So my question is:

What is it about Dehlin that he needs to tell others how to do this or that, and how to think?
Why does Dehlin need to see himself/be seen as some purveyor of great wisdom? Why does that seem to matter so to him?

And why can he not cut to the core of the matter, instead of meandering hither and thither?

Once again making Exmormons a cottage industry.

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So my question is:
>
> What is it about Dehlin that he needs to tell
> others how to do this or that, and how to think?
> Why does Dehlin need to see himself/be seen as
> some purveyor of great wisdom? Why does that seem
> to matter so to him?

Sorry to see you do not refer to him as Dr. Dehlin.

How dare you question the golden boy of excommunicados?

I believe all the women who have accused Dehlin of sexual inappropriation and assault.

He is an asshole in behavior.

For those who want to go on a cruise or retreat or sit at the feet of an arrogant bible donkey, you can waste your $$$ as you see fit. You wasted it in tithing, why not line the pockets of XL Johnny Boy?

I think he believes word-count has a direct relationship with brainiosity.

I tried to read it all, but stopped when his "at best..." outcome wasn't the friend or relative leaving the church.

But I've been biased against him ab initio.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2019 02:32PM by elderolddog.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think he believes word-count has a direct
> relationship with brainiosity.
============================================

:-D

Laughed out loud!

"Brainiosity" - man, that's a Good one.
Gonna remember that one!

EOD, I've always wanted a "like" button for your comments, and for those of a few others here. In fact, I always find myself looking for the like button before realizing that I'm not on Facebook.

John has saved a lot of lives and helped a lot of people to heal, i am one of them. He gave up a great job and lots of money to establish the nonprofit mormon stories. he is also a psychologist. i wish we had more folks like him in the world. This work is his passion.

I don't think he is hurting for money.

I disagree with this.

"For all these reasons, I believe that it is crucial to recognize the POSITIVE role that Mormonism/religion/churches have provided and continue to provide in the world.
And until secular/post-religious folk figure out ways to more easily rebuild a life of equal or superior happiness/joy/health without religion, religions/churches (including Mormonism) will continue to thrive."

I thought he was a psychologist for helping with religious "addiction" or something like that?

I think many "secular/post-religious folk figure out ways" to build happy and healthy lives. He presents a false dichotomy.

I wonder also why he doesn't insist that "religious folk" prove that their lifestyle is as good as secular societies in many parts of the world. He assumes Mormonism is a net positive but does not prove that point, and then demands that others demonstrate the converse.

Why? Why is the burden on others to disprove his unproven assumptions? I like Dehlin in general, but this post seems well wide of the mark.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why? Why is the burden on others to disprove his
> unproven assumptions?

Yeah, why?

I don't know what to think of him. A part of me likes the arc of his narrative and another thinks that when he was a member he was too accommodating in giving the church the benefits of his doubts <-double entendre intended.

Now he posts this? WTF? Secular peoples need to prove themselves worthy? Secular organizations (corporations?) need to fill the gaps where religious ones are dying?

Pretty bizarre to me to give belief so much benefits, benefit of doubts, and benevolence. They do have a knack at organizing people under banners of heaven and taking credit for their member's good works and taking their widow's mites.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2019 06:49PM by Elder Berry.

I was wondering if I'm just a bitter old bitch.

There is nothing I can think of that mormonism contributed to my life that was good. My experiences were not positive and I don't see the experiences of my daughter as positive. Even my one sister who is still active doesn't see mormonism as positive. I lived it as I thought I had to. I didn't like most mormon people, especially those girls I grew up with.

So I found what he had to say ridiculous.

My therapist is friends with John. I'm going to have to ask him about this one. I don't think he'll agree. He doesn't see his experiences as positive either.

They DID NOT MAKE ME WHO I AM TODAY. Mormonism does not make you a good person.

Well, that's the thing. The Mormon church is not thriving. Surviving, yes, thriving, no. And the number of people who respond "none" to surveys on religion is on the rise.

I agree that the Church, especially the Mormon Church provides the framework to address the various individual needs that John lists. But to me it is just this simple: The Church teaches too many things that are just not true. I left 25 years ago and have gotten along pretty well without the support provided by the Church.

