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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I'm not defending the church but I think the church today would be unrecognizable to the Mormons of yesteryears.
I went looking for the GC talks around the time of The Great Depression.
https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1929sa
https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1930sa
https://scripturetools.net/periodicals/conference-report#
In the October 1930 Heber Grant warned about Mormons becoming overly concerned with wealth. His successors made his warnings a reality.
The 20th Century was a slow change from something more concerned with people's welfare to today's Mormon-obsessives' world ministries, mini-temples, McDonald's Mormonism. No wonder Rusty the Tin Man powerfully lighted pen prophet wants to eject the term "Mormon." It doesn't describe the LDS people today. It describes the LDS people of yesteryears.
I went looking for the GC talks around the time of The Great Depression.
https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1929sa
https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1930sa
https://scripturetools.net/periodicals/conference-report#
In the October 1930 Heber Grant warned about Mormons becoming overly concerned with wealth. His successors made his warnings a reality.
The 20th Century was a slow change from something more concerned with people's welfare to today's Mormon-obsessives' world ministries, mini-temples, McDonald's Mormonism. No wonder Rusty the Tin Man powerfully lighted pen prophet wants to eject the term "Mormon." It doesn't describe the LDS people today. It describes the LDS people of yesteryears.
....the same, yesterday, today and at least till the next leader gets in.
I'll have to ponderize that.
President Grant counseled the saints to avoid what had already occurred the year before.
If that ain't valuable...what is?
The Stock Market fell precipitously in April and October 1929.
Grant spoke his great wisdom in 2030.
Genius.
If that ain't valuable...what is?
The Stock Market fell precipitously in April and October 1929.
Grant spoke his great wisdom in 2030.
Genius.
It wasn't great wisdom but it was at least better than a lot of the stuff in these reports harping on tithing and the rising costs of running the church.
Today you wouldn't hear any of it including the wisdom to avoid seeking wealth.
Today you wouldn't hear any of it including the wisdom to avoid seeking wealth.
Paying tithing (even extra tithing) is today’s “get rich quick” scheme.
Well, he said a lot more than Hinckley did after 9/11. They held that broadcast memorial and there was virtually no substance in it.
Nor was there the sense of community and mutual care that was present in the Grant days.
Nor was there the sense of community and mutual care that was present in the Grant days.
Early Mormonism = community cult like Jonestown
Utah Mormonism = growing theocratical community like a small country cult
20th Century Mormonism = theocratic community of folk on the fringe of being accepted as a religion cult
21st Century Mormonism(CoJC) = No community, multinational shell corporation cult masquerading as a religion
Utah Mormonism = growing theocratical community like a small country cult
20th Century Mormonism = theocratic community of folk on the fringe of being accepted as a religion cult
21st Century Mormonism(CoJC) = No community, multinational shell corporation cult masquerading as a religion
That sounds about right.
You should be the next church historian. That would be interesting and instructive ;-)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2019 02:20PM by Soft Machine.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2019 02:20PM by Soft Machine.
Thanks Tom.
I've been recently interested in hermeneutics, well I always have been and didn't know it. It is basically attempting to find meaningful understanding across time and space in human understandings. I'm convinced we are so stuck in our own bubbles that we can't even begin to understand peoples from our human past.
For example, I recently read about a belief prolific since ancient times that things affected humans generationally that could not possibly. Mormonism is a late hold over in this regard. It holds to a belief that there is something generational in sinning "unto the fourth generation." Combine Mormonism's penchant for genealogical information, performing rituals for dead ancestors and such and you get a preservation of a sentiment that was used to justify enslaving Africans, American First Peoples, Muslims, and Jews. European colonization needed a reason to take people's liberty that was religiously and doctrinally sound.
Today it sounds crazy. After all, Joseph Smith was the killer of infant baptism and original sin right? Wrong. He was just as taken with the notion that there is something generational in sinning with his Book of Mormon fantasy. Europeans were destined by God to bring the salvation lost through a generational curse.
Cursed by God through generations of time, Mormons are trying to save them for "all eternity."
