“We are asked by science to believe that the entire universe sprang from nothingness, and at a single point and for no discernible reason. This notion is the limit case for credulity. In other words, if you can believe this, you can believe anything.” Terence McKenna

https://highexistence.com/terence-mckenna-quotes/

Interesting quote I heard on a recent Podcast, with Joe Rogan, discussing Piers Morgan's argument for believing in a higher intelligence, "An atheist can never say what there was before the big bang. They can just say it sprang from nothing, but they can't say what that 'nothing' is. No human brain can explain it in my opinion, which is why I believe there is something superior to the human brain."

Rogan and his guest agreed with that statement, here,

https://youtu.be/k-5KPnEUyq0

My understanding of current cosmological theory is that the singularity existed before the big bang.
And everything come from the singularity, which is not nothing, it's everything, compressed into something smaller than an electron.
The singularity still exists in the black hole at the center of every galaxy.
The theory presented by Kip Thorne in the movie, Interstellar, is that a 4 Dimensional Universe exists inside of the black hole and this 3 Dimensional Universe is a projection of that 4 Dimensional Universe.

https://ryancrossthescienceboss.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/physicist-kip-thorne-science-advisor-for-interstellar-discusses-new-film/

If that's the case, then perhaps we had it all backwards all along and the Big Bang isn't something that only happened 13.8 Billion years ago, it's something that happens all the time, at the center of every galaxy, which flows out of the black hole as Hawking Radiation (Spiral Plasma Jets) which is energy slowed down long enough to matter on the accretion disk we find around every black hole, including our own, the Milky Way.

Our mistake is we think we know nothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 03:56PM by Elder Berry.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> Our mistake is we think we know nothing.

I suspect we know less than we think we do, which is something continually evidenced by the knack of scientific research to cast up surprises.

Terence had a way with words.

The cosmology of the 21st century is shaping up to be way more interesting than that of the 20th. I think the anti-supernatural biases in the sciences are softening up. It’s no longer “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil”. They’re willing to peek.

Conversely, the cosmology of the 19th century is getting more stale by the year. Mormon doctrine no longer sells. It’s good we left when we did. The juice was already squeezed out of that religion.

In another of the multiverse there is a God near Kolob.

Yup. Right next to the monkeys with the typewriters.

Are those Denisovan or Neanderthal monkeys?

No idea.

But where did they get the coconuts, Brave Elder Berry?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 07:16PM by Lot's Wife.

A wise woman once said, "You know nothing John Snow"

>""An atheist can never say what there was before the big bang."

A theist can never say what there was before god.

The same argument works against believers. The difference is that an atheist is OK with the words, "I don't know, yet" where the theist believes they already have all the answers, "God did it". Meanwhile science marches on and God has fewer and fewer places to hide. What happens when we do have a definitive and answer on what was before the big bang? Where will God hide then? As you note, scientists are working on these questions every day.

Both the quotes are simply arguments from ignorance. Especially since no scientist that I've heard of says that there was "nothing" before the big bang.

Believers from years ago believed that God created lightning. Now we know the mechanics that produce that natural phenomena and no modern believer that I've spoken too believes that God literally throws lightning bolts from the clouds.

Someday, the same may be said of these currently unanswered science questions. Until then, I'm OK with, we don't know yet, we're still looking into it, which doesn't mean that "God did it".

Lawrence Kraus wrote a book by that name, A Universe From Nothing.
https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Universe_from_Nothing.html?id=nfGlsiDGbxkC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button
Based upon a lecture he gave to Atheist Convention,
https://youtu.be/7ImvlS8PLIo

The late Fred Hoyle, who pushed the Steady State theory used to say that one of his objections to the Big Bang Theory was that it sounded too much like religious ideas repackaged.

Fred Hoyle. <snicker>

As a kid, I was taught at school that the Big Bang created everything, while at church I was taught that God created everything.

Both of them had a creating force/entity (big bang or God), but in neither case was I ever directly told that they had no explanation for what created their creating force/entity. They both had proponents that seemed to want to sell them as the "explanation for everything" while they are at best a partial and woefully incomplete explanation.

I wish humans were more comfortable with the phrase "I don't know," and more imaginative about contemplating the many possibilities that could be true. Maybe the truth is something no one has thought of yet.

thought Wrote:
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> I wish humans were more comfortable with the
> phrase "I don't know," and more imaginative about
> contemplating the many possibilities that could be
> true.

I agree. Excellent reply methinks.

I’m surprised Terence McKenna said this. But perhaps I misunderstand him. He’s supporting Christianity by saying that the only sensible belief is that god created the universe? That believing it came from nothing is ridiculous? But the science that explores the Big Bang is interesting which I get is where you’re coming from. I can’t pretend to understand all of it.
What I do know is Christians (and Mormons) use this argument a lot and ignore what physics might have to say. But in doing so they are left with the exact same issue. If god created the universe, then who created god? I’d say this is an even bigger issue to answer. The Morg are no better in saying god was once a man etc etc. Same problem...who created the first ever god then, where did he come from? And they’ve now changed that doctrine, or are at least watering it down and backing away from it. They don’t have an alternative explanation, just as they refuse to comment on evolution. They say they speak for god yet have no answers for the fundamental questions that matter most! Such utter bullshit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

I used to work in computer graphics, which involves the mathematics of mapping a 3D representation of a world onto a 2D computer screen. The math generalizes to 4 dimensions quite easily, though we have no way fully draw four dimensional objects, except as 3D "slices". But then, we can only do 2D slices of three dimensions on a screen.

