I was surprised to see the number of negative comments about John Dehlin's recent article. I can relate to both sides of the arguement. But I wanted to comment here about some of the merits of what he said.

For the first time in several years, I recently saw a therapist (six months ago after several years of no counseling) to help cope with some of the challenges that seem to vex my life and that relate to Mormonism and some of the traumas that I experienced before I resigned from the church. My life seems to be moving positively forward now and I've been able to let go of most of the anger I was feeling previously. I didn't know what to do to move forward under what started feeling like a new paradigm. The therapist said that it sounds like I am starting to find "acceptance" and that the next step is to find "meaning". This finding of meaning seems to be where Dehlin is heading with this article.

In my local community growing up in the Seattle area, there were a lot of good people who were members of the church. I see that the church was more of a parasite to these people's lives and yet it was the best thing they could find in their attempts at the time to become better people. I fit-in well with them because I was in the same situation. The church in Salt Lake and its corporate structure was/is the parasite. When Dehlin speaks of the things that the church has done that are good for our lives, I see the things that these good people in my local community did for me. It wasn't about money and physical goods. I learned most of my higher-level social skills and the ability to interact in a community from my interactions with these people in my community in a ward in a poor area. To provide some perspective, both of my parents were alcoholics and I literally didn't know how to fit in to a social group at all until a few friends who lived near-by taught me how to do it. This included teaching me how to dress at times and how to talk to girls when I didn't have a clue how, nor have the confidence on my own. A few years later (at age 16), I had a very active social life and started speaking publicly at church.

I took these same skills right with me in to the workplace. Most of these social skills were developed in a mormon church building or through official church activities. I am grateful for what these people in my local community of church members did for me. But that doesn't let the church leaders in Salt Lake off the hook for all of their fraud and for the parts of the religion that are abusive and exploitive. At the same time, neither of my parents went to college and yet I have three college degrees, one a master's degree. One of my siblings has a similar story and the other two are dead, one from illegal drug use. I hate to say it but it's probably some lessons learned on my mission that have kept me professionally employed for the past few decades. How likely is this to be the case for a guy with two alcoholic parents, one of which (the mormon one) used hard drugs and had a criminal history. Neither of my parents had very good social skills and their incorrect life-paradigms limited their potentials. I don't credit the church directly for many of my life choices. But I don't know where my life would have gone without it.

When I was in the thick of the events that led to my resignation, I returned to my hometown (a Seattle suburb) with the intent to resign from my home ward. I figured I would reverse my mistake right at the source. I went to church there in preparation to resign. There I found nothing but people who loved me and who genuinely wanted to see good things happen in my life. So I returned to Arizona and resigned there. As much as I hate to say it, I did get some valuable things from my affiliation with the church. But the church was wholly ineffective at preventing the traumas that led to my resignation when they could have made much better choices. It wasn't what any church member did that led me to resign. It was how the church leaders responded to those events and how the church culture and religious beliefs made things far worse than they had to be. Suddenly the mask worn by the church was ripped-off and I saw who and what the church was/is really all about. My belief-system was suddenly obliterated all at once. All of the needs that Dehlin wrote about in his article and that were being fulfilled for me by my affiliation with the church were suddenly not capable of being fulfilled at all under my own beliefs, all in one moment of epiphany. Suddenly, I had nothing left to fall back on and the church had proven to be an enemy.

So I eventually picked-up the pieces and started moving forward very slowly, by myself. Eventually when I went on that job interview where I have worked now for twenty years, I put on a business suit and tied the tie myself (where did I learn how to do that?). I am greatful for what I learned from those in my local community while growing-up. I would have never found them nor maintained their affiliation without the mormon church. Some of them are still my close friends today. But that still doesn't mean that the mormon religion is not majorly fucked-up and that the church leaders in Salt Lake are not routinely committing major frauds and exploitation of their members. I am still looking for some "meaning" behind what happened to me and why, in my former affiliation with the mormon church.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2019 07:10AM by azsteve.

"In my experience, understanding the many ways that Mormonism brought you joy/meaning/fulfillment is a crucial step to rebuilding the new life that you want to live beyond Mormonism. Each of the holes listed above that Mormonism filled must be filled again before you will find healing/joy beyond Mormonism."

In my mind this statement is the nut of the issue.

Like all things, it depends how we go about doing this. If we need to fill those holes with an organization that is something that Mormonism was supposed to be, we'll either be disappointed or find ourselves in another cult or cult-like group.

But it is important going forward to understand the elements of your Mormon approach to life that were successful and healthy. Turning entirely against everything we picked up in that environment can be damaging. If we take the attitude that I'm going to fully embrace everything the church said was bad, we'll end up in a correctional institution or insane asylum before long.

