I read a book on micro concussions. I read of a retired NFL player envisioning the NLF being "touch" football. I've read about how colleges are creating "virtual practicing" using virtual reality to avoid practice injury.

But the hits roll on and on and on.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/2-high-school-football-players-die-in-separate-on-field-accidents-across-nation/ar-AAHoKin?ocid=spartandhp

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/college-football-joe-theismann-calls-player-after-gruesome-leg-injury/ar-AAHqDDT?ocid=spartandhp

As a teenager I was attracted to the outfits. The chess like movement of strong men also seemed appealing and now it is appalling. The money involved in football and the mental deterioration of the players not to mention their injuries seems suicidal. Suiciding is bad unless it involves doing it slowly over time and bonus points for making money and doing something you love aggressively.

But I don't have to support it. Like Mormonism it is bad idea that millions of people find attractive. Not me. Not anymore.

I hate when people bring up reality!

Next you're likely to come out against over-eating and/or drinking & driving!

Where's it going to end.!?!

I'm just thinking of the beasts and the children.

We are all animals.

I’ve always rued the fact that football, not baseball, is America’s sport, both in popularity and, more sadly, symbolically.

Stats and fantasy leagues have turned both baseball and football into treat human players as stats machines.

Yes!

Athletes to fantasists are nothing more than real life video-game avatars creating numbers.

(Not a fan of the “analytics” fans of baseball. In my imagination they all look like Jonah Hill. I’m at the point where if I hear “launch angle” one more time, I will do to the broadcast what I do every time I hear A-Rod, click the box for “ballpark” sound.)

So no tailgating? No putting the hammer down? No Big Red? He's a mormon you know? Plus there's the BYU player on the team. I just think you may be over reacting. BYU is 2 and O in OT wins this year.

Rethink this madness EB.

Anon..Chief's fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rethink this madness EB.

I wish I could. When I believed I actually prayed The Chiefs would go to the Super bowl. But like Mormonism in the sweetness of their ripe red apple lies a rotten core.

Well your prayers may be answered this year. Just messing with you..as a TBM BYU coed..I had mused whether God had actually helped the Coug's win the National title in the 80's. Alas, I was an idiot.

Anon...Chief's Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had mused
> whether God had actually helped the Coug's win the
> National title in the 80's.

I God had.

Since when have we cared about men’s health?

We’ve been sending men off to be maimed or die in war for thousands of years. We call them heroes.

There are many dangerous occupations in which men are injured or die. I had a fellow logger killed soon after I left to my mission. He certainly made less than nfl players.

How many will boycott lumber?

Who mentioned a boycott?

? Did you go thru a half-time recovery program?

No luckily I have never been a card charging member of football fanaticism.

Thank you for these articles, Elder Berry. I will see if I can get my daughter and her TBM husband to read these. They have been very stubborn and controlling, in having my 8-year-old grandson play TACKLE football.

My grandson is good at soccer, baseball, and basketball, and loves those sports, and has been very happy, so far...

But...my grandson's Mormon grandparents and Mormon uncles are BYU football fanatics, and they all played football until their missions, and the TBM grandma has been president of the "Booster's Club", and they have pushed my little guy into playing TACKLE football at age 8. They have regaled him with hand-me-down real-deal football jerseys, and helmets that are too big. The local high school football-pushers give the kids pizza parties, and make banners for the little dudes to run through, when they run onto the field. Their mothers carry them off the field, crying, when they get hurt. After two games, I could no longer watch this slaughter of babes, perpetuated by blood-thirsty adults. With the last injury, when everyone was cheering when the writhing little boy was being carried off the field, I got up and walked out, giving my grandson's Mormon relatives a frown and a thumb's down. It should have been the finger.

I have tried to reason with my daughter and SIL, but they won't even read the articles about brain injuries. They mentioned that the pushers were having difficulty recruiting enough team-members, and have had to combine some of the teams. Even with the waning of kid football, and all the bad publicity--they continue to allow my grandson to be in harm's way. It is so unnecessary!

It breaks my heart!

My little guy thinks he's a hero, in his uniform. He's a bright student, with a good brain, a healthy intact body, a charming personality, a pleasant disposition, a bright future--for now.

I pray every night that he will stop playing football--please, God, stop the madness!

I'm sorry for your losing to this madness.

And to make this on topic by way of sarcasm...

Your grandson has reached his age of accountability. He can decide for himself what religion he will be for the rest of his life as well as what sports he is willing to be manipulated into playing.

Football is a lot like Mormonism. Both are cultish and both will damage your brain over time.

