More fruits of religion ...
===============================




"LGBT groups and the Anti-Defamation League have roundly condemned the Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem who said in a sermon last week that gay people cannot be religious Jews and that homosexuality is ‘a wild lust that needs to be overcome.’"

Hmm, what am I supposed to do with this information?

Don't invite him to ride in a Pride Parade?

I wonder if he considers homosexual Jews to be apostates, and tells their kids they need to wait until they are 18 for their Bar Mitzvah.

Do rabbis conduct 'worthiness' interviews with perspective bar & bat mitzvah candidates?

Are there 'unholy' practices that would prohibit being bar/bat mitzvahed? As in, "No bar mitzvah for you!"

There's a distinction between becoming a Bar/Bat Mitzvah and the ceremony which the term commonly evokes. Ceremony or no, one becomes a 'child of the commandment' (rough translation) when one reaches that age around 13.
Different congregations have different rules about for whom they will perform the ceremony; when I was a tutor for these kids I remember that congregation had rules about how much education the kids had. Typically the ceremony includes the kid chanting from the Torah and largely leading the worship service, so some skills are needed.
A convert at 26, I had the honor to be called to the Torah for the first time (which is the highlight of the ceremony) about six months later.

touchstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A convert at 26, I had the honor to be called to
> the Torah for the first time (which is the
> highlight of the ceremony) about six months later.

Mazel v'Bracha! ["Congratulations and Blessings!"]

Over thirty years ago, when I was a member of the Synagogue for the Performing Arts, our rabbi announced, at a Friday night service, that anyone who had never had a "formal" Bar or Bat Mitzvah, and who wanted to do this, was welcome to join a new group he was forming which would culminate in a group Bar and Bat Mitzvah. Anyone who was interested was to show up at a particular date and time, at a particular place. (Our shul did not have a permanent building; we rented premises which belonged to other entities, such as the theatre at the Veteran's Administration--which meant our congregation benefited from DRASTICALLY reduced membership fees, compared to congregations which had their own buildings).

I--along with about fifteen other women, showed up for our first meeting. To me, this was something I hadn't even dreamed possible! [Men were absolutely welcome in our class, but none showed up.]

As I remember, we met once a week, for about three hours at a time. The date of our future, shared, Bat Mitzvah was announced at the first meeting, and we had to learn everything we needed to learn in that interim period of time.

We, every single one of us, were DEDICATED. I was the only convert in the class, and none of the other women, for various reasons, had been able to have their Bat Mitzvahs when they became of bat mitzvah age, so this was just as much an opportunity for them as it was for me.

I think all of us began with the minimal ability to read Hebrew phonetically (whether we understood the meaning of what we were reading or not), so we were able to concentrate on the meaning of the Torah ["Bible," in Hebrew] portion we would be chanting (individually, we each had our own, assigned, "portion of the portion") at the ceremony)....and we all had to learn HOW to chant (an ability I have completely forgotten in the years since).

We were all motivated, and every one of us learned how to read from the Torah scroll, and chant the words, like a Hebrew pro.

As the weeks went by, it eventually became time for us to buy our kipah (Jewish "skullcap") and our tallit (Jewish prayer shawl). Going into my local "Jewish store" (bookstore, plus Judaica of all kinds) to buy my kipah and tallit was one of the shining moments of my life. I had been TRYING to get to "this" point ("becoming a Jewish adult") since I was in seventh grade, and here I was--decades later--actually DOING it!

The people I cared about most came to my Bat Mitzvah (including my aunt and my Mom, who flew cross-country to be with me), and I think I can say, on behalf of everyone in my Bat Mitzvah class, that as the ceremony concluded, we (and there were many grandmothers among us) all felt "adult" in ways we had not felt before, and had not previously realized was possible.

Congratulations, touchstone!

I think I have some real understanding of what YOUR accomplishment felt like to you, and I am very proud on your behalf.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2019 09:35PM by Tevai.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Do rabbis conduct 'worthiness' interviews with
> perspective bar & bat mitzvah candidates?