However, I think Dehlin's retrospective analysis is not exactly on point. If we have been relatively successful, we are also forced to confront the possibility of having been more successful or happy without Mormonism. What might I have accomplished if I didn't have to endure a faith crisis in my twenties? What might I have done in High School, if I wasn't constantly worried about my worthiness? I can count just as many things holding me back as pushing me forward as a Mormon, so this is a complicated retrospective.

Now, maybe Dehlin is trying to emphasize the positive because that's the point he's trying to communicate. After all, his audience isn't having any trouble identifying the negative impacts of the LDS Church in their lives. On the other hand, it could just be his constant desire to have an olive branch out, because, frankly, I think he likes Mormon culture more than most ex-Mormons.

"...the many ways that Mormonism brought you joy/meaning/fulfillment is a crucial step to rebuilding..."

But it was merely my particular social organization in my geographical location. I can't think of something corporate that brought me much joy/meaning/fulfillment. I think Dehlin is creating the opposite of a strawman. He is creating a Celestial man to be held up as something to fill his God's alcove.

I felt joy/meaning/fulfillment in the context of people. IT was never outside that for me. For Dehlin maybe Mormonism spoke to him like doctrines do to a religious zealot. Maybe he was moved by the words, doctrines, prophets, stories, narrative.

For me it was an environment of like-mindedness and loud laughter, and tears, and drama, and emotion.

Intellectually, I was starved in Mormonism. Emotionally, I was immersed, drowning and I didn't know it.

surprised about after reading it. Very philosophical.

My younger sister went to her high school reunion for the first time and she is almost 58. Some people talked her into it. The 2 girls she went to primary and mutual with were there. Oddly enough, there were only 3 of them who were active mormon in her class. She had a friend a year younger who was active mormon, but she was also not a family of "mormon royalty," though we are supposedly mormon royalty by the things I've read here.

These 2 "women" came over to talk to my sister and, after that, she got up and went home. Of course, she was sporting her tattoos LOL. My sister is a beauty even at 58 and much prettier than the other 2 women. She was always treated very poorly at church, as were all of my siblings. It is not small wonder that 3 of my 6 siblings left after leaving home or sooner, and it took me until 38 or so. My one sister still goes as her husband goes. She hates mormons and mormon culture. She lives in the Twin Falls, Idaho area on purpose and none of her friends are mormon, some are ex-mormon. She still has some experiences she holds onto about going to the temple and her husband likes her to go. My other brother has been disabled from birth and he still goes.

My daughter is the only grandchild who goes, but everyone in this ward loves her father and she still hasn't wandered out much into other wards. It is a lower middle class ward.

I can't think of ONE POSITIVE THING I gained from mormonism. They all come up negative. And considering my gay/straight marriage on their strong advice I'd say I have a case.

The ONE positive if I can think of any are the few men I met at Thiokol who are still close to me and loved me like a daughter, and couldn't figure out why I wouldn't marry that nonmormon we worked with who wanted to marry me--who I've now been with for 15 years. That's the only positive, but they were not your typical mormon men. Not at all. They would be good people without the church.

My belief in Santa, magic elves, and flying reindeer made me who I am today.

The gratitude expressed and the generosity with which you acknowledge and credit external influences says you are the kind of individual who would have "made it" regardless of cards dealt, azsteve.

Just happened to be Mormons.
But in truth, it was always you.

you can't be guided by moral half measures and expect a full life, even if it makes Dehlin a folk hero.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am
> still looking for some "meaning" behind what
> happened to me and why, in my former affiliation
> with the mormon church.


This in my opinion is the crux of the matter as well as an explanation for my theory of why Dehlin speaks to/for so many former Mormons.

It is a fecund mental area to exploit in those seeking counseling. It is the Gordian Knot we were all caught in.

But like anyone caught in a Stockholm Syndrome situation be it family, friends, a large and rich corporation there will often be very positive experiences hard to "explain away" psychologically.

I disagree with Dehlin's attributions of some sort of material benefits for secularism to reproduce in the religious and community experiences people have which they find life enhancing. A rotten apple isn't rotten all way round.

If you go to the root cause of the "meaning" behind your experiences you could go back to your very existence. It is the same question just not as particular.

I'm always looking for some "meaning" behind what happened to me and why, in my former life be it a minute or a lifetime ago. Cognitive dissonance bleeds into communal feelings in things like Mormonism which consume us. We look for meaning in things that simply are a part of our environment and not some kind of "fate" that we need to learn from. Learning from right now that we can't see the future meaning of things is key to mentally ingesting experiences without moral evaluation. Unless we want to create a lens like religion attempts to make us do for morally evaluating our experiences minute to minute, we need to take a larger perspective on past experiences and reinterpret them as we need to understanding that we won't see the same thing day to day for the same past experience.

Trying to tie our past Gordian Knots down to a mental moral mooring requires one to untie them enough to affix them. It is a job for Sisyphus. The knot is always slipping off its mooring.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2019 11:53AM by Elder Berry.