https://religionnews.com/2019/07/19/israeli-archaeologists-discover-signs-of-religion-in-9000-year-old-city-near-jerusalem/

Wow, 3,000 years before death came into the world. I wonder what that must have been like.
;)

BRM/JFS/Cleon must be spinning in their graves. Some day archeologists will be hard-pressed to explain the circular burn marks they have uncovered in Utah.

This is a GREAT article!

Thank you, Brother of Jerry!

Do you have any money?

We have sufficient for our needs. There’s this great little deli outside of Jerusalem.

Haha! Do they have good bagels?

I wonder how much that is going to connect to the Jerusalem that came later, if at all?

Some of these ancient settlements seem to have depleted local soil etc quickly or moved to better defensive positions (with an increased population you get bigger armies)... So it's likely IMO there was some connection with Jerusalem, although maybe not provable.

How can that possibly be. We all know the earth is only 6000 years old!!!

#6 is just #9 upside down.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #6 is just #9 upside down.

:D

The Israel of today has truly blossomed into an oasis in the middle of a desert. It is a land of milk and honey.

From the south to the north, Eilat to Haifa, and east to west, Jerusalem to Tel Aviv, there is great diversity and scenery in each geographic sector of the country to take in. It is neither a boring or wasteful country at all IMO.

I hope to be able to visit there someday before I'm too old to make the trip.

Caesarea is one of Israel's ancient cities, but I don't believe even that goes back that far in time.

If 9,000 years ago someone named a city after Caesar, s/he was indeed a prophet.

I had fun in Israel. Great wind surfing on the sea of Galilee. Nice beaches on the Med. Did some Red Sea scuba diving as well. Lot's of old interesting ruins. Fun to see all the religious tourism in Jerusalem. Lot's of zealots. Fun to watch that circus.

Israel-Palestine is a strange place - on the one hand you have Tel Aviv which seems to have largely emerged in the twentieth century and then a few miles down the road, you have Jericho, which I believe holds the record for longest continually inhabited settlement in the world. Jerusalem itself is thousands of years old. I suppose that sums up the place - a country born only a few years after WWII with roots going back further than ancient Rome.

I get the impression some of these ancient settlements were very wasteful, and just seem to have built upon their piles of trash. They must have been very unhealthy places.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Israel-Palestine is a strange place

I dunno what this means.


> On the one hand you have Tel Aviv which seems to have largely
> emerged in the twentieth century

True--prior to 1910, it was "a sand dune." The beginnings of Tel Aviv as we know it today began in 1910.


> ....and then a few miles down the road, you have Jericho,
> which I believe holds the record for longest continually
> inhabited settlement in the world.

I believe this is true. When I was there, we parked in a bus on land which overlooks present-day Jericho (including the archaeological digs), and Eliyahu (our guide) said: "There it is!" We weren't allowed to exit the bus because there was too much danger of snipers--which was a disappointment to me, because of everything in Israel, I MOST wanted to see Jericho--but our armed guard said (in colloquial Hebrew): "Absolutely no way!"

Generously described, I have seen SOME of the TOP of Jericho. Quel dommage.

"Down the road" would sort of indicate "towards Lebanon" (meaning: to the north). In actuality, from Tel Aviv you would drive east, towards the Jordan River, and it is about 45 miles from Tel Aviv to Jericho.


> I get the impression some of these ancient
> settlements were very wasteful, and just seem to
> have built upon their piles of trash. They must
> have been very unhealthy places.

I really don't understand (or can imagine) what you mean by "wasteful." There was hardly any trash generated in ancient times, because most everything except for animal bones and pieces of accidentally-broken pottery was recycled. The big exception would be when foreign forces would sweep into the area and intentionally destroy the buildings (and either murder the town's residents, or take them away to be slaves)--after which, at some point in the future, a new town would gradually be built again on top of the previous layer of destruction. (There was a reason why that town had been built there, probably having to do with a reliable water supply, and that reason would attract future residents to that place to begin all over again.)

But basically: What in the world would those people WASTE? I can't imagine ANYTHING which would fit the bill. (Even poop was recycled, in one way or another.)

So far as being unhealthy, Jews (compared to most other of their contemporary neighbors or opposing forces) tended to eat healthy, and they WERE healthier because they washed every part of their bodies a minimum of once a week, before Shabbat. (This is simplified: in real life gender is involved in the minimum requirements, but, on average, this is a true statement.) They also dressed in clean clothes after they immersed themselves in the mikvah (ritual bath), which meant that their exposure to disease was radically reduced when compared to non-Jews of that era. Better food, prepared with conscientious care (including some prohibitions which just happen to result in healthy outcomes), and body, clothing, and living area cleanliness (cleaning up living areas before Shabbat is universal), means a whole lot more healthy people, who tend to stay MUCH healthier throughout their lives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2019 02:09AM by Tevai.

We were in Jericho in October with no problem. It was a hurried trip and we didnt see a lot but had lunch there, did some shopping and a little siteseeing. I wish we had had more time, but everything is too rushed on tours. Sorry you didnt get to see more.Jericho does claim to be the oldest inhabited city on earth. Other cities claim the same though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2019 11:24PM by bona dea.

What a wonderful experience you had!

I would have loved to have had that same kind of opportunity because I am very much interested in the archaeology.

Thank you for posting this, bona dea. I am glad you were there when it was safe.

Maybe you can go back some time. I want to see more. On a tour, you dont always get to see everything you want or spend as much time as you wish in a given place. If you are alone, dont speak the language or know your way around, I guess it is best the first time.