Science caught up with tackle football. It turns out that brain injury isn’t something you just walk off. But look on the bright side. Mormonism doesn’t require a functioning brain and in fact works better without it. They would do well to incorporate severe head blows into their sacrament.

We, as a family, lost interest in football. We used to watch the Packers, but gave up on that due to the brutal nature of the sport and the incessant commercials. Soccer is the sport we watch now and follow a few teams. The game is less than 2 hours - not 3.5 hours and there is continuous action. Yes, there is some injury and I wonder about the head shots taken at full velocity. That cannot be good either.

I coached girls soccer as a parent coach in local league play for 7 years, which I started immediately after leaving Mormonism. It filled a great void. We have attended weddings of these young women. It is also a pleasure to run into them around town as they show off their children and husbands as time marches on.

I'm with Eric on this topic.

My family grew up with football; a number of my siblings played, and some played very well. We have several friends who played college ball and three who played professionally. They all complain of health problems, joint injuries that have worsened with age, mental difficulties; and one of them, a professional player whose career was cut short by a serious and permanent brain injury. If you add in the NFL's see-no-evil attitude towards rapists, wife- and girlfriend-beaters, and accused murderers, football is not as much fun as it seemed long ago. Very few of those men are role models.

Conversely, I coached many seasons of kids' soccer and, like Eric, saw the team experience and the discipline play a transformative role in kids' lives. At one point after leaving Mormonism I told people that soccer on the local fields was my religion. I also coached (an continue to coach) basketball and some track.

Yes, EB, soccer players do develop brain problems. But with regard to boys, especially if you train them not to do headers, the risks are vastly lower than in football. If you want your kids to have the team experience, it is a much better choice. With girls the situation is a little worse because knee injuries are so common in soccer, especially when puberty loosens joints and increases body weight. But for younger girls, I think the game is a great one.

All activities in life entail risks. Sports entail somewhat greater risks. The key consideration, I think, is whether the risks are contained at a reasonable level relative to the benefits. Football, in my judgment, is far beyond the point of diminishing marginal returns.

I've lost interest in football as well. The horrendous injuries, especially brain injuries, are definitely a factor.

I've also switched my affection to soccer. The games are a quick two hours. To me, the sport is more interesting to watch. I'm a fan of the English Premier League. Most games play on the U.S. east coast on Saturday and Sunday mornings or early afternoons. That works perfectly for me. I can get up, enjoy a cup of coffee, watch a game, and then get on with my day.

My own interest in the European equivalent, Rugby, has also fallen in the last few years for the same reasons. I Played rugby as a teenager. Most of us were normal-sized, normally undertrained 13 year olds. We enjoyed it and any injuries, while not infrequent, were generally minor. Rugby Union (as opposed to the similar but different Rugby League) back then was entirely played by amateurs - anyone who had played as a pro (Rugby League) was not even allowed to play, like in the Olympics of days gone by.

Now, it is played by professionals, muscle-bound, overtrained giants who regularly break one another in games which are much more brutal and physical than before. Some people are permanently damaged. Some are even killed.

I no longer watch it.

Tom in Paris

argued about my dad watching football on Sundays. I decided I would watch it with my husband as it seemed that all men liked football. I actually do enjoy watching football, but I haven't really watched in many years.

I married someone who finds football ridiculous and he'd make fun of me for watching it, so I quit. My boyfriend doesn't watch much, although I know he likes it. He will watch the Broncos now and then as he lived in Colorado for 18 years, but he doesn't watch much. He really quit watching over the issue in the last few years that might get political if I bring it up.

My son played some basketball, but he isn't aggressive and he didn't like it much. My daughter played soccer and softball, but it wasn't a big deal like other families. I let them do what they wanted to do and didn't make them do anything else except go to school.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2019 02:44PM by cl2.

I only like football when there are halftime wardrobe malfunctions.

back when I was in junior high school and high school. Mostly I tuned in to the big games, so that I wouldn't be left out of all the conversations of my classmates.

By the time I got to YBU, I wasn't really following any teams and couldn't muster much enthusiasm. But at YBU the team, under Lavell, was doing pretty good. McMahon, Young and Bosco.

While at YBU, I knew some players. I knew one linebacker (who was in one of my religion classes) who was virtually crippled by the time he graduated. Apparently, his knee ligaments were for the most part permanently destroyed. He had knee brace thingies that made it possible for him to walk around stiffly. Early twenties and he was already in this condition thanks to football.

Shortly after graduating, I followed Jim McMahon's career. He was a superhero in Chicago in the 1985 season. He was a physical wreck not long afterwards and soon couldn't even play.

