Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
From an NYTimes article today:
Demand for cremation — the disposal of a body using flame or heat — continues to outpace that for traditional burial, says the National Funeral Directors Association’s 2019 report on cremation and burial. The cremation rate surpassed 50 percent in 2016 and continues to increase, the association found. It is expected to rise to 79 percent by 2040.
The burial rate, meanwhile, is projected to drop to just 16 percent over the next two decades, which means that cremation “is no fading trend,” the association concluded.
------------
I imagine Mormons will lag behind on adopting cremation, but they usually seem to catch up with society on trends like this, it just takes them longer (falling birthrate, later marriage being 2 other examples)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2019 03:52PM by Brother Of Jerry.
Demand for cremation — the disposal of a body using flame or heat — continues to outpace that for traditional burial, says the National Funeral Directors Association’s 2019 report on cremation and burial. The cremation rate surpassed 50 percent in 2016 and continues to increase, the association found. It is expected to rise to 79 percent by 2040.
The burial rate, meanwhile, is projected to drop to just 16 percent over the next two decades, which means that cremation “is no fading trend,” the association concluded.
------------
I imagine Mormons will lag behind on adopting cremation, but they usually seem to catch up with society on trends like this, it just takes them longer (falling birthrate, later marriage being 2 other examples)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2019 03:52PM by Brother Of Jerry.
As I have mentioned before, I come from a family and an upbringing which largely prefers cremation.
As much as I love Old West cemeteries (and I do!), I think that burial of intact bodies is no longer defensible from many different perspectives. (There is an exception here for families who really do honestly believe (religiously) that intact bodies are necessary for future resurrection. Despite the fact that this is inherently illogical--since, over time, bodies do not REMAIN "intact" after long-term burial--I think these families have a right to bury if this is their wish.)
We're in the twenty-first century now, and I think that cremation better fits the realities we all must now live with.
The fact that cremation is now more common than burial in the United States fits in with my estimation of "where we, as a nation, are now."
As much as I love Old West cemeteries (and I do!), I think that burial of intact bodies is no longer defensible from many different perspectives. (There is an exception here for families who really do honestly believe (religiously) that intact bodies are necessary for future resurrection. Despite the fact that this is inherently illogical--since, over time, bodies do not REMAIN "intact" after long-term burial--I think these families have a right to bury if this is their wish.)
We're in the twenty-first century now, and I think that cremation better fits the realities we all must now live with.
The fact that cremation is now more common than burial in the United States fits in with my estimation of "where we, as a nation, are now."
Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I have mentioned before, I come from a family
> and an upbringing which largely prefers
> cremation.
It sounds from this that you and your family are not Orthodox Jews, Tevai, but are probably Conservative or Reformed.
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I have mentioned before, I come from a family
> and an upbringing which largely prefers
> cremation.
It sounds from this that you and your family are not Orthodox Jews, Tevai, but are probably Conservative or Reformed.
Tevai's the only one in her family that is Jewish. She converted to the faith. I'm pretty sure she isn't Orthodox. If I recall correctly she leans closer to Conservative Judaism.
I was converted by both Conservative and Reconstructionist rabbis, at the University of Judaism (now: American Jewish University), which is a mostly Conservative institution. (The Reconstructionist movement came from Conservative roots, and for practical purposes, both movements are much the same.)
Mostly, in Jewish practice, I tend to "be" Conservative. (This has NOTHING to do with either political "conservatism," or with social "conservatism." In practical terms, it means something like: NOT Reform, and NOT Orthodox--more in the middle of both of those "roads.")
Although my Jewish practice has not changed significantly through the years, my understanding has grown with my own personal growth, and the only effective Jewish "place" for this growth to occur for me now, is what might be called "graduate Orthodox" or "post Orthodox" Judaism.
For the past few decades, there has been an obvious, and increasing, across-the-Jewish-spectrum, growth process of "skipping 'Orthodox'" [Orthodox practice, mostly]....such that a given Jew of Secular Humanist/Reform/Conservative upbringing and practice would (in effect), at a certain point in their Jewish maturation, do an end run AROUND Orthodox practice, as this Jew begins Jewish exploration and learning at significantly higher levels of Jewish thought and understanding than is normative for most Orthodox Jews.
This is where I am right now in my Jewish thinking (mostly initiated by my instinctive understanding that the intellectual "higher" levels of Judaism were saying "the same thing" as the same levels of intellectual Hinduism I grew up with, despite the different "vocabularies," and the dramatically different "visual" appearances of each one).
Not only is this is a practical fact, it now appears there may be historical reasons for this phenomenon: that Judaism (at the highest intellectual levels), and Hinduism (at those same high intellectual levels) seem to be the offspring of a common, or of an extremely intellectually "similar," "ancestor."
On the "ground," it certainly does FEEL this way.
Bottom line: My Jewish practices are most definitely not now, nor have they ever been, Orthodox--while my Jewish intellectual endeavors are now, effectively, post-Orthodox.
And I find myself, inadvertently, part of a rapidly growing cohort of intellectually similar Jews, who are going through the same informal process at this same historical time.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2019 12:29AM by Tevai.
Mostly, in Jewish practice, I tend to "be" Conservative. (This has NOTHING to do with either political "conservatism," or with social "conservatism." In practical terms, it means something like: NOT Reform, and NOT Orthodox--more in the middle of both of those "roads.")
Although my Jewish practice has not changed significantly through the years, my understanding has grown with my own personal growth, and the only effective Jewish "place" for this growth to occur for me now, is what might be called "graduate Orthodox" or "post Orthodox" Judaism.
For the past few decades, there has been an obvious, and increasing, across-the-Jewish-spectrum, growth process of "skipping 'Orthodox'" [Orthodox practice, mostly]....such that a given Jew of Secular Humanist/Reform/Conservative upbringing and practice would (in effect), at a certain point in their Jewish maturation, do an end run AROUND Orthodox practice, as this Jew begins Jewish exploration and learning at significantly higher levels of Jewish thought and understanding than is normative for most Orthodox Jews.