Hi Tevai, I mainly meant Israel was a strange place in terms of having the very ancient and brand new slap bang next to each other. It manages to be both at the same time in a way that most other places do not. (I suppose China does, but in a very different way.)

As for wasteful, I agree they generated a lot less waste than we do today, but I think these very ancient aocieties seem not to have had such a sense of waste disposal. Some of these ancient towns seem to have become high mounds (tels), because their trash piled up, and then they built on top of that. A bit alien to hs today, since modern cities tend to (or are supposed to) have means to deal with that. I think in one of the neolithic settlements in what is now Turkey, people used to bury their dead relatives in the floor of their own homes!

Modern Jews in contrast seem to have strict rules about food (esp. slaughtering), burial and cleanliness as you say. These people would be ancestors of the Jews (and some of the Arabs) but a lot less developed in some senses.

There’s a famous picture of the future Tel Aviv taken in 1909. It’s a group of people standing in a barren desert sand dune. I mean literally nothing there. All of that irrigation, building modern buildings is mind boggling.
Jews were blamed for lots of diseases and plaques, especially in the middle age time period because most of them were still healthy during outbreaks. They were accused of poisoning wells because they didn’t use unsanitary wells and were always keeping kosher and staying clean, bathing in the mikveh once a week s others only bathing few times a year, yep,that’ll do it too.

Perhaps that is what helped them to survive down through the centuries. That and divine intercession which they also (truly) believe in.

>>
Perhaps that is what helped them to survive down through the centuries. That and divine intercession which they also (truly) believe in.


That "divine intercession" with the holocaust was another huge help.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> Perhaps that is what helped them to survive down
> through the centuries. That and divine
> intercession which they also (truly) believe in.
>
>
> That "divine intercession" with the holocaust was
> another huge help.

From the ashes of the Holocaust rose Israel, like a phoenix. That was the miracle and answered prayer for the Jews of the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the result of great evil which was used instead to accomplish great good in the end. Evil did not triumph. God's purpose was fulfilled and so was biblical prophecy to bring the Jewish people back to their homeland and gather in the Diaspora from the four corners of the earth. That too, has occurred since then in fulfillment of prophecy (biblical.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 01:31PM by Amyjo.

Oh good grief.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I really don't understand (or can imagine) what
> you mean by "wasteful." There was hardly any
> trash generated in ancient times, because most
> everything except for animal bones and pieces of
> accidentally-broken pottery was recycled.

Pottery was recycled. See
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracon

It's not so easy getting to Jericho from Tel Aviv. You start at seal level, drive up into some elevation and then go down a steep incline and end up below sea level.

Was it Bethlehem ? *LOL*

Maybe I am.missing something, but why would it be Bethlehem? Bethlehem has been around since OT times and isnt a buried city. Ergo, no need to find Bethlehm. It is there for all to see and has been for ages

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe I am.missing something, but why would it be
> Bethlehem? Bethlehem has been around since OT
> times and isnt a buried city. Ergo, no need to
> find Bethlehm. It is there for all to see and has
> been for ages

This was my question too.

You can see Bethlehem from Jerusalem--it basically adjoins Jerusalem. [Maybe not technically, but for practical purposes it kind of does. The legalities of "what" fits "where" are complicated.]

In any case, Bethlehem is a very much alive, highly populated, busy urban area.

I was wondering if he meant Nazareth since mythicist often bring up up the debunked claim that Nazareth didnt exist in the time of Jesus. This ignores the fact that it was likely tiny then and hat archaeologists have found artifacts from the early 1st century. Regardless, Nazareth, if that is what he meant, isnt in the same area as Bethlehem or Jerusalem and is now a very large city which definitely exists. Who knows? Regardless, I dont get the point.

Well, we know that Bethlehem is a little town...

Oh little town of Bethlehem to the tune of house of the rising sun

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cbk8f7f5OI

Thanks. I think I meant Nazareth.

any / how many gold plates?

If there were any gold plates near Jerusalem they'd have already been mined by now.

"There's money to be made in them thar hills!" They call Jerusalem the "City of Gold," but that carries a symbolic meaning, associated with the promotion of Jewish learning.

and I *hope* we can save it...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2019 09:14AM by anybody.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/oven-was-used-make-bread-thousands-years-agriculture


So roughly 8,000 years before biblical-minded finger-counters say Adam & Eve were thrown out of Club Eden for 'KNOWING", people in what is now N/E Jordan ...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jordan/@30.5130237,35.624563,865217m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x15006f476664de99:0x8d285b0751264e99!8m2!3d30.585164!4d36.238414

... were baking falafels, kind of, maybe, sort of...

Or maybe it was an early version of Wonder Bread?

There is more even further back.

Prehistoric Huts of Hunter-Gatherers Discovered in Jordan, Archaeologists Wonder How Humans Lived 20,000 Years Ago
https://www.ibtimes.com/prehistoric-huts-hunter-gatherers-discovered-jordan-archaeologists-wonder-how-humans-lived-20000

Twenty Thousand-Year-Old Huts at a Hunter-Gatherer Settlement in Eastern Jordan
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0031447

This is always interesting. I keep waiting for fundamentalists who believe in 6000 year old earth to rationalize this.

jeez! You think when ghawd 'built' this world, not only did he use the ancient interiors of other planets, but also old surface dwellings from those older planets? And by coincidence put these old artifacts near the surface of our earth?

And what about the people who lived on those planets?


We do have an indication that ghawd doesn't mind exterminating his human creations. The star that went nova to be seen in Israel as the sign of the coming of the son of man might have had a populated planet in orbit around it... Too bad, so sad.

Mormons must be really super gobsmacked because of the geological wonders surrounding them throughout the Morridor that are older than hundreds of thousands of years.

