(I deleted names, etc., so this isn't exactly what he said.)

Thanks for sharing this post. It raises some really interesting questions about faith transitions and their effects. I'm in St. George with my very big Mormon family for our annual reunion . I was up with several of them last night at our dinner table, discussing church issues until 2:00 a.m. My sister and her husband (previously R.S. president and bishop) have been interviewed on the podcast "Latter Gay Saints" about their experience of their temple-married daughter coming out as lesbian, divorcing, and marrying her new lover also a former temple married woman. I think their podcast is episode #99 if you are interested.

Also at our dinner table last night was my brother in law, his wife and another sister, currently a Relief Society President. We had a very open and respectful conversation about the positives that the church offers its members and some of the distinct liabilities entailed. Over four hours we hit polygamy, LGBTQ issues, church racism, church dishonesty about its history, fallibility of prophets and priesthood leaders, etc. I let them all know how delightful it was to have such a conversation in a time when divisiveness and disrespect characterize so many family conversations of this sort.

With that as my current context, I think John's statement rings true. BIL and sister choose to stay in the church but they openly state that they believe the church is morally wrong in its policies and teachings toward LGBTQ people. They are vocal advocates for LGBTQ people and the need for the church to change its policies about them. BIL bristles at the bureaucratic and often Pharisaical polices of the church but chooses to fulfill his callings with a Christ-like non-judgmental love of others. Sister has few issues with the church and participates with apparently little dissonance.

In my experience, John's statement applies for myself and many of the faith-transitioning clients I've worked with. The cost/benefit ratio of church membership varies widely. For me personally, it was clear that the costs of staying in far outweighed the benefits. For my RS president sister, the benefits far outweigh the costs. And for one sister and BIL, the benefits slightly outweigh the costs.

In one of my favorite books, "Religion for Atheists" the philosopher Alain de Botton makes the case that there are numerous facets of religion that atheists, like myself, should steal and adapt to their own needs. He's talking about some of the kinds of things John addresses. You might enjoy Botton's TED talk "Atheism 2.0."

In summary, I think that the cost/benefit ratio of religion is highly dependent on the individual. As with a given drug, some people may find it life-saving. For others it may create horrendous side-effects and should be terminated immediately. It has been my pleasure to help those of us in the latter category find functional alternatives to faith. I appreciate you and the numerous other post-Mormons who create space for bigger and better possibilities than religion could offer.
______________________________

And I, cl2, fit into the category of "For others it may create horrendous side-effects and should be terminated immediately."

Thanks. Muy Interesante.

And I, D&D, also fit your category, cl2.

I can't stand the attitude: "Well it works for me so I don't care what it does to anyone else."

And these devout Mormons with a so-called testimony who KNOW the church is true and KNOW the prophet is inspired, still think that what the Prophet has been inspired to do regarding LGBT is morally wrong. They are so stupid that they don't get or don't care that under those circumstances, they are saying their God is morally wrong. They will take any skewed stance that allows them to cling to their belief that they are God's chosen and will be the big winners in the end.

I as a gay man do not want to hear from a Mormon that they support LGBT. I find it disingenuous, offensive, and self serving. That kind of thinking only leads to more collateral damage like what the church did to you, cl2.

It's 2019. Enough with the baby steps. Grow up already, Mormons.

My mother asked me once if I'd ever go back. I said I couldn't with the damage they have caused to not just my ex, myself, and our kids, but to all gays, all straights who have found themselves married to them, and the kids.

It has been 36 years since I found out he is gay and NOTHING has changed. Just the words they use.

And you've had your whole life to deal with their offensiveness.

I've said before. I asked my Catholic friends how they felt about priest sexual abuse (about 15 years ago) and they said, "It was unfortunate." For religious people and I have to admit I was one of them, UNLESS IT HAPPENS TO YOU. But then there are those with gay children who still stay and my daughter has the utmost respect for her father (not for me) and she is extreme TBM. She is proving every day that she doesn't have the utmost respect for her father. They just don't seem to SEE IT. No, they pretend they don't see it.

could not agree more. Delhin literally lives off making the cowardice and hesitation a genuine moral position. He tried it. He was willing to stay after finding out it was racist, chauvinistic, exploitative falsehoods...as long as he got to to cash in on it.

"For others it may create horrendous side-effects and should be terminated immediately." Me, too, and my children, and some of my cousins, and several other ex-Mormons I'm close to, for various reasons.

I find that the realization that Mormonism is a hoax is as valid a reason as any, for terminating Mormonism. You don't have to be abused, gay, shunned, demeaned, or threatened, to make you want to flee the cult (although most of us were!). There's the lie factor, the scam factor, the stealing of money, the robbing of your time, the shriveling of your self-esteem, the alienating of your family, and boredom, that happens as long as you stay in.

