https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/hong-kong-china-temple/


Nobody will ever convince me that it's been used enough to even wear out the carpet.

Originally, they demolished the mission home, mission office and a chapel to build this and they included the functionality of those buildings into the new structure with the temple on the top floors. Since then, they've purchased property across the street to accommodate those previous uses.

What say ye? Do you think that they are going to expand the temple portion of the structure to make the entire thing a temple? If so, why the need? What would a temple twice the size do that the current one can't?

Curious as to the reasons behind this, besides "let's spend everything".

It makes as much sense as anything else in Mormonville, little to none.

It's painfully obvious. Hong Kong is in turmoil just now. There are ?seven million in Hong Kong and there have been a million protesting the gradual Communist takeover on the streets.

I wrote a thread about the Hong Kong situation here -

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2231961,2231961#msg-2231961

I also wrote elsewhere that HK temple is a liability right now.

yeah, but this plan was announced almost a year ago.

Levi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yeah, but this plan was announced almost a year
> ago.

I'm sure recent events have "hastened the work". Please bear in mind that recent events are the culmination of years of tension and Beijing powergrabs and:

* Public transport in HK will have been largely unusable.

* Travel from across the border into the PRC proper will be being carefully monitored so those crypto-Mormons in the so called Mainland won't want to visit there.

But in the other thread you claimed that Hong Kong has always been part of China. How can Beijing engage in "power grabs" if Hong Kong is Chinese territory?

Or are your statements in different threads to be read independently of one another?

Nuance is not your thing, is it? The true Chinese successor government is to be found in Taipei, not Beijing. Taiwan is China, but is not ruled by Beijing. Hong Kong is China, but under increasing control of Beijing. Not hard to understand, unless you believe Kiev is Asian.

I continually draw a distinction between the PRC and China. The PRC also contains several areas such as Tibet, which are not properly Chinese (although rapid colonization is changing that).

"How can Beijing engage in "power grabs" if Hong Kong is Chinese territory?"

Violations of agreements which were made some time ago.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nuance is not your thing, is it? The true Chinese
> successor government is to be found in Taipei, not
> Beijing. Taiwan is China, but is not ruled by
> Beijing. Hong Kong is China, but under increasing
> control of Beijing. Not hard to understand, unless
> you believe Kiev is Asian.
>
> I continually draw a distinction between the PRC
> and China. The PRC also contains several areas
> such as Tibet, which are not properly Chinese
> (although rapid colonization is changing that).
>
> "How can Beijing engage in "power grabs" if Hong
> Kong is Chinese territory?"
>
> Violations of agreements which were made some time
> ago.

I worked in China for three years, for a Chinese company. I was always amazed at the mental gymnastics the Chinese would have to play to justify everything Chinese. Basically anything that occurred before 1949 that does not benefit the Chinese, such as the Treaty of Shimonoseki which gave Taiwan to Japan, is dismissed by the Chinese because China (and they say China, not the PRC) did not exist until 1949. But if they can use it to their benefit, they claim China is thousands of years old and thus it should take precedent.

What exactly to the riots in Hong Kong have to do with the Temple? Are people storming the temple? Is the temple somehow in the path of the rioters? Has the temple become a target. I'm guessing the answer to these questions are that you have no idea. But please show a single news article supporting anything you're trying to promote here as reasons for the renovations.

As Levi stated this was announced a year ago. Are the LDS leaders really prophetic? No, when this was pointed out, you pivoted to how the riots "hastened the work". There is zero proof of this, it doesn't make sense with the least bit of thought.

Your posts here are nothing more than yet another blatant attempt to make a thread political, to share your pet theories and derail yet another thread.

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What exactly to the riots in Hong Kong have to do
> with the Temple?

I've just told you. They brought large sections of the urban area to a standstill. It is actually difficult for them to operate.

Are people storming the temple?
> Is the temple somehow in the path of the rioters?

Hong Kong is not a big place, and the built up area is surprisingly small. Not tiny, but small enough. It isn't like LA which sprawls for miles - it is packed in, and vertical.

Unlike most temples, the HK temple is in a downtown area. One which has been affected by the trouble.