Bear Lake for one. That is more than 250,000 years old. Some of my pioneer ancestors helped settle that area, and my dad's mother was born there. That lake is magical. There are several species of fish unique only to Bear Lake that live there. The water is aqua blue, it looks like a little Caribbean in the middle of the Rockies. "Bear Lake is home to several native species of fish that are not found anywhere else in the world, including the Bonneville Cisco and the Bear Lake Whitefish, and the Bear Lake Cutthroat Trout. The lake is often referred to as Utah's Caribbean, because of its turquoise blue color. Why is the water so blue? Its beautiful and unique green-blue color comes from particles of calcium carbonate (limestone) that are suspended in the water."

http://www.utahfishinginfo.com/utahlakes/bearlake.php

(I doubt that the age of Bear Lake was taught to the first generation Mormons who settled there, or even their next generation descendants. ...)

And the Native American Indians who lived there for quite possibly 10,000-15,000 years through the Utah and Idaho (as other western) territories before they became states.

Tiberias, Galilee, Caesarea, Jaffa, Eilat, even Bethlehem which is mostly populated by Arab Muslims, would be on my wish list of places to visit if I get the chance to.

Some of Israel's most ancient cities that are known listed here:

https://www.frommers.com/destinations/israel/the-best-ancient-cities

Caesarea is quite possibly my favorite, followed by Tiberias. The Rothschild Foundation was established for Caesarea to fund its youth education, tourism, and cultural arts programs.

https://www.caesarea.com/en/

I've been through Tveria [Tiberias], on the chartered bus, when our group was on the way to nearby Tsfat ["Safed"]. Both are acknowledged as two of the "four holy cities of Judaism."

I would like to return to Tsfat because my first visit there was not happy. [When our group entered one of the town's many synagogues, chosen, I think, more or less randomly, some elderly man began shouting at all of us, screaming as loudly, and as crazily, as he could that we were desecrating and disrespecting the shul, and God, because we were a mixed male/female group--but mostly just because there were women coming in the "front" door. This was not a good experience for any of us, but to us women, it was akin to unexpectedly getting punched, hard!, in the jaw. It was certainly an unforgettable experience, and gave me some idea of what Israeli schoolgirls often have to deal with.]

The "four holy cities of Judaism" are:

1) Jerusalem (since the lifetime of King David; 10th century BCE)

2) Hebron (the--at least traditional--burial place of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah)

3) Tsfat/"Safed": One of the world's most unexpected towns to become a through-the-centuries religious tourist attraction. Following the Spanish, and then the Portuguese, expulsions of their Jews in the late 1400s, Tsfat inadvertently became "the" place where many of the most intellectually/spiritually advanced Jews chose to settle. Tsfat had a tax system which encouraged the immigration of displaced Jews, as well as a growing textile manufacturing industry which became economically important to those displaced Jews (and to their descendants).

Many of what became the all-time intellectual giants of Jewish history chose Tsfat as their new home--which meant that those same people are buried in Tsfat, and those graves have become pilgrimage sites over the succeeding centuries.

4) Tveria/Tiberias: In the 18th and 19th centuries, a major center of Jewish learning.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2019 06:57PM by Tevai.

That's really neat to know. I've thought Tiberias was a pretty lakeside town overlooking the sea of Galilee. I hope you get to go back also to re-visit Tsfat. That's not a nice way to remember your trip by some misogynistic miscreants.

Real estate prices are so high in Israel I don't know how middle class people can afford to buy or even rent there.

There have been class revolts in recent years because of the inability of working poor to be able to afford the housing market in places like Tel Aviv and elsewhere. The cost of living is high to the point where the elderly are faced with choosing between heat for their apartments or medicine and food.

More money goes into the military by necessity. I know Israel tries to have a decent welfare system, but it still only has a bare bones program to help the poor help themselves.. its socialized health care system is still better than average compared to others around the world.

Tiberias is a pretty lakeside town. And Caesarea is ocean view. If I were to choose to live in either place I'd try Caesarea first if there were apartments for sale within my price range. It seems more peaceful there. It's also a very uppity high upper income class area because of the luxury building going on. Netanyahu has his home there and other elites.

Not sure there's much of a middle class in Caesarea, but I could be wrong.

I have some art I purchased when our synagogue sold off its property last year to downsize to a new building. One is a original painting of Tiberias. It is a watercolor, and may be older. I'm not really sure. But I'm glad I was able to purchase it at the art auction. Another "find" was a very old map diagram of Old Jerusalem - in a large heavy frame. It looked like it came from another time and place. So I googled when I got it home, and it is.

It is a "Bird's Eye etching of Jerusalem" made in 1656. It is quite rare. I believe I have a print of the etching. From Christie's:

"HOLLAR, Wenceslaus (1607-1677). Ierusalem. Hierusalem Veteris Imago Vera. London: 1660.

Fantastic artistic recreation of ancient Jerusalem, complete with the Temple envisaged before its destruction. Hollar, one of the 17th century's most skilful and prolific artists and etchers, presents the Temple as though it were a Renaissance-style palace. Built on an enormous masonry base, the huge neo-classical building is surrounded by colonnades, and connected at its sides to the surrounding city by arched bridges over steep ravines. The city buildings themselves have an architectural air of 17th-century London. Hollar was born in Prague into a protestant family that had been given the right to bear arms. His father was an official at the land registry, and seems to have intended his son to follow a similar bureaucratic or legal career. However, probably without any formal artistic training, Hollar left Prague at the age of 20 and emigrated first to Stuttgart, then Strasbourg, before finally working for the publisher Matthäus Merian in Frankfurt. By the mid 1630s, Hollar was publishing his views of the Rhine. In 1636 he met Thomas Howard, second earl of Arundel, at Cologne, and duly followed him back to London. There he lodged in Arundel House, courted other patrons, and started to produce his first major productions in England. The present lot is rare: we have only been able to trace 2 copies at auction in the past 40 years (ABPC/RBH)."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2019 08:14PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's really neat to know. I've thought Tiberias
> was a pretty lakeside town overlooking the sea of
> Galilee.