Listening to all that hatred of others coupled with the arrogance of themselves, put me off of Mormons, forever. I agree that "...NOTHING has changed. Just the words they use."

I will always wonder if most of the happy Mormons are happy because they don't see it (real or pretend). Mormons tell each other to bear their testimony anyway, until it becomes real. Mormons act on the premise that if a lie is repeated often enough, it soon becomes the truth. They say that the Truth isn't always useful. Mormons used to advise me to "fake it till you make it." Are they really happy, or are they delusional? When I was a Mormon, I know that I was in denial--I always knew that--and deliberately put contrary thoughts and questions out of my mind. It was like self-brainwashing. Like, it was a survival mechanism, or something. But, I KNEW I was in denial; therefore I was not delusional. This is one reason why some of us were always "unhappy being Mormons."

The Mormons mentioned in the therapist's post were self-reporting that they were happy. Other polls with positive reports, such as the polls the Mormon cult publishes, are all self-evaluating.

Looking at "good Mormon families" from the outside, I believe that they would have been happy, loving, successful and "good" anyway. Perhaps they would have been even better, without the interference of Mormonism, IMO. My family was better without it.

Still--the narrator is a psychologist, and knows these people well enough, so if he thinks they are happy, they probably really are! This is eye-opening for me, and makes me feel better about my own loved ones who are still "trapped" in the cult. Maybe I have been overreacting, and it isn't as awful for them.

Thank you for your return and report, Cl2!

exminion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "For others it may create horrendous side-effects
> and should be terminated immediately." Me, too,
> and my children, and some of my cousins, and
> several other ex-Mormons I'm close to, for various
> reasons.
>
> I find that the realization that Mormonism is a
> hoax is as valid a reason as any, for terminating
> Mormonism. You don't have to be abused, gay,
> shunned, demeaned, or threatened, to make you want
> to flee the cult (although most of us were!).
> There's the lie factor, the scam factor, the
> stealing of money, the robbing of your time, the
> shriveling of your self-esteem, the alienating of
> your family, and boredom, that happens as long as
> you stay in.

>
> Listening to all that hatred of others coupled
> with the arrogance of themselves, put me off of
> Mormons, forever. I agree that "...NOTHING has
> changed. Just the words they use."
>
> I will always wonder if most of the happy Mormons
> are happy because they don't see it (real or
> pretend). Mormons tell each other to bear their
> testimony anyway, until it becomes real. Mormons
> act on the premise that if a lie is repeated often
> enough, it soon becomes the truth. They say that
> the Truth isn't always useful. Mormons used to
> advise me to "fake it till you make it." Are they
> really happy, or are they delusional? When I was
> a Mormon, I know that I was in denial--I always
> knew that--and deliberately put contrary thoughts
> and questions out of my mind. It was like
> self-brainwashing. Like, it was a survival
> mechanism, or something. But, I KNEW I was in
> denial; therefore I was not delusional. This is
> one reason why some of us were always "unhappy
> being Mormons."
>
> The Mormons mentioned in the therapist's post were
> self-reporting that they were happy. Other polls
> with positive reports, such as the polls the
> Mormon cult publishes, are all self-evaluating.
>
> Looking at "good Mormon families" from the
> outside, I believe that they would have been
> happy, loving, successful and "good" anyway.
> Perhaps they would have been even better, without
> the interference of Mormonism, IMO. My family was
> better without it.
>
> Still--the narrator is a psychologist, and knows
> these people well enough, so if he thinks they are
> happy, they probably really are! This is
> eye-opening for me, and makes me feel better about
> my own loved ones who are still "trapped" in the
> cult. Maybe I have been overreacting, and it
> isn't as awful for them.
>
> Thank you for your return and report, Cl2!

Some people love liver. Other people HATE it. It’s not much different with the church. We all love and hate different things. It kind of sucks eating something you really don’t like and no amount of seasoning or special sauce makes it any better.

The LDS church is a corporation owned by a 94 year old man. Think about it? How cutting edge do you really expect the church to be when it always has an old man who spent most his adult life serving in the church following orders from other old men?

The church is old out of touch old men trying to keep the young people in it. It’s a joke.

The church’s biggest asset is it has plenty of money to wow it’s members with nice buildings. The doctrine and everything else has much to be desired. Believe me, if the church had no money and the members had to meet in rented halls and there were no universities, sports teams, big conference centers and fancy temples there would be way less members. It’s all about feeling like you are part of something important and playing a part in it. That’s the appeal of Mormonism.

You are right, Rubicon.

