He doesn't care about his school work. Just doesn't see the point of homework, if we all are going to die one day. Help!! - signed concerned parent

Can't learn nuthin' in school they don't teach ya on the street!

Ah, youthful nihilism!

Add the apparent ease to answer just about any question of import via the internet and who can blame the lad?

Also, there this: "If I don't compete, I can never fail to come in first. I'll never be a loser!"

You're not likely to get actual testimony here from people who were involved in this type of thinking because participation in this forum is a form of competition. Any and all competition creates the possibility of failure and from what I've observed over the years, healthy individuals know about having their pants fall to their ankles, tripping and falling and having people 'remark' about the occurrence.

As to the "What's the point? We're all going to die..." thing, that's him just being lazy. Does he play video games? I'd say it's likely. And he likes to win, to get higher and higher scores...

I'm guessing he's just playing you, jerking you around. Is that the last year of elementary for him, or first year of junior high?

If you're serious about having THIS maverick bunch of mostly very aware people offer commentary, fill us in with some more background.

I'm guessing you're the mom.

Where's dad in all of this?

How many siblings does he have and where are they in life?

Since you're on an exmo board, tell us his stance re mormonism, and your stance.

Now that I've said that, my brothers were and are both contributors to society. Of course, my older brother no longer works (he is 66 anyway), but before he had his stroke, he always worked and spent 3 years in West Berlin before the wall came down doing translation for spying on Russian aircraft.

My dad was a teacher and my sister is a teacher. They both say my son is extremely intelligent. His teachers said he is extremely intelligent. He always did well in the classes where the teachers were supportive. In his last years in elementary (they had 6th graders in middle school and if they did that to your child, then that might be part of the problem). My son had an excellent teacher in 4th and 5th grades. He had him both years as I requested it as the teacher moved up. My son did WONDERFUL as he had a good teacher. He still talks to this teacher, as does my daughter (twins in the same class). He is the teacher who got my son really interested in computers. I wanted him to graduate and he did because I left it in his hands, but I did pay him when he went to school and let him decide if he wasn't going. He graduated. I gave him some of the power. He had to work hard that last year to graduate. I didn't want him to go get a job like his twin sister had.

He works really hard and the family he works for (they own the company) have basically adopted him as their own and he earns more than anyone else there. He could do well with coding, but he fears what changes that will make should he get a job or fears applying. He has a lot of people who follow him through linked in who are in the technology field. My boyfriend is a chemist with a high IQ and says my son is very intelligent.

I think boys are more difficult to handle. My daughter admits her brother is more intelligent than she is, but she isn't an introvert and goes for what she wants. She was just hired as a manager at her last job in Alaska and earns WELL with her apartment and food paid for while she is in Alaska and will live in Utah in the off season and work remote. She graduated with honors from college.

I would never starve my kids either. My son doesn't do well without food and that would never work and, yes, it is abuse. My "ex" used to tell me to do that if they didn't do their chores (after he had left us and left me to raise them myself). He didn't contribute much of anything for over 10 years.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 09:57AM by cl2.

Is it a real fear, or just a dismissive excuse to avoid school, and the discussion of it?

As I've told my students, "I will care on your behalf."

First, establish a consistent time and place for your child to do homework.

Your son gets "paid" with his school grades, so impose consequences for grades that are below a reasonable threshold (you know your son and his capacity best.) If his grades do not meet your expectations, then consider no after school sports or activities, and/or no electronics (TV, video games, or cell phone.) Also, no going out on school nights, and when he gets older, no car keys. I spent the second half of my freshman year with no electronics (all we had back then was TV.) I survived. I would go to my bedroom and read a book instead. My nephew lost soccer privileges. His grades improved.

Let your child equate hard work (at sometimes distasteful, or boring and seemingly useless tasks) with getting the goodies of life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 05:25AM by summer.

My jaw dropped when, one day, my second grade daughter said she wanted to be a meteorologist. What kind of second grader even knows that word.

I knew that word in 1st grade. Wound up owning two businesses in which I have zero interest, but which are lucrative.

Sigh

What does motivate him?

Hard to care with a belly full of food.

If someone will always give him what he needs, why should he care?

Some hunger would do our kids good, but is considered abusive.

Agree. At some point a person may need to experience some form of hunger to tap into their potential.

I completely understand asking what’s the point. I did that through and long past adolescence. When I’d finally had my fill of asking life’s questions, I had a lot of catching up to do.

But, in the meantime, I would extend extreme respect towards what your six grader has to say. I would talk and I would do a lot of listening and I would make it extremely clear that I was absolutely 100% interested in his perspective, that I understood what he was saying, and that I had the utmost respect for his opinion.