When we went through Tiberias, I remember thinking it would be a nice place for people to live. It is pretty, and it is right on the lake.


> Real estate prices are so high in Israel I don't
> know how middle class people can afford to buy or
> even rent there.

In general, and in most of Israel, real estate prices are very high--to a startling level by our standards.

There are ways to reduce those prices, though. Nefesh b'Nefesh ("soul to soul," by my translation: a non-profit organization which facilitates Aliyah for new olim [immigrants to Israel]) has been, for at least a couple of years now, recommending Israel's South as a place to create a new Israeli home. If you have any interest at all in making Aliyah, please go to YouTube, do a search for Nefesh b'Nefesh, and then binge watch the dozens of different videos which come up--especially those which recommend choosing Israel's "South" instead of the other possibile options.

I am not exactly either recommending, or NOT recommending, Nefesh b'Nefesh itself (I have read both over-the-top positive reviews of their services, and also some reviews which are somewhat less than gushing ;) ), but I would certainly check them out as Numero Uno if I were thinking about making Aliyah. Whatever you ask them, they will be able to answer, and they are extremely practical (they have to be).


> Tiberias is a pretty lakeside town.

Yes.


> And Caesarea is ocean view. If I were to choose to live in
> either place I'd try Caesarea first if there were
> apartments for sale within my price range. It
> seems more peaceful there. It's also a very uppity
> high upper income class area because of the luxury
> building going on.

I don't know about Caesarea, but you need to factor humidity into your personal calculations. When I got to Jerusalem, I was astounded by the high humidity (which I am not used to; I am a born and bred desert rat) IN JERUSALEM! For one thing, I had not yet factored in the smallness of Israel, so my mental idea was that Jerusalem was WAY far away from the Mediterranean, which it is NOT. By California standards, it is just down the road a bit. In Caesarea, or Tel Aviv, or Haifa (which is one of the most integrated, and amiable, cities in Israel), or just about any place that is not absolute desert, high humidity is going to be a fact of life.


> Not sure there's much of a middle class in
> Caesarea, but I could be wrong.

I have no idea.


> I have some art I purchased when our synagogue
> sold off its property last year to downsize to a
> new building. One is a original painting of
> Tiberias. It is a watercolor, and may be older.
> I'm not really sure. But I'm glad I was able to
> purchase it at the art auction. Another "find" was
> a very old map diagram of Old Jerusalem - in a
> large heavy frame. It looked like it came from
> another time and place. So I googled when I got it
> home, and it is.
>
> It is a "Bird's Eye etching of Jerusalem" made in
> 1656. It is quite rare. I believe I have a print
> of the etching. From Christie's:
>
> "HOLLAR, Wenceslaus (1607-1677). Ierusalem.
> Hierusalem Veteris Imago Vera. London: 1660.
>
> Fantastic artistic recreation of ancient
> Jerusalem, complete with the Temple envisaged
> before its destruction. Hollar, one of the 17th
> century's most skilful and prolific artists and
> etchers, presents the Temple as though it were a
> Renaissance-style palace. Built on an enormous
> masonry base, the huge neo-classical building is
> surrounded by colonnades, and connected at its
> sides to the surrounding city by arched bridges
> over steep ravines. The city buildings themselves
> have an architectural air of 17th-century London.
> Hollar was born in Prague into a protestant family
> that had been given the right to bear arms. His
> father was an official at the land registry, and
> seems to have intended his son to follow a similar
> bureaucratic or legal career. However, probably
> without any formal artistic training, Hollar left
> Prague at the age of 20 and emigrated first to
> Stuttgart, then Strasbourg, before finally working
> for the publisher Matthäus Merian in Frankfurt.
> By the mid 1630s, Hollar was publishing his views
> of the Rhine. In 1636 he met Thomas Howard, second
> earl of Arundel, at Cologne, and duly followed him
> back to London. There he lodged in Arundel House,
> courted other patrons, and started to produce his
> first major productions in England. The present
> lot is rare: we have only been able to trace 2
> copies at auction in the past 40 years
> (ABPC/RBH)."

Your artwork sounds beautiful. :)


More about housing: If you buy "West Bank"/"settlement"/across the Green Line land, and aside from the considerable moral and ethical issues which go along with this kind of purchase, you might lose it in a future negotiation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (I think it is called), or whatever. The positives of buying housing on occupied land include MUCH lower purchase costs, I have heard that especially attractive financing is part of the package, with MUCH better schools, usually MANY more attractive amenities like parks, excellent suburban shopping centers, recreational centers, etc.--but I would assume that for most people the inner, personal "cost" of living on that land might be very high. As in the Saudi Arabian "American compounds," the new Israeli houses built on this land are largely built in 1950s San Fernando Valley suburban style (think: "The Brady Bunch"), so they're new, they are immensely functional, and they are attractive to American sensibilities.

They also lead into a further necessary discussion: the neighborhood you might buy into. By necessity, many different areas of Israel are EXTREMELY "neighborhood oriented"--which, in this sense, means that "like" attracts "like," and "unlike" becomes a real problem for everyone much of the time. (This isn't true of ALL of Israel: Tel Aviv would be an exception, and possibly Haifa, and possibly cities like Ra'anana (which began as a brand new city on the plain, with residents who were largely new olim).