This is where I am right now in my Jewish thinking (mostly initiated by my instinctive understanding that the intellectual "higher" levels of Judaism were saying "the same thing" as the same levels of intellectual Hinduism I grew up with, despite the different "vocabularies," and the dramatically different "visual" appearances of each one).
Not only is this is a practical fact, it now appears there may be historical reasons for this phenomenon: that Judaism (at the highest intellectual levels), and Hinduism (at those same high intellectual levels) seem to be the offspring of a common, or of an extremely intellectually "similar," "ancestor."
On the "ground," it certainly does FEEL this way.
Bottom line: My Jewish practices are most definitely not now, nor have they ever been, Orthodox--while my Jewish intellectual endeavors are now, effectively, post-Orthodox.
And I find myself, inadvertently, part of a rapidly growing cohort of intellectually similar Jews, who are going through the same informal process at this same historical time.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2019 12:29AM by Tevai.
I think the belief in a literal resurrection is on its way out.
babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the belief in a literal resurrection is on
> its way out.
Many of the earliest Christians believed that in their lifetimes, Jesus would return to bring in the Kingdom of God in its fulness. At that time, those human beings who had already died would be resurrected to face judgment. A general resurrection of the dead was thus an essential part of the beliefs of Christianity.
Over time, the idea of the saved soul of the Christian going to heaven immediately upon death to live eternally with God and Jesus became more popular, and among some Christians the idea of resurrection began to be downplayed.
There is a contractor currently working on my house who is a fundamentalist Christian and says he believes every word in the Bible. He is also an advocate of cremation for himself. I asked him how his advocacy of cremation fits in with the resurrection of the dead at the end of time. That idea of resurrection seemed almost incomprehensible to him -- completely off his map. He said that when a saved Christian dies, his or her soul goes immediately to heaven for all eternity and there is no more need for a body. So from his point of view, it doesn't matter what happens to the body -- it will never be needed again or have any significance.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the belief in a literal resurrection is on
> its way out.
Many of the earliest Christians believed that in their lifetimes, Jesus would return to bring in the Kingdom of God in its fulness. At that time, those human beings who had already died would be resurrected to face judgment. A general resurrection of the dead was thus an essential part of the beliefs of Christianity.
Over time, the idea of the saved soul of the Christian going to heaven immediately upon death to live eternally with God and Jesus became more popular, and among some Christians the idea of resurrection began to be downplayed.
There is a contractor currently working on my house who is a fundamentalist Christian and says he believes every word in the Bible. He is also an advocate of cremation for himself. I asked him how his advocacy of cremation fits in with the resurrection of the dead at the end of time. That idea of resurrection seemed almost incomprehensible to him -- completely off his map. He said that when a saved Christian dies, his or her soul goes immediately to heaven for all eternity and there is no more need for a body. So from his point of view, it doesn't matter what happens to the body -- it will never be needed again or have any significance.
I decided on cremation when Dad passed and I got a glimpse of the mortuary’s price list:
Coffins started at $6500. Cremation was all in for $650.
Coffins started at $6500. Cremation was all in for $650.
Composting is the future!
No heating required!
Hopefully the time will come when one can brag about which conservation institute accepted one's dear departed,
Or
How much one got for Aunt Selma's remains. It sounded like a lot but on a per pound basis, she was run of the mill...
No heating required!
Hopefully the time will come when one can brag about which conservation institute accepted one's dear departed,
Or
How much one got for Aunt Selma's remains. It sounded like a lot but on a per pound basis, she was run of the mill...
Never deprive a worm of a free lunch.
quite a while ago, the ChurchCo line for winking at Asian (Japanese) cremations was that 'they don't have enough land for burials'...
Well, that's gone now too!
Well, that's gone now too!
I remember that caveat making cremation ok for Asian countries. Growing up it was such a no-no to even think about it or talk about it. And whether or not they want to admit it, we were taught that our actual Earthly body would be our resurrected body. I grew up during Vietnam and wondered if God had to send angels on the hunt for severed limbs.
I’ve now lived so long surrounded by people who are religious skeptics, that I rarely go to a memorial service that isn’t a cremation and the idea of embalmed goo-filled, wax-covered corpses, gives me the willies.
I’ve now lived so long surrounded by people who are religious skeptics, that I rarely go to a memorial service that isn’t a cremation and the idea of embalmed goo-filled, wax-covered corpses, gives me the willies.
I was surprised that my (lapsed) Catholic mother opted for cremation. Traditionally, Catholics preferred to be buried intact. But we did already have a gravesite for her next to my dad. You can have a body cremated *and* bury the cremains as well. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that cremation has become so popular. A lot of people do not have the money for a traditional burial. Or they want to pass on as much money as possible to their family members.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that cremation has become so popular. A lot of people do not have the money for a traditional burial. Or they want to pass on as much money as possible to their family members.
I think it comes down to the cost factor. It's too expensive for many families to be able to afford a decent burial with funeral.
A friend and colleague who died in 2011 told me her mother, who was a devout Catholic, was cremated when she died because her children simply couldn't afford the burial costs. Her mom died believing she was going to have a full burial w/funeral service. They weren't able to do that.
Then when my friend died after a brief bout with pancreatic cancer, she too was cremated rather than have a burial. She did have a simple Catholic service though at the Catholic church where she grew up. It was the cost factor that kept them from having a traditional burial.
I'm still opting for a burial, but will try and pre-pay and pre-plan for it so there isn't any second guessing after I die. I don't want to leave that to chance. If I check out before I get around to doing that my wishes will likely not happen. My burial plot's on the other side of the country. I'll need to be transported there. Get the stone in place. It's a lot to take care of just to die. Plus, the coffin. Ugh. I don't care about the service. Sure don't want a Mormon one. And NO funeral potatoes! But I will be buried in a mostly Mormon cemetery near Mormon relatives, including my siblings. We can nosh in the afterlife. :)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2019 07:38PM by Amyjo.
A friend and colleague who died in 2011 told me her mother, who was a devout Catholic, was cremated when she died because her children simply couldn't afford the burial costs. Her mom died believing she was going to have a full burial w/funeral service. They weren't able to do that.
