the Talmud and Hebrew prayer books in German and Hebrew from Old Germany, that her Amish people use the very same prayer books my ancestors made back in Germany and brought them with them to America when they immigrated here! They still use them in German and Hebrew she told me. I was astonished to hear this.

When I told my Israeli cousin, he was also.

I asked the Mennonite family who I adopted my Swiss Bernese Mountain pup from a couple of weeks ago if they used the same prayer books as the Amish do, and she told me no. Only the Amish do that she said to me. Not the Mennonites.

It came as a complete surprise that the Amish uses the Jewish prayer books to this day. I thought that was serendipity since I was there to find something to send to my Israeli cousin a thank you gift, and I learned that in exchange about my Jewish ancestry (and their prayer books that have been passed down inter-generationally within Amish prayer circles as much or more as they were Jewish ones.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2019 11:05AM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I asked the Mennonite family who I adopted my
> Swiss Bernese Mountain pup from a couple of weeks
> ago if they used the same prayer books as the
> Amish do, and she told me no. Only the Amish do
> that she said to me. Not the Mennonites.
>
My understanding of the Mennonites is that they're "Amish Lite," holding to Amish doctrine but dropping the cultural and ecclesiastical separatism. That's a general understanding--I welcome confirmation or correction.

I do know that "clean read" Amish Romance is very popular with Christian readers. A common plot is boy meets girl, one being Amish. Religious conflict (and others) arises, and is resolved by their both becoming Mennonite.

I read a book about the strange popularity of Amish Romances, titled, "The Thrill of the Chaste." Cute!

It also depends upon the particular Mennonite order or denomination. When my family was in central CA, there was an enclave of Mennonite Brethren from Fresno to southern and southeastern Fresno County. They dressed in somewhat conservative ordinary clothing except for a very few of the older people, and their church services fell somewhere between First Baptist and Reformed Church in America in terms of style. They tend to be very good singers and have a strong a capella tradition.

I would consider them to be somewhat conservative and fundamental, but they don't consider themselves as such, particularly because of their pacifist stance.