Of course it’s likely that his perspective will change over time. But this is your chance to be there with him and what is probably time that he’s having some very strong feelings about life. This is your chance to show him that he can count on you when he’s in the middle of dealing with life. If you’re only going to be there for him when he’s thinking and doing and being the way you want him to be, he can’t count on you.

So I would say be there with all of your mind and heart now and you’ll be invited in many times in the future and you’ll also be able to be there and fully participate in the celebration or celebrations as he experiences successes in the future.

My bet is that he knows exactly what he’s talking about he’s making a hell of a lot of sense and he deserves your time and attention. He can always do homework.

The starvation will continue until morale improves.

That's an interesting variation.

Have him study up on what he will die from first, hunger or thirst.

Then have him do some research of some people he probably would admire if he met them. Remind him they couldn't have gotten where they are if they hadn't gone to 6th grade.

I' pretty sure his parents were well out of 6th grade by the time he was born. What if you weren't? How would that affect his life. Make him think about what he's saying. Then ask him some ideas of how he's going to work around those problems.

Maybe he needs to be needed. Do you live near a dog shelter or someplace a 6th grader could do some service work?

I felt that way about math in 6th grade and through most of junior high school.

I asked adults around me what the point of doing the hard math was if I never intended to be a math teacher. (I already had a decent handle on basic math.)

I never got a decent answer. I guess that says more about the people around me than anything else. I was just told I had to do it in order to get through school.

That was not a satisfying answer.

This was because at that age, I never saw anyone actually using math for anything other than counting money to figure out whether you had enough to pay for snacks. And the hard math seemed to exist only for the purpose of giving math teachers something to do.

6th graders have no frame of reference other than the classroom for the most part. That lack of frame of reference can often make it all seem pointless. They need to see in a real and clear way how the stuff they're being told to learn has any real-world value. Most often, they're surrounded by adults who really aren't much further ahead of them in understanding things and cannot show them how certain types of knowledge have real value.

Seeing some impressive piece of technology, a kid may genuinely be curious about how it does what it does. "Whoa! How does it do that?" Unfortunately, they are usually surrounded by people who don't have a clue. (How many people understand what's going on in their smartphone or digital camera?)

I feel for a kid that age. He's probably being told that the world is going to end in 10 years and nobody can explain to him why subject-verb agreement is important, or how his life is going to be noticeably better if he spends a couple days figuring out how to calculate percentages instead of watching TV.

As an advisor to freshmen wanting to go into computer science, it was not unusual to hear something like "I hate math. I just want to do computer graphics for gaming and movies and stuff like that."

I had to explain that fields like graphic design might be a better match, or if they got into computer science, they might discover that they liked math better than they though. Whatever the case, graphics is probably THE most math-intensive subfield in computer science, though most of the other subfields are not far behind. Speech recognition, facial recognition, network security, digital signal processing, public key encryption etc etc all drip with serious math. Even computer scientists are are only familiar with the math needed for their particular subfields, but they should know enough to learn about a new subfield if required.

Surprisingly, most subfields don't make much use of calculus. Graphics and Digital Signal Processing use calculus, with DSP doing calculus with complex numbers. DSP walks you into a world you had no idea even existed.

But the main purpose of math courses is to hone problem solving skills, and to be able to both formulate and follow a logical argument. Five of the medieval seven liberal arts were mathematical - the entire quadrivium and logic in the trivium.

There are a lot of toxic ideas in schools today.

The trouble is that there are always doom mongers around. These days it's climate change, and back in my day it was nuclear war. Both scary with a grain of truth in both, but it creates a learned helplessness which isn't helped by adolescent hormones which are just starting at that age.

We will never stop climate change if we give into learned helplessness, or the idea that mankind must be wiped out to save the bunnies.

One or two of them are bound to work. Here's one more:

Establish what his most difficult and/or distasteful subjects are, and have them do them first, when his concentration is strongest. Then have him ease into subjects that he enjoys. Wish I had thought of that when I was in school--I always did my favorite subjects (verbal) first, and was really strung out when I got to the math.

Caffiend - your strategy of having a schoolkid do his/her least favorite homework first is exactly what my parents made me do. I hated math with a purple passion (still do) and the LAST thing I wanted to do when I got home was to tackle that horrible math homework.

Given the chance, I would have dived into the fun stuff (which was mostly everything else) and left the math until I was cross-eyed tired.

I can remember going through a kind of strike, after getting straight A grades in everything but math, when my parents badgered me every single day about math, math, math. I reasoned that those other A grades apparently didn't mean anything to them, so they weren't worth the effort. I quit participating in class, quit doing homework, didn't study for tests. My grades began to plummet and my teachers began contacting my parents.

