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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 21, 2019 10:28PM

Poverty and homelessness are there to show you the defects in your thinking. Unless it’s in SLC because Mormons have all the answers.

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Posted by: FelixNLI ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 02:19AM

Sad! I have been studying homelessness for some time and find it is a complicated subject with no easy solutions. Most come from bad family situations. Many have some form of mental illness and often drug addicted. I believe that many can be helped but there doesn't seem to be the public will to do much about it.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 02:40AM

Maybe SLC is handing out tickets in order to track the homeless. Once sufficient residency is established, resources can be spent on them. Earlier efforts turned into a free-for-all that attracted homeless from all over the country.

Too bad they can’t use eminent domain to set up halfway houses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2019 02:41AM by babyloncansuckit.

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 08:56AM

"Too bad they can’t use eminent domain to set up halfway houses"

Careful what -you- wish for..

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 09:47AM

Once the tissue and organ rejection problem is solved, the issue of homelessness will resolve itself.

Organ banks will be set up and "... Send'em to the organ bank!" will become the standard for punishment for being found guilty of a sufficiently grievous crime. And the continually growing number of old folk, most of whom could always find use for a new liver, will easily get Cronic Homelessness declared a crime worthy of the organ banks.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 02:17PM

Your typically humorous post comes very close to the theme of a dystopian novel by Kazuo Ishiguro, the Nobel-winning British author, entitled Never Let Me Go. They made a movie out of it.

We'll expect a Return and Report!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2019 02:25PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 04:24PM

I got my inspiration from a sci-fi novel I read as a teen, about a human-settled world that got cut off from intercourse with the rest of humanity and came to be governed by a cabal of old farts who wanted to live forever. There were other twists and turns to it that are coming back to me as I think about it, but the main thing was being able to implant any organ without fear of it being rejected, and so all the old people wanted a plentiful supply of organs, so they kept making more and more crimes worthy of The Organ Banks, until jay-walking was proposed...s

Not to worry, though, the plucky young heroes came through in the end and the Old Farts were toppled! Yay!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 04:26PM

I've always thought that being homeless was probably a real adventure, but I'm just not disciplined enough to pull it off...

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Posted by: nolongerangry ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 10:05AM

If people really wanted to, they could avoid being homeless, etc. No one is making them be homeless. Just saying.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 10:34AM

"Homelessness starts in the home."

--Ralph Bader Ginsberg, Ruth's homeless cousin

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 03:31PM

nolongerangry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If people really wanted to, they could avoid being
> homeless, etc. No one is making them be homeless.
> Just saying.


So you are suggesting that homelessness is their fault ?

That would mean that the homeless made that choice. This

sounds too much like victim blaming. I can understand those

who are homeless because of mental problems but what about the

rest? Care to explain?

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 04:01PM

nolongerangry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If people really wanted to, they could avoid being
> homeless, etc. No one is making them be homeless.
> Just saying.
===============================

Cool, so - guess, why is it more people are suddenly making the choice to be homeless

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Posted by: FelixNLI ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 10:52AM

Many, maybe even most of them don't want to work. Minimum wage jobs isn't enough to pay a living wage. They can often make much better hourly rate standing on street corner with cardboard sign so why take a job. I believe slipping them a 20 is doing them more harm than good.

Making living on the street illegal and then providing some living alternatives for them where they have opportunity for self improvement and are expected to produce and give back may be an answer. I don't know, each one is different.

I have gone out on the streets of Seattle and elsewhere and asked them many questions. Most have come from poverty or bad home situations. Many have learning disabilities, mental illness and drug addictions. I believe most all need interdiction of some sort or the problem is going to continue to grow.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 11:07AM

who bear the institutional memory of the civilization --

-- Was this a thing (homelessness) say, in the 50's - 60's?


(To European/Asian area compadres -- is this a thing there?)