Rabbis commonly already know, as individuals, those who are becoming bar and bat mitzvah (but not always). There might well be one-on-one meetings, but mostly for issues around the ceremony, and also to Jewishly engage the new "adult" Jew in a more mature manner: talks which might include (as examples only) the "meaning of life," or what they want to do with their lives (maybe any problems regarding differences between what the parents or grandparents want their offspring to become, and what that offspring wants for him/herself), likely some mention of a trip to Israel in the near-ish future (and recommendations if they are asked for), likely some recommendations in line with what the bar or bat mitzvah indicates they want to happen in the future (which universities are in consideration, the relative pluses and minuses of a given university vis-à-vis the new Jewish adult's interests, maybe an offer from the rabbi to write a recommendation letter if the rabbi has personal links which might be of assistance, and maybe some discussion of how the new adult could begin, "as" a Jewish adult (no longer a child) in serving the community (either the community of that congregation, or the larger Jewish community in that area, or the community at large they all live in--assisting the homeless, doing community cleanup, assisting in animal shelters, helping out in low income neighborhoods, etc.).

In other words: lots of emphasis on education, usually through the [anticipated] graduate levels....plus community service ("tikkun olam": "repairing the world") of one kind or another....plus any issues the bar or bat mitzvah is personally concerned about: might be Holocaust-related things (especially if they have been reading and discussing the Holocaust in school)....or--if a close relative has died recently (or will be dying soon)--what happens after death....or whatever important ethical issues are going on in the larger world at that time which the bar or bat mitzvah is troubled about....or some problem at home where the rabbi would be a "safe person" to talk to.


> Are there 'unholy' practices that would prohibit
> being bar/bat mitzvahed? As in, "No bar mitzvah
> for you!"

No.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2019 04:31PM by Tevai.

On behalf of my fellow Jews worldwide, I deeply apologize for our Jewish crazies....including this man who is, unfortunately for us (and for everyone, Jewish or not), one of the two Chief Rabbis in Israel. This man does not speak for all Jews, either Israel-wide or worldwide.

Although we Jews tend to be sane more often than not, we also have our family embarrassments, and this man is one of them.

He does not represent us as a people.

I can appreciate your desire to apologize for this Rabbi, but I don't see how you can apologize on behalf of all Jews, the world over!

Is 'absolution' even a Jewish concept? Can a forgiveness be applied to him?

elderolddog Wrote:
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> I can appreciate your desire to apologize for this
> Rabbi, but I don't see how you can apologize on
> behalf of all Jews, the world over!

Apologizing for Jews who, by their own words and actions, bring dishonor (or far worse, including death) on Jews as a "whole," is deeply Jewish. It is, more or less, the foundation of Jewish humor. If you can laugh at the oddities and absurdities, then you take some of the sting out of the offense.

Underneath the surface humor, though, there is an ingrained knowledge and wisdom, among Jews as a whole, that:

"Every bee that brings the honey,
Needs a sting to be complete.
And we all must learn to taste,
the bitter with the sweet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxzR9Z-kG6Q


> Is 'absolution' even a Jewish concept?

I'm on shaky ground here, but I don't think it applies to Judaism. I'm running hypothetical scenarios in my mind, and what I know about "absolution" (in a Christian sense), doesn't seem to exist in Judaism.

There is the Jewish concept of teshuvah ("returning"), but it is not analogous (in any way I am able to evision) to what I know of Christianity (which is: Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, in Catholicism)....or alternatively (in Protestantism): Jesus will take away your sins if you accept him as your Savior.

[If someone Jewish had previously been less observant, or not observant/secular, and then decided to become relatively more observant than they had been previously, they would be called a baal teshuva. Henry Abramson, the history teacher on YouTube, calls himself a baal teshuva, because the woman he met at his place of employment, and who he decided he definitely wanted to marry, wanted to have an observant family, and he agreed to this.]


> Can a forgiveness be applied to him?

This is hard, because two different traditions are being simultaneously mixed-up here. There is a very practical, and long honored (it was written in the 1500s), book on this general subject, titled "Tomer Devorah" ("The Palm Tree of Devorah"), and the guidance given in the book, in this kind of situation, is to find SOMETHING about the person [you need to "forgive"] that is good--and then (because, by Jewish belief, the concept we refer to as God has this goodness as a part of "God's" "nature"] you can "forgive" [in your terms], or "release" [in Jewish terms] the person because of this GOOD part of them, because [the Jewish concept of God] would do the same.

So, for example, if someone had done some kind of harm, if you could figure out that, in "THIS" particular aspect you are able to identify, that person is good, then you could personally [in effect] "release" them on the "bad" parts, because God [means: the concept of God] would take care of any further balancing which needed to be done--your further input of disdain is no longer needed.

I think this is the nearest Jewish concept which might relate to the Christian concept of absolution (but I am not sure; my Christianity is sparse and comes mostly from Unity School of Christianity, which many Christians would not consider "Christian" at all).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 01:37PM by Tevai.