The exact same thing happened with BYU Jerusalem in 2000, when the Second Intifada started. BYU-J was never a target, but it happened to be near enough the trouble zone around the Muslim Quarter of the Old Town (1/4-1/2 a mile) for it to be closed. It would have been dangerous for students to walk there, and bus services & roads were interrupted by the unrest. It has re-opened since but was shut for years.

> Has the temple become a target.

No. Answered above. It is just in the wrong place.

> I'm guessing the
> answer to these questions are that you have no
> idea. But please show a single news article
> supporting anything you're trying to promote here
> as reasons for the renovations.
>
> As Levi stated this was announced a year ago. Are
> the LDS leaders really prophetic? No, when this
> was pointed out, you pivoted to how the riots
> "hastened the work". There is zero proof of this,

It's called sarcasm. The LDS often talk about "hastening the work", well I pointed out that the social unrest had probably brought the closure forward. Footfall declines when it is difficult to reach a location for whatever reason.

The future of Hong Kong is up in the air just now, so who knows where it will go. I suspect the ending will not be happy.

>"They brought large sections of the urban area to a standstill. It is actually difficult for them to operate."

And here is where you prove your own idea that the church is doing renovation while BECAUSE of the riots wrong.

Let's play out the conversation...

One year ago:

"Which temples are up for their 20 year renovations."

"Hong Kong is due"

"Ok, let's announce and schedule that... Wouldn't it be great if the entire area was thrown into chaos at that time? That would make me seem like a true prophet, because everyone knows that a major building project when the city is brought to a standstill is a great idea, it's so much more cost effective to move materials and hire workers at times like that."

"You're so right sir, one can only hope!"

Present day:

"Look, I am a prophet! Now we can spend boat loads of money trying to renovate a building during a political nightmare. It's always easier to get large projects done at times like that."

"You know it sir! I'll start filing the paperwork and prepare for the budgeting for a project that is at a virtual standstill"


OR, was it, a coincidence. Seeing how this was announced a year ago, I'm going to go with Occam's Razor on this, rather than build a conspiracy around it, one which includes the LDS leaders actually being prophets and seeing the protests a year ahead of them actually happening.

Also, you keep saying closure as if they simply aren't running the building. It's not, as far as anyone has said, closing just to be closed. They are trying to renovate the building.

If this thread was about just closing down the temple to be closed for an indefinite period of time, then, maybe your post idea might make sense, but it's for RENOVATIONS. If anything you reschedule your renovations for a later date due to political upheaval, not try to make sure it happens at the same time as them.

But, you know, great job derailing YET ANOTHER THREAD. If I generously count, there are maybe 10 out of 56 posts here that actually have to do with the OP and not some political tangent that has little if anything to do with the OP.

You have no desire to actually support the mission of this website. You are here to disrupt and stroke your own ego. You want to talk politics and conspiracy theories. If your goal is to drive this site away from helping people leave the LDS church, you're doing a great job.

It was built about 23 - 25 years ago. Maybe it just needs some renovations. That's less painful and more obvious than trying to link it with the current turmoil going on.

There seems to be some form of evil, oppression, sinister thing inside every topical discussion you join here. You remind me of the right wing whacko's on the radio. Say or make up anything like its the absolute truth, dismiss anything you disagree with, then change course when called on it because you have no basis in fact, etc.

Why can't you just join the conversation for what it is? Why must you always try remove the blinders from others that only you say are there and take the conversation into....well, all the places you take it, which are far removed from the original discussion?

I'm honestly curious? Is it a compulsion of some kind? A need to be right? A grab for attention? What is it?

Money laundering.

Using charitable funds to refurbish the temples allows the church to shift millions to building contractors who are often family or friends.

Heartless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Money laundering.
>
> Using charitable funds to refurbish the temples
> allows the church to shift millions to building
> contractors who are often family or friends.

Nothing to do with the massive rioting on the streets of Hong Kong against Marxist repression, which has more or less brought the place to a standstill?

HK isn't the first temple to be closed due to local violence, but it seems that they are being evasive about it.

> Nothing to do with the massive rioting on the
> streets of Hong Kong against Marxist repression,
> which has more or less brought the place to a
> standstill?