Then when my friend died after a brief bout with pancreatic cancer, she too was cremated rather than have a burial. She did have a simple Catholic service though at the Catholic church where she grew up. It was the cost factor that kept them from having a traditional burial.
I'm still opting for a burial, but will try and pre-pay and pre-plan for it so there isn't any second guessing after I die. I don't want to leave that to chance. If I check out before I get around to doing that my wishes will likely not happen. My burial plot's on the other side of the country. I'll need to be transported there. Get the stone in place. It's a lot to take care of just to die. Plus, the coffin. Ugh. I don't care about the service. Sure don't want a Mormon one. And NO funeral potatoes! But I will be buried in a mostly Mormon cemetery near Mormon relatives, including my siblings. We can nosh in the afterlife. :)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2019 07:38PM by Amyjo.
Imagine how embarrassed all those people are going to feel on the morning of the First Resurrection.
"But I've got nothing to wear!"
"But I've got nothing to wear!"
I plan on donating my body to a Body Farm. I'm not sure which one yet, but there aren't many. Grand Mesa State in Grand Junction, CO. has been looking into starting one, so that would be my first choice if it exists at the time.
My wife say's taking my body out into the woods for the critters would get her into too much trouble.
My wife say's taking my body out into the woods for the critters would get her into too much trouble.
Cremation is the cheaper option for many people. However, it also uses a lot of energy and produces greenhouse gases.
Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cremation is the cheaper option for many people.
> However, it also uses a lot of energy and produces
> greenhouse gases.
Cremation is bad for the environment. Green or Natural burial is the practice that is most environmentally sound. It involves burial of an unembalmed body in a completely biodegradable casket or shroud, with no permanent monuments permitted. A tree will often be planted on top of the grave.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cremation is the cheaper option for many people.
> However, it also uses a lot of energy and produces
> greenhouse gases.
Cremation is bad for the environment. Green or Natural burial is the practice that is most environmentally sound. It involves burial of an unembalmed body in a completely biodegradable casket or shroud, with no permanent monuments permitted. A tree will often be planted on top of the grave.
The idea of having a tree planted on my grave is appealing to me. I knew two people who had that done for them.
When I was a lot younger, the complaint was that graves were taking up too much land (a green argument I suppose), but now there are all the environmental arguments against that.
There is talk of "liquid cremation" (a misnomer!) which essentially dissolves a body into sludge. It's very unappealing to me TBH, and I think there are concerns there too, because strongly corrosive chemicals are bad for the environment if they get out.
When I was a lot younger, the complaint was that graves were taking up too much land (a green argument I suppose), but now there are all the environmental arguments against that.
There is talk of "liquid cremation" (a misnomer!) which essentially dissolves a body into sludge. It's very unappealing to me TBH, and I think there are concerns there too, because strongly corrosive chemicals are bad for the environment if they get out.
There's a crematorium in the general area where I live that the neighbors that live closest to it get the odors from it on the upwind when it burns the bodies of the deceased. It has created an environmental health hazard for the residents living around it. They are sick and nauseated from the smells and fumes coming from the oven/s. It's been a controversial issue for several years. The oven is still in business, last check. The funeral home won a five year renewal with the state licensing board to keep on cremating despite the objection of the surrounding neighbors who are getting sick from the fumes.
Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I imagine Mormons will lag behind on adopting
> cremation, but they usually seem to catch up with
> society on trends like this, it just takes them
> longer (falling birthrate, later marriage being 2
> other examples)
I don't see how Mormons could ever legitimately adopt cremation and remain true to the spirit of their theology. As I understand it, Mormon theology teaches that our very purpose for coming to earth is to obtain a material body -- something essential for obtaining ultimate godhood. And that same material body will be resurrected and glorified to live ultimately in one of the three kingdoms. So what a slap in Heavenly Father's face it would be for a Mormon to deliberately destroy his or her body by having it burned up.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I imagine Mormons will lag behind on adopting
> cremation, but they usually seem to catch up with
> society on trends like this, it just takes them
> longer (falling birthrate, later marriage being 2
> other examples)
I don't see how Mormons could ever legitimately adopt cremation and remain true to the spirit of their theology. As I understand it, Mormon theology teaches that our very purpose for coming to earth is to obtain a material body -- something essential for obtaining ultimate godhood. And that same material body will be resurrected and glorified to live ultimately in one of the three kingdoms. So what a slap in Heavenly Father's face it would be for a Mormon to deliberately destroy his or her body by having it burned up.
Oh goody! I am definitely getting cremated now!
I've been adamant about not getting buried in the silly temple clothes-blue dress and barefooted.
But I've changed my mind. Cremate me, scatter a few ashes in the mountains, and bury the rest in my son's grave.
TBM spouse doesn't believe in cremation. So bring the flames on!
-Burn, baby, burn Dennis
I've been adamant about not getting buried in the silly temple clothes-blue dress and barefooted.
But I've changed my mind. Cremate me, scatter a few ashes in the mountains, and bury the rest in my son's grave.
TBM spouse doesn't believe in cremation. So bring the flames on!
-Burn, baby, burn Dennis
"I don't see how Mormons could ever legitimately adopt cremation and remain true to the spirit of their theology."
Exactly the same way they banned polygamy. Just do it. Officially, they are already OK with cremation, though they discourage it, at least informally, and perhaps even the CHI discourages it. I suppose they even want endowed members to be cremated in their temple getups.
Cremation is common to the point of being de riguer in some other cultures and LDS Inc adopted to that with no problem. If it becomes the overwhelming choice in the US in the future, as seems likely, Mormons will follow along. Their image of calling each other out of the grave in full temple regalia is more than a bit silly. If I were being resurrected, I'd like a nice fresh body with new chemicals, not my old one reinflated.
Exactly the same way they banned polygamy. Just do it. Officially, they are already OK with cremation, though they discourage it, at least informally, and perhaps even the CHI discourages it. I suppose they even want endowed members to be cremated in their temple getups.