Also in 1985, I remember being stuck in an airport overnight and they had a Redskins game on the TV in the lounge. I watched long enough to see Joe Theisman take a hit to his knee that bent his leg in all the wrong ways. That was the end of his career.

Although I had never been an obsessed fan, I began to realize that not only was it not particularly fun to watch a bunch of strangers/millionaires beating each other up just to move a gourd-sized inflated ball back and forth on a big field, but I also realized that, as organized activities go, football was an organized activity that was quite insane.

For the few who made it into the big leagues, I guess the big house, swimming pool and expensive cars were nice inducements. But their bling didn't do me any good. And seeing all the young guys getting crippled by the sport kind of ruined the fantasy for me.

Today I couldn't even tell you the name of one active player in the NFL or college football.

Yup. And now McMahon is suffering from memory problems and incipient dementia.

The average length of a career in the NFL is 3.3 years. So for every long-term player, there are multiple people who left after a year or two with little or no viable education and very possibly severe physical problems.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yup. And now McMahon is suffering from memory
> problems and incipient dementia.
>
> The average length of a career in the NFL is 3.3
> years. So for every long-term player, there are
> multiple people who left after a year or two with
> little or no viable education and very possibly
> severe physical problems.

Those NFL players who have the average career of 3.3 years already have at least a decade of physical beatings and deterioration under their belt too, if not longer. Tackle football can begin for kids at a very young age.

All true. I'd say that the real damage starts in the later high school years, when there is enough weight and speed to put significant stress on the body and brain; then follows through college; and then into the professional ranks.

So maybe just five or six years of real stress before going pro, but you are absolutely right. And I am waiting for more research on concussions and micro-concussions, which I think will probably prove significantly more harmful than the authorities presently admit.

Think Big Tobacco.

I have a hard time with this. I love some aspects of the game, but I have a hard time supporting it after hearing about all the health issues.

One of the guy who was in my young men's Presidency when I was growing up was a physical therapist and he said the overwhelming majority of his patients were current and former high school athletes. He said many of them are dealing with constant pain, even decades after high school, due to injuries suffered during their playing days. He always discouraged us from playing competitive sports because of what he saw in his professional life.

That is a very tough call.

I see a lot of value in competitive sports, especially team sports. You can give that to kids when they are young, say up until 10 or 12, with little risk. It gets tougher as they get older because of the forces involved, but there is value in keeping kids engaged and tired during years in which they might otherwise be playing video games or on the streets.

So we try, of course with input from the kids themselves, to strike a balance. Football is definitely out--not through decree but by introducing them to other games that they come to love before football becomes available--and I worry about soccer for girls because of their 4-6X greater risk of ACL tears relative to boys. My hope is that we can reduce the danger of lasting harm by 75-90% through the selection of sports while giving the children the benefits that come with team competition.

It's an imprecise approach, but I don't feel comfortable with binary choices and think that this is an area in which risk management rather than complete avoidance is preferable. No clear answer, though, naturally.

There are still fans, but it could be a lot more popular.

I guess there's "tennis elbow" to worry about. But with reasonable precautions, amateurs don't really need to worry about those kinds of things. Other types of tennis-related injuries are quite rare.

Pretty good workout if the players don't take too many breaks.

Great for eye-hand coordination.

You could fit a lot of tennis courts into the same area that a football field takes up.

>>One of the guy who was in my young men's Presidency when I was growing up was a physical therapist and he said the overwhelming majority of his patients were current and former high school athletes.

My brother had to have both of his hips replaced in his 60s. He always felt that his injuries and hip deterioration resulted from his high school basketball days.

I was a three sport athlete in high school, but I didn't do any of them at a very high level -- just good enough to make the team and keep me busy after school.

My orthopedic surgeon said that the biggest source of his business are injuries from skateboarding, roller blading, etc.

Paintball !!!

Practice an hour after school then a Friday night two-team two hour competition, followed by a Saturday four hour four-team competition.

Parents would have their own, more sedate, competitions.

I’m very surprised no one mentioned the sport you can play safely for a lifetime....golf. Today’s young people don’t like golf because, quite frankly, it’s “too hard” to learn. I work at a course on the weekends and we’re never busy anymore...mostly just the same old(older) regulars.

4.5 hours of riding in a cart and drinking beer, is how they see it. And no keyboard! The horror! And the rules! Just the concept that they call infractions on themselves!! Even when no one else saw it!

Golf, R&A/USGA style, pretty much requires attributes that are not consistent with life in the fast lane. It's now seen by the young as too hard to learn, too time-intensive, and over priced.

