Some words of caution to those of you who leave Mormonism and want to try alcohol. Don't do it.

A once TBM turned exmo friend of mine recently died from alcoholism. I can't get over it.

He was from my hometown and a young convert like me. When he was baptized he was almost a fanatical Mormon. He went on a mission and then married in the temple. He had two beautiful children and after several years, divorced his wife and left the Mormon church.

After leaving the Mormon church when he was in his early 30s he wanted to catch up on all he missed, I guess, and started drinking.

Unfortunately he became an alcoholic, a disease that affects approximately 8 million people in the U.S.

He was a brilliant man and gifted at everything he did. Now he is dead. It seems he hit rock bottom and drank his troubles away. Along with his children and other family members he left many grieving friends behind.

Please think carefully before you take your first drink of alcohol after leaving the Mormon church. You may be one of those people who just can't stop. Best not to start.

drink a lot--the ones who went inactive in their teens.

I left the church when I was about 38. I had my first alcohol at age 47. I just had a drink tonight. I might have a drink once in 6 months. Everyone thought I'd be an alcoholic if I ever started drinking, but it isn't that "important" to me, but then it has never done anything for me. No buzz, no calming feeling. I seem to have a high tolerance.

My son did become an alcoholic and drug addict, but that was more out of his divorce and he is off all drugs except marijuana and is free of alcohol, too.

I don't smoke and I rarely drink. I guess I'm not a very good exmo.

Same here. I don’t smoke. I have 2-3 drinks a month. My only bad health habits started when I was a TBM, and none of them violated the WoW.

I love a good drink, but even I think that an exmo should take it slow if they decide to drink. Moderation is the key to enjoying alcohol. Don't try to make up for years of living the WOW in a few nights; you'll get sick, increase the odds of becoming an alcoholic, and just look like an imbecile. If an exmo does decide to drink, start slow and stay slow.

If someone isn't sure that they can drink in moderation (family history of alcoholism, for example) or just doesn't see the appeal of drinking, there is nothing wrong with being a teetotaler*.






*Unless it's the kind of teetotaler who's judgmental and condescending to people who do drink. Please don't be this kind of teetotaler.

I went back to drinking when I left. I had some reservations because my first ex is an alcoholic. In fact I initially gave it up before I even started investigating mormonism, for that reason. But many slightly drunken and somewhat fun nights later (10 years) I am not an alcoholic. I suppose it’s a risk that you may have this disease, but I was willing to risk it. Drink and be merry for tomorrow ye may die. Can’t cope with hangovers now I’m older but still love a glass of red with a meal. Happy days.

Yes, SOME people suffer from alcoholism. MOST do not. I don't like to see alcohol demonized simply due to the few. It's like suggesting that no one should ever drive because SOME people will get into a severe car crash. As with any other adult activity, it's about managing risk. It can fairly be said that among those who wish to give alcohol a try, moderation is key.

Practicing TBMs often tend to call anyone who drinks an "alcoholic." This is an abuse of the term. Nevermos who imbibe can usually tell you who the problem drinkers are.

Alcoholism runs in families. Those with a family history need to be especially cautious.

Are you sure there are only a few who suffer from alcoholism? I know many. Some in my family. My Grandpa caused a lot of misery with his alcoholism. I think it is much more common than you realize.

I think Mormons who leave the church and start drinking need to be cautious. The man I referred to was incredibly intelligent and a dedicated athlete. He's the last person I'd imagine becoming an alcoholic. That is why his death is so shocking to me and why I am expressing my concern.

I’m not sure being careful would make that much difference if you really are destined to becoming an alcoholic due to something genetic, but that’s a whole other discussion. Personally I wouldn’t not drink at all just avoid the possibility, and this is from someone who has suffered greatly at the hands of an alcoholic. My uncle was also an alcoholic. But I don’t know THAT many alcoholics though. It can ruin people’s lives but so can a lot of other things. I’m not willing to play things that safe due to fear, no matter how common it is. I’d never do anything with that mindset.