Most Israeli "neighborhoods" are fairly self-segregated according to levels of observance: Modern Orthodox with Modern Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox with ultra-Orthodox, and secular with secular. These are groups which do NOT "integrate" well when it comes to the practical realities of living lives. Your level of [Jewish] observance will COUNT if you move to a community where you are the outlier in Orthodox Jewish culture, and this will be true of how you dress, and whether you play your TV set (etc.) on Shabbat, or even whether you start up your car (on Shabbat, when there is no medical emergency going on).

You need to choose a specifically Christian neighborhood (I am assuming that they exist), or a specifically secular neighborhood, or (as I understand from what I was told) move to Haifa or Tel Aviv if you are going to be non-observant according to Jewish law.

So, three things:

1) Most of Israel is humid, and your ability to live happily with humidity is a real concern for you if you decide to move there (unless you move to South Israel, which is desert).

2) See every single YouTube video Nefesh b'Nefesh has, and pay particular attention to anything which would impact your Aliyah, or your particular life as you would choose it to be in Israel.

3) When it comes to neighborhoods, make CERTAIN that you will "fit in" with the prevailing median in that particular neighborhood, or EVERYONE is going to be miserable--most especially YOU.

And now you know everything I know about real estate in Israel.

If you ever decide to do this, remember what I said here. It can make the difference between a successful Aliyah and an Aliyah that is not successful.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2019 11:49PM by Tevai.

I think of all the towns I visited in Israel, Safed was the prettiest. There is a bit of an artists' colony there and a lot of old buildings. (My only gripe against Safed was the accom I stayed in had fleas in it!)

A lot of towns in Israel are too new for my liking. I could just about put up with the Bauhaus architecture in parts of Tel Aviv, but I didn't find it an attractive place.

Tiberias was okay IMO and a good starting point for visiting areas around Kinneret/Sea of Galilee. I did find a very nice place to stay there though.

The most beautiful part of Israel IMHO was in the far north and the Golan Heights - unfortunately a dangerous area.

I would never want to live in Israel though permanently, even if I were Jewish.

My daughter lives in southern Israel.

Regarding humidity, on the seashore where the Mediterranean sea climate mixes with the breeze the humidity would be tempered a bit by the location.

Inland though I should think the humidity would feel more heavy. Lakes have a lake effect which is cooling around the area closest to them.

Best times to visit Israel are spring and fall. My daughter made Aliyah going through Nefesh b'Nefesh.

I've heard of the settlements also in the West Bank. As I approach retirement I try to keep an open mind to living in Israel, but I'm more inclined to stay here due to the cost of living being more affordable, and the language barrier.

I have so many cousins who are Jewish. Now that I'm on the Jewish DNA database I'm surprised how many 2nd and third cousins there are extending outward. They are mostly Ashkenazi, having anywhere from 85% to 95% DNA on average. Whereas I'm only 12.7% Ashkenazi.

The ones who I'm most closely related to though was my cousin Peter who passed on two years ago. His wife and children still remain in Israel. It was a huge disappointment I didn't get to meet him. He was the genealogist who introduced me to the Jewish side of my family tree. My daughter spent a week with his family in 2012. He told me she was "just like family" when she stayed with them. :) (ETA: Peter and I are about as closely related as I am to Olivia Newton-John and her family. Peter is not impressed too much with her Nobel prize winning grandfather, Max Born, who fled Germany in 1933 and converted to Christianity in an effort to assimilate from a Jew to a cultural German. Peter viewed that as being a traitor to the Jewish faith. Albeit Max may also have been as motivated to converting because his wife, Hedi, was of mixed parentage half-Jewish and raised Christian. So he may have converted to be on the same page with her in raising their children. His son would later say of his father though that Max was a Deist (neither Jew or Christian.) Hedi was a direct descendant of Martin Luther. They had a difficult marriage, but Max never thought of leaving her. They stuck it out through thick and thin. Just opposite personalities.

Daughter may have more Ashkenazi DNA than I do since her paternal grandmother was Jewish, whose parents were murdered in the Warsaw ghetto during the Holocaust.

If I were to seriously consider living in Israel I'd visit there first to see what the neighborhoods are like. I worship at a Conservative Synagogue here. They aren't too common over there. So I'm not sure how that would play out. Nor am I all that observant. I'm semi-active where I live. Not secular at all. Just not totally into it because I haven't made it my life passion. My puppy takes up more of my time right now than anything else. She's a full-time job when I'm at home!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 12:26PM by Amyjo.

"If I were to seriously consider living in Israel I'd visit there first to see what the neighborhoods are like. I worship at a Conservative Synagogue here. They aren't too common over there. So I'm not sure how that would play out. Nor am I all that observant"

I met quite a lot of Jewish people over there who were like that - their Jewishness was more cultural/ancestral than religious. (Others were at the opposite extreme - I didn't warm to Chabad and the ultra-Orthodox types TBH.) So I'm sure there must be plenty of Conservative synagogues there (pretty much every variety of Judaism is on display there).

The main problem must be the language. Road signage is often in English and Arabic, but I don't know what it would be like to deal with masses of paperwork in Hebrew (tax docs etc).

I definitely wouldn't want to live in the West Bank. The legal status of those settlements is questionable, and at some point you may be forced to move at short notice.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If I were to seriously consider living in Israel
> I'd visit there first to see what the
> neighborhoods are like. I worship at a
> Conservative Synagogue here. They aren't too
> common over there. So I'm not sure how that would
> play out. Nor am I all that observant"
>
> I met quite a lot of Jewish people over there who
> were like that - their Jewishness was more
> cultural/ancestral than religious.