Cremation is common to the point of being de riguer in some other cultures and LDS Inc adopted to that with no problem. If it becomes the overwhelming choice in the US in the future, as seems likely, Mormons will follow along. Their image of calling each other out of the grave in full temple regalia is more than a bit silly. If I were being resurrected, I'd like a nice fresh body with new chemicals, not my old one reinflated.
Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I suppose they even want endowed members to be
> cremated in their temple getups.
Freemasons wear white aprons during their rituals, and when one dies he is buried wearing the personal apron he has been given. My impression is that these aprons are considered to be sacred to Masons. So what happens to the apron if a Mason is cremated? Would it be considered improper to burn up the apron along with the body?
It seems like in both the case of Mormons and Freemasons, in a departure from traditional burial practices, you have the problem of what do do with sacred articles of clothing that are supposed to be buried intact with the body.
-------------------------------------------------------
I suppose they even want endowed members to be
> cremated in their temple getups.
Freemasons wear white aprons during their rituals, and when one dies he is buried wearing the personal apron he has been given. My impression is that these aprons are considered to be sacred to Masons. So what happens to the apron if a Mason is cremated? Would it be considered improper to burn up the apron along with the body?
It seems like in both the case of Mormons and Freemasons, in a departure from traditional burial practices, you have the problem of what do do with sacred articles of clothing that are supposed to be buried intact with the body.
My maternal grandfather was a full Mason during his adult life, living in Utah. When he died he was buried with full Masonic rites. He didn't have an apron though. He was buried in a men's suit with tie.
Note: He detested Mormonism though, and may have been partially why Mormons were not allowed to join Masonry in Utah until years after he passed away. The rules were finally softened to allow LDS men to join if they wanted to in the state of Utah. So that was a major change for the Masons after my grandfather died.
The only things I found unusual about grandpa's "burial" was it was above ground in a crypt @ a mausoleum. And my aunt tucked a pack of cigarettes inside his suit jacket with a book of matches. Since his "best friend" from the age of ten on was cigarettes. He was orphaned early and was on his own working on the railroad from the age of ten years old until his retirement. Smoking was also instrumental in contributing to grandpa's death from emphysema. But tell that to my aunt who was also a habitual smoker. (rolls eyes.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2019 11:37PM by Amyjo.
Note: He detested Mormonism though, and may have been partially why Mormons were not allowed to join Masonry in Utah until years after he passed away. The rules were finally softened to allow LDS men to join if they wanted to in the state of Utah. So that was a major change for the Masons after my grandfather died.
The only things I found unusual about grandpa's "burial" was it was above ground in a crypt @ a mausoleum. And my aunt tucked a pack of cigarettes inside his suit jacket with a book of matches. Since his "best friend" from the age of ten on was cigarettes. He was orphaned early and was on his own working on the railroad from the age of ten years old until his retirement. Smoking was also instrumental in contributing to grandpa's death from emphysema. But tell that to my aunt who was also a habitual smoker. (rolls eyes.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2019 11:37PM by Amyjo.
Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Their
> image of calling each other out of the grave in
> full temple regalia is more than a bit silly.
I think Mormonism has been traditionally regarded as a religion that emphasizes the "material" and tangible over the "spiritual." To the extent that Mormonism abandons or waters down such concrete and tangible images such as "calling each other out of the grave in full temple regalia," are they not gradually drifting away from an outlook that has been considered fundamental and defining for their religion?
-------------------------------------------------------
Their
> image of calling each other out of the grave in
> full temple regalia is more than a bit silly.
I think Mormonism has been traditionally regarded as a religion that emphasizes the "material" and tangible over the "spiritual." To the extent that Mormonism abandons or waters down such concrete and tangible images such as "calling each other out of the grave in full temple regalia," are they not gradually drifting away from an outlook that has been considered fundamental and defining for their religion?
I did some poking about. The energy cost of a cremation is reportedly equivalent to 28 gallons of gasoline, give or take. That is not insignificant, but it is about how much gasoline I buy every two to three weeks, so a cremation wouldn't add very much to the total carbon footprint of one's life.
Plus, it also takes energy to dig a grave and fill it back in, and if a dozen or two cars go from a funeral home to a cemetery, that burns gasoline too.
And I would think it takes significant fuel to mine and smelt and form and ship the metal in a typical casket.
All in all, a cremation might still be more energy-efficient than a regular burial. If it does take more energy, I doubt if it is much more. Burials/funerals expend energy too.
As for the "liquid cremation" mentioned up-thread, the article I read referred to it as "alkaline hydrolization". How's that for a name. Sounds like the body is dissolved in lye, which is the most alkaline chemical I know of. While lye (sodium hydroxide) is extremely corrosive, when it is used to dissolve organic material, it gets transformed into different non-corrosive chemicals in the process. Granulated drain cleaners are typically lye. It used to be a primary ingredient in soap, where, once it was converted to soap, it was no longer a corrosive.
In short, I don't think cremation or alkaline hydrolization present particularly difficult environmental challenges.
Plus, it also takes energy to dig a grave and fill it back in, and if a dozen or two cars go from a funeral home to a cemetery, that burns gasoline too.
And I would think it takes significant fuel to mine and smelt and form and ship the metal in a typical casket.
All in all, a cremation might still be more energy-efficient than a regular burial. If it does take more energy, I doubt if it is much more. Burials/funerals expend energy too.
As for the "liquid cremation" mentioned up-thread, the article I read referred to it as "alkaline hydrolization". How's that for a name. Sounds like the body is dissolved in lye, which is the most alkaline chemical I know of. While lye (sodium hydroxide) is extremely corrosive, when it is used to dissolve organic material, it gets transformed into different non-corrosive chemicals in the process. Granulated drain cleaners are typically lye. It used to be a primary ingredient in soap, where, once it was converted to soap, it was no longer a corrosive.
In short, I don't think cremation or alkaline hydrolization present particularly difficult environmental challenges.
Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I would think it takes significant fuel to
> mine and smelt and form and ship the metal in a
> typical casket.
>
Metal caskets or caskets with any metal in them are not permitted to be used in Green or Natural burials. The body is either buried in a biodegradable shroud or in a casket that is completely biodegradable.