>>I think it is much more common than you realize.

You cited a figure of 8 million in the U.S. -- that would be out of a total population of about 325 million. I have no idea if the 8 million is a valid figure, but by your own statistics, no, it's not that common. And yes, of course I know some alcoholics. Again, it's a few people out of the many of my acquaintance who drink responsibly.

My point remains -- we don't ban driving because a few people are risky drivers who get into severe accidents. Part of being an adult is managing risk.There is no question that some people shouldn't drink. But IMO to extend that to everyone is a concept that overreaches.

First of all, no where in my post did I suggest banning alcohol. I'm just warning exmos who are new to alcohol. I don't know why you are taking offense at that. For cripes sakes, my friend just died and I don't want to see it happening to anyone else.

I found the 8 million number in a google search. I'm not sure if it is the number of Americans who have admitted to having a problem and are being treated, or an assumed number of those who most likely have a problem but won't admit. It is still a large number.

Driving is not comparable to drinking to the point of intoxication, so there is really no comparison. Driving while drunk is illegal for obvious reasons, and there are already restrictions in place for that. A person with multiple DUIs can have their driver license revoked, so for them driving an automobile is no longer an option; they have been banned from driving.

Again, I'm not suggesting banning anything, just warning. It's a valid warning. I would hope parents have discussions with their children about responsible drinking. Children growing up in the Mormon church don't typically have that discussion with their parents. When they're in their 30s and start drinking for the first time, no one sits down with them and tells them to drink responsibly. You'd think it would be common sense but apparently it is not.

In your OP, you told exmos, "Don't do it" and "Best not to start." If that's not a suggested ban, I don't know what is.

I used driving a car as a simile. I am comparing two adult activities that carry both risks and benefits. But I'll bet that most people caught that.

Giving advise is not the same as banning something. I think you are reaching.

It seemed to me that you were giving *everyone* this advice -- "Don't do it" and "Best not to start." How about instead, realize that some or a few people can get into serious trouble with alcohol, so ask people who are knowledgeable about alcohol to keep an eye on you as you begin drinking? Or, establish reasonable limits for yourself in terms of how much alcohol you will consume (as many do?)

If people truly do not wish to drink, or have a family history of alcohol abuse, I understand if they don't care to start. But I have no use for blanket prohibitions or scare tactics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2019 06:04AM by summer.

I don't have a problem with my OP. When a good friend dies from alcoholism, and that friend was a former TBM who didn't start drinking till his 30s, I think it is important to warn others, especially members of this board who have recently left Mormonism.

I personally feel it's not a good idea to start drinking, but I obviously don't have the power to ban alcohol or anything else. Readers will do what they will do; I have no control over their behavior.

If one potential alcoholic decides to not drink, based on my post, I will be very happy. If a person who would drink responsibly decides not to drink based on my advise, I will also be happy. I don't think there is anything negative about not drinking, but plenty of potential problems caused by drinking. Here are some stats. They're facts, not "scare tactics."

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

I think summer has problems with the words "don't do it" and "best not to start". Those words alone make it sound like you are doing more than giving a suggestion.

Im sorry for your friend. I may have been in his place at one point. I totally understand why you want to caution people. I wish I had learned how to drink moderately. Having been TBM, I thought the whole point of drinking was to get rip roaring drunk. I didn't realize people only had a glass at dinner, or a drink or two occasionally.

"He was from my hometown and a young convert like me. When he was baptized he was almost a fanatical Mormon."

Read that 2nd statement. Your friend had an addictive personality...It sounds like he always needed something to grasp onto, to take hold, and guide him. I am sorry that since he no longer had mormonism to hold to, he then chose alcohol to do the same thing..

Well reasoned!!

Rule of thumb... if you drink and it gets you excited/wired than best to stay away... if it makes you tired than you are okay!

Thank you for speaking up. I have never taken up drink but I'm really glad I haven't.