I hadn't realized that, because I don't buy into hype, but the Mormons certainly do. I understand why there has to be constant "Winchester Mystery House" construction on multiple, unnecessary, oversized, garish-looking temples, now. Did the hammering keep away ghosts? I didn't get it, until now, why the Mormons couldn't build something tasteful, that fit in with its surroundings, and something less gaudy and more practical. That would defeat the temples true purpose. And, the more the better, right? I get it!

Maybe the most important part of the televised General Conference is announcing all of the new temples, and showing off the gigantic conference center, force-filled with on-demand minions.

Just like the Scientologists who buy building after building and leave them standing empty.

Totalitarian regimes like to build useless structures and own empty palaces.

Thank you for posting this, cl2.

"In summary, I think that the cost/benefit ratio of religion is highly dependent on the individual. . . For others it may create horrendous side-effects and should be terminated immediately."

I guess this is where I can't agree with your therapist. If something creates "horrendous side-effects" for a large number of people, a positive cost/benefit ratio for me doesn't work. The Mormon community may work for me personally (it did not), but what happens if I have a child who is born gay? What if a sibling or a friend is gay? What about the awkward little girl with pig tails sitting in the congregation who is just now realizing she is gay? Am I willing to affirm, through my participation, a system of thought that may well kill that child?

I can't do that. A separate peace is impossible for me in those circumstances.

It will be more interesting when I go see him and see what he says then. He doesn't participate much in exmormon type things, but he is very exmormon. He considers himself atheist.

He always debates these family members when he goes to family reunions. His wife wonders why he goes, but he loves the debate. He usually wins the debate.

I "suppose" there are those who find it useful. I don't. Nobody I know is really benefiting. They think they are.

As I said in another thread, it is all well and good (per what I asked Catholic friends) UNTIL it happens to you. It had to be a big issue like gays to get me out as I would have suffered through it the rest of my life thinking I was doing what I was supposed to no matter how unhappy I was (and I was).

I have seen it be helpful in a few people's lives. I grew up with a kid who had a terrible family situation and he latched onto the church at age 12 and it gave him structure and friends. There are others.

But the number of those is small, and if they stay long enough they end up dealing with the lies and manipulation and cruelty like the rest of us. So if it is a net positive, it is not overwhelmingly so.

Meanwhile it harms so very many more, both marginally in the case of straight white people and much more seriously in the case of LGBTQ and others who don't fit the mold. So even if it is a marginal net positive for some, in my view it is a big net negative for humanity as a whole.

Ideally we shouldn't see it as "well and good. . . UNTIL it happens to you." For as John Donne observed, if you empathize with your fellow humans you should ask not "for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

While reading this post, I was thinking of those close to me who are still active mormon and for the amount of effort and money they put into it, they get nothing in return except they think God is watching out for them and they'll get their reward in the next life. They never stop to really think about what the reality is.

Thanks, Cl2!

Wow, this thread has given me a lot to think about.

Being a mother perhaps gives me a different perspective. I don't like liver, and I live around that, but seeing people force-feed my children liver, would make me rebel. Especially, if people lied and told my children it was NOT liver, and tried to disguse it as waffles, and told my children they were crazy if they thought the waffles tasted like liver, or bad if they refused to partake.

Perhaps a better analogy would be a food with a cumulative poisonous effect, like mercury-laden fish, which the Mormons might put into its cookies and cupcakes, a little at a time, so the children could not detect that they were eating it.

IMO, Mormonism is bad, in any form, and in any dose. Cutting it back to two hours on Sunday is not going to make it less bad.

I totally get what Lot's Wife says about "a separate peace." What a great way of putting it! How can I be completely at peace with being free of the cult, when one of my children and my baptized will be harmed by it? If they are obedient, if they aren't gay, if all goes perfectly on their missions and with their educations--they will still be abused, mentally and physically! My children were great kids, and they were abused. All Primary children are lied to. All are threatened with bad things that will happen to them if they aren't obedient. My kids had nightmares about what they were taught in Primary. Was there even one child in those classes that was unafraid? Who was made happier by going to church? Or, was it a matter of who could appear to be happier? Children are taught to be phony. The "self" is bad. Sorry to rant, but I could go on and on.

My TBM daughter is "happily married" in the temple to an accomplished TBM, but she tells me she knows that if she ever left the church, he would divorce her in a heartbeat, and take the children from her.

One grandchild is a female, and she will most likely be pushed into a marriage when she's too young and not ready, or (like I was) doesn't know the young man well enough. This is happening to a friend's TBM granddaughter, right now, at BYU, and after 3 months of meeting him, he seems like a loser, and the beautiful little freshman scholarship girl could do a lot better. The loser wants her to give up her 4-year, full-ride scholarship and marry him, and put him through his remaining years at community college. Once married, a mormon female is admonished to have a baby immediately, and not wait.