"Marxist repression" is such a banal thing to say. China gave up communism long ago. The best analysis indicates that modern China represents a form of authoritarian capitalism.

I know you don't like anyone else's jargon, Jargon, but you really do need to get out of the 1950s.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Marxist repression" is such a banal thing to say.

Tell that to the people being worked to death in prison camps, or being murdered to harvest their internal organs, all for disagreeing with the party line.

> China gave up communism long ago.

Same system, different dress.

Marxism has reinvented itself in different forms. Its aim is to bury the west, and it has the long term potential to do so.

> > "Marxist repression" is such a banal thing to
> say.
>
> Tell that to the people being worked to death in
> prison camps, or being murdered to harvest their
> internal organs, all for disagreeing with the
> party line.

By that standard the victims of Nazi atrocities were suffering from "Marxist repression."


-------------------
> > China gave up communism long ago.
>
> Same system, different dress.

Except that the dress is trousers. The "system" is capitalist now, not communism.


---------------------
> Marxism has reinvented itself in different forms.
> Its aim is to bury the west, and it has the long
> term potential to do so.

Feudalism has reinvented itself in different forms. It even acts as if it is capitalism. But it is really feudalism in the garb of capitalism.

I like that logic. You can do anything with it. Of course you look like a fool, but you can do it.

Feudaliam is everywhere still. Quite a few countries are still monarchies including large parts of the English speaking world, and Japan.

In Japan, many of the businesses such as Mitsubishi were set up by samurai families. Similar things happened in England. So no, it never quite went away.

Even India, a republic still has an entrenched caste system.

>> "HK isn't the first temple to be closed due to local violence, but it seems that they are being evasive about it."

And there you have it. A conspiracy lies around every corner in Jordan's world.

Roy, you suffer from a serious case of cultural Marxism. It's preventing you from appreciating our resident genius in all his glory.

Actually, I suffer from "beauty marxism". That's when you like the little mole on the cheek like Marilyn Monroe and Cindy Crawford have.

I also suffer form "gap toothism". That's when you like the front tooth gap like Madonna and Lauren Hutton have.

But most importantly, I suffer through these ridiculous posts by who know what he calls himself these days....my suffering is self inflicted, but I suffer none the less :)

What's the name of that affliction we both suffer? It starts with an "M" but isn't Mormonism--although that word probably works too!

As long as it's solo or between consenting adults I'm willing to suffer through it :)

You and the Dawg alike!

Misery loves company!

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> "HK isn't the first temple to be closed due to
> local violence, but it seems that they are being
> evasive about it."
>
> And there you have it. A conspiracy lies around
> every corner in Jordan's world.

Any impartial observer can see that Hong Kong is at a pivotal moment in its history. You can avoid this issue anymore than you can the large footprint of the drug trade in some parts of Latin America, or currency fluctations in other parts, or the difficulties the LDS will face in setting up temples in Russia or India.

I know like many people you probably think in categories. It is a form of mental short cut. So you think, because Jordan says X, he must be Y as well, and think Z. It doesn't always follow. I think anthropogenic climate change is real, the world is round and man landed on the Moon fifty years ago.

Unfortunately I do have links to Hong Kong. The last time I stayed there it was still under British control, but there was a genuine fear there, and the richer people, both Chinese and Gwailo, were all jumping ship.

Many recent events have confirmed people's fears back all those years ago. The idea that people can be "disappeared" in Hong Kong (as has happened with several booksellers -look it up), and attempts by HK's legislature to make extradition legal which have caused the unrest.

Either way, the HK temple is bang in the middle of this turmoil.

>> "Either way, the HK temple is bang in the middle of this turmoil."

And your claim that its painfully obvious that the renovation closure is actually due to current events is bang off the map.

I'm out!

Here are some stats on Hong Kong's Mormon problem:

http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=countries&cnt_res=2&wid=98&cmdfind=Search

The church has 24,800+ on its rolls, in 39 units, as of 2018. That was down 3 units all three that closed were branches.

There are over 600 people per unit... I couldn't find attendance figures, but would anyone here be surprised if 100 or less showed regularly?

