There's a very interesting article in the Salt Lake Tribune this morning. The title is "LDS Church's fraud concerns complicate people's exit from the faith via web portal."
I can't seem to comment on the article because a notice pops up that I'm using a banned word.
Basically, an immigration attorney has created a website to help people resign from TSCC. The church is crying "fraud" and is now demanding that the letters have to be notarized.
Is the church getting that desperate?
I've heard that in any other religion (Catholic,Protestant,etc) you can decide to leave any time you want without any hassles.

Fake church fake authority.
The only power they have is what we unwittingly give them.

We don't need their permission. For anything.

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fake church fake authority.
> The only power they have is what we unwittingly
> give them.
>
> We don't need their permission. For anything.


Thank ghawd.

Membership is entirely voluntary. Pretending that you can't officially resign until you've jumped through all of the hoops that the church bureaucracy has pulled out of its butt at any particular time is ridiculous.

Your resignation is official when YOU decide. When you tell any representative of the church (whether a bishop or home teacher) that you no longer want to be a member, that's the end of the story. They can play around with themselves going through whatever procedures they want to go through to make themselves happy...but that's their problem. If the publicly announce your removal from the church membership in a way that unfairly damages your reputation (by implication or insinuation), then you may have grounds to sue them for defamation.

Well said...the cult has no power

Honestly, I can’t remember the website but I learned exactly how to resign where I wouldn’t be given any problems from a website back in 2012. My resignation was so precise, I received absolutely no push back. One of the key things to say is effective immediately, once you make that statement, you’re out and can’t be put under “church discipline” also as a back to practicing Catholic I can confirm continuing to be a practicing Catholic will always be your business. No one is going to twist your arm or make you jump through hoops if you stop being a practicing Catholic and if you ever decide to return after a long absence there isn’t a lengthy repentance process to have to go through but a “welcome home” type mentality.

My experience is that most mainstream protestant churches have a similar attitude.Also, if you go to church x, then church y will be happy that you are going somewhere. I suppose that they see it that your soul takes precedence over your tithe.

This article is really interesting, elderolddog! Thank you!

there is some wisdom in this, It's called IDENTITY THEFT.

I could generate fake resignations for my children & send them in, couldn't I?

The attorney asked the one true law firm (Kirton McConkie) to provide even one instance of ID misrepresentation or "fraud" and KMcC couldn't do it. Just made a baseless assertion that it was happening.

No, it's just one more example of the church trying to exert its measure of dwindling control over its formerly-compliant base.

There’s always the old standby. Do stuff to get excommunicated.

I don't think it's so easy to be excommunicated today without breaking the law. In the old days having pre-marital sex could lead to excommunication but it seems it is no longer enough.

My TBM friend drinks alcohol and has sex with her boyfriends, and tells the bishop. She hasn't been kicked out but has been told she can still pay her tithing. She can't go to the temple though; she is tainted but her money is not.

Would telling the bishop that the BOA is not what he thinks and that he should take a long walk on a short pier do it?

If push comes to shove, can you just not go and tell any one who calls Genesis 9:1

OP47,

I had never heard that phrase, "he should take a long walk on a short pier."

I personally like, "Go pound sand or take a flying leap in a rolling doughnut."

My friend had sex with her now husband before marriage and before his divorce was finalized. They were both excommunicated. They married civilly and I attended the wedding. I didn’t find it odd at the time because I knew both their previous sealings hadn’t been cancelled yet. I did however find it odd she wasn’t wearing her garments but she claimed that the dress showed her garments and the dress was donated by a friend and she didn’t want any hurt feelings. I realize now they had already been excommunicated which explains a lot that went on but as a freshly new member I didn’t connect the dots at the time, the way I can now. She stepped away from TSCC for a while and attended a Methodist Church a few times which is what her Dad was before he converted in his younger days. She didn’t admit any of these things to me until years later. She came back and so did her husband but I think it took two years before she was rebaptized. She had her endowments reinstated. It took them six years before they were granted sealing cancellations and were just sealed this year I think it was or the end of 2018. But..my point in all of this was you do not have to do something illegal to get excommunicated. This happened 2013 I believe and was a long and lengthy process for them. I however resigned and didn’t return not long after their excommunication.

You could always show up at F&T meetings and lay it all out:

* Different versions of the first vision
* Book of Abraham problems
* DNA and the Lamanites
* Polyandry
* The circular logic associated with following the prophet
* Problems with assuming male superiority
* on and on...

