I thought this was interesting and would share it here.


"Scientists looked at the genomes of 10 Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon, which is on the Mediterranean Sea about 40 miles west of Jerusalem and which was known in ancient times as one of five cities of the Philistines.

They found that the Philistines were genetically distinct from human remains from other ancient groups who lived in the area because they had a set of genes linked to Europeans.

"Of the available contemporaneous populations, we model the southern European gene pool as the best proxy for this incoming gene flow," the scientists wrote in the study."


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/04/world/philistines-european-dna-trnd/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3FXKucXgwPGoNQhnUeUtXKyzVTUliCvNbNGYIwhj9AKCF_Ov4aIMwy44I

Well that does make sense, they were not native to Israel or the area they settled there. They were not known to be cultured or intellectual either, but were materialistic.

The god they worshiped was 'Dagon,' whatever that meant.

LiveScience says that, "The Philistines were a group of people who arrived in the Levant (an area that includes modern-day Israel, Gaza, Lebanon and Syria) during the 12th century B.C. They came during a time when cities and civilizations in the Middle East and Greece were collapsing." Jul 16, 2016
Who Were the Philistines? - Live Science
https://www.livescience.com/55429-philistines.html

It's been known for a long time that the Hittites originated in Europe. Cleopatra's family also originated in Greece. She may have had black African ancestry but she was a Ptolemy by descent.

The Hittites did not originate in Europe.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> The Hittites did not originate in Europe.

There is some debate whether they came from the Balkans, or from the area to the north east of the Black Sea. No matter. Both of these happen to be areas on the fringes of Europe.

False.

There are two main theories. The first is Mallory's. He and his followers believe that the Hittites moved from the Yamnaya area north of the Black Sea across into Greece and then south and eastward into Anatolia. They accordingly originated in Asia, which historically has been defined as the regions east of the Strait. You can't have Mallory's theory without the origin north of the Black Sea.

The other theory is that of Colin Renfrew, who argues that the Hittites were already in eastern Anatolia and then leveraged the development of agriculture to spread from there outward. Renfrew's theory has been gaining credibility in recent years due in part to the very close connection between Hittite archaeology and that of Iran. Conversely, the fact that Mycenean architecture resembles that of the Hittites is compatible with either the hypothesis that they moved from Greece into Anatolia or the proposition that they moved from Anatolia into Greece.

There is no serious academic who thinks the Hittites, or the Indo-Europeans of whom they are the earliest documented example, originated anywhere in Europe.

So one theory has them originating in Europe north of the Black Sea and the pther has them entering Europe and then re-entering Asia Minor. I must say you have excelled your usual standards of self-contradiction here, or whatever you cut and pasted did.

False. Your Black Sea and Greece stories are the same theory, not alternatives. And no, the area north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea are not Europe. They are Ukraine and Turkmenistan and some other little countries like Armenia.

I will never understand why you feel compelled to double down on ridiculous assertions.

"And no, the area north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea are not Europe. They are Ukraine and Turkmenistan and some other little countries like Armenia"

Your geography is atrocious.

The boundaries of Europe are as follows:
* The Dardanelles, Hellespont and Sea of Marmara. This channel cuts through the modern day city of Istanbul.
* The Ural Mountain Range.
* The Caucasus Mountains round about Mt Elbrus.

The Ukraine is certainly in Europe. All of it, even the bits the Russians took back. It is to the north of the Black Sea. In fact the entire northern fringe of the Black Sea and Sea of Azov is in Europe.

None of Turkmenistan in Europe. It is to the east of the Caspian Sea, not next to the Black Sea. Maybe you are thinking of Kazakhstan which has a small portion in the west which is arguably in Europe and is used by them to try and enter various European bodies.

Armenia is commonly associated with Europe as a Christian nation. It is very arguable. And the southern parts of traditional Armenia, now in Turkey, are where the Turks conducted the first major genocide of the twentieth century.

The north west coasts of the Caspian Sea are in Europe, the eastern and southern parts in Asia.

The area north of the Caucasus up to the Arctic Ocean, but west of the Urals, is in Rurope, but is right on the fringe.

None of this has been pasted from a website, but you can look it up for yourself. I know they don't teach geography in American schools but come on...

We are talking about the Hittites, are we not? They lived in Anatolia, right? And Anatolia is Turkey, which is Asia Minor. That may be worth bearing in mind. So too the fact that the Hellespont/Bosporus sits between Greece and Turkey, between Europe and Asia. For what happened east of that Strait is Asian, particularly in the period we are discussing--when the Urals were uniformly considered part of that continent.