I told my parents I didn't even want to HEAR the words "math" or "arithmetic." I promised them that the more they badgered me, the more my grades were going to plummet. We had terrible, terrible fights. I think this was in junior high school.

We fought to a truce. I wasn't really happy with the low grades. I had always been proud of being at the top of my other classes and I truly didn't are about the math. For weeks, I had to tell my mother, "Don't even start with math, or else I won't do ANY homework." She managed to refrain from pestering me about the math, and I dug back in and began acing my classes again. Math would remain a sink-or-swim challenge for me until I was done with it in my sophomore year in high school. Done FOREVER. Never had to take math in college. And graduated with honors, once I could leave math behind.

I was a bright kid and a diligent student. What I could not tolerate was parental nagging.

At least he’s questioning the wisdom of it instead of blindly following. The subject matter isn’t really the point. Brain development and personal development is the point. It’s like your brain doing bench presses or wind sprints. Math exercises a certain set of “muscles” that other subjects don’t.

Tell him being an adult sometimes sucks and you just have to push through it. So learn to do that now while learning is easier.

Nihilism is a great opening into discussions about the meaning of life. How religions hijack your identity, how you are ultimately responsible for finding your own meaning, the cycle of birth and death, etc.

He must start his homework after school as soon as he's had a snack and bathroom break. No TV, games or other diversions until he's worked for a specified time, like 45 minutes or whatever seems reasonable.

He needs to finish his work before dinner and get to bed in time for a good sleep.

Rein him in. Teach him to apply himself.

He's normal, but he won't likely improve unless to intercede and follow through every day.

Also, I'd suggest a conference with his teacher. Let her or him know what's happening. Some teachers are willing to send and receive daily notes about progress in improving work habits.

None of us would get along well if we didn't learn to apply ourselves and follow through on required tasks. Our homes would be filthy. We wouldn't have good food. We couldn't hold down jobs or pay our bills. None of this is all that fun, but we manage. Your son needs to learn this hard lessons and he will feel proud and better about himself in the long run.

The point he seems to missing is, sure we're all going to die.....what are you going to do while you wait?

If he can understand that doing nothing as an kid, youth and into adulthood doesn't equate with having your needs met, let alone your wants and comforts, he may change his tune.

Understanding the reality of it, and how choices impacts ones life helps.

Here's a thought perhaps.....suggest to him that in a month, your going to remove some privilege he now enjoys. TV, gaming, cell phone, etc. Then tell him that since its going to happen in a month anyway, he might as well do nothing and go to his room everyday after school and on weekends until it happens.

This reminds me of little Alvin in Annie Hall, who doesn’t see the point of anything because the Universe is expanding.

His mother: “And what business is that of yours!!!”


I have no words to help because I think homework should be banished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=5U1-OmAICpU

Annie Hall, 1977.

TAke him for a drive to places where homeless congregate..

let him see what happens when people stop caring and trying.

Do you give him an allowance? Stop.
Do you allow him to skip chores? Stop.
Does he even have chores? Start.
Does he watch TV? Stop.
Play games? Stop.
Internet? Stop.
Use toilet paper? Stop.
Wear clean clothes? Stop.
Do you fix his food beyond a bare minimum? Stop.
Take him out to eat? Stop.
Tell him you love him? Continue.
And finally...
Tell him that life goes back to normal once he sees daylight again.

One might conclude that the goal of your list is to make compliance more comfortable than non-compliance.

Why not just give him a good paddling? Nothing that leaves permanent damage...

There's a reason this phrase exists: "The beatings will continue until morale improves!"


I've been an advocate for 'torture' since some time in high school. Pain is a tremendous source of learning. And there is extreme motivation to avoid it. So I wondered about a pain that does no damage to the body. What if one could instruct nerve endings to transmit pain signals to the brain? What if you could start with a weak pain signal and then crank it up to a level that would cause the subject to black-out? All without causing any physical damage... what if you put numbers to it, like 1 to 100, with 100 being when you pass out... And you'd a shot that would prevent you from injuring yourself via muscle contractions/convulsions.

We wouldn't need much in the way of prisons once this was perfected. Recidivism might become an obsolete word. What if in order to get your drivers license or your first XBox, or bicycle, skateboard, baseball glove...you had to be given a taste of this physically harmless pain, say five seconds at 50 on the dial. Sure, not everyone would learn the lesson, but many would! From that point on you'd have your free agency, but you'd have the pain-machine haning over your head.

I'm a dreamer, but also a citizen!

Did you earn a waterboarding merit badge?

Your post is kind of vague, so without more details, I may be WAY off the mark here.