As soon as a mormon leader knows someone has left and they no longer contribute or participate it means that they're gone.

Any other conclusion is stupid. Are mormons admitting that fact?

We don't need to do anything or say anything or mail anything

to leave the mormon church.. we are not slaves. We are out

when WE say we are out. Believe.

I saw that about the demand for a notarized letter. I think it's gotten absolutely ridiculous. What a nasty church. At this point, I think that most people are better off sending their own emails to Member Records.

If the Mormon church makes it too difficult to resign, I wonder if a case could be made against the church. People have a right to resign without undue difficulty.

I really liked the last paragraph of the Quit Mormon article. It is why TSCC finds the Internet so threatening.

"In his article in Ensign magazine, Adam Kotter wrote that the internet leads to questions and doubts by exposing Mormons to “ideas that challenge their beliefs.” But if the internet is inherently threatening to the Church, or to any faith, it’s perhaps not because of the way it affirms doubts. Rather, it’s in the community it opens up — a community that can be just as close-knit and supportive as a ward. Where ChurchofJesusChrist. org offers scripture, the internet beyond the Church’s domain shines light into what has historically been a black box: the lives of the people who have left."

Well you can quit any time you like. Who says you have to go through their hoops and resign?

When I was 11, I quit the Girl Scouts. I just stopped showing up. I never sent them a letter, notarized or otherwise. As far as I know, I'm still "on their rolls." Not that it makes any difference one way or another. (That said, I love the Girl Scouts as it makes girls strong, independent women.)

I get the point about the missionary visits and all that crap, but why return the phone calls or answer the door? I never answer the door when the Jehovah's Witnesses show up on Saturday morning. Even when they look right through and see me sitting on the couch. Then they go away.

Eventually, everyone goes away.

Even if one does get one's name "off the rolls," they're still going to claim 15M, so what difference does it make?

Not in Utah. My no religious inquiries sign does not stop them from knocking. I have not officially resigned.

And then they're going to re-baptize us after we're dead and buried.

Talk about not letting us go!

That screams C-U-L-T !!!!

A religion that won't let its people leave exhibits cult behavior. The LDS Church (I refuse to call them their full name to appease them) and more radical fundamentalist churches just can't let people walk away...no matter how much they preach 'free will'. Losing money and power scares them.

If they continue to force people to jump through hoops to get out, the LDS Church WILL find themselves back in court. It will end like it did in the late 1980s, early '90s: A public relations black eye and a lost court case.

Some people and churches just never learn...long live free will and the internet.

Same here. I still call them Mormons. And it Mormon. Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, Mormon.

You don't have to jump through any hoops to stop attending and move on with your life. It's not a matter of "letting" you leave. You just go. There's a point where you are keeping yourself tied down to them by exaggerating the importance of formally resigning.

Pretty much any other church, you could just go. Unfortunately, the Mormons most often simply can not bring themselves to stop harassing you with phone calls and visits.

How many times have you been encouraged to call or visit or "minister to" inactives, Reader? Has it ever dawned on you that those inactives might just want to be left alone? Think about that next time you sit in Ward Council or are listening to yet another way to reactivate those who want to "just go."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2019 06:56PM by summer.

The Quit..... website provides a transparent, real time source of statistics on the numbers of people leaving the church. Resigning in other ways does not provide that.

Not our problem. Let them fret and let them punch a few computer keys if necessary some day if someone turns in a resignation for the bishop. If he's still interested in being a member, he'll attend meetings and donate to the building fund unlike those who actually resign.

google

"quit Mormon twitter" - top entry.

Stats explain this TSCC move of desperation.

compelling. Thank you.

Hasn't the SCOTUS in 2008 determine the procedure to resign?

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2008/10/14/629888/-HOW-TO-RESIGN-FROM-THE-LDS-CHURCH

If SCC is putting further conditions, they are setting themselves up for major law suits.

This is sooooo outrageous.

I know beyond any doubt that the Mormon Church is false and wrong, and that supporting it by continued membership makes me complicit to some degree. I have been thinking about resigning for years, but so far my wife will not allow it. She demands that I continue my feigned belief, and continue my children's indoctrination, or she will divorce me. God forbid. And if that were not enough, my parents would be very upset too! It would be sooo hard! And, it is all the fault of the Mormon Church. I am so angry.

