"Institutionalized child sexual abuse." People who choose to stay Catholic do so with a blind eye to that past obviously. While raising families with hopes for a better future.
I went to a Catholic funeral yesterday of a neighbor. Her children and grandchildren were there and had an active part in the service.
Her religion meant everything to her. It represented her faith that was her life.
For people who want to leave though, it would seem logical there'd be a mechanism for them to resign their membership. I'm surprised too there isn't.
Some of those former Catholics truly do not wish to be associated as Catholics any longer. Why should they be required to be? It makes no sense that they remain consigned as Catholics for life if they choose to leave and withdraw themselves from church membership.
With Catholicism you can have a toe in the water and be all right. They don't harass their members. And have pretty good boundaries! Members don't come pounding on your door when you don't want to be bothered and a funeral service isn't considered a good place to proselytize and bring you back to God. Mormons are literally forced to have their names removed from the books to stop the harassment!
Right there, but only a cult would baptize people after they've died. That is ludicrous, especially if the person in life wanted nothing to do with Mormonism and made their wishes known.
For those who resign or are ex-communicated they/we know we too will be baptized after we're deceased against our wishes.
There should be a law against that. Why someone hasn't brought a class action lawsuit or an injunction against TSCC for people like us who want nothing to do with the cult now or in the hereafter in terms of membership, we should have the right to be left alone and our wishes respected and honored. It is desecrating to the memory of loved ones to be treated this way, even if the Mormons are practicing their religion. It flies in the face of civility and norms of conduct in the 21st century. Because it disrespects the beliefs and religious rights of others to practice and believe the way they choose. Mormons force their religion on others - even though they deny it. That's a bold faced lie.
babyloncansuckit Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If other people are screwed because they don’t > believe as you do, shouldn’t you try to save > them from themselves? >
Hell NO! You are responsible for your salvation. Leave others out of it. If you can't save yourself what's the point of saving others? Nor is it possible to 'save the world.' Look at all the people who died trying.
> Is it our sins that will condemn us, or our bad > taste in religions? Because that’s bat sh*t > crazy.
The best hope we have for our lives and this planet is to try and leave it a little bit better than we found it, instead of worse for the wear. Reform, like charity, begins at home. People need to fix themselves if they hope to fix the world.
Nothing, they just go on their way. My mother was born Catholic and became Lutheran when she married my Dad. The Catholic church never came looking for her.
If you wrote to the Vatican and said you wanted to resign, they wouldn't know what you were actually asking for.
Apostasy is as simple as falling away, stopping believing/attending, or joining another religion. There's no administrative equivalent to the way the LDS church tracks members.
Yes, you just stop going if you are fed up with the Catholic church, and you can join any other church or none and nobody will bother you. You can't be re-baptized in the Catholic church nor in mainstream Protestant churches that practice infant baptism, as baptism is considered a one-time event. It is a very different point of view and mindset from the LDS concept of baptism.
You can leave and come back to the Catholic church with no formal notification or ceremony. I know plenty of ex-Catholics who have joined the Episcopal or Presbyterian, Methodist, or other Christian denominations, also those who have become atheists or agnostics. The idea of formally resigning does not even come up.
From article: "That was good enough for Combs for years, but now that she knows she’s still considered Catholic, she’s angry. She wonders whether she can join some class-action defection lawsuit. Dismissing someone who is unhappy to be tied to your organization’s criminal history just seems stunningly arrogant, she said. “How many others are dealing with this?” she asked. “If people heard they were ‘still Catholic,’ how many of them would be outraged?”
The article said there could be millions "counted" as Catholic who really are not.
The problem I see with having no resignation process is that it is the NUMBERS that empower the Catholic Church. It is their strength in politics to have numbers high enough that they get their way, whatever the source of the data. It is how they maintain power.
I admire the people who want some official way to NOT GET COUNTED as Catholic. Those people are the ones I do not see as complicit in enabling the Catholic Church to protect priests, suppress rights for women and gays,etc.
As I have said before, Mormons are amateurs compared to Catholics in every way. Catholics who complain about the exit process for Mormons seem somewhat hypocritical to me. It's not about the pestering. It's about the power they give to the religion.
They estimate the number of members based on various factors, but there is still no central database of individual members. There is nothing saying that Combs is a counted member. Her complaint is baseless.
You are counted as a.Catholic if you show him up mass on a semi regular basis. As I understand it , they don't count everyone who was ever baptized. They also.accept.some other.baptisms and some other churches accept Catholic baptism.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2019 01:31PM by bona dea.
bona dea Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You are counted as a.Catholic if you show him up > mass on a semi regular basis. As I understand it , > they don't count everyone who was ever baptized. > They also.accept.some other.baptisms and some > other churches accept Catholic baptism.
saucie Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > bona dea Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > You are counted as a.Catholic if you show him > up > > mass on a semi regular basis. As I understand it > , > > they don't count everyone who was ever > baptized. > > They also.accept.some other.baptisms and some > > other churches accept Catholic baptism. > > > Where does it say that?