I like church because it gave me a framework, filling in a role my parents failed to provide for me. My mom gave me the love I needed, which was huge for my positive development, but both parents failed to give me an appropriate amount of structure that other children had and thrived from. Parents who provide structure and guidance for their children to become successful adults were at a minimum "just good enough," but parents who didn't were harming their children. People who had just good enough parents don't readily see this because their mannerisms and life chances are normal to them, so they don't understand the strong need for structure from an outside source. It's understandable that this is taken for granted because these processes are inborn, but it can be alarming to someone--like me--who has had to seek structure outside of myself. I don't support the church for what it is--too many cons as an institution. But I can appreciate what the sense of structure means to those who need it to serve their best interests.

If John Dehlin's expertise is helpful, use it. If not, ignore it. No need to bash him. He's helped a lot of people.

When the church teaches that "obedience" is the primary access to a moral life, I agree with John that it is damaging.

He isn't the final voice for all exmos. Sometimes he gets a little too full of himself.

I didn't learn my framework of life from the lds church. I learned it from my parents.

All my siblings are honest, caring, hard working people and all but one is inactive or left the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2019 05:45PM by cl2.

Disagreeing is not "bashing."

"Bashing" is in the eye of the mod.

You annoy me, so I just reported you.

DAMN IT! Three reports and I have to meet with the Vice Principal, the one with the paddle!

So you are doing it intentionally?

... maybe ...

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Disagreeing is not "bashing."
======================

Concur, yet my questions and Lol-lification could be reasonably interpreted as bashing (or at very least dinging) yet these are genuine questions as to what drives the type (not just him). We all know one. I like knowing always the why-of-things (and it routinely gets me in difficulties).

So, turned these questions in the hindbrain all day.

Extrapolating from all aspects of the article, I deduce the man is tremendously anxious.
The anxiety drives the need to (1) "save" others by showing "the right way," and also (2) the need to be surrounded by a crowd of like-minded converts, because of the inborn sense of numbers-equals-safety reduces anxiety (being prey animals in our remote lineage, after all). So, he counters the anxiety by trying to "do good" and "rescue" others.
Well, kudos to him if this is indeed the case, because it requires courage. There are many destructive ways to mollify anxiety which he seems to have rejected. And a bonus to those for whom his work has proven beneficial.

In the end though, personally, I remain slightly skeptical - not of him, but of the type that admonishes others how to be.
The skepticism doesn't mean the work is without merit.

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The skepticism doesn't mean the work is without
> merit.

Excellent point but if he is advocating that religion is presently the only way to be and secularism needs to prove itself he is leading people astray.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent point but if he is advocating that
> religion is presently the only way to be and
> secularism needs to prove itself he is leading
> people astray.
===============================

Ahh, I see to what you are referring to now. That's a Good one.
Completely missed that angle. Concur very much.

That also - the tendency to reduce the whole of existence to a simple either/or - is itself a characteristic of anxiety.
It rather simplifies the whole into something that may be controlled - or rather, attempts to.

Of course it does not work.

That’s a good point. After my post totally bashing this, he does sound very anxious, which is unfortunate, so I should perhaps have given him credit for coming from (most likely) a kind hearted place.

This is interesting (not the post itself).I think I recently stopped following John Dehlin on Facebook. I can’t remember why - maybe that says something on it’s own.

I agree he uses too many words, without saying nearly enough. I genuinely couldn’t even read the whole thing in detail but I think got most of it.

It’s true that mormonism does seem to make a lot of people very happy and it works for them. I don’t really feel it’s right to criticise that, except to comment that they perhaps don’t know any better. It’s not my place to judge, but I don’t think we need to be told such a thing. And their happiness doesn’t generally impact on my life, so I live and let live - unless of course they start judging me, which is not uncommon.
He talks as though ex-mormons don’t understand the appeal of religion and community, etc. This is condescending BS; we know very well, otherwise we would not have been in it ourselves. Saying we owe it a “HUGE” (!?) debt of gratitude is unbelievable. Just what is his objective here - and generally: what is his purpose?? He misses the point...