It would, Jargon, be a good idea to bone up on the Yamnaya people. That way you could perhaps comprehend theory you are parroting; Mallory's seminal work is entitled In Search of the Indo-Europeans. It is a large volume, but you'll be gratified that it has some pictures. Take a look in that book (or anything derivative) and find a map of where the Yamnaya culture existed, since that is the people whom your theory posits as the original Indo-Europeans.

The Yamnaya lands stretched from the Pontic Steppe (which people today consider Europe but Herodotus and his contemporaries, who described these nations, assuredly did not) all the way into what are now Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. If you want to call that area--north of Turkey and the Caucuses and later Iran and India and western China--Europe, go ahead.

In the meanwhile, please stop acting as if the Yamnaya and some inchoate European hypothesis are alternatives. They are the same theory, Mallory's theory. You apparently aren't conversant with the Renfrew hypothesis, which puts the whole Hittite story in Anatolia-Turkey-Asia Minor.

The Ukraine is entirely within Europe, Mrs Lot. The European boundary is in the Urals.

"If you want to call that area--north of Turkey and the Caucuses

= Europe

" and later Iran and India and western China."

= Asia (except above north west Iran perhaps.

"If you want to call that area--north of Turkey and the Caucuses and later Iran and India and western China--Europe, go ahead."


On the wine boxes again today?

The Council of Europe and European Court of Human Rights consider the area to the north of the Caucasus to be European.

The second area you are talking about is Central Asia. For some reason you confuse it with Eastern Europe.

Jargon, you have outdone yourself.


---------------
> The Council of Europe and European Court of Human
> Rights consider the area to the north of the
> Caucasus to be European.

Did someone submit a case to the ECHR arguing that Herodotus and his predecessors were wrong in naming the countries of Europe and Asia? Is Herodotus free to appeal that decision? Because, you know, he deserves his day in cartographical court. It's his "human right."

More importantly, don't you share my worry that the European Union's infamous cultural Marxism influenced the decision to throw out virtually all of ancient history? Claiming several Asian countries sounds frighteningly like Marxist imperialism to me.



-------------
> The second area you are talking about is Central
> Asia. For some reason you confuse it with Eastern
> Europe.

I'm not discussing Europe. I am discussing the topic, which was the origins of the Hittites and hence their relationship with proto-Indo-European cultures that happened to be spread from the Pontic and Caspian steppes well into Central Asia.

Do you understand? I'm not following you down your rabbit hole.

Jordan learned his geography from the Risk board

Jargon's right about the modern definitions of Europe and Asia but not about the classical ones. I guess, however, if we went to the European Court of Human Rights, they'd side with him.

I'm still waiting to see what law firm Herodotus hires for the appeal. That'll be nail-biting stuff!

Lot's wife, I'm sure your very smart but seriously lighten up. Let this other poster believe what he wants to believe. It doesn't hurt any of us.

It could hurt those who are enamored of facts. Or of hypotheses that have not yet been disproven.

We can't all be hippies and wear flowers in our hair.

If you're going to San Franciso
Be sure to. . .

Well, you know.

"I'm sure your very smart" ... My irony meter is pegging.
Get a brain ! morans

macaRomney,

I don't think you understand. A few years ago the wheels came off and it suddenly became socially acceptable to voice sentiments that taste and wisdom had previously precluded. A lot of those things are about race and gender.

You may not realize it, but bad genetics and bad sociology lead to regrettable outcomes in terms of policy and community. When Jordan showed up here in his present incarnation, one of his first threads was about race: how it exists, and what it means. He followed that intellectually bankrupt foray with cultural attacks on groups of people he disfavors. He has additionally behaved offensively towards women both substantively and in his dismissive tone. A lot of other people, including sometimes you, have ventured down that road as well.

These supposedly academic discussions are in fact very, very real. Don't believe it? Jordan's views on race and genetics and the origins of various peoples have over the last few days manifested in the bizarre notion that white people are, by dint of their hair and eye color, more individualistic than other peoples. Anyone who knows history knows where such thinking leads. Likewise, his constant attacks on political ideologies he disfavors are not only a violation of board rules but also the swamp from which nefarious political movements and policies arise.

You and others may feel that it is okay to vent about races and gender, but please do not expect the rest of us to chuckle and say "boys will be boys." I used to be a lot more restrained on this board, but the truth is the rules about gender and race and politics and religion are not consistently enforced and a lot of rabid comments are unwittingly tolerated. For many people who presumably do not resemble you and Jordan, that is problematic not just because we don't like being subjected to such abuse: we additionally resent fiercely what the mainstreaming of such opinions does to debate in the marketplace of ideas and thence to the treatment of living, breathing people.