Which part? That one is counted? or accepting some other baptisms?
It's all hocus pocus. Leaving a church and not letting them tell you what to do is simply taking your power back. Fortunately we don't have inquisitions anymore.
I was baptized but never went through confirmation, which is something most Catholics go through in their teenage years. It felt like a big rebellious thing on my part at the time.
It's sort of like the next step after baptism or really the first step you actually make in the church with conscious decision (since they do infant baptism.) I'm not sure what "official" difference confirmation makes, although it's a necessary step if you plan on taking holy orders at some point.
The RC church has an "Adult Rite of Initiation" in which prospects take some classes and go through adult baptism and then confirmation.
Another thing I've noticed is that in Eastern Orthodox churches, you can't take the communion (sacrament, in LDS vocabulary) unless you're baptized. Orthodox churches usually have two separate baskets of bread by the altar, one blessed (for baptized people) and one that's not blessed, just ordinary bread, for unbaptized people who want to share in the service.
Most Catholic churches don't make this distinction. Technically you're supposed to have gone to confession prior to accepting communion (sacrament) but this isn't really enforced as much these days.
Read comments with interest, and wonder if fundamentally:
- Catholics see us as people with inherent individual worth; hence less intrusiveness; - Mormons see us as mere resources to be exploited; hence the preoccupation with numbers.
For all the faults, Catholics build schools, universities, non-profit hospitals, and are engaged globally in truly humanitarian endeavors - all which seek to better the human condition. Mormons build shopping malls.
Catholics are universally accepting regardless of origin or skin color (heck, the very word "catholic" comes from the Greek word for universal). Mormons have always been, and are still, very exclusive: "God's chosen people."
>>Catholics are universally accepting regardless of origin or skin color
Not in their gender treatment. They have a male priesthood. Their view of women is mainly to be reproductive vessels. It's not any better than Mormonism in that regard. They have power and influence to keep women "in their place" which is alarming considering the devout Catholic SUPREMES, for example.
Over population and suppression of women is not exactly my idea of improving the human condition.
Exactly. Universally accepting except for slightly more than half of humanity, which they consider "less than".
Their take on "except a man be born of the water and the spirit..." is that natural birth is being born of the water, which causes a baby to be brought into this fallen world, cursed with original sin, and being born of the spirit is baptism, which is of course done by a male priest who is celibate, and therefor not sullied by the sin of sex that icky girls (I use the term deliberately) brought into the world.
It's the priestly (male) birth of baptism that makes a baby eligible to return to God.
misogynistic much?
(awaiting bona dea's correction of my no doubt informal and imprecise analysis of Catholic pop theology. :)
Exactly. I grew up Catholic. My mother almost died after miscarriage number five. She was advised by her doctor to have a hysterectomy. A priest came to her hospital room the night before surgery and told her she was sinning by having the procedure and would go to hell. He told her it would be better if she were to die. The institution is definitely biased against women.
I do remember hearing that if you were catholic and got baptized into another faith, you could get excommunicated. Don’t know if it’s for real.
>>I do remember hearing that if you were catholic and got baptized into another faith, you could get excommunicated. Don’t know if it’s for real.
Well, a couple of things there. As I pointed out down thread, it's not a specifically Catholic baptism, although it takes place in a Catholic church. It's a Christian baptism that is also considered valid by the majority of the mainstream Protestant churches that accept the triune God. So people who were baptized into the Catholic church can and do join other churches at a later time without consequence. And vice-versa.
Second, excommunication is a rare thing in the Catholic church. It is generally used only for those religious who have taken special vows (priests, nuns, etc.) Most Catholics will go through life without personally knowing a single person who has been excommunicated.
summer Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > >>I do remember hearing that if you were catholic > and got baptized into another faith, you could get > excommunicated. Don’t know if it’s for real. > > Well, a couple of things there. As I pointed out > down thread, it's not a specifically Catholic > baptism, although it takes place in a Catholic > church. It's a Christian baptism that is also > considered valid by the majority of the mainstream > Protestant churches that accept the triune God. So > people who were baptized into the Catholic church > can and do join other churches at a later time > without consequence. And vice-versa. > > Second, excommunication is a rare thing in the > Catholic church. It is generally used only for > those religious who have taken special vows > (priests, nuns, etc.) Most Catholics will go > through life without personally knowing a single > person who has been excommunicated.