I consider myself to be religious. It's just that I find myself at a disadvantage having not grown up Jewish or otherwise gone through Jewish conversion classes like our friend Tevai has to become Jewish. I don't speak Hebrew, although there are many Jews where I worship who don't either. I'm accepted as one, so that isn't a problem. It is more than a cultural/ancestral connection to me, though that may be a part of why I identify as one. It is most definitely a spiritual connection and a religious one, because I identify with Judaism as a religion. I'm just not as religiously observant as most observant Jews I know.

(Others were at
> the opposite extreme - I didn't warm to Chabad and
> the ultra-Orthodox types TBH.) So I'm sure there
> must be plenty of Conservative synagogues there
> (pretty much every variety of Judaism is on
> display there).

Conservative and Reform rabbis are largely unemployed in Israel. Conservative and Reform Judaism is a tiny minority in the country, but appears to be growing. Orthodox Judaism is the prevailing sect to this day. The rest of Israelis who are Jewish are typically secular.
>
> The main problem must be the language. Road
> signage is often in English and Arabic, but I
> don't know what it would be like to deal with
> masses of paperwork in Hebrew (tax docs etc).
>
> I definitely wouldn't want to live in the West
> Bank. The legal status of those settlements is
> questionable, and at some point you may be forced
> to move at short notice.

Israelis are not going to give up anything unless they fight to the death for it.

That's why they moved in to stake their claim. Ain't no one going to make them move unless their government is overthrown. The IDF isn't going to let that happen.

"In the land of Israel anyone who doesn't believe in miracles is not a realist." David Ben Gurion

"We Jews have a secret weapon in our war with the Arabs; we have nowhere else to go ... we have to fight." Golda Meir

Israel is but a tiny sliver of land in both directions, app the same size as New Jersey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 01:18PM by Amyjo.

I hate to say it, but Golda Meir is wrong there. Jews may have an attachment to Israel for historical reasons, but there are plenty of other places where they prosper, such as the USA or Australia, and it's not as if life in Israel has been a smooth or peaceful ride. (I'm told, although I can't verify this, that Ms Meir retained an American passport until the end of her life.) One sees soldiers so frequently in Israel they become invisible. Whenever I rode on Egged, there always seemed to be young soldiers around the age of LDS missionaries.

The Israeli government seems to have an ambivalent attitude towards aome of the West Bank settlements IMO. There are free agents who go and build their own places, and then the IDF seems to have to go in and defend them when there is a backlash. I have heard of some of these buildings being demolished, but I think if there is some future peace deal, these Jewish West Bank settlements are going to be a bargaining chip with the Palestinians.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hate to say it, but Golda Meir is wrong there.

I don't know what she said.


> Jews may have an attachment to Israel for
> historical reasons, but there are plenty of other
> places where they prosper, such as the USA or
> Australia, and it's not as if life in Israel has
> been a smooth or peaceful ride.

This isn't about "prospering," nor having a "smooth or peaceful ride."

> (I'm told, although I can't verify this, that Ms Meir
> retained an American passport until the end of her
> life.)

She may well have. Had I been in her position, I certainly would have retained my American passport. Wouldn't you?


> One sees soldiers so frequently in Israel
> they become invisible. Whenever I rode on Egged,
> there always seemed to be young soldiers around
> the age of LDS missionaries.

Yup. It is a small country, and most Israelis have military obligations. (As a secondary responsibility, the military functions as an immersion experience to get everyone who goes through military service, including newer or new immigrants from around the world, onto an equal basis with any other Israeli: Hebrew fluency, sense of citizenship responsibilities, practical cultural mastery, etc.)

One of the most fascinating things to me about the Israeli military is how many non-Israeli Jews, from foreign countries such as the USA, volunteer to do "their" IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) service even though they are neither residents nor citizens of Israel.

Most of these new recruits become "lone soldiers" [means: military personnel who do not have other family in Israel], and it's often a rough go for them, but in many American/Canadian/European Jewish communities, IDF service is a sort of rite of passage into real adulthood--just like it is in Israel.

Many other non-Israelis do NON-military volunteer service, and they do that service with the same difficulties as the "lone soldiers." (The way Israeli military service is set up, there is an "assumed" expectation that IDF members DO have family in Israel, and can get different kinds of practical support from family members just by asking for it. To those who do NOT have this kind of back-up support, IDF service can be really difficult--but there are now facilities in place where "lone soliders" can go for Shabbat and Jewish holiday dinners, get their personal needs (like laundry) met--and just have a place to hang out when they need to hang out.)

There are many videos/personal stories on YouTube: search for "lone soldiers in Israel" to get a handle on what being an IDF lone soldier means to someone like an American, and also what that experience feels like.

I agree with you: IDF personnel are ubiquitous in Israel. (And they make TERRIFIC global aviation "screeners" after their IDF service is over--the one who screened me at LAX, as I was on the first leg of my flight to Israel, was incredibly good, and from her appearance, she looked like she was about sixteen years old and photo-ready to be featured on a TEEN magazine cover.)


> The Israeli government seems to have an ambivalent
> attitude towards aome of the West Bank settlements
> IMO. There are free agents who go and build their
> own places, and then the IDF seems to have to go
> in and defend them when there is a backlash. I
> have heard of some of these buildings being
> demolished, but I think if there is some future
> peace deal, these Jewish West Bank settlements are
> going to be a bargaining chip with the
> Palestinians.

Right now, the settlements are serving a need (early warning, and a slowdown of incoming assault troops on the perimeter, should a war begin again).