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I would think it takes significant fuel to
> mine and smelt and form and ship the metal in a
> typical casket.
>
Metal caskets or caskets with any metal in them are not permitted to be used in Green or Natural burials. The body is either buried in a biodegradable shroud or in a casket that is completely biodegradable.
which is odd. I buried my parents in the ground. I am glad I saw them before they were buried as I knew they were dead.
I have 4 dogs buried in my back yard. I couldn't bring myself to cremate them, and so I also find it difficult to ever leave this house. I've often thought the ideal thing would be to be cremated and have my ashes spread over my dogs or buried by them. I have already decided there will be no obituary and no funeral.
My boyfriend's dad was cremated and it sure sounded like a lot of money from what he told me. His mother will be cremated, too, and he has been told where to spread the ashes.
As morbid as it might sound, I find going to my parents' grave and decorating it helps me.
Oh, my TBM sister told me quite a few years ago that she is going to be cremated and placed in her husband's coffin. I'm not quite sure how they are going to manage this. With his family history, I'd think he would die first, but who knows.
I have 4 dogs buried in my back yard. I couldn't bring myself to cremate them, and so I also find it difficult to ever leave this house. I've often thought the ideal thing would be to be cremated and have my ashes spread over my dogs or buried by them. I have already decided there will be no obituary and no funeral.
My boyfriend's dad was cremated and it sure sounded like a lot of money from what he told me. His mother will be cremated, too, and he has been told where to spread the ashes.
As morbid as it might sound, I find going to my parents' grave and decorating it helps me.
Oh, my TBM sister told me quite a few years ago that she is going to be cremated and placed in her husband's coffin. I'm not quite sure how they are going to manage this. With his family history, I'd think he would die first, but who knows.
cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My boyfriend's dad was cremated and it sure
> sounded like a lot of money from what he told me.
Cremation CAN cost a lot of money if the person in charge goes through a mortuary/"funeral home."
If that person in charge were to do the necessary paperwork themselves (which requires some schlepping of papers from one person to another person for signatures, etc.), and did the transporting of the body to the crematory themselves [MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE REQUIRED PAPERWORK WITH YOU!!--this is in case you might be pulled over by police officers], the entire process can be done for what amounts to a fraction of the "otherwise" cost.
See: CARING FOR THE DEAD, a "how to" guide by Lisa Carlson (this title is a more recent edition of her original title: CARING FOR YOUR OWN DEAD).
Laws vary, so you need to do some calling around to verify what laws would apply to you in your state. (Lisa Carlson's book will be of great help and guidance in this particular subject, keeping in mind that in some states, laws may further vary by the specific county the death takes place in (or possibly, which county the crematory is located in).
Working backwards in the process may be of help in states other than California (the state where my experience has been). If you decide to work backwards: call your choices of your local crematories first, tell them you are going to be handling the arrangements yourself, and ask what their costs are, and what their particular requirements are (the crematory we used required a human-sized, cardboard container for the body to be delivered in, which is easily available from most any local funeral home, though funeral homes may charge you for this; the one we obtained from a local funeral home was given to us without any cost at all), and any advice they might have for you--advice which you have the option of adopting, or rejecting.
If the death in anticipated, you need to go to your local County offices and get a blank copy of their Death Certificate form, which you will complete. Ask if there are any requirements for HOW the certificate must be completed: for example: using a typewriter (I don't know how you would do this on a computer). Be aware that ANY mistake made on the Death Certificate requires that you obtain a completely new blank certificate, because no "white outs," erasures, or writeovers are permitted. (My father's doctor accidentally ticked a wrong box on my first attempt, and I had to return the unacceptable certificate to the Vital Records department, obtain a new blank copy, and start all over again.) At the beginning of this process, I had originally asked for a couple of blanks just in case, but was told this was not possible--only one blank certificate could be "out there," for a particular decedent, at any one time.
I don't know if this is a general law or not, but in my experience in California this is essential: the very first thing, after you know that death has occurred (and possibly after a hospice nurse has verified that this is so), is to call the County Coroner's office (which you should have talked to very close to the beginning of this process), on the 24-hour phone number they will have given to you, and obtain a Coroner's Case Number. That Coroner's Case Number is used for EVERYTHING, and provides, in effect, "permission" from the county of death for another county to do the actual disposition (in this case: cremation)--and also for you to be able to transport the body from where it is, to the crematory you have chosen. (To the best of my knowledge, it is prohibited for private citizens to transport dead bodies on public roads without specific permission. The Coroner's Case Number IS that "permission.")
I know that many, and very possibly most, people would NOT want to do this, but I found it profoundly healing, and not nearly as complicated as it appeared to be in the beginning. (Helped a great deal by the fact that most everyone I talked to or dealt with [minus one person: the woman in the Vital Records office who gave me the first blank Death Certificate, who seemed to be highly suspicious of a private citizen doing this instead of a funeral home] was understanding, extremely kind, and went out of their way to be helpful in every possible way.)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 03:54PM by Tevai.
-------------------------------------------------------
> My boyfriend's dad was cremated and it sure
> sounded like a lot of money from what he told me.
Cremation CAN cost a lot of money if the person in charge goes through a mortuary/"funeral home."
If that person in charge were to do the necessary paperwork themselves (which requires some schlepping of papers from one person to another person for signatures, etc.), and did the transporting of the body to the crematory themselves [MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE REQUIRED PAPERWORK WITH YOU!!--this is in case you might be pulled over by police officers], the entire process can be done for what amounts to a fraction of the "otherwise" cost.
See: CARING FOR THE DEAD, a "how to" guide by Lisa Carlson (this title is a more recent edition of her original title: CARING FOR YOUR OWN DEAD).
Laws vary, so you need to do some calling around to verify what laws would apply to you in your state. (Lisa Carlson's book will be of great help and guidance in this particular subject, keeping in mind that in some states, laws may further vary by the specific county the death takes place in (or possibly, which county the crematory is located in).