Many LDS have ancestors who joined the church precisely due to alcohol dependency so they have a genetic weakness.

Drinking is a losers' game created by peer pressure. It causes depression and hangovers and causes a lot of crime.

Back when I was a grad student in med school, the "official line" was that alcoholism had both environmental and genetic components. So if you were a devout Muslim, a sincere Southern Baptist, or a TBM, you might have the genetic predisposition but would never find out because you wouldn't get the environmental stimulus. And the other way round, of course.
That was the 1980s, so I don't know what current thinking is on the subject.
Cheers.

Alcohol is not a part of my life. I didn't join the Church to stop drinking; nor did I leave the Church to start.

Since the Church offers no example of how to manage alcohol responsibly, I can imagine how some people new to imbibing might abuse it without appreciating the risks. Because the Church is notorious for exaggerating dangers, we may discount messages about alcoholism as more of their propaganda.

Some of these people could have left the Church. Some people, however, may be Church members with an alcohol problem. Since nobody drinks (officially), they may drink in secret. Secrecy compounds problems. Even those who seek counselling through the Church may be harmed by all-or-nothing reasoning about addiction and degrading messages about self-worth measured by total abstinence (perfectionism).

You said it

I drink socially once or twice a week.
I never drink alone.

I much prefer herb, it's waaaaaaaay cheaper, more effective, doesn't make you sick and no hangover the next day.

You know it.

Heartbroken, I've seen what you describe. I'm sure we all know people who left the church and then went too far with drinking, drugs, and dangerous sex. Some people went through that Rumspringa without suffering permanent harm, but some ended up hurting themselves and others.

I've witnessed a different and sadder scenario. When a person leaves the church, it unsettles relationships and often ends in divorce. A person can thus lose her faith, her family, and even her job in quick succession. The destabilization of so much of one's identity can be devastating. If the person starts to drink at such a time, the alcohol can become a numbing agent that ultimately makes things worse. The resulting addiction or dependency can kill.

I think it is important for people going through serious life changes to recognize their vulnerability to chemical addiction/dependency. Departure from an all-encompassing religious or political movement is, in the short and even the medium term, a risky move.

My daughter’s father decided the church wasn’t for him in his teens and refused to go. What he did instead was abuse substances. And he’s now been an alcoholic and drug addict for over 35 years.

The rhetoric of his family and the mormon church? (Can you guess?!) - “Well this is what happens when you leave the truth!” and “He left because he just wanted to sin!”(drink)

I thought I got away from all that when I left him but it followed me into LDS inc. of course. Then I thought I left it all behind when I left the cult. But no, of course not. My family are spewing out the same rubbish, behind my back - of course.

More likely, he couldn’t stand his crazy family and the psychological abuse that goes hand in hand with being a mormon.
Yes, some people become alcoholics. I think the only concern is: You have to be more careful with alcohol when you’re emotionally fragile. And certainly not when you’re still surrounded by mormons. I’d probably drink myself into oblivion and take hallucinogenics too if I couldn’t escape them.

I didn’t let that stop me from drinking once I left the church. And I’m not an alcoholic.

I absolutely refuse to let this mormon rhetoric and fear govern my life.

My daughter doesn’t drink much which is fine but she has hang ups about it. This is because she’s listened to my family who have put the fear of god into her about her father, the rightness of the mormon church by comparison, and and about life in general. I really regret letting them into her life. If it had just been the two of us I think she’d have a different outlook. As in the alternative one I gave above. Shes a wonderful person but isn't enjoying life quite as much as she could. And all because of fear. And it comes from the mormon mindset. I say ‘no’ to it.

I drink 6 nights a week. (And I smoke marijuana all day every day.)

I can easily put down a bottle a wine a night or several strong beers. Heavy liquor isn't out of the question.

I do it because nothing really seems meaningful any longer. When everything in life becomes a big pointless joke, being drunk is the only way I can enjoy the, "Now." so to speak.