I can see some benefits the mormon church had in my life, sure. I learnt public speaking, teaching, planning, time management (um, plus how to NOT do a whole bunch of stuff). Plus, if I hadn’t gone through that I probably wouldn’t think critically and have an understanding and appreciation for things like philosophy, for example. But this doesn’t make it ok. It is precisely why the mormon church has a bright “up” side that makes it dangerous and controlling. It’s like the analogy of the abusive relationship: Why do women stay with abusive and controlling men? Well, because most of the time they are just lovely human beings, that’s why, and because it can take years to figure out that this is all fake.

He is taking the piss. It’s as though he thinks we don’t know why people are happy in the mormon church. I can respect and understand that mormons are happy, and not resort to hatred and wanting it wiped off the face of the planet. And at the same time STILL have the right to think (and say) that the corporation itself is downright dishonourable and corrupt. The two views are actually NOT mutually exclusive, and him preaching with the assumption that people don’t know this basic fact is sanctimonious.

Which makes me think this post is not directed at us, but that he is putting on a show for the mormons, by trying to set himself up as some middle-man guru. Perhaps that’s who he is officially, I don’t know enough about him. But it reeks of showmanship and marketing. And if it’s not that, then it’s still a load of bullshit. Of COURSE it’s better to rid yourself of bitterness. But it’s not his job to state a better way of processing things. There’s no right way and why does there have to be? Why should we care? We already KNOW all of this shit. We KNOW that our mormon family members feel it works for them, how they engage in non-thinking and that they interpret our thinking-arguments as personal attacks. Worst case scenario, we live and learn, but not necessarily; I think I had an idea of this anyway. Best case, is this is aimed at new ex-mormons? Or is he stupid? He sucks if he is a psychologist. I’d be very interested what your therapist has to say, cl2.

My overall response to this is, WTF?

Everything he says is really obvious. He either thinks he’s
a) educating people (patronising); b) he is stating the obvious because he’s out of touch, or c) he is virtue-signalling as a marketing ploy, or in a self-unaware spiel of self-righteousness.

F*** off. This is annoying.

I think John’s pool of potential clients (and listeners)are people who are just leaving or considering leaving the church. So, his very generous attitude towards the Mormon church helps those people feel comfortable in talking to him. I’m guessing.

This has sort of been his MO since the beginning.

If Mormons (as has been reported on numerous occasions) are spending a lot of time on cell phones during church meetings, I'm going to make the argument that those people are not happy with their church experience.

I agree that John and other people are trying to take down the church. But the way they are going about it is really starting to get in my craw. How much more annoying can they get? Newnamenoah is practically a pestering fool with his off topic videos that do not have any relation to his original cause.

Several years ago John was at my house meeting with my wife and several NOMs and border line NOMS about one of his great conferences, that I believe predated Mormon Stories IIRC. While John was pontificating in my living room I was working in the next room on some projects for work and told my 13 yo son that John seemed to be an incredibly pompous windbag. My son told my wife and she was quite upset with me. Now many years later she refers to him as the "pompous windbag" trying to milk the faith challenged. I've only met him a few times and he is always surrounded by a gaggle of adoring female groupies and pudgy intellectual ex-mos.

I think it ties into his recent podcasts. He believes the church should be reformed if possible to make it suck less for the people still in. To think that way, he has to make an argument that it had its benefits.

Getting measles has benefits too, like lifetime immunity. That doesn’t mean we should be throwing measles parties or reminiscing about how great measles was. There are alternatives to measles, like vaccines. I suppose if you miss measles you could go for chicken pox.

I distinctly remember being an asshole as a Mormon. That’s not a benefit. Being used as a psychological crash test dummy was also not a benefit. If you got mugged on the street, would you be grateful to the mugger?

I think what’s really going on here is that John’s source of income is related to shelf-crashed Mormons playing kiss and make up. Well, kiss this.

Have you considered sitting for an interview with him for his podcast?

"I distinctly remember being an asshole as a Mormon."


On the Treadmill to Zion (tm) are found many species of asshole.