My TBM grandson, no matter what he does for a living, will have 10% less income than he earns. If he decides to go to college and beyond, he will be 2 years behind, because of a mission. How can this be good?

If everything is dandy, it's only temporary. I can't throw my grandchildren under the bus, even if all I can do is show them the ways out, and keep the doors open for them. I must be very careful, in fear of losing them to the cult. I have several ex-Mormons who's Mormon children will not let them be with the Mormon grandchildren. One friend recently re-joined the cult and is paying tithing, so she can try to rescue her relationship with her TBM granddaughter. I've already lost a TBM niece, who committed suicide at BYU, and a TBM nephew, who was gay, and killed himself, leaving a family behind. Two horrible losses! It's not worth the gamble, to play with the Mormon cult.

It's a whole lot easier, though, to let the mean Mormons who are abusing and shunning us "stew in their own juice"--because I don't care about them. But I can't give up on the ones I love.

next time I go in as I think that these are great replies.

I also like "a separate peace." With all the negative that impacted my life from mormonism, and as much as some people think I'm just an older bitter exmormon (I don't talk about it with people except those who are exmormon and want to talk about it) I've found that separate peace. Who ever thought that I would be best friends with my "husband" after what we went through? That the guy I wished I had married would come back into my life and we'd be able to maintain a long-term relationship.

When I posted about "I'm ready to die" on other threads--it is more about I'm not afraid to die. My purpose is to stay as long as I can as my son needs me (and my daughter needs me, too, but my son does the most). I've lived with a purpose to take care of my children for YEARS now. But life has handed me some really wonderful things since I chose to leave mormonism. I could NEVER have anticipated what has happened in my life. And I had to leave mormonism to find that.

I've come to the realization that some people that have left the church never experienced a single negative experience from members, leaders, their doctrine and the corp. There are times that I wished that I felt that way. Like others, I tried really hard to fit into the perfect Mormon mould, but it never worked for me. Do you know how many times that I attempted to figure out why other temple attending patrons felt so groovy in the temple and I felt out of place, if not a foreigner?

I was so relieved to find similar stories of people despising the entire temple experience. That's been very helpful to me in my recovery.

The church works great for a certain type of person that is comfortable living within the shadow of a facade.

I didn’t have any negative experiences, but I think that made for a bigger shelf collapse. Once I saw the cracks in the facade, where there was supposed to be no cracks, it all crumbled.

The church is a cult, like the cargo cults of the Pacific islands. They think that if they follow the formula of what worked once, maybe a box of goodies will fall from the sky. The church is a technology for accessing the divine, but it’s not that special. Other religions are just as good.

They have no idea how their technology works. Otherwise, they would improve it. No, to them it’s magic. Like the loin cloth wearing jungle dweller with modern gadgets. Or Dieter Uchtdorf with a smart phone. The belief system has functionality, but it’s too expensive and too buggy. They have no motivation to discover why it or spiritual practices in general work.

But what do I care? The church I grew up in is gone. Cynicism and unbelief have taken over the top ranks, which you can see by their desperate control measures.

I’m wondering if those are the people who go to the likes of John Dehlin, and the rest of us come here. I noticed that too, when watching mormon stories. I don’t remember anyone who seemed indignant, or really passionate about anything; no one was talking about spiritual abuse, coercion, cult mind control, corruption, unchristlike behaviour disturbing them and giving them a wake up call. Perhaps there are some like that and I haven’t seen them. But what you said just really struck me.

I thought about my older brother, who rebelled as a teenager and left the church. He went back after a stroke in his 40s to a singles ward in Ogden (he lives in Brigham). He bought a new suit and some scriptures and the bishop asked him to not come to that ward, to go to his home ward. He never went back.

This was typical treatment we all had.

I just asked my younger sister if she can think of anything positive that came from being a mormon growing up. She said, "Hell no!!"

Even my active sister would tell me it has been a negative. Her kids would tell you, "Hell no!" Her youngest son told me he had served his sentence. They hate mormons.

As I've stated, my daughter is the only grandchild/great grandchild who is mormon.

For my entire family, it has been very damaging.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2019 11:45AM by cl2.

Me too. And I wonder how exactly someone escapes all this horrible stuff in mormonism.(?) I remember a couple of years before I even started questioning it, and I was a tbm, I once commented in response to gossip about someone leaving the church: “Who knows, perhaps they felt like they had just done their time”. Lol. The words were out before I knew it. And I thought to myself: So...I view this as being like a prison sentence then?!

This thing with Dehlin makes me feel like I have to defend my feelings about leaving mormonism. Everyone is different. We didn't love the church while we were active. We don't want someone telling us that "this" is the right way to deal with our feelings about it.

And anger is a good thing. Everything doesn't have to be "sweet."

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everything doesn't
> have to be "sweet."

Only in Mormonism it does.