-- If it is a thing now and it wasn't then -- why, do you reckon?
(Same question if there are areas today without this phenomenon)

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Posted by: FelixNLI ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 11:48AM

Homelessness has always been with us. I think there were more homeless in the early part of the 20th century. I believe EOD's quote by Ralph Bader Ginsberg hits the mark pretty accurately.
Many if not most of life's ills begin with bad parenting or bad home situation.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 01:09PM

FelixNLI Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many if not most of life's ills begin with bad
> parenting or bad home situation.
================================

Does seem the case. Have to be taught how to fish - optimally by someone who knows how
(Thankful TSCC builds shopping malls where the homeless may hang out)

https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/why_graph_21.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/US_yearly_timeline_of_people_experiencing_homelessness.gif/400px-US_yearly_timeline_of_people_experiencing_homelessness.gif

Hard to find unbiased or complete date, and raw numbers are not useful.

In the 70's there was a movement by do-gooders to free folks from the protections of mental asylums, and states (USA) seized upon it as a way to shut down expensive asylums and save big. Those services became unavailable.

https://www.nap.edu/openbook/18613/xhtml/images/p35.jpg

Wonder where they went.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 02:19PM

I'm not sure how I missed this. As I redundantly wrote below, it is right.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 01:31PM

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

May be right. If not mistaken, foster care was a solution to get rid of expensive orphanages.

Seems every generation has a five-pound block of cheddar cheese, and every generation slices the cheese up and arranges pieces in a different order, believing they've created something entirely new. Oh look, I made a bunny rabbit. Maybe if keep slicing and dicing and arranging, it'll become gold. You never know.

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 11:51AM

Out of curiosity, this is directed to the world travelers.

Are there homeless problems like we have in the west coast cities of LA, SF, Portland, Seattle etc. in European cities like Rome, Paris, Stockholm, Madrid, etc.?

How do those places address the situation?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 02:12PM

Wow. There are some great questions in this thread. I'm going to take a stab at answering them.

First, Dr. No on the history of homelessness in the last several decades. There was always some homelessness in the US--spectacularly so in the Great Depression--but it is a lot worse now than in the 1950s and 1960s. In part this was because the rate of economic growth was higher and demand for labor stronger, so good jobs were easier to obtain. Also, large companies were more generous in offering healthcare, pensions, etc., so when workers fell on hard times they had more resources to keep themselves afloat. There is much less support available today.

Also very important, however, was a change in policy towards the mentally ill. In the 1960s a large proportion of those people were institutionalized. But the US grew uncomfortable with that (see One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), thinking that locking people away was evil and, naively, that if the mentally ill were released into the community they would be nurtured and supported. So laws were changed, institutions closed, and people released. But it turned out that communities weren't interested in letting the ill into their homes and civic centers--and, equally important, a lot of the newly homeless didn't want to return to shelters or halfway houses anyway. So they stayed on the streets even as the US grew more parsimonious politically, which meant that going back to the old system of state institutionalization was off the table.

Now Dr. No and tumwater on the international comparison. The situation overseas differs widely from country to country. There is a lot of homelessness in poor countries like Indonesia or Malaysia or India or Nigeria or Egypt or South Africa. But where economic growth is really strong the problem is smaller, and in countries that have a strong family structure the jobless and mentally ill are generally cared for by their families.

In the rich world, the US represents the extreme case. Virtually all wealthy countries spend more on the homeless and the mentally ill as a proportion of per capital GDP. That stems largely from cultural differences: the Scandinavian countries, Japan, etc., emphasize community more and hence feel a stronger obligation to the downtrodden whereas the US places greater value on individual responsibility--which, of course, many homeless are incapable of exercising. (It is of naturally easier to feel empathy for people with the same ethnic and cultural background, which facilitates better care in Japan and the Scandinavian countries than in a melting pot like the United States.)

So individualism, weaker family structures, tight-fisted government policy, and cultural complexity combine to produce a Third World level of homelessness in the United States. Europeans and people from rich Asian countries view the situation here as morally intolerable.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 03:21PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------

> So individualism, weaker family structures,
> tight-fisted government policy, and cultural
> complexity combine to produce a Third World level
> of homelessness in the United States. Europeans
> and people from rich Asian countries view the
> situation here as morally intolerable.
===============================

Really like this because can get the mind around it (and it is not in any way redundant!). Seems to put together the puzzle. Easy to doubt oneself e.g. "gosh, seems more homeless now than when was a kid" is very easily dismissed because each sees a very thin slice of the whole, and the changes happen over many seasons, and the tendency is to want to not believe what one sees

Am no economist but overall, in the USA seems far less money available in the general circulation than when was a kid. Life is harder and harsher.