Working backwards in the process may be of help in states other than California (the state where my experience has been). If you decide to work backwards: call your choices of your local crematories first, tell them you are going to be handling the arrangements yourself, and ask what their costs are, and what their particular requirements are (the crematory we used required a human-sized, cardboard container for the body to be delivered in, which is easily available from most any local funeral home, though funeral homes may charge you for this; the one we obtained from a local funeral home was given to us without any cost at all), and any advice they might have for you--advice which you have the option of adopting, or rejecting.
If the death in anticipated, you need to go to your local County offices and get a blank copy of their Death Certificate form, which you will complete. Ask if there are any requirements for HOW the certificate must be completed: for example: using a typewriter (I don't know how you would do this on a computer). Be aware that ANY mistake made on the Death Certificate requires that you obtain a completely new blank certificate, because no "white outs," erasures, or writeovers are permitted. (My father's doctor accidentally ticked a wrong box on my first attempt, and I had to return the unacceptable certificate to the Vital Records department, obtain a new blank copy, and start all over again.) At the beginning of this process, I had originally asked for a couple of blanks just in case, but was told this was not possible--only one blank certificate could be "out there," for a particular decedent, at any one time.
I don't know if this is a general law or not, but in my experience in California this is essential: the very first thing, after you know that death has occurred (and possibly after a hospice nurse has verified that this is so), is to call the County Coroner's office (which you should have talked to very close to the beginning of this process), on the 24-hour phone number they will have given to you, and obtain a Coroner's Case Number. That Coroner's Case Number is used for EVERYTHING, and provides, in effect, "permission" from the county of death for another county to do the actual disposition (in this case: cremation)--and also for you to be able to transport the body from where it is, to the crematory you have chosen. (To the best of my knowledge, it is prohibited for private citizens to transport dead bodies on public roads without specific permission. The Coroner's Case Number IS that "permission.")
I know that many, and very possibly most, people would NOT want to do this, but I found it profoundly healing, and not nearly as complicated as it appeared to be in the beginning. (Helped a great deal by the fact that most everyone I talked to or dealt with [minus one person: the woman in the Vital Records office who gave me the first blank Death Certificate, who seemed to be highly suspicious of a private citizen doing this instead of a funeral home] was understanding, extremely kind, and went out of their way to be helpful in every possible way.)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 03:54PM by Tevai.
Sooo HOT they can't keep them on the shelves!!!
URNS are under the bed...counting from right to left...5, 6, 7 or 8...YOUR choice...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Abraham_Facsimile_1_1851_Denoised.png
Or so it seems to me...
URNS are under the bed...counting from right to left...5, 6, 7 or 8...YOUR choice...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Abraham_Facsimile_1_1851_Denoised.png
Or so it seems to me...
> URNS are under the bed
> ...counting from right
> to left...5, 6, 7 or 8
> ...YOUR choice...
"Creamies" (that's what people who are really 'with it' call the occupants of the urns) are scared to death of the vacuum cleaner!
When that nozzle head starts poking under the bed, the creamies all freak out!
> ...counting from right
> to left...5, 6, 7 or 8
> ...YOUR choice...
"Creamies" (that's what people who are really 'with it' call the occupants of the urns) are scared to death of the vacuum cleaner!
When that nozzle head starts poking under the bed, the creamies all freak out!
elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > URNS are under the bed
> > ...counting from right
> > to left...5, 6, 7 or 8
> > ...YOUR choice...
>
>
> "Creamies" (that's what people who are really
> 'with it' call the occupants of the urns) are
> scared to death of the vacuum cleaner!
>
> When that nozzle head starts poking under the bed,
> the creamies all freak out!
Creamies???? Really? I wanna be air dried up on a wooden
rack in the mountains or foothills... Wrap me up in white
linnen, mummy style and I'll be dehydrated in no time.
-------------------------------------------------------
> > URNS are under the bed
> > ...counting from right
> > to left...5, 6, 7 or 8
> > ...YOUR choice...
>
>
> "Creamies" (that's what people who are really
> 'with it' call the occupants of the urns) are
> scared to death of the vacuum cleaner!
>
> When that nozzle head starts poking under the bed,
> the creamies all freak out!
Creamies???? Really? I wanna be air dried up on a wooden
rack in the mountains or foothills... Wrap me up in white
linnen, mummy style and I'll be dehydrated in no time.
Prefer the Scandanavian method of Quick freeze in liquid Nitrogen, then shaking into little pieces. Can bury them or scatter around and they go into soil quickly. No big graves needed.
OneWayJay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Prefer the Scandanavian method of Quick freeze in
> liquid Nitrogen, then shaking into little pieces.
> Can bury them or scatter around and they go into
> soil quickly. No big graves needed.
I have never heard of this.
If true, this is an excellent (and I think probably very planet friendly) way.
P.S. I have talked before about my inadvertent "collection" of ashes from my aunt (one of the all-time most important people in my life), and from several extremely beloved pets. As of yesterday, when I saw an anonymous "someone" distributing ashes into the ocean surf in a video on YouTube, I now (at last!) think that this is the best final disposition for all of them--especially since they were all California residents when they died.
So: I am probably going to be taking a short trip over the coastal mountain range soon, after which, I will no longer possess an inadvertent "collection" of ashes.
I think all of them would be very pleased at my choice.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Prefer the Scandanavian method of Quick freeze in
> liquid Nitrogen, then shaking into little pieces.
> Can bury them or scatter around and they go into
> soil quickly. No big graves needed.
I have never heard of this.
If true, this is an excellent (and I think probably very planet friendly) way.
P.S. I have talked before about my inadvertent "collection" of ashes from my aunt (one of the all-time most important people in my life), and from several extremely beloved pets. As of yesterday, when I saw an anonymous "someone" distributing ashes into the ocean surf in a video on YouTube, I now (at last!) think that this is the best final disposition for all of them--especially since they were all California residents when they died.
So: I am probably going to be taking a short trip over the coastal mountain range soon, after which, I will no longer possess an inadvertent "collection" of ashes.
I think all of them would be very pleased at my choice.
If a body could be shattered and freeze dried, I can imagine it could be reduced to a small amount. Humans are famously, mostly made of water - remove that, and you're left with little.