Being sober isn't fun any longer. It's painful. If you want to give drug-users a reason to sober up, they have to have something to look forward to... something they value enough to endure sobriety, because that's all sobriety becomes in the meantime: an endurance test.

My life has no meaning, therefore I drink.

You can find your own meaning but you won’t be able to do that unless you’re sober. If not, you’re making a choice for self destruction. Whoever caused you to feel that life isn’t worth it then wins. It’s not anyone else’s job to give you a reason to be sober, that’s on you. The sooner the better, because the more time you waste, the more you will feel life has no meaning (because you’ve assigned it as such by giving up). It’s a bit like wasting your life on mormonism: the longer you waste time in it, the harder it is to admit that and leave due to all you’ve contributed to it.

You are self-medicating. And your medications of choice will not solve the underlying problem. You might want to consider trying to address your depression in a more productive manner.

People don't die of Alcoholism because they leave the church.

They die of it because they have the disease of alcoholism.

Its a disease, not a choice. It doesn't happen to everyone

who drinks or every one who leaves the church. Being an Exmo

doesn't really cause it.

That bit of nonsense reappears periodically with the claim Mormons who begin drinking have a far higher incidence of alcoholism than others.

The genetics of the disease are clear, and those who know me recall I've bought drinks for ex-Mormons (Richard Packham comes to mind) and actually attended a wine-tasting event hosted by another ex-Mormon friend of mine.

That said, there are reasons to choose to drink and reasons to choose to abstain, and the choice is a personal one that should not be dictated by dogma on either side of the issue.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That bit of nonsense reappears periodically with
> the claim Mormons who begin drinking have a far
> higher incidence of alcoholism than others.
>
> The genetics of the disease are clear, and those
> who know me recall I've bought drinks for
> ex-Mormons (Richard Packham comes to mind) and
> actually attended a wine-tasting event hosted by
> another ex-Mormon friend of mine.
>
> That said, there are reasons to choose to drink
> and reasons to choose to abstain, and the choice
> is a personal one that should not be dictated by
> dogma on either side of the issue.

Some people's ignorance on the subject kind of boggles the mind.

yes, the ignorance is sort of staggering sometimes.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That bit of nonsense reappears periodically with
> the claim Mormons who begin drinking have a far
> higher incidence of alcoholism than others.
>
> The genetics of the disease are clear, and those
> who know me recall I've bought drinks for
> ex-Mormons (Richard Packham comes to mind) and
> actually attended a wine-tasting event hosted by
> another ex-Mormon friend of mine.
>
> That said, there are reasons to choose to drink
> and reasons to choose to abstain, and the choice
> is a personal one that should not be dictated by
> dogma on either side of the issue.

The genetics of this alleged “disease” are not clear, other than bigoted, negative stereotyping of the Irish and Native Americans.

Any serious study of the politicking for the AMA “disease” declaration clearly shows how concocted this “disease” actually is. The only “disease” declaration that had to go a hand vote- did not pass on the first two votes. Only passing after intense lobbying by Alcoholics Anonymous evangelist Marty Mann.

More importantly, if the recovery industry cartel wants to continue this alleged disease standing, then why do they not treat this so called “disease” medically, rather than using the hardcore religious practices of 12 stepping? Rather than using proven medical methods (as the Europeans use successfully) such as the Sinclair method in conjunction with Naltrexone?

Funny how steptards, professional and amateur, would rather support the disastrous American recovery industry- intentionally confusing Naltrexone with Antabuse.

I have been “treated” for two major “diseases” in my life, alcoholism and cancer.

Only one of those two is an actual disease.

OP, I totally get you. After I left the church, I became a huge problem drinker. I wasnt alcoholic, but I was definitely a binge drinker.

I am sorry about your friend. One night I almost got alcohol poisoning and was feeling suicidal. A friend called the cops for me. I wished I had learned a lot more about alcohol before I started using it. I occassionally drink it now, but very very rarely.