"...homosexuality is ‘a wild lust that needs to be overcome.’"

Sounds like he is projecting his own fears. In the closet much?

Reminds me of the anti-gay Tennessee politician caught using Grinder.

Exactly. The rabbi doth protest too much, methinks.

I'm always amazed at how often it's said that "God" can "cure" homosexuality. If he's so very much against it, why did he create it in the first place?

Well, if you're Mormon, you look at it like a disease in need of a cure, kinda like cancer. A trial to be overcome like every other bad thing in the world that their god created. There's an answer/rationalization for everything in the Mormon bubble world.

That’s why RfM. Mormonism is a huge trial to overcome.

Finally Free! Wrote:
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> I'm always amazed at how often it's said that
> "God" can "cure" homosexuality. If he's so very
> much against it, why did he create it in the first
> place?


Exactly....

I wonder something similar when I get my parents' weekly letter. My mother is fighting terminal cancer, and every week they write about how they are praying for a "tender mercy" from god that the next trial will be the one, the next drug combination will work, etc.

Meanwhile, I'm over here like, "If god exists, wouldn't the most merciful action have been to not give you cancer in the first place?"

"Meanwhile, I'm over here like, "If god exists, wouldn't the most merciful action have been to not give you cancer in the first place?""

This is where the martyr part kicks in. Supposedly you CHOSE to suffer with cancer (or whatever "trial" you have). So, you should just be happy that you will be extra righteous in heaven because you suffered (like Christ) and those around you had the chance to learn how to be compassionate. The more you suffer, the more special you are. Base covered, no problem.

This might be a good place to bring up an observation I had reading the recent threads about everything Jewish.

Many converts to Mormonism tend to be more fervent, especially when they convert as an adult or young adult. They completely buy into the culture and teachings and often become a little fanatical. Sometimes they do chill out over time like other members.

I can't help but see this in our posters who are Jewish converts. They too are relatively zealous. Apologetics, quoting Rabbis for an explanation for world views, and even going to Jewish news sources strikes me the same way a zealous Mormon convert might act viewing the world through a Mormon lens. Mormons are quoting General Authorities, following nonsensical religious rules, filtering their views through Mormon friendly sources, thinking they are the healthiest, smartest, etc.

I don't see Mormons here defending Mormon history and practices at the same level we have Jewish beliefs defended. It's one thing to put things in context as Tevai does, but it's another interesting observation when we see that everything is viewed through the lens of Judaism. To me it is revealing that the zealous converts in Mormonism are that way for the same reason as any other religion.

What makes people have that level of desire to join a religion and immerse themselves in the beliefs? Most people seem to have this need for belonging. What makes a minority of people like me not interested in adapting the lingo, rituals, practices and dogma? I really don't know. I am baffled how a zealous Jewish convert can criticize Mormons at all. There is nothing Mormons do that Jewish or other religions don't do in spades. No one thinks they demonstrate cultish behavior but they see it in other groups.

One good thing I can say about the Jewish community is that they have a lot of atheists and diversity. I believe over time, if they survive, Mormons will too. They are a young religion and will merge and adapt like the others. When the Jewish religion was young, they were crazier than Mormons could ever hope to be. I don't really understand how a nonbeliever is comfortable being complicit in supporting religions that continually spin off fanatics (like this Rabbi) that harm others, but there they are. Obviously I am not a fan of any religion. I do think the Jewish religion gets a pass because even the slightest criticism gets linked to anti-Semitism just like the slightest criticism of Islam gets a label of Islamophobia. Oddly, I'm sympathizing with Christians who get called out all the time when they act persecuted or display their equally nonsensical (and diverse!) beliefs.

I might be the only one who sees our Jewish converts similarly to Mormon converts. It might be cultural Kool-Aid of a different flavor, but an anthropologist from Mars looking in would see this as similar human behavior. Humans arguing about what Kool-Aid is better is one thing, but the result is that it enables and empowers the fanatical views within each group. Humans are strange.

Or, Hasbara.

(Thank you for saying what many fear to say.)

Human Wrote:
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> Or, Hasbara.
>
> (Thank you for saying what many fear to say.)


Ditto.

"I am baffled how a zealous Jewish convert can criticize Mormons at all."

An executive here at my work is an observant Jew who is very proud of his heritage. I've disabused him of the notion that Mormonism is a religion he respects. He has several Mormon friends he highly regards.