You can buy a video game for the price of one round of golf and play that vidio game 'free' thereafter, whereas the round of golf costs money every time!

But it will continue on; it's too perfect a reflection on Life its Own Self.

Rugger Wrote:
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> n/t

Yeah. The severity of the injuries, combined with teams signing domestic abusers has just turned me off.

I'm also really busy right now.

I'm not super angry about it, my interest has just waned--but I do think that the hidden costs of how the American football business operates is part of that waning.

Football is the best sport to wager on . if I don't have a bet it's not as interesting .

I experience tremendous guilt when I watch for these very reasons. Feels a little like watching gladiators and cheering for the lions.

Excellent analogy. I find in thinking about this how Christians cheering for the lions is apt. Spectate unto others is not golden. We apparently need to pick up stones to have any conscience watching something that would not be Christian behavior.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 11:07AM by Elder Berry.

I agree with that analogy, as it fits. I admit I've watched the Superbowl for the commercials, but lately, I tend to catch them on Youtube after the game. I haven't been much of a fan anyway, with the only games I attended were when I was in the marching band in high school.

I've always found the contrast between the band and the team interesting in football.

One group hones their music skills and the other tackling, intimidating, and running skills.

Bands march, football players run and hit. Funny how some places have music programs reduced and athletics has money poured into it. Which group really cares about the future for these kids?

I used to watch an old boyfriend play golf back in the singles ward. I grew to like it and my kids could never figure out how I could stand to watch it on TV.

In Utah, it isn't nearly as expensive as a lot of places. My current boufriend was quite surprised--as he golfs. He also kayaks. Now that might not beat your body up like football, but there are drawbacks for sure. And skiing. I almost forgot. You can get hurt pretty bad skiing, but not like football.

My aunt has skied forever and had to have both knees and both hips done. She is still skiing. She is 83.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 03:57PM by cl2.

Sad. Wonder if The Patriots QB has played too long as well.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/brett-favre-former-packers-qb-wonders-whether-he-played-too-long/ar-AAIwB73?ocid=spartandhp

What is surprising to me is that there are so many injuries in a game that typically has only 10 to 13 minutes of actual action (often more than two and a half hours to play those few minutes) and a season that involves less than about 20 games, 12 or 13 for college teams.

but probably the vast majority of the injuries occur during practices and drills with fellow teammates.

The competition within a team is as intense as the competition between teams.

It's a sport that consists of people throwing their bodies at each other (blocking and rushing) and tackling (grabbing somebody and throwing them to the ground).

Just for example, imagine how much damage can be done in 10 minutes of trying to stop some guy who weighs 250 lbs running at you at top speed...and your job is to stop him from getting past you. And this is just your teammate in practice...a guy whose workout consists of smashing into objects that weigh as much as a car.

It's actually a miracle when one of them retires without having sustained any major debilitating injuries.

Imagine you're a receiver. Your job is to basically run into enemy territory and catch a ball thrown to you from your quarterback...and often catching it means you have to leap as high as you can, stretching your entire body out. Meanwhile, several enemy guys have as their main job running at you and hitting you in the middle of your body while you're in mid-air, all stretched out. They want to hit you so hard that you can't keep the ball in your hands.

"Hello, 911! Yes, another back injury. Looks like it could have done permanent damage. May not ever walk again. Yes, this is Coach Buttergums again. Will we get the usual volume discount? This is the 5th ambulance call we've made this week. "

Neither my husband nor myself have ever liked American football. Instead, we’re fans of the real football games: Soccer!
Soccer athletes have to be in excellent physical condition and they are constantly moving up and down the field, except for halftime. American football is too slow and boring.

is that they need to change something to make it easier to score.

I tried to get into it at one point, and still watch the World Cup games sometimes.

But it can get boring when there's a lot of running back and forth, but nobody ever scores. Games that end 0-0 or 1-0 are much too common for my taste.

After a 0-0 game, I feel like all I did was watch a bunch of overpaid people in shorts getting aerobic exercise kicking a ball around for a couple hours.

I think they need to increase the size of the goal area. With reasonably well-matched teams, it's just too easy to defend against scoring under current rules.

Elder Berry-

Have you prayed about this?

Have you retreated to a private place, gone down on your knees, & humbly sought the guidance of Gawd's Holy Spirit, the Comforter who will 'reveal all things to you'?


Gawd isn't the author of confusion, he would not divide his believers regarding such an important matter;

Go BACK, pay your tithing & other offerings, speak with your PH leaders who love you & care about you.

Listen to them, and come back into fellowship.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you prayed about this?