I don't know what it is exactly that makes some people fall into alcoholism, while others don't. Seems I've read in the past that it's partly genetic.

Then you combine that with the disorientation that comes from finding out that the LSD Church lied about so many things, there's often a temptation to oversimplify by adopting a new orientation where doing the opposite of everything that the Church instructed you to do seems like the way to go. It's obviously not a good approach, but I've seen several exmos go down that path with almost invariably bad results.

I guess I'm "lucky" in a way. Alcohol has never been good to me. Drinking it has never made me feel good in any way, but rather has always made me feel sick. The downside is that I've never been able to "enjoy" drinking with friends socially. I can hang out with them and enjoy socializing, but I can't really understand or participate in any of the delight they seem to derive from drinking games and so on, so I inevitably have to wander away after the initial round or two of drinks to amuse myself in other ways. Being sober around a bunch of people who are plastered is one of the most boring and uncomfortable things there is.

I don't drink, and it has nothing to do with the Mormons or the WOW.

Moderation and control aside--there's no way I can drink alcohol and have it not kill a tiny amount of brain cells, not make me gain weight, not make me feel ill, not be expensive, not be bad for my body, not make me a dangerous driver, not make me less responsible.

Why begin a new bad habit when you're a thinking adult--a habit you have escaped so far? The same goes for smoking and drugs.

Life is tough enough, without adding unnecessary problems.

I have too many bad habits already, like eating sugar, salt, butter, Coco-cola, staying up too late, laughing too much, being too easily conned, trusting the wrong people, struggling with PTSD, and still not being fully recovered from Mormonism.

Drinking kept (helped keep) me off a missing (the factory work probably did too. They couldn't hire normal, honest males, or females). I hoped they wouldn't call me [a missingnary] (they didn't have my number). Honesty was my calling card.

I drank for meaning. I drank for friends. I drank for myself. I drank to get away from Mormons and Mormonism. I drank a bit more when I found good (high octane) beer, about 5 years later, I drank less, but better.

Then, more than a decade later, I met someone (NoMo) who laughed loudly when on RFM. We drank and visited rfm together. That was a period. I drank sometimes to be with them (and they often abused it, and me).

Now I've all but stopped (habitual/ regular) drinking, but on the occasional celebration, and I no longer drink - or hang out with - any heavy, or daily, drinkers.

I like a certain soberness. Clarity. Flexibility. Strength. I like my health and plan to live a long time: 24 hours, so far, today. Getting back into meditation and the higher arts is grounding.

Probability of becoming dependent when you have tried a substance at least once

Tobacco - 32%
Heroin - 23%
Cocaine - 17%
Alcohol - 15%
Stimulants - 11%
Anxiolytics - 9%
Cannabis - 9%
Analgesics - 8%
Inhalants - 4%

Source: Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology 4th Ed.

Everything is cost (or risk) vs. benefit.
Trick is to know both factors clearly, specifically applied to the self, and then make a conscious decision.

What figure do you think 'sex' would rate if it were considered a substance?

Never understood the idea of drinking responsibly, since once you start drinking, you become less responsible.

And it is a toxin. Why would you advise people to drink poison? I mean, gasoline probably gives you a buzz, yet somehow that is considered unhealthy. It is part alcohol.

But the general problem is the whole idea of using mind altering substances to feel better. Then you wonder why there are addictions. Taking shortcuts is always appealing.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never understood the idea of drinking responsibly,
> since once you start drinking, you become less
> responsible.
>
> And it is a toxin. Why would you advise people
> to drink poison? I mean, gasoline probably
> gives you a buzz, yet somehow that is considered
> unhealthy. It is part alcohol.
>
> But the general problem is the whole idea of using
> mind altering substances to feel better. Then
> you wonder why there are addictions. Taking
> shortcuts is always appealing.


Thank you for demonstrating the judgmental and condescending attitude teetotalers should AVOID.