But it is a dying doctrine. Sensible people would never look on a child and blame it for something its great grandparents or even parents did. Mormons claim the same yet this centuries old understanding permeates their doctrines. The love child of a cursed generation for generations and The New and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage is cleansing past generations with temple work.
I've been recently interested in hermeneutics, well I always have been and didn't know it. It is basically attempting to find meaningful understanding across time and space in human understandings. I'm convinced we are so stuck in our own bubbles that we can't even begin to understand peoples from our human past.
For example, I recently read about a belief prolific since ancient times that things affected humans generationally that could not possibly. Mormonism is a late hold over in this regard. It holds to a belief that there is something generational in sinning "unto the fourth generation." Combine Mormonism's penchant for genealogical information, performing rituals for dead ancestors and such and you get a preservation of a sentiment that was used to justify enslaving Africans, American First Peoples, Muslims, and Jews. European colonization needed a reason to take people's liberty that was religiously and doctrinally sound.
Today it sounds crazy. After all, Joseph Smith was the killer of infant baptism and original sin right? Wrong. He was just as taken with the notion that there is something generational in sinning with his Book of Mormon fantasy. Europeans were destined by God to bring the salvation lost through a generational curse.
Cursed by God through generations of time, Mormons are trying to save them for "all eternity."
But it is a dying doctrine. Sensible people would never look on a child and blame it for something its great grandparents or even parents did. Mormons claim the same yet this centuries old understanding permeates their doctrines. The love child of a cursed generation for generations and The New and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage is cleansing past generations with temple work.
The church of today doesn't even resemble the church of my childhood 50 or 60 years ago.
Years ago I happened upon some books that my great-grandfather owned that my mother must have inherited (long since gone to a landfill probably). They were all LDS books and most were from the 1930s and 40s.
I can't recall the names of the authors, but I think they were conference talks or similar addresses to members. What I do remember is how dead set the speakers were against any form of community-based group pensions or insurance such as Social Security. If Mormons wanted help, they needed to beg the church for it, not rely on the nonjudgmental, open hand of the godless government.
I am sure if that generation could see the church of today they would be spitting nails.
Years ago I happened upon some books that my great-grandfather owned that my mother must have inherited (long since gone to a landfill probably). They were all LDS books and most were from the 1930s and 40s.
I can't recall the names of the authors, but I think they were conference talks or similar addresses to members. What I do remember is how dead set the speakers were against any form of community-based group pensions or insurance such as Social Security. If Mormons wanted help, they needed to beg the church for it, not rely on the nonjudgmental, open hand of the godless government.
I am sure if that generation could see the church of today they would be spitting nails.
MarkJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The church of today doesn't even resemble the
> church of my childhood 50 or 60 years ago.
=========================
Or even ten years.
One thing for sure:
Besides the physical/formating/institutional/genuflectional changes, there is now a real sense of psychological brittleness and vulnerability, a sense of being vastly outnumbered and under siege in danger of imminent annihilation. So dad (clearly intensely bothered - that is what his face betrays) complains mildly in passing about the changes - says the members are far less caring and there is less community - but does not complain too loudly and quickly changes subject. Other TBM family members no longer like bragging on their golden gospel with heathenites.
Two things for certain, stand by for further changes and boy, isn't this entertaining.
Got Popcorn?
-------------------------------------------------------
> The church of today doesn't even resemble the
> church of my childhood 50 or 60 years ago.
=========================
Or even ten years.
One thing for sure:
Besides the physical/formating/institutional/genuflectional changes, there is now a real sense of psychological brittleness and vulnerability, a sense of being vastly outnumbered and under siege in danger of imminent annihilation. So dad (clearly intensely bothered - that is what his face betrays) complains mildly in passing about the changes - says the members are far less caring and there is less community - but does not complain too loudly and quickly changes subject. Other TBM family members no longer like bragging on their golden gospel with heathenites.
Two things for certain, stand by for further changes and boy, isn't this entertaining.
Got Popcorn?
Another example thought of:
Missionaries happened by a couple times over the last five years; always invite them in, give them cookies & refreshment, am very civil (remembering what a s#it deal it was) and enjoy playing the wide-eyed "Joseph Who?" ignoramous who thanks them but politely and passively declines follow-on gospel lessons.