He is presently reading a book about my great great great grandfather Brigham Young. We've talk about why Young did what he did and his roots and how they affect his later life. We've also discussed Joseph Smith.

The poor man has had his illusion of Mormonism shattered.

But about your statement. I know he isn't a convert but he can see how Mormonism's underbelly and history were there but never shown or spoken about. He speaks freely of his Judaism and is baffled by the secrets of Mormon history. And yet he doesn't criticize Mormonism. He sees that it isn't true yet would never point that out to his Mormon friends.

So, I agree that zealousness of conversion is what is at play in what looks like hypocrisy.

There is a lot of wisdom in this post, Dagny. I disagree on parts, like the assertion that early Judaism was crazier than Mormonism, but the underlying notion that religion should be viewed in functional terms, psychological terms, is a profound one.

Yes, we've seen, up close and personal, that religion has the capacity to create dysfunctional, psychologically damaged zealots.

If you're referring to me as a Jewish convert, because aside of Tevai I'm the only other Jewish poster on this board that I know of unless you know of others I don't.

I am not a convert, unlike Tevai is.

And I don't quote Rabbis for their fanaticism or religious zealotry. That would be Dave the Atheist doing that, as this is his thread. From Judaism is where I find a wellspring of wisdom not found anywhere close in Mormonism. It is there I find reasoning and logic to life's questions that I can apply to discussions we have here, similar to how Tevai may share her Jewish views and wisdom, but we are different people on different planes of being and life backgrounds of experience.

I was born Jewish. Not a convert. That I share is no different than your sharing your views on life and experiences. You believe you're right at the expense of others. Does that make you a zealot? You disagree with me on my views of God but that doesn't make you correct or me wrong.

I see fanatical atheists every bit as zealous in their efforts to attack believers in their beliefs they accuse of being zealots. It seems overly lopsided and one-way in those efforts. Because believers are not attacking the atheists beliefs. I know I for one do not do this. Yet I've been attacked countless times for having mine.

I see both sides on RfM. Fanatical and angry atheists set out to right the wrongs of believers whether as ex-Mormon, Jewish, Christian or any other sect. Believers are welcome to share here the same as non-believers. That doesn't make me zealous anymore than it makes you a fanatical atheist.

You share why you're not a believer. I share why I still am a believer post-Mormon. That I'm Jewish is part of that equation. It has helped provide me with a spiritual net and an identity to replace the Mormon one I grew up with and was raised in. But I was born a Jew. I didn't need to convert because I was always Jewish. God provided me with an escape hatch before I knew I needed one. Yes, that God. The same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is my God too. That does not make me zealous any more than you are a diehard atheist. We can agree to disagree.

Do I agree with the Sephardic rabbi of Israel? No I don't. Because I live here among Americans in a land where homosexuality is prevalent and accepted, and legalized. Where if one of my children were gay I would fully accept him or her unconditionally. I was raised to be homophobic growing up in the Morridor of Idaho and Utah. It has taken me a lifetime to undo that learning. But having lived in New York for the past 30+ years, and raising a family where tolerance and diversity was taught from early education on, I have unlearned the idea that it's a sin. My synagogue takes in homosexuals. They are welcome here. They are also welcome in Israel, and so are homosexual marriages.

The Sephardic rabbi's views are akin to the conservative and evangelical views of the religious right in our country. Including the Mormon stance on homosexuality it has taken historically. I see it as no different. There are different sects of Judaism in Israel like there are differing denominations of religion in America. His swings on the more ultra Orthodox side.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 07:07AM by Amyjo.

OK, I'm not using the word "convert" using a Jewish lens.

I mean after all your religion hopping, you started following the Jewish faith in earnest. The magic drop of maternal Jewish blood is a Jewish thing not necessarily related to dedication to the practice of the faith. (I could have Jewish blood too somewhere through my mother and I could not care less).

I intended the word convert to be meant as to change religious beliefs, but I stand corrected if you define the word differently.

Still, my point is that many (most!) Mormons are not as into their religion as much as you appear to be, so it comes off as strange to criticize Mormons.

dagny Wrote:
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> OK, I'm not using the word "convert" using a
> Jewish lens.
>
> I mean after all your religion hopping, you
> started following the Jewish faith in earnest. The
> magic drop of maternal Jewish blood is a Jewish
> thing not necessarily related to dedication to the
> practice of the faith. (I could have Jewish blood
> too somewhere through my mother and I could not
> care less).