By the time the 2020 elections heat up, the USA will be in significant turmoil. I think Mormonism is a lousy product and it's not likely that mormons are facing extradition to the mainland because of their religious believe.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2019 10:09PM by messygoop.

The current riots are a continuation of events several years ago. I bet that HK temple may re-open about the time things calm down again. It is after all, a small temple.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/08/asia/hong-kong-occupy-umbrella-protests-trial-intl/index.html

Please show ANY link between the current riots and the renovations of the Temple. ANY.

Are the riots and the Temple in the same location? Did you even bother to check? (they aren't, they are at least 11.6 miles apart and separated by Victoria Harbor)

I would love to see an actual link rather than some conspiracy theory that because riots are happening miles away and across a body of water, has any impact on the renovations that were scheduled a year ago, well before the protests were happening, regardless of how long unrest was in the area.

Unless the LDS leaders actually are Prophets, you're making stuff up again, just so you can spout your political nonsense.

Aren't the smaller temples closed every 20 to 30 years for maintenance and upgrades? HK China temple was dedicated in 1996. It's due for an overhaul.

This, exactly this. As Levi states, it's unlikely to have gotten enough use to warrant carpet replacement. It's probably just general upkeep on the building to maintain its value. LDS Corp is essentially a real estate company after all.

I get so sick and tired of seeing Lot’s Wife beating up on Jordan. Beating up on anyone, actually. Watching this rabid dog has become pretty tedious...

Give it a rest, please!

^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS !!!!!^^^^^^ It is now beyond tedious , please !

Then don't read my posts. Please!

Interesting... I get sick and tired of seeing Jordan derail thread after thread with political nonsense, hammering the same nonsense over and over again. I wish he'd give it a rest and stick to the topic.

To each their own I guess.

I am sick of both, if Jordan would stop derailing, Lot's Wife would stop beating him up. Either way it is making this place somewhere that is starting to annoy me.

I agree!!!

I meant I agree about Jordan derailing posts. It's good to have posters like Lot's Wife not let him get away with it. Jordan seems to be trying his hardest to agitate everyone. He needs to go away. Very few of his topics have anything to do with recovering from Mormonism.

A number, though not all, of those who dislike my holding Jargon accountable for his flights of fantasy share his political views. That includes some who append their usual names and some who hide behind anonymity.

heartbroken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I meant I agree about Jordan derailing posts. It's
> good to have posters like Lot's Wife not let him
> get away with it. Jordan seems to be trying his
> hardest to agitate everyone. He needs to go away.
> Very few of his topics have anything to do with
> recovering from Mormonism.

I agree.All he is here for is to stir up trouble then sit back and enjoy all the attention and the extra bonus of knowing he is ruining this place for some people. Typical troll behavior. Bait and cause disruption.

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting... I get sick and tired of seeing
> Jordan derail thread after thread with political
> nonsense, hammering the same nonsense over and
> over again. I wish he'd give it a rest and stick
> to the topic.
>
> To each their own I guess.

In the instance of HK, it is obvious to point to recent events.

HK is in an extremely precarious position just now. It remains to be seen where it is heading. Either way, large sections of downtown Hong Kong have been effectively shut down by these incidents. And that's going to affect the HK temple, regardless of what one thinks of the situation.

The closure is either coincidental timing, convenient timing or somewhere between the two.

I agree totally. He is targeted constantly.l One can disagree without calling the person a fool.

He is only targeted constantly because he constantly targets.

I find that somewhat ironic, Topper, given that you have in the past launched one or two threads solely to attack me. They were pulled almost immediately, but you are hardly the embodiment of either political neutrality or interpersonal temperance.

I see Lot's Wife as indirectly defending against a bully. One poster derails the thread and bullies any reply they don't like, calling names and hurling insults. She defends against that posturing. Sometime you have to be aggressive with bullies, but that doesn't guarantee they'll stop what they're doing.

Man! It makes you long for stated policies and someone to enforce them!

But then there goes our free agency!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2019 03:08PM by elderolddog.

Free agency is over rated.

Well shit.

All I wanted to do was point out the unnecessary spending of Widow's Mites, and I got a food fight!