I don't know if a four or more dimensional explanation is accurate, but it would solve some difficult problems. I'm kind of hoping that turns out to be the case. I'm also kind of hoping that we figure out how to make a 3D universe in a 4D world. Then *We* would be the creators of universes. Wouldn't that be ironic!

Oh you scientists, you get your universe for nothing and your chicks for free. . .

This is the point where God gets slid in like a well lubed d*ldo!

So why do so many fake orgasms?

"If you buy a god from nothing, you'll buy anything" -- DtA

Buying god is bad enough, but it is the accessories, like religion, that are the expensive part. You can't even buy the damn things. It's an eternal rental.

Including the Brooklyn Bridge?

Waterfront property in Arizona?

Well if a few more ice sheets recede, waterfront property in AZ may no longer seem ridiculous.

You might be foolish enough to buy into the Mormon cosmology if they sell it right. And they are trying everything, I see.

We can't know nothing. It literally is impossible to conceive of. So if The Universe came from it, it wouldn't matter - literally.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> We can't know nothing. It literally is impossible
> to conceive of. So if The Universe came from it,
> it wouldn't matter - literally.
Like Lawrence Krauss said, "There is no such thing as nothing. Just because we can't detect it, does not mean it doesn't exist."
Dark Matter/energy is a perfect example.

Chameleon gravity theory would do away with dark matter entirely if its correct.

There is no such thing as nothing so it is about as useful a concept as God is.

It is a gap in our understandings.

Timewave Zero sure didn't pan out.

For all his advocacy of psychedelics, they didn't make him any more enlightened than anybody else.

He definitely had a way with words.

“Timewave Zero sure didn't pan out.”

That we know of. Infinite novelty could have occurred without us knowing it.

Something is different in the post 2012 era. A guy like Donald Trump can become President, for example.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 09:11AM by babyloncansuckit.

Terrence McKenna is a great man. He helped free me.

I'm a never-mo.

I'm also a pretty hardcore fundamentalist Evangelical Christian.

I think the two quotes in the OP, those guys do not know what they are talking about.

Maybe it's because they are guys and NOT A WOMAN!!! ;P

With the Big Bang, what I understand about it is very different than what is normally expressed. Maybe it is I who don't understand, but this is how I understood it many years ago when I was in school.

It is said it was all very small, but that's only to help people understand.

Prior to the Big Bang Time and space as we know and understand it did NOT exist. There was no time. There was no space. There was no 3rd dimension. There was no 4th dimension. There was no 2nd dimension. There wasn't even a 1st dimension. The closest one could say would be a 0 dimension, but it would be more parallel to NO dimensions existing.

Thus, one could just as easily say it was infinitely large, as saying it was infinitely small. Most people would have bigger questions and problems if they claimed it was infinitely large rather than infinitely small.

In truth, it was neither as size did NOT exist.

After the big Bang the laws of our universe start to come into existence and TIME and SPACE start to occur. It's not that everything was smaller or more compact, simply that those measurements didn't exist before the big bang, those laws were non-existent.

So...what came before the Big Bang?

That's up to many various debates. I favor the idea that it is a continuous cycle. The universe eventually falls in on itself back into a singularity where the laws of our universe no longer exist anymore. Than another Big Bang occurs and this continues for eternity upon eternity.

What causes the Big Bang?

I don't know, but some speculate that there is an inherent imbalance in the universe between matter and anti-matter. It is this imbalance that causes the contractions and expansions and the cycle to continue.

How do I reconcile this with my Christian Belief?

If we look at the original Bible, those things that say Days...simply mean periods. Overall, we have NO idea HOW the earth was created except for some short excerpts in the Bible. To extrapolate how the universe was created from that would be like taking the first third of the first chapter of a physics book and trying to explain how the universe was created from that. I have no problem with science and my beliefs...at least right now.

What do you call “nothing”? It matters. Does nothing include waive functions? Does nothing include “empty space”? What, exactly, is nothing here?

Enquiring mounds want to know.

HH =)

> Does nothing include waive functions?


Are waive functions naive?

A few decades ago I was in the hospital with something that came with a high fever, 104-105.

I was delusional and just wanted to sleep. Some minister came in and proclaimed, "What if creationism just happened, question closed."

In a moment of clarity, I asked if you believe in evolution and it was proved it was actually creationism or visa-versa, how will it change the way you live your life? To me it doesn't matter.

If someone proves one way or another about how the universe started and where it came from, it doesn't matter and you'll live your life like you have been living it. It doesn't matter.