I am responding to comments made by Amyjo on janeeliot's thread on the topic of circumcision:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2247719,2247719#msg-2247719

(I have started this new thread to avoid going so far off topic on the other thread).


Amyjo says, in part:

"This is the first thread I have even begun discussing circumcision because I didn't on the ones that hijacked my prior thread on a different subject matter entirely just to attack my religion for being Jewish."

"I'm here to discuss ex-Moism and to unite in our reasons for leaving the Morg. Not to persecute the Jews or those who circumcise their newborn infant male children."


Amyjo: Your thread was not "hijacked", as I've already discussed, with good intent, on another thread, but I guess you're going to continue making that claim. Perhaps you actually believe it.

Even more so, it is wildly inaccurate to claim that you were attacked for being Jewish or that anybody was "persecuting the Jews".

That is an appalling thing to say and has no basis in reality.

Did you report such egregious rule-breaking posting behaviour as that which you describe? If not, why not?

Anti-Semitism, if it occurs, gets gone from here in a NY minute. If it is reported, or otherwise noticed by mods. Again I ask, did you report it? I think not, as many of the posts which you claim are attacking in nature and/or are anti-Semitic still stand. (So they were either not reported, not seen by Admin or were deemed acceptable).



You also said:

"Tell that to some of the atheist zealots who just want to argue every chance they get against any custom or observance having to do with any type of religious observance they get a chance."

1. Arguing is also not permitted here. There is certainly disagreement and that is allowed, if kept within the bounds of civility.

2. Referring to non-religious posters as "atheist zealots" is offensive. You would be the first to complain loudly if anyone made a similar comment about people of faith. (Also, obviously, some of the responses to you were made by people who are religious so, by simple definition, they are not "atheist zealots").


I don't want to argue interminably with you, or at all. But I cannot let your false claims stand. You were NOT discriminated against or or attacked or persecuted for any reason, especially not regarding your Jewish faith.

If you feel that is the case, please report it to RfM Administration and let them survey the posts in question. If it is determined that your claim is unfounded (which will be obvious if the posts are not removed) then PLEASE do not continue to make such claims. If you choose not to report any posts for these reasons, then you have no basis for continuing to make such claims.

In my view, NOBODY here posted anything remotely anti-Semitic to you or about you.

It is not honest to claim that differences of opinion here between you and other posters is "persecution" merely because you are Jewish.

Please don't.

For one thing, it diminishes the real persecution faced by not only your people but others all over the world throughout the history of humankind who have suffered such atrocity.

For another, it is an offence against this board and its posters because it is a terrible claim to make and also is untrue.

If you can prove otherwise, please do so.

If not, please do not continue to make such claims. It is as baseless and inaccurate as if I were to say that your recent fierce disagreements with me were based on the fact of me being non-Jewish. Can you see how ridiculous such a claim would be? Unless that is the case. Which I'm going to take a wild guess it is not.

People who disagree with your opinions are not "zealots". They are just people who disagree with your opinions.

Disagreement is permitted here. That is part of the beauty of the place. It is not zealotry to hold different views from those of others. How one presents their views is another story.

Why would you say such a thing as that our mere disagreement is evidence of anti-Semitism? If you honestly believe that, then you must feel yourself under constant attack. Because where can you go where everybody walks in lock-step? Maybe some religious circles where all are expected to think and act in uniformity? If that is what you are expecting at RfM you are doomed to massive disappointment.

Bottom Line: False claims of anti-Semitism are harmful in ways that should be obvious. Why do it?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2019 09:14AM by Nightingale.

Antisemitism is something that is complex. And I agree with Nightengale that I've never seen any on this board. The horrors of the 2nd WW are hard to comprehend in this day and age. From reading Thomas Sowells book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" he goes over the history of the Jews and for some odd reason everywhere they went they rose out of poverty within a generation and were hated almost instantly. They took on work that others didn't want to do, such as selling clothes door to door. Immigrant Jews and the Lebanese have a history of getting ahead by creating family businesses and disregarding child work laws. While European nationals were enjoying their days off, Jewish children were working 14 hour days producing and selling stuff. Naturally they got ahead of the old time residents quickly. Jews also had a natural tendency towards literacy because they all were suppose to read the Torah. Slavic (Eastern) Europe and Russia was almost 90% illiterate almost into the 20th century.

But the antisemitism is still bubbling in our current culture. If we look at CEOs of large American businesses, there are lots of Jews. And they have great influence in Politics. There still is resentment from the Far Right.