I guess that tracks.

Unfortunately, on with the current climate for the Recovery from Mormonism board, any mention of any country is likely to turn political and ugly. Regardless of the original intent of the OP and how non-political your post is. If a particular poster can make even the slightest link to their political pet theories, they will and the thread will be completely derailed.

Thanks for the thumbs up, and for Jordan's take, which is fairly spot on, given the political climate in Hong Kong presently.

Because it is Communist ruled, I'm surprised it hasn't been closed because of violating the current order.

Regardless, whatever major renovations are underway if it is to be negotiated, will be monitored heavily by the existing government.

When I stayed in Shanghai on my way to Japan during my flight there and back, the government owned and operated hotel was not very private quarters. All around were cameras watching our every move. As visitors and guests we were being monitored every minute we were there. Even in our hotel room it felt like Big Brother was there watching to make sure we were not intelligence operatives passing through.

Picturing a LDS temple in Communist Hong Kong with renovations would include monitoring equipment for security by government officials to watch what goes on inside. Or it won't be approved.

I worked and lived in China and saw none of that.
This is re: big brother and cameras everywhere in China.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2019 07:03PM by Aquarius123.

Really? I was only there passing through on the Chinese government airlines. It was mandatory I had to stay overnight each way in Shanghai to take advantage of their super low airfare. :)

But the government owned and operated hotel was also set up and monitored by the government, as is the airport heightened security (think TSA on steroids!)

As a free spirited American passing through I felt like I stood out like Maria von Trapp in a convent. But I didn't do anything to get arrested or anything stupid. They did manage to break my luggage however between Shanghai and JFK airport, each way. Which totally pissed me off. It was on the Chinese side, not American that my luggage was broken. I don't know if it was deliberate or just careless, but if I travel again it won't be on Chinese government airlines.

I did get the sense I was being watched even in my hotel room while I was staying there. Everything was being monitored 24/7. Which isn't unusual in Communist countries. I studied that in Political Science as an undergrad. It is quite common to spy on foreigners visiting or traveling. The government monitors pretty much everything and everyone, including its own citizens. Who by the way turn up missing with regularity (CEO's especially of Chinese business interests.)

Hong Kong is a super rich and expensive country where the church can invest heavily in the infrastructure to spend, spend and spend more if it wants to hide more into its tax shelter there. Since it won't be taxed on the building aspect of the temple it sinks money into, it's another means to sink its assets into its commercial property holdings around the world.

If it's going to expand and build upon the property that is already there, it will make it even more valuable, will it not? That will add to the investment value, which the church is all about. Building profit and equity for its coffers.

It doesn't have to be busy to look and feel rich. It will keep the government happy to see the investment in the commercial aspect rather than selling the religion to its citizens.

Is it still legal to practice religion there? To proselytize it? I would think if China allows its citizens to practice a religion, it would still outlaw & prohibit the spreading of it. Including in Hong Kong.

Temples have little or no real estate investment value because you only make a profit on an investment when you sell it. For various reasons, they really can't/won't sell temple properties.

It is also not clear to me that temples in HK are property tax free. I doubt that they are. Not that being property tax free raises the value of a property. First, they won't sell it, and if they did, it would not be property tax free to the buyer unless that too was a charity. Being property tax free lowers the cost of ownership, though the cost of ownership is still considerable for utilities and maintenance.

the purpose of a tax shelter is to avoid income tax. Tithing is already tax free to start with. It needs no tax sheltering. Their business income is taxable, but that is true whether they spend that income on temples or not.

You stated in another thread that LDS Inc had to spend money on temples or it would become taxable if it just sat in a bank account. This is not true. Money does age into taxability. I have no idea where you got that idea from.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2019 06:22PM by Brother Of Jerry.

From watching documentaries on the Church of Scientology. That is how it invests its money is into building churches it doesn't even utilize for its laymembers. They pay for the buildings then they go unused. They use the buildings because if the money sat in bank accounts it would be taxable. Not if they use it for building churches as a "non-profit."

As for Hong Kong, it isn't a democracy, so its laws would be wholly different from ours I would think on what is taxable and what isn't. But I would also think that privatization of property there isn't what it is here.