I have every right to be whatever I choose to be. Nor have I religious "hopped" as you call it. I didn't check my faith at the door when I dumped Mormonism. It took me time to find a religion that matches my common core values. I wasn't going to settle for something less than that. Or for nothing at all, like many ex-Mormons do when they become agnostic or atheist after deciding Mormonism is not for them.

>
> I intended the word convert to be meant as to
> change religious beliefs, but I stand corrected if
> you define the word differently.

Someone who is born Jewish has no need to convert to it. That is my situation. I didn't need to change anything. I was always a Jew. I just had to learn it for myself. There is no conversion process needed. I'm as much Jewish now as I was before I began attending. The only change is my awareness of my Jewishness and that I'm learning as I go. Conversion means to change one's religious faith or beliefs. I didn't need to change a thing since I've always been Jewish. I had to find it for myself, with God's help.

>
> Still, my point is that many (most!) Mormons are
> not as into their religion as much as you appear
> to be, so it comes off as strange to criticize
> Mormons.

After the damage Mormonism has caused to my immediate family, it wouldn't come as such a surprise to you. But then you haven't walked in my moccasins, have you? RfM is the place to criticize Mormonism, is it not? That is why I am here, and why I vent because of the damage Mormonism has done to my family.

That is institutionalized, generational damage I'm talking about and abuse the Mormon church has inflicted on us and some of it is still ongoing. The Mormon church is an evil cult. Or the abuse would not have occurred and continued the way it has and does. That is why I criticize TSCC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 01:52PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo, you should get bat mitzvahed and invite us all to the 'after-bat-mitzvah' party! Nu?


"It's never too late to have a bar or bat mitzvah. Whether you are sixteen or sixty, if you want a bar/bat mitzvah, you should have one. Many congregations have created adult bar/bat mitzvah programs for individual or group instruction. As a result, rabbis throughout North America have reported officiating at bar/bat mitzvah services for members well into their eighties. If you did not celebrate becoming a bar/bat mitzvah, speak to your rabbi. It can be one of the most fulfilling experiences of your adult life."

--Abraham Lincoln, as reported by the internet

Amyjo,unlike a few atheists you have never, to my knowledge, told others what to believe or mocked their beliefs. Although I don't always agree with you, I enjoy your posts on Judaism. Tevai's too. Those who don't can easily ignore them.

I completed my conversion to Judaism in 1993. I'm 52, so now I can say I've been a Jew for half my life. My religious life over the past quarter-century has included the zeal of the convert and stretches of barely-involved. Some observations come to mind:

Judaism has a diverse spectrum of belief and practice.
Religion does not have a monopoly on homophobia. Or stupid.
Reform Judaism started ordaining gay rabbis in the 1980's-- clearly ahead of the curve for gay acceptance compared to general American culture.
Judaism emphasizes practice over belief.
Judaism emphasizes questions over answers.
I went to a same-sex marriage in a Conservative congregation ten years ago. The rabbi and his husband the cantor now have a son and live in Chicago.
Tevai has often really impressed me with the thoughtfulness of her posts.

I'm tempted to start a longer, meandering essay about how I view ethical development as a collective enterprise done in conversation which includes the dead, from Aristotle to Kierkegaard and beyond. But I'll hold off for now.

That'd mean atheists are gay.
Or God is powerless or
God is a delusion of small minded patriarchal Monotheist religions.

Or god is like Einstein described, the immutable laws that govern the universe.
But the law he is talking about is Leviticus, where his psychotic God says to kill homosexuals by stoning. Right after He commands Jews to kill their kids for cursing.
Thats not logical thatz insane.
The opposite of god, aka, logic, aka math.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 09:52PM by schrodingerscat.

There was a mixup in Moses’ meds.

The rabbi is wild.

Thankfully, my boyfriend is not a Jewish zealot.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 07:05AM by Amyjo.

After all, I let him go once. Not going to do that again. I learned. Hell, I'd convert if he asked me to if it would make him happy.

He has a different take on religion than a lot of people do. We talk about Judaism a lot. I went to his son's wedding, which I thought was a wonderful experience. The rabbi's advice was perfect and not too long and BORING.

He knows I'm done with religion. He has a good idea how deeply scarred I am from my mormon past as he knew me when I was devout. It is interesting that he said he'd convert for me, but I knew he'd never believe it. I never really believed anyone would convert to mormonism, though I worried about what would happen to them in the next life.