But as for a religion, I have a hard time taking them seriously. Jews can even not believe in Jehovah and still be Jews. Their ideas are all over the place, they aren't grounded in some common belief and it affects all aspects of their lives. As an example look at their architectural masterpieces found in modern Israel. They are eye-sores, No body looks to the Jews for Aesthetic ideas. They aren't grounded in any kind of Classicism. The Jews are like a big beautiful ship (better than the others) but without a rudder.

Nightingale,

Targeting me like you do persistently with your continual attacks is a form of passive aggressive persecution, whether you want to admit or not.

I do not go after you or your posts. As I've told you before I do not have time to engage with your nonsensical rantings and patronizing of your troupe your in clique with here on RfM.

Bona dea was correct in calling you out on that, and I stand with her in solidarity that you are simply taking sides with the atheists who have been singling me out for my beliefs as a Jew, and as a believer in God.

You are trying to whitewash what the haters have been doing to me because you're in step with them.

Perhaps you can answer my question as to why you are so OBSESSED with me all of a sudden? Your taking to making posts directing at me with your vitriol, (and I mean vitriol because you are attempting to undermine me and defame me while bolstering your cronies who have been targeting me for my religious beliefs and things I share on RfM with other like minded believers. Matter of fact is I am NOT the only believer here.

Who are YOU to SAY someone else isn't being persecuted when they FEEL like they ARE?

Do you know what that even feels like? You can't begin to understand unless you are pointing fingers back at yourself, Ms Nightygale.

So please stop with your OBSESSION over ME. I am TIRED of your RANTING and RAVING. I really do not have time or INCLINATION for your unwanted ATTENTION. REALLY.

Go back to your little inner circle where you can patronize each other and slap each other on the back for your job "well done" of going after Amyjo another day.

But leave me alone, please. My friends are not your friends here. And you are not my friend. Please just GO AWAY.

If you were really a practicing CHRISTIAN you would.

Please stop directing entire threads at me because I really do not wish to engage with you.

Your Obsessive Compulsiveness is getting the better of you, and I wish you would get help for it. But please stop making me the target of your obsessiveness!

Maybe take up a new hobby? Take a walk. Do something else anything but stop obsessing over me.

"Who are YOU to SAY someone else isn't being persecuted when they FEEL like they ARE?"

Objectivity. Lots of people can look at a situation dispassionately and decide if persecution is happening or not. It's nothing to do with feelings.

Charges of anti-semitism are serious and when misapplied do a disservice and are as damaging as the anti-semitism itself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2019 10:42AM by Devoted Exmo.

Thank you, Devoted Exmo. That's exactly it. I was surprised and a little alarmed to see someone pulling out the "persecution" card. My reaction was to stick up for RfM, thinking if we reviewed its purpose and guidelines that would provide some useful information.

It is a very unfortunate, and dishonest, tactic to cry persecution rather than engaging in honest debate.

I have composed exactly TWO threads on this topic, Amyjo. So don't exaggerate.

It is rich that you say I am vitriolic.

You complain about other posters, me included, and yet you can write the words you have just directed at me.

FYI, I am not a member of a "troupe". I do not know the other posters you mention. We do not communicate with each other off board. There is no gang.

In all the words I have used in these two threads, only since you started claiming religious persecution here, I have never directed a personal disparaging remark against you.

Too bad you seem unable to communicate in the same spirit.

I am not anti-Semitic. I am not an atheist. I am not part of a gang whose sole purpose is to persecute Amyjo.

So maybe it's you who needs to "take a walk".

I'm glad you enjoy RfM. I am not such a fan of your method of exchanging views.

AJ: "Who are YOU to SAY someone else isn't being persecuted when they FEEL like they ARE?"

OK, one more thing (there's always one more thing!)

People disagreeing with you is not persecution, Amyjo.

And you making it about you being Jewish - that is what started these exchanges. I thought it was an extraordinary misrepresentation of the interactions you referenced.

I'm not questioning how you feel. But saying it does not seem to reflect the reality of the situation. Can you at least think about that?

Amyjo also stated (on thread by janeliot re circumcision):

"It is just more hyperbole from the anti-Semites and religion haters on this board to attack any form of religious observance including a Jewish rite."

1. It is completely egregious to refer to regular RfM posters as "anti-Semites" for mere disagreement about a controversial subject.