Well, there is no fight in them. They are almost apologetic.
Gone is the hubris, the we're-called-by-The-Almighty-to-save-the-heathen-filled-world-you-poor-hopeless-ignorant-sot self-righteousness these (and I) once had. It is a huge difference.
And if observe, there is this same hopeless defeat in how they ride their bicycles, in how they carry themselves, in how they walk. This is new. It wasn't this way.
It's a welcome change, but there is also something a little sad about the stooped shoulders and the tail-between-the-legs demeanor of these duped young people.
I am buoyed by knowing the smart ones will figure it out and free themselves.
Missionaries happened by a couple times over the last five years; always invite them in, give them cookies & refreshment, am very civil (remembering what a s#it deal it was) and enjoy playing the wide-eyed "Joseph Who?" ignoramous who thanks them but politely and passively declines follow-on gospel lessons.
Well, there is no fight in them. They are almost apologetic.
Gone is the hubris, the we're-called-by-The-Almighty-to-save-the-heathen-filled-world-you-poor-hopeless-ignorant-sot self-righteousness these (and I) once had. It is a huge difference.
And if observe, there is this same hopeless defeat in how they ride their bicycles, in how they carry themselves, in how they walk. This is new. It wasn't this way.
It's a welcome change, but there is also something a little sad about the stooped shoulders and the tail-between-the-legs demeanor of these duped young people.
I am buoyed by knowing the smart ones will figure it out and free themselves.
Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, there is no fight in them. They are almost
> apologetic.
> Gone is the hubris, the
> we're-called-by-The-Almighty-to-save-the-heathen-f
> illed-world-you-poor-hopeless-ignorant-sot
> self-righteousness these (and I) once had. It is
> a huge difference.
>
> And if observe, there is this same hopeless defeat
> in how they ride their bicycles, in how they carry
> themselves, in how they walk. This is new. It
> wasn't this way.
>
I've observed this in my area. They ride as if they are defeated. I've also seen them riding in tight circles as if making donuts. For young boys, this is normal. For 18 year old, not so much.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, there is no fight in them. They are almost
> apologetic.
> Gone is the hubris, the
> we're-called-by-The-Almighty-to-save-the-heathen-f
> illed-world-you-poor-hopeless-ignorant-sot
> self-righteousness these (and I) once had. It is
> a huge difference.
>
> And if observe, there is this same hopeless defeat
> in how they ride their bicycles, in how they carry
> themselves, in how they walk. This is new. It
> wasn't this way.
>
I've observed this in my area. They ride as if they are defeated. I've also seen them riding in tight circles as if making donuts. For young boys, this is normal. For 18 year old, not so much.
If people didn't like the pre-1990 endowment ceremony, they really wouldn't like the yet older endowment ceremony. There used to be an oath of vengeance against the United States government. The blood-oath / death threats were very explicit about tearing your guts out of your body so that the birds could feed on them. Those probably weren't the good old days.
I believe they tried to take care of those guts more than they do today. At least back then they didn't make good on tearing them out. I don't believe they were good old days. I just think that in the face of The Great Depression they probably took care of their own better than today?
The church probably did take care of their own more in past generations than they do now. The relationship of mormons to the rest of society has changed quite a bit in the last ninety years. Back then, the mormon church was a smaller, more fringe religion that had to take care of their own if they were going to survive as a religion.
Somewhere between the '60's and the '80's, Mormonism became more mainstream as average people started seeing that mormon leadership positions were relatively easy to attain and that there were opportunities for personal advancement in local communities (even outside of Utah) if you were a church member or local church leader. Mormon men had new business opportunities in their associations with other church members and more access to attractive single women. The women gained a new means of having more control over their own lives. As long as they let the man lead the family, they could always go to the Bishop if he stepped out of line and the Bishop could put him back in line through threats of ostracism from his new found support system. Eventually, church leaders figured out that they could milk the members of whatever they could get from them, and that these church members wouldn't leave. So the church went from being more of a small club to being a large institution that made a lot of money for the royalty at the top. Those at the top see little reason to share their new found wealth. They are so removed from the ordinary members that they can't even see their own hypocracy when hoarding billions of dollars while threatening the regular members with damnation and ostracism if they do not pay tithing. When you add that to the fact that they are tax-exempt, is there any wonder why the church is probably worth around $100 billion? They buy real estate and pay for new shopping malls for themselves, but give little in real charity. They don't even invest in local communities outside of building Mormon meeting houses and Temples, tools to bring greater financial returns to themselves. If the mormon church really cared about its members, they would educate everyone on more than just correlated religious topics that do little to prepare anyone to engage properly with their own lives.