Just in case, what I meant by "been there, heard that." Hell, how many times have I heard that God can cure homosexuality. I, myself, wrote down in my "gay" journal (I didn't want anyone to read it, but I needed to write things down to sort them out) that I knew he couldn't become straight like they told me he HAD TO. I knew that right off the bat--just practicality. It didn't make sense to me what they were trying to tell me, but how could I possibly be smarter than the leaders?

Lately, I've been really pissed at the mess it made of the lives of my children especially in terms of how they've been damaged emotionally by what happened--and how life could have been different. I'll get through it yet again. Just every now and then it really pisses me off.

I'll have to tell my boyfriend about what this rabbi said.

Like Pinchas? ( Zealous) .

Only God can cure homosexuality, yet he doesn't. Hmmmmmm...

What does the Mormon church currently say about what causes homosexuality? I wonder if they have the audacity to claim this is a sin and simultaneously decline to give a reason for it? I can’t remember ever seeing an explanation from the Corporation on this. I had a real problem with that. If being actively gay is a sin, then why the hell did god create (or allow) people to be born gay. I’m guessing the Morg says people AREN’T born gay, it’s the result of sin or an earlier bad choice that made them that way -? I’d have to do a lot of searching to find the answer to this as I’ve been out for ten years and can’t remember, so if anyone knows I’d be grateful to hear it.
This is personally one of my biggest reasons for being against the Mormon religion. And I’ve noticed they give less and less explanations for things too. And religion in general for the same reason. Of course they shoot themselves in the foot with comments and explanations like this because they’re so obviously hideous and distasteful. Of course, no religious person can give a reason for being gay that isn’t hideous and that makes sense from a religious standpoint.
Because the ONLY explanation for homosexuality is that it’s completely fine and people are just born either gay or straight. I get so f****** angry at this other crap. I’m not gay but I have friends that are. I remember one guy in the church who had to live the rest of his life being alone and celibate. That’s what he was told he had to do. And my family wonder why I hate this cult. Seriously - how can they?

I think the current position is something like BEING gay isn't a sin but ACTING gay is. Celibate gayness, okay, sexually active gayness, not okay.

What's the point of being Gay if you can't be Happy?

because God didn't. They say. They told me that they had to change to straight back in 1983, that they were damned for even saying they are gay.

They haven't moved very far from that teaching except now you can say you are gay, but you can't have a relationship.

They told me not to talk to my parents about it. When my dad figured out my husband was gay, he told me "they are born that way." My dad could be a bigot, but he had studied biology. IF I had talked to my dad back in 1983, I would have had an answer.

They told me that they just had sex with the wrong gender first. They gave all kinds of reasons like something about the mother and something about the father. I thought for sure if I went to them, they'd give me the answers I needed after all, I had been taught they had all the answers.

The prevailing attitude was--but they never came right out and said it--that they, themselves, loved sex with women and they had to control themselves, and if gays just had sex with a woman ONCE, they'd change and be just like them. I think they are also envious of how much sex gays can have and not get someone pregnant. Not going to let anyone have a lot of sex now, are we?

Thanks for your reply and for clearing this up for me, I had really wondered how they actually thought about homosexuality. If it wasn’t so horribly insidious and damaging it would be funny for how ridiculous this is. Actually I am just so horrified.

is with dark humor. My brother lived with us for a while when my ex had broken up with the guy he left us for and would come out here to talk to us about his dates. My kids would give him "funny" advice about not having sex on the first date, etc., and my brother couldn't believe they could so easily talk to him about it. They'd all joke about it together.

We could never have survived mentally as it is so INSANE the way they handle it, the way they see it when, in reality, it has a very simple answer. They are born that way.

lj12 Wrote:
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> What does the Mormon church currently say about
> what causes homosexuality?

The current official line--I lifted this directly from the church's "Mormon and Gay" webpage--is: "Feelings of Same-Sex Attraction Are Not a Sin and We Can Choose How to Respond":

"Let us be clear: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including [those with same-sex attraction]" (M. Russell Ballard, Sept. 2015 Ensign)

So--it's okay to BE gay, as long as you never DO anything gay.

However, if you read through that page there is a subtle connotation that homosexuality is akin to alcoholism, in that the church and its members may say one thing about it but they sure as shooting still look down on it and think it's dirty.

Right. Gay members are expected to live life as a wallflower and never dance. Weirdly they are supposed to be thrilled about it.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Weirdly they are
> supposed to be thrilled about it.

Lol. Well put! The Morg is simultaneously stupid and offensive. Look how wonderful our plan of happiness is! You too can be happy if you would just deny who you ARE, yay, praise gawd!