I agree with him. I am very thankful for being lied to and having my money and time stolen. Precious. It made me who I am today. I had nothing to do with that. Amen.

If we are abused in any manner, we should be thankful if good results...

<snort>

I love your sarcasm :-) :-)

Wife beaters even had a shirt named after them.

I was thinking about this while walking today. I'm going to send this to my therapist now so that I can find out sooner what he thinks rather than waiting for a cancellation so I can get in. I get in faster that way as my schedule is very flexible.

Like my ex said and I've said before--he told our daughter, "Your mother was never happy as a mormon." I went to church because I believed and I thought I HAD TO. I thought there was no other way. I went to worship. I didn't go to be part of the culture. I hated the culture. My whole family hates the culture. My daughter hates the culture--misses Alaska. And when my neighbors invite me to the R.S. dinner or the "neighborhood party," I think, "I hated going when I was active mormon, why would I want to go now?"

I hated being a single in the mormon church. The mormon guys always treated me like a "friend" and I couldn't be anything more to them, but they wanted me around all the time. I could have dated any nonmormon I wanted, ones who had great jobs and desired me and begged me to marry them, but no, I had to put up with mormon guys and their games. The girls in primary and mutual were never very nice to me. The one I was friends with her parents didn't go to church and she was my best friend. Her parents always treated me with the utmost respect and caring.

The best I was ever treated in mormonism was when I was with my husband who was cheating on me with men and the executive secretary and I was told he'd be one of the next bishops. He knew how to play the mormon culture game and he plays it well still. The people in the neighborhood still fall all over him when he is around. Especially the women. It is actually hilarious to watch. I withdrew my kids from church as I didn't want them treated as I had been all my life.

I was born this way. I'm a good person because I was born this way and I had good parents who loved me and didn't teach me to be fake.

I'll let you know what my therapist says.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2019 01:33PM by cl2.

I support John in all he has done. He has helped a lot of people by providing a forum for many of us to process the after-math of Mormonism and all that entails.

He is correct that the "one stop shop" feature religious communities provide for many of the basic human needs is what makes them so appealing to so many.

As much as I disdain the dogma typically required/expected by religions as well as the discouragement of independent thought and inquiry, I recognize that it that is, in part, the faith based dogma that helps to bring these people together and unite them.

Could a secular community seeking to provide all those same things mentioned in Johns article minus the religious dogma attract people to join it's ranks?

I've wondered for a long time if a secular community building on sound and true principles in place of dogma could accomplish more good in nurturing healthy human society than faith based communities. Imagine

I have noticed that many of his programs contain the repeating theme: "despite the many flaws of the church, overall the church has done a good job helping people." He sincerely believes by acknowledging that over and over that it leads to credibility and respect from TBMs. I think he fantasizes that the church is going to recognize his efforts to persuade members with weak testimonies to hang on if the church is going to be reformed. I think he would be re-baptized if the church extended an olive branch.

I disagree with his opinion. I think people are good in spite of the church organization and it's teachings. I could never reconcile all of their lying and deceit.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have noticed that many of his programs contain
> the repeating theme: "despite the many flaws of
> the church, overall the church has done a good job
> helping people." He sincerely believes by
> acknowledging that over and over that it leads to
> credibility and respect from TBMs. I think he
> fantasizes that the church is going to recognize
> his efforts to persuade members with weak
> testimonies to hang on if the church is going to
> be reformed. I think he would be re-baptized if
> the church extended an olive branch.
>
> I disagree with his opinion. I think people are
> good in spite of the church organization and it's
> teachings. I could never reconcile all of their
> lying and deceit.

You can tell there is a lot in the church Dehlin loves. He just had a bad run in with the leadership. I think he really believes he can be a change agent and if the LDS church becomes like the Community of Christ Dehlin would rejoin it.

I view the whole church as a fraud. Sure it does good things but hey, John Gotti bought the 4th of July fireworks and Al Capone ran soup kitchens. Doing some good doesn’t make up for the other rot.

I agree with the criticisms of John Dehlin. His words have never resonated with me. I would never consider him a "ghuru." Yes, he seems to be pandering to the Mormons, and I also get the impression that he's trying to create a niche for himself, and build a career out of our Mormon-caused angst.