And to point out there is a difference in what it means to be excommunicated in Mormonism (which means you are no longer a member in their eyes) and excommunicated in Catholicism (which means you are no longer in communion, but still a member)
When my husband was growing up in Peru, a priest from Ireland came to their town to take over duties from the previous priest. He was responsible for 15 towns. There was low attendance except for Easter and Christmas. No one had to resign or jump through any hoops, but he was so disgusted because no one wanted to attend Sunday’s, so before he left, he “cursed” the towns, and said they would never progress. Years later, there was some progress when they were finally able to get electricity. :)
valkyriequeen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > When my husband was growing up in Peru, a priest > from Ireland came to their town to take over > duties from the previous priest. He was > responsible for 15 towns. There was low > attendance except for Easter and Christmas. No one > had to resign or jump through any hoops, but he > was so disgusted because no one wanted to attend > Sunday’s, so before he left, he “cursed” the > towns, and said they would never progress. Years > later, there was some progress when they were > finally able to get electricity. :)
What a nice guy (not!) Oh cursed pride got him in the end.
LOL. I bet there are a good many towns that have been cursed by 21 year old "Elders" when the MP pulled the missionaries out of the town because nobody there was interested in their product. The "cursing" just never became part of local lore because none of the local residents cared at all what the missionaries did.
They did it because DH told them to leave our yard and the private street we own and to never come back.
Mormons might think they were justified. But actually mormons have been told for decades to stay away and there's a police order to that affect on file at the department, the bishop's office, the SP, and the MP.
Cheryl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They did it because DH told them to leave our yard > and the private street we own and to never come > back. > > Mormons might think they were justified. But > actually mormons have been told for decades to > stay away and there's a police order to that > affect on file at the department, the bishop's > office, the SP, and the MP. > > But mormons feel entitled which isn't my problem. =======================================
Hope you two didn't laugh uproariously and (between tears of laughter) tell them -- "you know, if you click your magic heals together three times and repeat: 'there's no place like home . . . there's no place like home . . ."
I would have been besides myself with laughter at this doozy. Good one. Thanks.
But the Catholic Church can excommunicate people right? So I wonder why you can’t formally resign. Sure, you can leave and they won’t bother you so it’s not so bad. If I were a catholic I’d be asking ‘how do I get excommunicated’ or ‘can you excommunicate me by my request’ - I’m sensing the answer would be no, which I wouldn’t be thrilled about.
lj12 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But the Catholic Church can excommunicate people > right? So I wonder why you can’t formally > resign. Sure, you can leave and they won’t > bother you so it’s not so bad. If I were a > catholic I’d be asking ‘how do I get > excommunicated’ or ‘can you excommunicate me > by my request’ - I’m sensing the answer would > be no, which I wouldn’t be thrilled about.
Excommunionation in Catholicism doesn't stop one from being Catholic, unlike Mormonism. It simply means you are not in communion with the church, But you are still a member
It's not like there is a central database of names somewhere. If you are not on the roll of your local parish, then you are not an active member and you are completely off the church's radar. No one would even begin to know how to track you down. And that's assuming that they would even want to do so. They don't, because Catholics don't think that way.
You can renounce your own baptism if you wish. You don't need the church's permission to do that. They just believe that as an institution, they don't have the right to take that away from you.
They will also take you off the parish list after a certain period of inactivity. I suppose you could request it if you wish.As for getting exed, you practically have to be in a position of authority and do something heretical. Most Catholics aren't going to get exed regardless of what they do.
My mother had me christened in the Catholic Church, but I was never taken to a Catholic church service.
Later, I was baptized in the Mormon Church and then eventually resigned.
When I resigned from the Mormon Church, I looked into having my Catholic christening cancelled as well. But they basically said that it's an historic event and you can't undo history.
If I never showed up at my parish again, they wouldn’t even notice. Eventually, without me doing anything, I would be dropped from the parish. Every so often they send out cards to keep your name on the parish register, and if you don’t send it back you are no longer a member of the parish.
It should also be noted that it is not specifically a Catholic baptism, although it was done in a Catholic church. It is a Christian baptism that is good for the majority of churches that believe in the triune God. That baptism would be considered valid in the majority of the mainstream Protestant churches.
And again, if you want to renounce it on your own, then fine. No one is really going to care. It's not like anyone is going to chase after you and insist that you owe them something because a priest or minister once dunked you or sprinkled water over your forehead.
I have long considered it a controlling aspect of Mormonism that the church feels it can administer baptism, and then take it away. It can administer it a second or third time, and take those away as well. And it does this with enough frequency that probably most members know of at least one person who has been excommunicated.
My husband was born and raised Catholic, to a sincerely devout Catholic mother, and a Catholic father.