So, up to now, I have been willing to swallow my pride, sacrifice my integrity, and allow my children to be raised under the teachings and influence of a cult that I know is evil, just waiting for the right time to resign. And just when I am about to resign, whatever the consequences, we get this new outrage.

I will not let them get away with it. I will not allow them to manipulate me into performing this outrageous task, so I guess I will just have to stay in another ten years. That will show them!

Damn cult!

Sorry, but you're being Blackmailed - coerced by family; I was close to that myself, but I couldn't tolerate the hate & lies that underlies ChurchCo; it also manifests in greed.

The SPINELESS ChurchCo leaders can't / won't acknowledge or admit that they're COMPLICIT with ppl like your family & others to extort doubters/people with legitimate unanswered questions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2019 07:29PM by GNPE.

Wow, that's tough, FE. It would be hard for me to stay in a marriage like that. I'm sure you have your reasons and I wish you best of luck.

Good luck. I couldn't do that.

But you do understand that (it sounds like) your wife doesn't love *you*, right? She loves (1) the church, followed by (2) her mormon fantasy version of you.

And this may sound harsh, but by allowing the kids to be mormondoctrinated, you're effectively sacrificing them on the altar of wife appeasement. If the kids ever figure out the truth, they might not take it all that well. They could easily be furious at both of you – and justifiably so – but for wholly different reasons. What doth it profit a man to gain a marriage, but lose his children?

Just something to ponderize.

I'd like to look up the SCOTUS decision regarding resignations (from religious organizations); while I google it, does anyone have it handy?

is in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Logically, you can't have freedom of religion if a religious organization has the power to prevent you from disassociating from their particular brand of religion. I don't think a SCOTUS decision is necessary.

There's nothing that a religious organization can do to you lawfully to prevent you from resigning whenever you want.

Substantial harassment? Illegal.

Taking your money without your permission? Theft.

Publicly humiliating you or causing harm to your reputation? Potentially actionable in a defamation lawsuit.

They can shun you. But you don't want to be in their community anyway. The JWs take it a bit further by requiring believing family members and friends to shun you too. But ultimately it's up to your family members and friends to decide whether to play along.

I posted what I found in an earlier message.


https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2008/10/14/629888/-HOW-TO-RESIGN-FROM-THE-LDS-CHURCH

Guinn was **NOT** decided by SCOTUS. It was decided by the Oklahoma State Supreme Court. I am not aware that SCOTUS has ever addressed the issue.

Tha Hancock case was settled by LD$, Inc without an actual judgment being entered.

Just guessing here, but:

I don't see this coming up to the USSC (SCOTUS, ha ha);

I think freedom of association is so well established that no court would controvene it, even if not directly mentioned in the Constitution (?)

Makes me very glad I no longer have to think about doing that. This year marks my 14th anniversary since resigning. :)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2019 09:04AM by Amyjo.

done it for my son or showed him how or my brother, who wants out, too. Well, most of my family is inactive anyway, but I'm glad I resigned. They OWN us or so they think.

Well, it does make sense in a way. People need birth certificates to get baptized etc.

Something to support they are who they say they are regardless of their age.

It does make sense especially in this day of ID theft that TSCC would initiate another layer of red tape to delay resignation because of potential fraud. Who's to say someone can't obtain access to public records and start resigning every name on it that is a member of the cult?

It is possible to do, and therefore not unlikely that a prankster, an angry ex-Mormon, or just about anyone would do such a thing just because they can.

When I resigned it was by snail mail. I didn't need my birth certificate. I did use my return address, and gave whatever information was needed at the time to establish who I was, along with my daughter who I resigned for her since she was a minor. My son wasn't a member. Both of my children had been baptized previously in the RLDS before we'd gone back to the LDS for a stint of time. They were baptized together on the same day. I've never had that one "undone," because I haven't felt the need to do that. They haven't chased us around or plagued us like the Mormons did.

No, never.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, never.


me neither, No one. I've never heard of it.

To declare that a person needs a birth certificate to be

baptised in the mormon church is false information. Not

true.

They didn’t ask me for my birth certificate when I was baptized but I was 25 at the time.

Nobody I ever baptized needed to present a birth certificate. It might be requested at a baby blessing, to make sure they get the name right, but I can't imagine it is ever required.

Marriage license is required to get sealed in US. I would imagine that is true even for people already married when they get sealed, in order to verify that they are legally married, if for no other reason than to stop polygs from getting sealed in LDS temples.

I was probably confusing it with the baby blessing.