Nope, the Mormon church did me absolutely no good. Mormons made me afraid of public speaking, because I felt coerced into saying things I didn't mean, and the Mormon audience was judging me. I overcame that fear in college, by taking business classes, by knowing what I was speaking about, by believing in what I was saying. I was able to become persuasive at fund-raisers. At work, I gave multimedia presentations to groups of 200, which to me seemed large. I was confident because I was well-prepared and well-rehearsed. The cult had only taught me to fly by the seat of my pants.

Teaching? Again, I learned that by teaching swimming, tennis, and music at a summer boarding school, on my summer breaks from BYU. Mormons taught me to lie and deflect, not teach. I learned more about children through babysitting, keeping kids happy, comforting them when their parents weren't there.

My music? That came from many years of expensive piano lessons, and then organ lessons from a non-Mormon PAID professional organist.

Mormons taught me the art of BS, how to "fake it till you make it," how to feel like a phony and be socially awkward. I learned racism and prejudice. In fact, I had to UNLEARN so many wrong things, that it has taken me 12 years of hard work, so far.

Oh yeah, I'm very interested in what Cl2's psychologist says about this. Please return and report, will you?

I second all of that. Exactly.

As a Mormon I learned to construct a facade which robbed me of a lot of real honest life. When I got out of Mormonism and out into the real world, I found I was way behind my new peers and had a lot of catching up to do. I second all of that. Exactly.

I live now in a melting pot with a variety of wonderful people and religion never comes up. If you can't figure out how to be a good person on your own, something is really wrong. The art of reciprocity is not hard get.

I do not agree with John Dehlin. Besides. He agrees with himself enough for all of us.

> He agrees with himself
> enough for all of us.


Cool analysis! He is constructed of Presidential Timber!

Presidential Tinder?

Swipe. . .

It is easy to be critical of John D.....but I support and appreciate him. He works very hard, has greatly sacrificed financially in pursuit of his passion....to assist people, especially married couples, in their faith transition.

I KNOW john loves his wife and daughters very much. I believe he has a pure heart. Far from perfect, but I give him tons of credit for loving and helping so many thousands of people....

mythb4meat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I KNOW john loves his wife and daughters very
> much. I believe he has a pure heart. Far from
> perfect, but I give him tons of credit for loving
> and helping so many thousands of people....

Hi, Dr. Dehlin! When is your next Crui$e?

Made your wifey cry for the YouTubes lately?

I love the smell of cynicism as sun goes down!

if u watch his podcasts enough, u can see his MO. he is not trying to bash but he aint trying to promote. if he saved one life, then he is good people to me. he didnt help me see the light, i give that credit to the apologetics and Pakham. but i like his podcasts.

I think John’s big dream is to have the LDS church become like the Community of Christ. He did say he started Mormon Stories to make some money. I doubt he’s getting rich but I think he enjoys making the church squirm a bit and he’s hoping to create a big enough ruckus the church starts changing in ways he would like it to.

I did enjoy the interviews with former church leaders and employees. I thought the inside scoop on calling and election made sure and the ceremony was interesting.

Seems like the biggest problem people have with the church who have been interviewed is how the church treats gay people. Second to that is finding out the church was not honest about it’s history.

I think Mormon stories will run out of material to cover. It will just be more disappointed members disappointed over the same stuff. I’m bored with it. I have no interest unless of course an apostle bails and wants to spill some beans.

(at first glance) I didn't see anything about ChurchCos responsibility for members' crisis.

The arbitrary & capricious ways they sometimes apply, sometimes ignore their 'principles' needs attention IMHO, was that missing (from all his work)?


People depend on Mormonism, then ChurchCo abandons the exact principles/doctrines that people (inbred & converts) treasured & depended on for their health, many for family unity, some for their livelihood.

When (NOT IF) Mormonism fails One individual or one family, it has FAILED.

Well, I get the last word... John and his podcast is great. Keep up the great work of making the so called true church be more truthful. Thanks John

more truthful?


pls show us where...