Or maybe just grew up.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 03:30PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------

> It is of naturally easier to feel empathy for people with the same ethnic and cultural background, which facilitates better care in Japan and the Scandinavian countries than in a melting pot like the United States.

===============================

This is especially incisive

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 07:10PM

And yet, if you go to downtown Tokyo, you will see homeless people. They have petitioned through the courts for the right to be homeless and not be harassed by the police.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/homelessness-in-japan

I've seen it myself. But yes, you are right in that they are treated better and homogeneity probably has a lot to do with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2019 07:11PM by Devoted Exmo.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 08:08PM

True. Stimulated by your post, I just did a simple web search.

I don't know the sources well enough to evaluate them but they seem roughly correct. According to Japan's Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, in a deep recession in 2001 the total number of Japanese homeless was 25,000, which fell to 19,000 in better economic times in 2007 and to 7,508 in 2014. By contrast, HUD puts the total number in the United States in 2018 at 553,000.

Taken at face value, that puts the US level at about 80X the Japanese level. Adjusting for population, the American level is 30X higher than Japan per capita. That seems ballpark reasonable to me; anecdotally, I have never seen anything in Japan like the huge concentrations of homeless in the big American cities.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 05:36PM

The rat race is over. The rats won.

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Posted by: shylock ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 03:23PM

What even makes it more morally intolerable is that the more religious the state (Evangelical/Mormon) the more ill treated the mentally and disabled . From the TBMs at work, homeless people are disgraces that need to be completely ignored because if they are not willing to pull themselves up by their boot straps... why should anyone else bother to help them. I have often heard also that the MORmON church should be in charge of charity... not the government... can't make this stuff up!

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Posted by: Topper ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 04:20PM

That is exactly the point, and the reason I posted this particular video.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 05:45PM

Organized religion as a home for prejudice? I suspect Groucho Marx stole his famous line from Jesus: I have no interest in joining a religion that would have me as a member.

They can’t live their “Come unto Christ” message so their religion is useless. Could Rusty fix that? No, he’s part of the problem.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv aka. Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 05:22PM

I'm coming out for this one. Since vacating the board a few months ago, I've spent my time hanging out with the 12 tribes under the polar ice cap. I figured I should while the ice cap is still there and they still have a place to call home.

This subject is interesting and makes me think a couple of things. I remember reading something about a homeless man and a well to do business man which has always stuck with me. It goes something like this....

A business man passes a homeless man sitting on the sidewalk begging. Is the business man there to provide the homeless man an opportunity to learn how to be successful? Or is the homeless man there to provide an opportunity for the business man to learn how to be compassionate?

My best friend since 5th grade (that was 48 years ago) died in his mid forties from years of drug and alcohol abuse. He quit alcohol for a long period, and we always stayed in touch and met up through the years. In spite of his drug use during those years, he did OK and we enjoyed each others company as old friends.

About 2 years before he died, he showed up at my house (4 hour drive from his). He had gone back to drinking heavily and never did stop using any drug he could get. I was divorced and raising a teen son and daughter in my home. He knew his life was in ruin and asked if he could come and live with me and clean up. I told him I was raising a my kids, one a 13 year old girl, and I couldn't have a drug addicted alcoholic in my house. I said if he cleaned up first, I would be open to revisiting the topic. He promised he would clean up after moving in and offed me his entire unemployment check if he could. I told him I didn't need or want the money...I wanted him to clean up and then we could talk about it. I ended up driving him to his cousins house about an hour away, and that was the last time I saw him, other than in an urn at the funeral I organized for him two years later.

I still think about this and the little story above. Why did we end up such good friends for all our years? What were we to learn from each other? Was he to learn from me how to be like the successful business man and have a stable life without substance abuse, a good job, income, home, etc? Or was I to learn from him how to practice real love and compassion to my fellow man, even the lowest of them?

I often feel like I missed my opportunity and could have done better. I've had dreams that he is in and he never speaks, he just looks at me with sense of sadness, like why didn't I help?

I'm tearing up as I type, so I'll go back to the ice cap for now.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 07:08PM

You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

Don't ever "grow up."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 08:31PM

Roy, that is a superb, touching post.