I agree that alcohol is basically a poison and it is toxic as well. It's a mind altering substance. It's a completely legal drug. Its difficult for your body to break down.

However, I do get why people drink it. Some actually really enjoy the taste, and some feel it helps them relax

But people who drink get really offended if you point out it's a toxin.

My father also died of alcoholism. My wife always pointed in my direction as a warning to others if they were to begin drinking. But then her brother also died of alcoholism, and now I'm not the only one who has alcoholism on my side of the family. I do drink now, but have never been drunk. But it is very sad when someone really takes to drinking, and then can't stop. My father was very depressed. My wife's brother also suffered from depression. I think that many alcoholics begin by being depressed. You drink a bit, and there's that feeling of euphoria in the beginning. It feels pretty good, and for that moment in time, you forget your troubles. I think, but do not know, that that's how many people begin, finding out that your depression wanes for a bit when you start. And many of these people have a latent problem with substance abuse, which takes over when they begin drinking. I'm only relating what happened with my father, how depression gave way to drinking, how the drinking got the better of him, and how it finally took his life.

Cludgie, my personal theory is that alcoholism stems from self-medication for underlying problems such as clinical depression, severe anxiety, PTSD, etc. The person in question chooses alcohol to self-medicate, but it could just as well be opioids, marijuana, heroin, etc.

Both of my parents have "end stage alcoholism" written as a cause of death on their Death Certificates. (Primary cause in my Mom's case; secondary cause to bladder cancer in my Dad's case.)

Both were intensely depressed (even though both were often "life of the party" people when they were in social situations).

My sister and I have always been acutely aware that we carry "alcoholic genes" (because of the genetic factor which can be involved in who becomes an alcoholic and who doesn't).

Mostly, I don't drink. (I do drink exactly one teaspoon of Crème de Cacao daily, in milk (with stevia drops), as a brain supplement....and if I am in a Kiddush situation (Shabbat wine, or wine during Passover seder) I will drink enough to fulfill the requirements.)

Otherwise, I am always low-grade terrified that "it" could happen to ME. My sister feels the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2019 03:11AM by Tevai.

I tried alcohol after leaving the cult in my early 40's - mostly because I didn't want to retain anything Mormon in my life feeling the cult restricted a great deal of fun and recreation in life - in order to mind**** and control it's sheepie. Alcohol is fun and recreational if enjoyed within reason.

I drink maybe twice a year on NYE and on the 4th of July. I get drunk, it's fun, and I look forward to it. I found a whiskey I like on those two occasions. It is very cathartic. I get drunk, and I am a happy drunk guy when I do. I hen very tired and sleep until morning. But that's it...twice a year and no more.

Maybe alcoholism depends in part on self discipline, introspection, mental discipline? I have seen what Alcoholism does...yikes. That would suck to be addicted to something. Exercise...that's the best medicine for the mind and heart. Releases endorphins into the body that last all day. Trust me.

heartbroken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some words of caution to those of you who leave
> Mormonism and want to try alcohol. Don't do it.

Why not? This friend of yours just became the biggest missionary for DON'T LEAVE THE CHURCH, NOT EVER! Well done, said alchy friend!

Sorry for you loss, but c'mon! You gotta let people be, isn't that what you realized upon exiting the church? But no, here you are again, when there's a free agency outcome you don't care for, you tell other free agents, 'Don't do it'.

Like that ever helped anyone? Don't do something because some authority or random or biased individual told us not to.

Let's really try this time to evolve, eh? Like, give a sincere effort, okay?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2019 09:11PM by carameldreams.

OP is just trying to protect us.

Lucifer: “If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!”

Apparently, Lucifer is a fun guy. I love having a beer with friends. Drinking alone is just dumb. It’s such a poor way to get smashed.

I love a glass of wine wherever I am, and if it’s a Sunday that makes it extra special. Red wine is actually good for you, in moderation of course.

Me and my snobbery. If it was good enough for Jesus...