On the other hand, while ash is not likely to rot away, your freeze dried remains will become organic sludge on contact with water.
On the other hand, while ash is not likely to rot away, your freeze dried remains will become organic sludge on contact with water.
Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a body could be shattered and freeze dried, I
> can imagine it could be reduced to a small amount.
> Humans are famously, mostly made of water - remove
> that, and you're left with little.
My personal experience is that an adult female human body reduces to [EDIT: 6.4 pounds pounds of ashes, according to my bathroom scale]....and an adult cat or poodle-sized dog to a few ounces. [I just returned from our storage unit, with my aunt's ashes. I obviously misremembered (I received these ashes almost thirty years ago), so I have revised the adult female human ashes figure upwards.]
(The crematory which handles cats and dogs puts the eventual ashes into small envelopes, something like the offering collection envelopes I saw in Christian churches when I was growing up, or the envelopes used to package bulk herbs, seeds, and herbal teas, when you buy a few ounces of them from health food stores. Human ashes, in my experience, are put into an appropriately-sized plastic bag, which is then put into a harder-sided plastic container, or a cardboard box, for protection.)
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2019 07:41PM by Tevai.
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a body could be shattered and freeze dried, I
> can imagine it could be reduced to a small amount.
> Humans are famously, mostly made of water - remove
> that, and you're left with little.
My personal experience is that an adult female human body reduces to [EDIT: 6.4 pounds pounds of ashes, according to my bathroom scale]....and an adult cat or poodle-sized dog to a few ounces. [I just returned from our storage unit, with my aunt's ashes. I obviously misremembered (I received these ashes almost thirty years ago), so I have revised the adult female human ashes figure upwards.]
(The crematory which handles cats and dogs puts the eventual ashes into small envelopes, something like the offering collection envelopes I saw in Christian churches when I was growing up, or the envelopes used to package bulk herbs, seeds, and herbal teas, when you buy a few ounces of them from health food stores. Human ashes, in my experience, are put into an appropriately-sized plastic bag, which is then put into a harder-sided plastic container, or a cardboard box, for protection.)
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2019 07:41PM by Tevai.
Don’t most synagogues have arrangements with Jewish Cemeteries for their members,if they want to be buried in one? I do like the respect shown for the dead and the mourners family. The tradition of saying Kaddish during services each week for the Yahrzeit of those who died and the plaques they have on the wAll with their names on it and the light that’s lit on their Yahrzeit.
My (now retired) rabbi gave a sermon on why it's important in Judaism to be buried rather than cremated. It's because of the body being the house for the soul that God gives us for our lifetime, that it isn't for us to destroy it. God gives, let God take away.
If someone is lost at sea, or dies from a fire, that is different and cannot be helped. It's when we are able to with understanding plan and prepare for ours and our loved ones burials (whenever possible,) the important belief is not to desecrate the body. In much the same way it's not recommended to maim or harm the body in other ways either while living.
Mormonism taught that also in a similar vein, but without the same Jewish wisdom as much intact.
Yet cremation remains a viable alternative in this day and age for those who simply cannot afford the cost of a burial and funeral with casket. For some people the few thousand dollars is just not there or they have more pressing bills to take care of than a burial when a loved one dies. It's sad but a reality of the changing times we're living in economically when even the traditions are becoming too much of a financial burden that family ties are eroding more and more. Because traditionally funerals and burials were another tradition that connected generations one to the next. A place of burial where loved ones and posterity can go to place flowers and pay their respects. When we lose that connection to our loved ones, it just seems like we're losing a vital sense of ourselves and our history. And what makes us human.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 12:45AM by Amyjo.
If someone is lost at sea, or dies from a fire, that is different and cannot be helped. It's when we are able to with understanding plan and prepare for ours and our loved ones burials (whenever possible,) the important belief is not to desecrate the body. In much the same way it's not recommended to maim or harm the body in other ways either while living.
Mormonism taught that also in a similar vein, but without the same Jewish wisdom as much intact.
Yet cremation remains a viable alternative in this day and age for those who simply cannot afford the cost of a burial and funeral with casket. For some people the few thousand dollars is just not there or they have more pressing bills to take care of than a burial when a loved one dies. It's sad but a reality of the changing times we're living in economically when even the traditions are becoming too much of a financial burden that family ties are eroding more and more. Because traditionally funerals and burials were another tradition that connected generations one to the next. A place of burial where loved ones and posterity can go to place flowers and pay their respects. When we lose that connection to our loved ones, it just seems like we're losing a vital sense of ourselves and our history. And what makes us human.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 12:45AM by Amyjo.
Hockeyrat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don’t most synagogues have arrangements with
> Jewish Cemeteries for their members,if they want
> to be buried in one?
This is a startling new idea to me, and when I Googled, here is what I found:
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/rabbi-i-have-a-problem/should-i-have-to-join-a-synagogue-to-become-part-of-a-burial-scheme-1.468919
> I do like the respect shown
> for the dead and the mourners family.
I have always been impressed with this too. In my case, no one in my family is Jewish, so although what I intellectually know about the Jewish way of dying has theoretical appeal, in real life the experience of Jewish death and mourning is terra incognito to me personally.
> The tradition of saying Kaddish during services each
> week for the Yahrzeit of those who died and the
> plaques they have on the wAll with their names on
> it and the light that’s lit on their Yahrzeit.
I agree, though all of this (except for saying the mourner's Kaddish during daily, Shabbat, and High Holy Day services) is just not in my personal "world."
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don’t most synagogues have arrangements with
> Jewish Cemeteries for their members,if they want
> to be buried in one?
This is a startling new idea to me, and when I Googled, here is what I found:
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/rabbi-i-have-a-problem/should-i-have-to-join-a-synagogue-to-become-part-of-a-burial-scheme-1.468919
> I do like the respect shown
> for the dead and the mourners family.
I have always been impressed with this too. In my case, no one in my family is Jewish, so although what I intellectually know about the Jewish way of dying has theoretical appeal, in real life the experience of Jewish death and mourning is terra incognito to me personally.