I think you made the right decision. I am the sort of snowflake who feels terrible when seeing homeless people. I try to buy them a hamburger and coke when I can and sometimes give them small amounts of cash. That isn't enough to appease my conscience, both in the sense of offering so little help and because I worry about giving cash to people who may spend it unwisely. But I try to make a difference.

I have on occasion let friends who were down on their luck stay in my/our home for weeks or even a few months. But we always, ALWAYS draw the line at our family. If there was ever any risk for the children, there was no way I would take someone in. I might provide some cash to help the person get started again, but that is it.

Remember Ed Smart. Was he right to bring Mitchell to his home at the expense of Elizabeth? No. We summon children into this world, we owe them everything. The situation you describe is tragic, but morality requires tough decisions and the protection of your children above all else.

That you worry about this indicates that you are a fine, ethical man. I'm sorry that those characteristics also bring the pain of introspection and regret. But I think you did what was right.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: August 23, 2019 12:41PM

Thank you Lot's Wife. As usual, your words ring sharp and true, as well as bring comfort.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: August 24, 2019 12:56AM

I'm sorry about your friend.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 05:42PM

> so I'll go back to
> the ice cap for now.


Don't you dare, or you're gonna have ME staring at you in your dreams, which will transform them to nightmares, because I've grown my hair out and if you put a tomahawk in my hands, it'll be screaming fits til dawn...

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 06:01PM

If you put a tomahawk steak in my hand, I'll stick around and scream with you until the steak is seared to perfection! No hair on the steak though!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 06:08PM

It's a deal, if you'll admit that I have no control over how many hairs on my head start to feel alienated and detached...

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 06:26PM

Speaking of alienated and detached hairs.......

A guy walks into a barber for a hair cut and the barber notices he only has three hairs on the top of his head.

Barber: Hi, what can I do for you today?

Customer: Take a little off the top and part it on the side.

So the barber trims up the top, but when he tries to part it, one of the hairs falls out.

Barber: I'm so sorry sir, when I tried to part your hair, one fell out.

Customer: Ugh...well, part it in the middle then.

When the barber tries to part it in middle, another hair falls out leaving only one.

Barber: Oh no, I am so sorry, another hair fell out!

Customer: Ahhh!! Fine! Just leave it messy!!!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 06:44PM

Roy, we love having you around.

Buy more steaks, please.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 07:01PM

Honestly, I do miss the dog's witty retorts and your impeccably knowledgeable posts. I enjoy getting in on those from both the witty side and the intelligent side.....which is not to say that the dog is not intelligent and you're not witty :)

Now, enough reuniting, how about my original reply regarding this topic? What do you make of it?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 22, 2019 08:09PM

Oh damn. Now I'll have to read your post!

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: August 23, 2019 11:15PM

The guy in this video looks like he could take orders at McDonalds or could even mow lawns and at least start climbing out of the whole he is in. Instead, he complains about having an empty wallet and being moved-on by the police so much he can't get any sleep. He doesn't look particularly tired. He looks like he doesn't have a care in the world and talks about hanging out with friends (probably other homeless people living on the streets). Maybe he does worry, but not enough to talk about what he plans to do to change his situation. I was once homeless and had mental problems (diagnosed clinical depression) that put me there. I didn't complain about the lack of accommodations for my living area in public places. I never asked a stranger for money. I found a homeless shelter to sleep in at night and shower in the morning, and looked for work during the day time until I found work and got treatment for the depression. It's hard to feel too sorry for this guy although we don't know everything about him. But it is up to him to change his situation. He needs to talk about what he plans to do to to improve his situation for the better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2019 11:16PM by azsteve.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 23, 2019 11:29PM

I did think he has a pretty stylish haircut.

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Posted by: different7 ( )
Date: August 24, 2019 10:36PM

Maybe not everyone wants a brick and mortar home. At one time, the Plains Indians roamed America freely and they could go anywhere they wanted. Were they homeless?
Now, you're treated like something is wrong with you if you live outside. There's no space set aside in cities and towns for those who want to do so. Instead, police come in and raid and tear apart encampments.
If you don't have the money to maintain a home that fits modern building codes in this age of absurd rent and property values, where exactly are you supposed to live?
If you try to have a standard of living far below the "norm", you're practically treated like a criminal.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: August 24, 2019 10:49PM

From watching the video is he claiming that he never learned anything in school ?

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