2. It is beyond the pale to call atheists/non-believers "religion haters". At base, the difference between people of declared faith and those who adhere to no religion is that some believe in the existence of God and some do not. To lump every person who disavows belief in God into a humungous group of "religion haters" is incorrect and crass and often meant to be exceptionally disparaging.

3. Circumcision is common to many. It is not exclusively a "Jewish rite". As Tevai and others pointed out, Christians (and others) also circumcise their male babies. Therefore, discussion of the pros and cons of circumcision, in the light of new medical thought and ethical considerations, is not a subject exclusive to Jewish people.

4. This board is SET UP for the UNIQUE PURPOSE of offering information and support to people who have left Mormonism and those who are questioning their Mormon faith. That is the main raison d'etre for RfM. Others are welcome but the primary focus is the Mormon religion and those who have been associated with it or who have some interest in it. It is helpful to people of other faiths, or previous beliefs, in that there are obvious parallels within/between religions.

It is expected that many posters have no love for the Mormon Church. There are various understandable reasons why people turn away from religious belief, some related to their time as Mormons or their associations with Mormons and some relating to negative experiences people have had with other faiths. There are commonalities and many welcome the support and information they receive here free and gratis. So, for one, it's kind of ungracious to complain about a free board that is set up to help people which so many turn to and receive the help and information they desire.

If people are angry about their negative church experiences, that is a common and understandable reaction. If people are totally turned off religion, ditto. So to refer to any of them as "religion haters" is insulting but also denigrating of their experiences, needs, intellectual capacity and useful contributions to this board.

People take a lot of time and effort and care in sharing their experiences, feelings, thoughts. Dismissing them outright as "haters", when they are adhering to the very purpose of RfM (i.e. expressing themselves about their issues with Mormonism and/or other faiths, discussing various useful aspects of religion in general, which is helpful to those seeking answers and offering support to those in need of it) is as inaccurate, insulting and unacceptable as are any comments that are truly anti-Semitic (not those you insist are such merely due to differences of opinion).

One other little nit-picky thing: Name-calling is not allowed here. Can you see any similarity between truly anti-Semitic comments and attitudes and someone lumping groups of posters here together and labelling them "haters" and "zealots" as you have done? Especially when they are doing no more than engaging in the very types of discussions for which RfM is intended (i.e. doing nothing wrong)? And when the only purpose is to attempt to stifle their voices instead of engaging in respectful and honest dialogue?

To be clear: I am not singling you out and asking some tough questions (that I hope can generate some insight) because you are Jewish, as you seem to think, in general, of late. Rather, it is entirely because of your own words, as an RfM poster, that are at best inaccurate, but worse, denigrating and derogatory to other posters, and to the board.

RfMers don't deserve that.

Dear administration,

I've reported this topic already, but now I will do it on this thread.

I have been persecuted by some atheists here as a Jew, whether Nightingale believes it or not. And as a believer.

Why she is singling me out to make an entire thread on me as her subject matter now going on two days and two threads in a row is beyond me.

But I ask you as moderators to please put a stop to it. I am sick and tired of her obsessing over me.

If this isn't blatant persecution I don't know what is.

I've said I've felt persecuted by some atheists here, why do I need to prove that or not? Their posts speak for themselves.

I don't need to defend myself to Nightingale, nor should I have to.

Persecution doesn't need defending when someone feels under attack for any reason.

Please mods, step up to the plate here and remove this thread because I do not wish to engage with Nightingale on this matter or any other matter concerning her obsession with me.

Thank you for understanding.

AJ

1. I am not obsessed with you.

2. There is a simple solution if you don't wish to engage: Step away. You are under no obligation to respond.

If you could stop getting all uptight about me and think about the main points, which are to observe RfM guidelines and to accept that people have differences of opinion and that is NOT anti-Semitism nor is it persecution, that may be quite constructive.

Rather than responding peacefully and accurately, calling for someone's honest opinion to be expunged smacks of the "persecution" that you claim is directed at you. I just got tired of you making unfounded accusations against posters and the board and seeming to misunderstand its very purpose. That is not an obsession. It is a reaction to something someone posted - the very essence of how RfM works. I have tried to be respectful in my comments, Amyjo. I see you have not even given a thought to doing the same. You have made a lot of negative remarks about me that I didn't even respond to, trying to keep to the basics. And yet you claim to be persecuted.

You are right about one thing. This is a TOTAL and COMPLETE waste of valuable time.