> The tradition of saying Kaddish during services each
> week for the Yahrzeit of those who died and the
> plaques they have on the wAll with their names on
> it and the light that’s lit on their Yahrzeit.
I agree, though all of this (except for saying the mourner's Kaddish during daily, Shabbat, and High Holy Day services) is just not in my personal "world."
I'm pretty much the same way since no one else in my immediate or extended family (exception is daughter living in Israel, and other cousins there I haven't met, plus my Hawaiian cousin I have,) are Jewish.
There is no way in he!! I want a Mormon funeral although I will be buried in a Mormon cemetery. As for a Jewish one, who do I really know well enough in Idaho or Utah that would bother going when I die? (Maybe someone will, I haven't moved there yet.) It's just mostly extended family who live near where I want to move to ie, relatives of mine close enough to occasionally visit but far enough away not to make it a habit.
There are a few Jewish people living there. But only a sprinkling. Las Vegas is where there's an active Jewish presence. More than 80,000 live there. If it weren't so hot and drab I might consider Vegas to retire to.
Don't want to be so far away from where I'll be buried to make it impractical to transport my body for burial either. Which is another consideration for where I may end up retiring to. Heck, maybe I could become the caretaker at the cemetery so when the time comes I'll just dig my own hole and jump in. That will save a whole lot of time, cost and planning. I could even bring my own pot of daisies to place on top. That would be keeping it really simple.
But for the cemetery now requires not only a coffin, but a vault that fits over the coffin before going into the ground. So that nearly doubles the expense I should think of just the coffin right there.
There is no way in he!! I want a Mormon funeral although I will be buried in a Mormon cemetery. As for a Jewish one, who do I really know well enough in Idaho or Utah that would bother going when I die? (Maybe someone will, I haven't moved there yet.) It's just mostly extended family who live near where I want to move to ie, relatives of mine close enough to occasionally visit but far enough away not to make it a habit.
There are a few Jewish people living there. But only a sprinkling. Las Vegas is where there's an active Jewish presence. More than 80,000 live there. If it weren't so hot and drab I might consider Vegas to retire to.
Don't want to be so far away from where I'll be buried to make it impractical to transport my body for burial either. Which is another consideration for where I may end up retiring to. Heck, maybe I could become the caretaker at the cemetery so when the time comes I'll just dig my own hole and jump in. That will save a whole lot of time, cost and planning. I could even bring my own pot of daisies to place on top. That would be keeping it really simple.
But for the cemetery now requires not only a coffin, but a vault that fits over the coffin before going into the ground. So that nearly doubles the expense I should think of just the coffin right there.
The reference to Scandinavian freeze drying of bodies in liquid nitrogen earlier in this thread is highly misleading. I know, shocking that would happen on RFM.
It was the idea of single Swedish biologist. She founded a company in 1997 to explore the idea and see if it was feasible. the company was liquidated in 2015 without ever coming up with a workable process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promession
It was the idea of single Swedish biologist. She founded a company in 1997 to explore the idea and see if it was feasible. the company was liquidated in 2015 without ever coming up with a workable process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promession
> ...the company was liquid-
> nitrogenated in 2015 without
> ever coming up with a workable
> process.
Damn it! Didn't they watch The Empire Strikes Back?
> nitrogenated in 2015 without
> ever coming up with a workable
> process.
Damn it! Didn't they watch The Empire Strikes Back?
I don't see it as a bad idea (shades of Terminator 2). One of my relatives worked in the mail order food industry and all the freeze dried products they had tended to be things that were thin to begin with. A human body is another matter.
I imagine the main problem is smashinf a body up. It would be like breaking up candy.
I don't know what the market price of liquid nitrogen is, which is another potential issue.
I imagine the main problem is smashinf a body up. It would be like breaking up candy.
I don't know what the market price of liquid nitrogen is, which is another potential issue.
Cremation..boy that’s gonna be hot!
dirtbikr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cremation..boy that’s gonna be hot!
As someone who has performed many cremations during my career in funeral service, I can confirm that it is definitely hot! The temperature in the furnace or "retort" can reach 1,800 degrees F. It is a good idea for the person performing the cremation to wear protective clothing, especially since with some retorts it is considered helpful by operators to open the retort at certain points and do what is necessary to help keep the body burning efficiently. Then after the cremation, one must sweep out the brittle skeletal remains and grind them up in a machine before placing them in a container or urn.
One must be careful when cremating someone who is overweight because, depending on the retort, the excess burning fat can cause the retort to overheat and black smoke can come out of the crematory chimney. And even with cremations of bodies of normal weight, I've heard people walking by the crematory during a cremation say that it smelled like burning steaks.
Of course, not all mortuaries (funeral homes) own crematories and it has been some years since I worked at one that does. So I'm not familiar with any improvements in retorts that might have taken place in recent years. But burning is still burning!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cremation..boy that’s gonna be hot!
As someone who has performed many cremations during my career in funeral service, I can confirm that it is definitely hot! The temperature in the furnace or "retort" can reach 1,800 degrees F. It is a good idea for the person performing the cremation to wear protective clothing, especially since with some retorts it is considered helpful by operators to open the retort at certain points and do what is necessary to help keep the body burning efficiently. Then after the cremation, one must sweep out the brittle skeletal remains and grind them up in a machine before placing them in a container or urn.
One must be careful when cremating someone who is overweight because, depending on the retort, the excess burning fat can cause the retort to overheat and black smoke can come out of the crematory chimney. And even with cremations of bodies of normal weight, I've heard people walking by the crematory during a cremation say that it smelled like burning steaks.
Of course, not all mortuaries (funeral homes) own crematories and it has been some years since I worked at one that does. So I'm not familiar with any improvements in retorts that might have taken place in recent years. But burning is still burning!
For those here who may be interested in true crime accounts, here is a link to a video about a major criminal scandal regarding cremation that took place some years ago in Southern California. The video is part of the "Ask a Mortician" series on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCBZ918FPGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCBZ918FPGA
A sharp retort is not always appreciated!
I'm for cremation! I don't want to wake up in a coffin, buried in the ground.