Like I said before when I was Mormon I prayed BYU would be the national champions and they were!

> Have you retreated to a private place, gone down
> on your knees, & humbly sought the guidance of
> Gawd's Holy Spirit, the Comforter who will 'reveal
> all things to you'?

Yes, in my thoughts I've come to the feeling that American Football is basically a meat tenderizing factory. Who cares about their brains as long as they function well during the careers.

Parents I think now are thinking twice about placing their progeny's brains in the micro-concussion blender.

I love American football. It's just so exciting and fun to watch. Course, I am not alone. American football dominates in the US in terms of popularity over basketball, hockey, baseball, etc. And this is at all levels. European soccer is so boring...just when you think they might kick the ball in, it's taken away by the opposing team. There's rarely any control for any signficant amount of time. To much back and forth. Silly really. Now American football...it's a game of speed, skill, strength, and wit.

Ted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love American football. It's just so exciting
> and fun to watch. Course, I am not alone. American
> football dominates in the US in terms of
> popularity over basketball, hockey, baseball, etc.
> And this is at all levels. European soccer is so
> boring...just when you think they might kick the
> ball in, it's taken away by the opposing team.
> There's rarely any control for any signficant
> amount of time. To much back and forth. Silly
> really. Now American football...it's a game of
> speed, skill, strength, and wit.

No, that's rugby football. American football stops for commercial breaks every five minutes. Rugby requires far more skill, and more strength, because it doesn't rely on helmets and taking time out all the time.

Yes American Football seems to be interrupted every 10 seconds or so, with whole teams coming on and off the field while everybody buys another hot dog.

Rugby on the other hand also has incomprehensible technical rules that few understand, but at least it flows for about 30 seconds at a time.

Soccer is uninterrupted, but does suffer from teams holding possession for long periods between attempted attacks. Very few catastrophic head injuries, but some evidence of brain damage over time from all the 'heading' of the ball. One of my friends was an excellent defender - but suffered early onset dementia at about 42 years old.

I played soccer all my life and never experienced or saw a concussion. Lots of knees and ankle problems, which are survivable.

I also played Australian Rules football for a while - great, great, game to watch and play, but you do have to be careful to keep your head away from dangerous situations - the game is a collision sport played in 360 degrees - the hits can come from any direction. The players are elite athletes rather than monsters, but still suffer lots of knee injuries and cop a battering while running the equivalent of a half marathon (almost) every game.

Soccer and AFL will continue to grow at the expense of rugby codes as parents learn more about concussion risk.

yeah but American commercials are awesome too. Plus, we all know that any American NFL team (and probably Division I college team) can outmatch, head to head, any international rugby team in size, strength, endurance, and skill. That's just obvious. For instance, take the Wallabies and match them up with the Patriots. No contest. The size of the Pat's front line (Offense or Defense) would quick outpower the Wallabies. The average height of a rugby player is 6'2 and 200 lbs. on average, but American NFL players average 6'5 and 350 lbs. Sorry mate, we Yank's are bigger, stronger, faster, etc. Just the facts mate.

Ted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love American football... European soccer is so
> boring...just when you think they might kick the
> ball in, it's taken away by the opposing team.

That soccer game is a strange seed washed up on our shores.

Ted calls it boring and that it is. If you need to see a bloody game, put your system on record and watch the mess on fast-forward later, if you want.

The number of kids signing up to play American football is in falling and that is just one of the reasons I see the game declining in the coming years in favor of the world game. The MLS is a second rate league right now and there are not enough teams to make for variety of competition but that will change in the coming years. Just look how far the game has come in the last 20 years or so.

Exactly right.

US soccer has become a big-money sport--and the skill level is still far below world levels. The teams and the spectators will get better with the passage of time.

Soccer is a beautiful game. No one who watches just a highlights film of Messi could underestimate the talent and skill it requires.

Saucie and I have become devotees of Synchronized Swearing

F'ing A man! Rock on. There is nothing more beautiful than a couple who can drop a sycronized string of expletives in unison. It warms the heart, and the skill level surpasses any sport known to man (or woman). So carry on..drop those F'bomb laden tirades, while the rest of us stand back in awe and delight.

when you're ready to take things to the next level and pursue the finer arts of SPC (swearing, profanity & cursing), you'll need to spend some time at my school, where me and my friend Wilma will teach you how to do call-and-response SPC, percussive SPC and freestyle forms of funk'n'flow SPC.

I would offer some examples of each, but this is a moderated forum.

As I understand it Wally, in the funk'n'flow SPC circles at your school, you're know as Snoop Doggy Wally given your expertise in cadence and rythmn.