When the reforms of Vatican II went into effect at the local parish level, my husband and his mother (his father was deceased by then) were at Sunday Mass. The priest explained the new reforms as they applied to the way Mass was going to be conducted in the future--which included the worshippers singing as a group.
My husband and his mother listened carefully to the changes as they were explained by the priest, looked at each other, and simultaneously got up from the benches and walked out.
For them, congregational singing was a step WAY too far for either one of them to take.
After that....nothing happened. No one ever contacted them, no one showed up at their door, no one ever sent a letter or made a phone call....nothing.
Neither ever went back (with the single exception of one Catholic funeral, several years later, because of who the deceased "was" to them).
They walked out of church that morning and (effectively) never went back, and that was the end of countless generations of Catholic ancestry in their overwhelmingly Irish-descended family.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2019 09:35PM by Tevai.
Tevai, a lot of Catholics of my parents' generation were very upset for years by the changes initiated by Vatican II. I remember one of the biggest changes which was the switchover from the Latin mass to mass being conducted in the local native language. For the first time, I fully understood what was going on during a church service.
Another change which happened a few years later was switching the position of the priest around so that instead of him celebrating the mass turned away from the congregation, he was now facing the congregation.
In the past, I heard similar stories of how Catholics were offended by the language change (mostly: because it didn't seem as reverent/"spiritual" anymore), and the change in the direction the priest faced during Mass (I think for the same reason).
That was a tough time for many Catholics because it upended what they had grown to know from inside their bone marrow: The "proper" way Mass is conducted.
is that they can assert any belief and doctrine that they want.
The LSD Church can just as easily assert that nobody can resign from the church. What's to stop them?
There are legal limitations on what they can do to enforce their beliefs and doctrines with regard to unwilling subjects.
But you can't force a religious organization to change its doctrine because you don't like it.
"I resign" "You can't resign" "Yes I can" "No, you can't" "Yes I can" "No, you can't. The effects of your baptism in the metaphysical realm cannot be reversed!" "Yes they can!" "No they can't!"
They can't force you to go to meetings and pay them money (at least in most civilized countries). But you can't force a religious organization to renounce an abstract assertion that they claim as doctrine and you can't force them to deny what they hold to be metaphysical truths or effects that apply in a spiritual realm.
"You can't go to the Celestial Kingdom" "Yes I can" "No, you can't"
At the end of the day, arguing with an organized religion about their unenforceable rules and claims about metaphysical/spirit world doctrines is like having an imaginary tea party with a little girl and arguing with her about the flavor of the invisible tea in the toy teacup you're pretending to drink out of.
"It has a hint of orange flavor" "No it doesn't" "Yes it does!" "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!" "I hate you!" "It still has no hint of orange flavor"
I think this is being looked at from a Mormon perspective ie. Baptism = membership.
There isn't such a thing in Catholicism.
Baptism is a Christian sacrament valid among many churches that hold the trinitarian definition of God.
You can't renounce your baptism because it isn't theirs to take away. It's the gateway to the path. The course you take after that is for you to decide.
Your name is kept on parish rolls and removed after a period of inactivity. No stasi like central database.
When we see statistic that, say, a country is 60% Catholic, where do they get the information? Is there any indication that people like in the article who want to be disassociated with the religion are counted or not? I suspect it is a birth thing and not a talley of current attendees. It seems like it would be tedious to compile this from each dicoese? It's not like they submit a count of people to a headquarters like with Mormonism, correct?
True, we need to recognize things like excommunication and leaving are not like Mormonism. However, just because Catholics can drop off the radar without any communication from either side doesn't demonstrate to me how the desire to not be counted could be accommodated to stop enabling the religion. Again, it is the numbers that maintain power and influence over the rest of us.
I hope current attendance is being used but if the concept stands that you are always Catholic, I still suspect they are getting counted in general surveys for religious affiliation.
I think it depends on how the information is being obtained, i.e. is it by survey, numbers of people on the parish roll, etc. Lots of people will say that they are Catholic who rarely or never show up at church. My mom from mid-life on was one of those people.
Catholics are not counted as such by the church if they are not on a parish register. However they are always welcome to attend church and to register with a parish if they so desire.
TigerTom2 made a good point above that to Mormons, baptism equals membership, but it doesn't work in the same way in the Catholic church. In Catholicism, membership is formally counted when you are on a parish register. Baptism is a sacrament, similar to taking communion.
Think about how the numbers in Mormonism would be different if the church only counted people who voluntarily registered with their local ward.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2019 01:35PM by summer.
When I was baptized Catholic several years ago, nobody asked me to officially join the parish. I spent several weeks without being listed on their rolls before I joined the parish. Baptism and confirmation were not looked upon as automatically making me a member of the local parish, and I was not counted as a member anywhere.