I know when I joined Daughters of the American Revolution it required birth &/or death certificates for each generation linking me to my Revolutionary War ancestor. If that wasn't bad enough, because my ancestors came through Mormon converts it made it especially difficult to find some of those vital statistics since some of them either didn't exist or ceased to exist.

Utah didn't start keeping vital statistics until after 1889 or thereabouts. My genealogist registrar went to great lengths on my behalf to establish written family histories by ancestors during those generations to establish my ancestral connection where lapses existed when vital statistics weren't available.

It took three long years for me to become a member of DAR because of the early Mormon lack of record keeping. My DAR registrar blamed it on early religious persecution (she's not LDS either,) causing the LDS to keep on the move from one community to the next until they kept moving to settle the frontier west.

So the day may be right around the corner when resigning from TSCC is going to require an assistant registrar to help people get unhitched lol. And I thought that's what the poor lawyer in Salt Lake was trying to do until the ID theft concern became a reality. Another layer of red tape has been hatched to make it harder for people to leave TSCC.

I'd still rather notarize a resignation to make sure it's official than not, when it comes down to the heart of the matter.

I don't know where you got your iformation but You don't need

a birth certificate or death certificate for each generation to

join the DAR, at least my grandmother didn't need to although

she was invited by them to become a member.

You do to verify the ancestral connections. And marriage certificates.

It isn't easy to become a member without the verification process. It is exhausting. If it weren't for my registrar I would have been lost without her.

She was diligent on my behalf after I'd given up on the process because of all the red tape involved. Washington DC has become much more demanding in recent years, according to her, to join and she has been a member for decades. Last year alone she told me there were more than 4,000 DAR members who lost their memberships because they were not vetted enough.

Now that I've been thoroughly vetted on one ancestral line (I've counted six patriots thus far but don't plan on vetting more anytime soon,) my nieces & nephews & children can use my verifications if they want to join since I've been through the process on this ancestor. I'm the first in my family branch to have thus far. The rest of my extended female family on that side of my family tree seem more inclined in joining Daughters of the Utah Pioneers which is mostly a Mormon pioneer heritage group. Although there is no requirement to be LDS to join it as it's open to any and all descendants of Utah pioneers and is international in scope. I may join that after I retire and relocate back west since I've already been invited to become a volunteer at a DUP museum, and my 86 year old cousin sent me an application to join.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2019 06:18PM by Amyjo.

Clearly they're trying to throw sand into the gears of the online process.

However an ordinary letter is an option.

That's how I resigned in 2005, without needing a notary. Then ID theft wasn't as big a concern as it is today.

I think it is more likely they are trying to throw sand in the gears of using a law firm. I imagine when they get a resignation from a law firm, they have to, as a matter of policy, send it to their own law firm, to verify that there are no surprises in the resignation letter. Their lawyer spends two minutes reading it, says it is ok, and bills TSCC $50. This pisses them off.

As a result, they are trying to make using the law firm awkward and annoying. It looks like they succeeded, and as an added benefit to them, they have probably sown enough confusion that some people think all resignations need to be notarized (not true) and some people just won't bother. For some people, just addressing an envelope and slapping a stamp on it used to be too much trouble until email resignation became a thing.

Oh, and nobody needs to use a law firm. Resigning is only slightly more complicated than canceling a credit card. Yeah, you have to put it in writing, but that is probably faster than dealing with the average credit card company phone tree.

Whether you resign or just don't show up it doesn't matter. When you are done it's on your terms. Resign or leave it my mind it is the same.

I have family that is very active and others that are inactive. They haven't resigned but lds culture is absent from their life.

Unfortunately, there are ways it makes a difference.

As a member you can't stop certain hassles should they pressure you. You're a member, they're merely checking after the welfare of a member (they will say), and legally they're fine.

Resigning is easy and simple. And it gives you the power to end those hassles. You're no longer a member; they have no rights; full stop.

It made a significant improvement for me. Only it didn't stop the blokes from interfering with my then adult daughter. They caused much damage and heartbreak with my family during my time as a Mormon, and since my leaving because they knew they could. They seemed to take delight in causing suffering to our family.

For that I will never forgive them. How can I? They have no remorse. They go on their merry way leaving a trail of destruction.

It's the individual who says when they are no longer in an organization.

Organizations don't have a right to hold anyone captive after they say they're no longer willing to comply.

The law states that a church must provide a reasonable resignation course of action. The law does not say that this must be the only way to quit a church.