Somewhere between the '60's and the '80's, Mormonism became more mainstream as average people started seeing that mormon leadership positions were relatively easy to attain and that there were opportunities for personal advancement in local communities (even outside of Utah) if you were a church member or local church leader. Mormon men had new business opportunities in their associations with other church members and more access to attractive single women. The women gained a new means of having more control over their own lives. As long as they let the man lead the family, they could always go to the Bishop if he stepped out of line and the Bishop could put him back in line through threats of ostracism from his new found support system. Eventually, church leaders figured out that they could milk the members of whatever they could get from them, and that these church members wouldn't leave. So the church went from being more of a small club to being a large institution that made a lot of money for the royalty at the top. Those at the top see little reason to share their new found wealth. They are so removed from the ordinary members that they can't even see their own hypocracy when hoarding billions of dollars while threatening the regular members with damnation and ostracism if they do not pay tithing. When you add that to the fact that they are tax-exempt, is there any wonder why the church is probably worth around $100 billion? They buy real estate and pay for new shopping malls for themselves, but give little in real charity. They don't even invest in local communities outside of building Mormon meeting houses and Temples, tools to bring greater financial returns to themselves. If the mormon church really cared about its members, they would educate everyone on more than just correlated religious topics that do little to prepare anyone to engage properly with their own lives.
ETB and being Secretary of Agriculture. It was a nod.
95 years ago my great-grandfather was still a member of the First Presidency. For some reason I find that weird.
90 years ago my great grandfather was probably considered for apostleship. If he would have been made one he would have been a "prophet."
"Hugh B. Brown was close to the leadership of the Church from the days when he came to the favorable attention of Elder Heber J. Grant in England in 1904 and was married to Zina Card by President Joseph F . Smith in 1908. There are reports that he was considered for an apostleship in the 1930's, but his position as first chairman of the Utah State Liquor Commission made appointment inadvisable . Close and sustained relationship s with such Mormon leaders as J. Reuben Clark , Jr., Henry D. Moyle , Albert E . Bowen , Harold B . Lee and Presidents Grant and McKay preceded the call which finally came two decades later."
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N01_70.pdf
But he was probably not as good at climbing their ladder.
"...to acquire the social graces which befitted the spouse of a granddaughter of Brigham Young; the Brown children enjoy telling how "it took Mother two years to teach Dad to change his socks."
Too much naked ambition until his later years.
"Men without humor tend to forget their source, lose sight of their goal . . . . "
"No one deserves to believe unless he has served an apprenticeship in doubt."
He was eclipsed by humorless men who never served an apprenticeship in doubt.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2019 11:20AM by Elder Berry.
"Hugh B. Brown was close to the leadership of the Church from the days when he came to the favorable attention of Elder Heber J. Grant in England in 1904 and was married to Zina Card by President Joseph F . Smith in 1908. There are reports that he was considered for an apostleship in the 1930's, but his position as first chairman of the Utah State Liquor Commission made appointment inadvisable . Close and sustained relationship s with such Mormon leaders as J. Reuben Clark , Jr., Henry D. Moyle , Albert E . Bowen , Harold B . Lee and Presidents Grant and McKay preceded the call which finally came two decades later."
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N01_70.pdf
But he was probably not as good at climbing their ladder.
"...to acquire the social graces which befitted the spouse of a granddaughter of Brigham Young; the Brown children enjoy telling how "it took Mother two years to teach Dad to change his socks."
Too much naked ambition until his later years.
"Men without humor tend to forget their source, lose sight of their goal . . . . "
"No one deserves to believe unless he has served an apprenticeship in doubt."
He was eclipsed by humorless men who never served an apprenticeship in doubt.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2019 11:20AM by Elder Berry.