So when bigotry enters the discussion, whether overt or concealed in dubious "science" or convoluted logic, do not expect me to sit back, fan myself, and say something self-deprecating. I will go at those arguments hammer and tongs; and if that offends others, let them respond with evidence and analysis and prove me wrong. Otherwise, rest assured that I will vigorously defend the values and accomplishments the West used to consider important. For I am a conservative in the old sense of the word.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2019 02:45AM by Lot's Wife.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's wife, I'm sure your very smart but seriously
> lighten up. Let this other poster believe what he
> wants to believe. It doesn't hurt any of us.

She believes that the Ukraine is in Asia. And has the cheek to pose as an educated person.

macRomney, anything to say here?

Probably not.

Of course macaRomney is silent here. His principles apply differently to his friends and his foes.

But we knew that.

Can you guys iron this out? I’m trying to plan a trip to Europe and I don’t know where the hell to go.

LOL.

Just don't take United and everything will be fine.

Go to Rome. I hear they have this cool new building, which cost a mint to construct, with sculptures of the original 12 apostles. This awesome building even has a movie theater inside, but sadly misuses it to show the same movie (or is it a slide show now?) over and over.

This is well-known. The DNA evidence just confirms what other evidence has established.

The Philistines, after whom Palestine was named, were dislodged from somewhere north and moved south. They spoke a language that was very closely related to Greek, probably the Greek of the west coast of what is today Turkey and where Homer would soon live and write. They worshiped Indo-European gods, probably the same pantheon as the Greek-ish peoples of Greece and Thrace and Anatolia.

They also had an influence on the Bible, not only through stories like Samson but also by influencing some of the literature. All that "the high shall be made low and the low, high" reads very much like Hesiod. The Jews lifted some of these ideas. The DNA confirms this relationship.

I'd quibble a bit with the title of the article, though, because the "European" peoples of that period were genetically very similar (perhaps effectively identical) to those on the eastern side of the Strait. "Greek" civilization and people were pretty much the same in western Anatolia as in southwestern "Europe." Whether the Philistines came from Thrace, modern Greece, western Turkey or somewhere else in the area wouldn't show up in the DNA.

You have to trace the origin of a particular DNA to the region of its geology, and more particularly, the basalt! Only then can you settle internet discussions and move on to the next frightful dilemma.

I trace everything to basalt--basalt and bapepper!

Thanks for the perspective, Lot's wife. This isn't my area of expertise but I find it interesting.

They were considered 'giants' to the Israelites because they were such physically large people.

David took a slingshot and piece of stone to Goliath to prove that the appearance of might doesn't always make right. We all know how that story ended.

The Lord was on David's side. Goliath was a liability and lost his head.

David was like a young Clint Eastwood. He had to prove his prowess, or there would have been no King David to give King Saul the boot.

I seriously do not envy you the convenience afforded you by your Bible.

The Book is not for everyone.

I don't envy your living without it either. It has served me well enough, that I am thankful for having the bible as my guide.

It helped guide me out of Mormonism.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2019 04:24PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
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> The Book is not for everyone.
>

Would you happen to have a list of those to whom it is of use?

And the correlative list, those for whom it is not intended?

You're quite capable of compiling your own.

You're such a tease!

Believe it or not, most here have heard of the Old Testament and are familiar with the premise of the David and Goliath story (since we were probably age 5).

The "Lord" was on the side of physics. Slings as a missile launcher, kinetic and potential energy transfer, materials, velocity, acceleration, etc. somehow were not explained in the Bible.

> kinetic and potential energy
> transfer, materials, velocity, acceleration, etc.

so. . . you are saying it was a miracle?

The next Bible is going to have Kirk Gibson's 10/15/88 home run in it, just mark my words!

Well, I don't follow basketball very much so I'll skip that chapter.

I remember as a kid thinking "slingshot". It never dawned on me that they didn't have anything that elastic. When I got older I started playing around with "slings", they are truly deadly (I almost killed a cow, mostly on accident).

My friends Bob and Gigi did quite a bit of work on their use in warfare in the Mariana's.

http://www.pireport.org/articles/2005/01/27/archeologists-study-chammaro-sling-stones

Interesting stuff.

I'm knitting my brow...

Want me to knit you one?

If it comes with matching ear hair you may sell more.

I am reading a book called "Why Homer Matters". The author believes that they were displaced Greeks on the move.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2019 06:46AM by bona dea.