But. If you cry persecution or anti-Semitism again, I will likely speak out. Again. It's what we do here in the face of inaccuracies. As long as one does not engage in name-calling and other disrespectful and non-supportive behaviour it is permitted to engage with another in order to discuss topics related to RfM.

If you want to put me on ignore, go ahead.

Still, I wish you well in your pursuits.

And no, I am not obsessed or stalking or anti or a persecutor. Just to make that clear. If you feel that way, I am sorry for you.

You said Shalom to me the other day. Somehow it doesn't seem that you really meant it.

I think they want you to send it to them and not post it here.

She did both, EB. So I think they get the message.

I'll be sorry if I get nuked. However, I wanted to say my piece. I think it's important not to speak inaccuracies here. And nowhere in the board guidelines does it say that non-religious posters are fair game to be denigrated as hateful or gangs or antis (except anti-Mormon; that is a point of honour for some).

And this whole thing started because I thought AJ called me an atheist. I just wanted to make it clear that I am not. But that to refer to non-believers as "hateful atheists" and to lump me into that category was a step too far and I had to answer. And so we find ourselves here.

Two threads to discuss these matters though, does not an obsession make! If it did, I'd say we're all obsessed with Mormonism. When the opposite is true - we want it out of our lives.

However, the time sink...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2019 11:08AM by Nightingale.

It can hardly be "anti-Semitism" to question, or criticize, a decision someone made when, and because, she was a Mormon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2019 11:10AM by Lot's Wife.

But maybe AJ's point is that it is because she's Jewish? I'm not sure.

I'm actually trying to understand, not to persecute or denigrate.

We are questioning her decisions (and those of a lot of us and our parents, probably most) when she was a Mormon. She explicitly says circumcision is a practice employed by 50% of Westerners, the vast majority of whom are Christian since there are only about 15 million (?) Jews in the world. So when it suits her purpose, the rite is not about Judaism.

"Persecution" is what she calls disagreement just as another poster in the previous thread dubbed failure to endorse her views "bad behavior." These words are an attempt to move beyond logical discussion and dismiss people with ad hominems. "Admins, please kill this thread because my critics are anti-Semites."

Unfair, but but at least transparently so.

"And this whole thing started because I thought AJ called me an atheist. I just wanted to make it clear that I am not. But that to refer to non-believers as "hateful atheists" and to lump me into that category was a step too far and I had to answer. And so we find ourselves here."

I find her memory is a huge problem for her. She probably doesn't even track things about people unless they come into her radar.

You and I aren't as important to her as others I think. She paints with too broad a brush and so catches people like us in getting her strokes.

Sorry you got called both atheist and anti-Semitic. If she knew you she wouldn't have but like you said we just don't know.

Can't change the mind of that one I think. And it is a fool's errand to try.

Amyjo,

I don't believe that you're being attacked here, but we certainly don't want you feeling that way. This is a place designed for healing, not for increased anxiety.

Why don't you take a sabbatical from the site for a while to give your feelings a chance to settle. No matter what is happening here, it can't hurt you if you don't post or read it.

Please send me e-mail in a few weeks (say, after Labor Day) and let me know how you are feeling. We can discuss how the sabbatical went and if you're ready to come back and post again.

Thanks,

CZ (admin)
concrete.zipper@gmail.com

In a previous thread, Susan I/S (a longtime moderator here) said that there are no sacred cows on RFM. I think it's important to understand that believers are not in a specially protected class. Nor or Athiest, or agnostics.

On RFM, one has to defend ones ideas on their merits.

Feeling that you are persecuted is a very mormon way of thinking. Objectively, AJ, I don't think you are. People disagreeing with you is not persecution, just as mormons are not persecuted when people tell them they are weird. I don't share all my opinions here but I can tell you that some of them are trampled on daily by many people here, but that's their right, not persecution. Of course I think I'm right and they think they are, that's why we hold the opinions we do. We don't need to agree on everything. Most of my close friends don't agree with me on everything, either. Here on RfM, however, we can agree about mormonism: it's a crock.

I'm with Nightingale on this, as on many things - but not on all (religious faith being the main example) but it doesn't matter because I can appreciate her general wisdom and conciliatory tone. She knows we don't agree on everything too but, like me, she can respect others' opinions and go beyond them to find common ground (the lovely French expression is 'un terrain d'entente'). She doesn't preach. You Amyjo sometimes do. Those are not your best posts and, to be honest, I tend to skip over them because they do not discuss our common ground.

Tom in Paris