It would depend on the particular settlement (they tend to be radically different in their community philosophies), but overall, I think probably about 75% of the adult settlers, not counting retirees who came from abroad, have IDF experience, and they ARE armed.

In the future, I agree that there will likely be some readjustments, and maybe the settlements will stay (I personally think they will, at least in large part)--but if so, they're likely to be newly integrated in ways they haven't been up to now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 07:48PM by Tevai.

> Right now, the settlements are serving a need
> (early warning, and a slowdown of incoming assault
> troops, on the perimeter, should a war begin
> again).

I think this is incorrect. Israel has an excellent technological warning systems; there is virtually no possibility of an invading force evading such systems and then appearing on someone's doorstep unannounced. The settlements are about domestic politics, not defense.



---------------
> In the future, I agree that there will likely be
> some readjustments, and maybe the settlements will
> stay (I personally think they will, at least in
> large part)--but if so, they're likely to be
> integrated in ways they haven't been up to now.

What worries me about this, and about the whole thread, is that there is no mention of the needs and desires of the vast majority of people living in the West Bank. Historical and religious arguments notwithstanding, the fate of Israel will not be decided by Israeli Jews alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 07:47PM by Lot's Wife.

As someone who has been to Israel a number of times, I am chagrined by one omission in this discussion.

The thread started out about archaeology, then turned into travelogues about the country and ultimately, inevitably, preaching. Fulfillment of biblical prophesy? My heavens, will the fulfillment of the prophesy of the destruction of the world likewise be celebrated? Yet what really bothers me, what worries me, is the one-sided nature of the conversation.

In short, the "miracle" of modern Israel is ethnicity-dependent. For almost half of the residents--one cannot say "citizens," which is itself a telling observation--modern Israel is not that nice a place. Has no one but me been to the Occupied Territories and seen the way Palestinian Arabs live? Did no one on their tours of the Holy Land notice the camps in which the Ethiopian Jews, the Beta Jews, have lived for decades? The failure of Israel to integrate Jews of a different race is frankly appalling.

What happened to the Jews historically, and particularly during the pogroms and then the Holocaust, was horrific. The desire for an independent state in a distinct territory was readily understandable. But for almost half of its inhabitants, Israel did not emerge as a responsible or ethical government; and soon the Palestinian Arabs will comprise a majority of the population, transforming Israel into a minority dictatorship.

I am surprised that the profound flaws in the Israeli state and the Israeli vision have not even registered in this thread. Are we so culturally myopic that we cannot see how half of the people of Israel live?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 02:56PM by Lot's Wife.

If you could please quote from scripture where it says The Chosen People have to be nice to people who are Unchosen, that would be nice... /s


One of the givens of Judaism/Christianity is that there will be Jews in the Holy Land when the Messiah arrives/returns. Los mormones are very specific about the future history of the Holyland! They've labeled the rides, divided it up into theme areas (New Born BabyLand, NazareneLand, TempleLand, HungOutToDryLand and that great dining experience, Gethsemane Grill), and even set a time table, which is currently counting down.

It is literally inconceivable to Christians and Jews that reestablished land of the Jews could be wrested away from them, meaning now, that the nation of Israel could cease to exist and that the surviving Jews could be a conquered people. "Impossible!" shouts our Christian/Jewish sensibility!

But as we are all too often taught, the future isn't always what we planned it to be.



Dig this: Islam is also waiting for the return of Jesus. It's a big deal to them, too! Did I know that? No, I did not!

From Wikipedia:

"In Islam, Jesus (or Isa; Arabic: عيسى‎ ʿĪsā) is considered to be a Messenger of God and the Masih (Messiah) who was sent to guide the Israelites (banī isrā'īl) and Gentiles with a new scripture, the Injīl.[43] The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam and a requirement of being a Muslim. However, Muslims do not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, as they believe God has no equals, but instead as a prophet. The Quran states that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. Muslims believe that Jesus performed all the miracles in the Gospels, but do not believe that Jesus was crucified.

"In the Quran, the second coming of Jesus is heralded in Az-Zukhruf (the Quran's 43rd surah or chapter) as a sign of the Day of Judgment.

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. 43:61

"In his famous interpretation of the Quran or Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Azim, Ibn Kathir also uses this verse as proof of Jesus' second coming in the Quran.

"There are also hadiths that clearly foretell of Jesus' future return such as:[46] Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43: Kitab-ul-`Ilm (Book of Knowledge), Hâdith Number 656:

"The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross (idol symbol of Christians), kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

"According to Islamic tradition, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi (lit. 'the rightly guided one'), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Masih ad-Dajjal (literally 'false messiah', synonymous with the Antichrist) and his followers. Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in saffron robes—his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Dajjal. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim (one who submits to God) and one of God's messengers, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist Dajjal, and then everyone from the People of the Book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam. Sahih Muslim, 41:7023

"After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus's prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks.[47] Jesus's rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die, (according to Islam Jesus did not die on the cross but was taken up to heaven and continues to live until his return in the second coming). Muslims will then perform the Salat al-Janazah (funeral prayer) for him and bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming#Traditional_view


Equal time: if Jesus returns, to the satisfaction of Christians, Jews and Muslims, there are going to be a whole bunch of surprised atheists, etc. Dave might go an entire weekend without thinking about trains!

Seventy-one years after statehood, no one is unaware of the faults, and the problems, which persist.

I have no solutions to the Palestinian problem--two different peoples share rights (ancestral rights, and legal rights) to the same land--and the land area is so comparatively small, and the constant military challenges so great (not only from Palestinian sources, but from other world actors), that I have no ideas to offer, nor does anyone else (on either side, so far as I am aware). We Americans have shared the same (or similar) problems, here in what is now the United States of America, since our country's history effectively began: in 1492. We seem equally unable to solve the problems of one land, two different peoples. Current news stories continue to point out the ineffectiveness, and the immorality and inhumanity, of OUR similar problems--and we seem to have no solutions to put into practice, either.