But the real estate aspect of the church temple in Hong Kong is still sitting on Commercial Property. Not private residential. So if it is building equity and land value it is both taxed as a commercial property and commercial real estate holding for LDS church investments purposes.

From Wikipedia:

"Religion in Hong Kong is characterized by a multi-faith diversity of beliefs and practices.

"Most of the Hong Kong people of Chinese descent practice Chinese folk religion—which may include Confucian and Taoist doctrines and ritual traditions—or Buddhism, mostly of the Chinese variety.

+According to official statistics for the year 2016 among the Hong Kong people who belong to an organised religion there are: over 1 million Buddhists, over 1 million Taoists, 480,000 Protestants, 379,000 Catholics, 300,000 Muslims, 100,000 Hindus, 12,000 Sikhs, and other smaller communities."


And Wikipedia says the following about mormonism in Hong Kong, supporting my musing about the level of inactivity:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had 22,500 recorded members in Hong Kong in 2013. Among these, 5,565 are estimated to be active in the faith. (24.7% activity rate)

"The LDS Church first sent missionaries to Hong Kong in 1853 but did not establish headquarters until 1949. In 1996 the Church completed the Hong Kong China Temple in Kowloon. In 2005 the Church Administration Building Hong Kong was opened. The geographical administrative area for the China Hong Kong LDS Mission includes all of China."


Of course Wikipedia's entries can be edited/slanted, so with no available documentaries on the subject (which are never slanted) we can't really know the truth.

But religion has pretty free reign in Hong Kong, with the caveat that agents of the Mainland China government infiltrate all the western religions. There are probably a couple bishops who are in the pay of Beijing.

There are churches there, but not many of them. Many people are Taoists but if you,say, wanted to attend the a Catholic church, that's fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2019 07:08PM by Aquarius123.

Hong Kong RM here, 1987 - 1989.

The temple is in Kowloon Tong, one of the quietest parts of Kowloon (the mainland half of the city, opposite "Victoria" on Hong Kong Island).

I've been curious about the silence of the Hong Kong temple.

Hinckley announced it, said it would be a multiuse building, with mission home, mission office, chapel, car-park, and temple. It's a very classy looking building, looks like a train station, radiator grille, or something like that, well done in marble. Everyone was proud of the economy of the decision -- bulldoze the mission home and chapel, not buy new land, and stack everything up Hong Kong style.

Hinckley had a soft spot for Hong Kong, he, his wife, and all of his children came there one year for his birthday or something. Fall 1987.

So, 10 years after the temple opened, without much fanfare, the church had purchased a large plot of land across the street from the temple complex,

And built an ugly, sprawling building with surface parking (There is no surface parking in most parts of Hong Kong).

Here they are. Temple is looking sharp. New building is hidden in trees.
https://goo.gl/maps/f71cCPD1AA51LUhB9

I understand the secrecy, the not wanting to admit that Hinkley's experiment failed. But I'm surprised about the lack of gossip. Mormons love to gossip. I googled the question a couple years ago and got nowhere.

The interesting thing is that, presumably, the mission home, mission office and chapel have been mothballed in the Hong Kong temple for 5 or 10 years. And now they're remodeling. Will they leave it vacant? I can't imagine they'd to a major shuffling of spaces, since there's not likely much demand for more sessions, and it would have to all flow together somehow.

Maybe the temple president and matron will get big new offices.

I think my mission president and wife, Charles and Helen Goo, were temple presidents a few years ago. There's 30 year mission reunion next month, but I can't attend (would probably attend for fun if I was in Utah), so if I ever see them again I'll pop the question.

Thanks to Levi for posting an interesting topic. Perhaps there should be an "off topic" room for folks who want to discuss governments, economics, etc.

RG

Here are the two of them side by side.

I'm going with Hinckley's temple being the classy, economical choice.

How in heck did the Mormon church manage to build such a fugly chapel with cheap finishes after they did such a good job with the temple?

The temple fits in, looks sharp. The chapel is chintzy, and obviously a huge waste of money because its squat and has a parking lot...

https://goo.gl/maps/nkxPFqReU1BGkHbCA