So far as the intra-Jewish ethnic problems of Israel: The long-term solution is being worked out as I type this. Going to the same schools, marrying into the other marital partner's ethnic people, and having bi-ethnic children, who have mixed-ethnic children and grandchildren, is bringing about not only a sociological unity, but a biological unity as well.

By 21st-century standards, it is perceived as a slow process....but it is happening very quickly when compared to most of these accounts in human history on this planet.

Every year, more and more "lost Jews" of all of the world's racial stocks, and a very big share of the world's ethnic groups, are being brought "home"--to Israel--and this will continue. It will take a century, maybe a couple of centuries, but at some fairly near to us time, the "ethnic" problems in Israel will disappear into the details of every Israeli's genealogical records.

Kulanu ("All of Us") works throughout every year to bring the lost and forgotten Jews, whatever their race or ethnicity, and wherever they exist on this planet, "back home," to Israel (assuming that this is their desire).

https://kulanu.org/

A few generations from now, the present ethnic problems will be the same as the stories I was told in my family, of when my maternal ancestors owned slaves, and the stories of what it was like to lose EVERYTHING in the stock market crash, and then try to survive throughout the Great Depression.

Other countries have similar stories unfolding now (think of the Yazidi people in the Middle East, or the Uighurs in Asia, or the Dalits/"Untouchables" in India)--and I bet that Israel will achieve racial and ethnic parity in Israel at a time significantly before any of these other world examples are able to achieve the same thing.

Don't be misled by the waystation, because the destination is in view, and Jews all over the planet (no matter "who" they are, or where they live, or what their legal nationality might be) are actively, in process, working towards it.

Again: this does not solve the Palestinian situation. Do you have any ideas which might be useful? If so, there are Jews and non-Jews worldwide who would be deeply interested in hearing what you might be able to positively contribute to the solution of this problem.

My own perceived "solution" is the same as in the racial/ethnic problem: over a handful of generations, intermarriage can achieve what human intelligence is seemingly incapable of achieving--and this has been true throughout much of human history.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 04:08PM by Tevai.

Would you consider it a success if the intra-communal problems among Israeli Jews were solved but those between Jews and Palestinian Arabs were not?

Would you be comfortable if a harmonious Israeli polity functioned as a minority government over a much larger, and still disenfranchised, Arab majority?

Those are questions that tend to get overlooked when people focus too narrowly on Jewish identity and Jewish problems.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you consider it a success if the
> intra-communal problems among Israeli Jews were
> solved but those between Jews and Palestinian
> Arabs were not?

No. From a national security perspective especially, the central problem which must be addressed, and somehow solved (in some way acceptable to all parties) is the problem that two different peoples have legal claim to the same land (not just within the broad national borders of Israel, but in many specific areas, down to specific lot areas of residential real estate). One [given] piece of real estate: two different legal owners.


> Would you be comfortable if a harmonious Israeli
> polity functioned as a minority government over a
> much larger, and still disenfranchised, Arab
> majority?

No. One person, one vote.


> Those are questions that tend to get overlooked
> when people focus too narrowly on Jewish identity
> and Jewish problems.

My sense is that this is more often true of non-Jews than it is true of Jews. Jews overall tend to understand the complexities of the problem much better than do [Christian, for example] non-Jews.

Plus: Jews and Palestinians are both Semitic peoples, with a common ancient history, and there is a kind of "in the bone," felt commonality which exists--even in those Jews who are not Semitic by birth.

This can be really obvious, in the USA for example, when one people is targeted by terrorists (either lone wolf terrorists, or organized terrorists of some kind), and the other people quickly steps in to do guard duty, clean-up, human aid, etc.

One of the thing that strikes me about some young Israelis is how un-Jewish they are (note - not Gentile!).

Sure, they have Jewish ancestry and speak Hebrew, but some of them seem to be more Israeli than Judeo-Israeli. I don't just mean the Russians and people from ex-Soviet countries who seem to be barely Jewish when they enter the country, but some of those Israelis born and bred there. Like most of global youth, many young Sabras seem to be enmeshed in a fairly bland culture of soccer, manufactured pop, junk food and bad television. And now social media and smart phones.

This really struck me when I visited Yad Vashem holocaust museum some years ago. All the foreigners, me included, were pretty horrified by it (although there was some questionable anti-Arab content in the museum)... Yet there was a party of Israeli school children in there laughing and goofing around (not at the exhibits but just being kids). It was a bit of an eye opener. I think they just saw it as another boring school assignment.

Lot's Wife writes - "Jews of a different race"

No additional comment needed.

agitprop

I submit that Jordan's existence here is to create and promote turmoil.

Psychologically he has to assert his relevance somehow. He's Badass Adam with pretenses, McDonkie with a Canadian passport.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> agitprop

You did that fine by yourselves when I was away recently. You can also see that in some of the grandiose statements your companion makes above, and an attempt by her to take this thread into Intifada territory.

On the other hand, the scatological responses that I elicit often appear immediately after I point out a glaring contradiction in Mrs Lot's thinking as I did just now.

You assume I am a bully. Well, it takes one to know one. If you want certai rules applied to me, then you need those self-same rules applied to you. I don't think you would enjoy the consequences

Thank you for your response.

I will spank me; you can continue to spank yourself.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you for your response.
>
> I will spank me; you can continue to spank
> yourself.

Well, that was weird...