I developed an attitude similar to your son's when I was in 6th grade. It was the first year of middle school for me, and it was miserable. I was depressed to the point of being suicidal. I was bullied at church, I was bullied at school, and I quit caring. My depression manifested as bursts of anger between long periods of apathy, never sadness, and so my pediatrician, in his infinite wisdom, told my mom I was acting this way "for attention" instead of getting me real help (lucky for me, I had another adult woman in my life who I was able to bare my soul to, and she found me the help I needed, which is why I'm still here today). PLEASE have your son's pediatrician screen for depression. You may find nothing. You may save his life.

The other thing that may be going on is that school is BORING now. When I was in school in the 1990s, we learned about the Civil War by reenacting it. We had a mock congress for an entire semester to learn about government. We blew things up and shot potato launchers in physics class. Yes, there was a fair amount of lectures and "boring" learning, but so much more creative, active learning. Now with so much emphasis on testing, much of this is lost. Your son may be legitimately bored and needs inspiration. Is it all subjects, or just a few? Take him to see real world applications. Find things he is interested in and make them apply to school. Make history real and take trips to historical places he will learn about this year. With some inspiration, he may gain a love of learning.

Good luck!

I'm a retired teacher. A fellow teacher I know tells parents to remind their kids to be enthusiastic and interesting because it's boring to teach tiresome disinterested students.

That teacher would tell her students to work hard and appreciate her hard work. Dragging into a classroom and shrugging isn't what most students do, only those who choose to act that way and not apply themselves.

Many people live rather routine tiresome lives much of the time. They don't think it's fun or exciting to do laundry, wash dishes, or dust the furniture before driving the same old route to a grind it out job for not enough pay. But that's life and it's much better than the alternative. Those who try hard can enjoy rewards when they buy a new outfit or go out for a night on the town.

I don't take "boring" as an excuse and no parent needs to fall for that complaint because "boring" is part of living and to great extent it's a choice "boring" people choose for themselves.

I would seriously consider the possibility of depression. Your pediatrician or school counselor might be a resource.

Posssibly, and I agree with you that it should be on the table as a possibility. But I've taught 6th grade. This type of behavior for 6th graders is not at all unusual. That's why my standard response to "I don't care" on the part of 6th graders is, "I will care on your behalf." And I do. For some kids, all they need is to be told that their attitude isn't cutting it, and that an adult is watching and will be more than happy to bring the hammer down. I would bring a chair and sit beside certain kids as they were working, helping them to overcome inertia. I would assign work buddies. A lot of times, strategies like that would be enough -- at least in school.

I can tell you that when I taught 6th grade, that particular school had a wonderful team sports program. My sixth graders were required to have me sign a form every day that stated they had completed their classwork and turned in their homework. If they didn't meet expectations, they were cut from practice that day or even a game. In return, I would attend their games and cheer them on by name. (When needed, I have a very loud voice that can project across a sports field.) They LOVED that. They lived to play in front of their friends, teachers, and parents. Our school principal would attend their games as well!

You have to figure out what motivates a kid and use that as both a carrot and a stick.

I would also periodically give "the talk," in which I explained in great detail what education could do for them.

Parents need to set expectations, and enforce expectations. Yes, there may be a rough patch. But most kids will respond to high expectations along with appropriate rewards and disincentives, if needed.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 06:32PM by summer.

I never once did homework. I refused the annual dexterity test. I hated each and every class.

LATER

I am the most avid reader I've ever met, can't learn fast enough about every nook and cranny of this wonderful universe.

Freaked out my peers, as they visited my home, sat in my study and just couldn't believe a guy could be such a chameleon.

I still marvel.

Learning is the greatest power given to us.

The unlimited miracle.


https://www.google.com/search?q=Quotes+about+Learning,+Images&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo6_y9_d3kAhUDoZ4KHV0eDtUQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1229&bih=601

child is too smart. So you get a tutor or put the child into gifted classes. Mine shoved hers into the back of her cubby. She sis it. She just didn't hand it in.

He needs to understand. . . He needs to learn . . . He needs . . .

So much energy focused on compliance.

He is normal - or above normal imo. Give his thoughts room to run and join him on the adventure. The homework is the easy part. If you get hung up on that you’ll miss the person blooming before your very eyes. It can be an incredibly rewarding & exciting time where the bonds of an incredible relationship grow strong. He’s thinking about his life. Listen.

That "day" will be ~80 years away for him so....school will help him makes ends meet until then

Some good advice is in this thread, and some bad advice.

Some of these posters still think like Mormons, who follow the reality that punishment (fear, pain, threats, electric shock, beatings, withdrawal of love) is a stronger motivator than reward. This is true, but IMO this is playing dirty. These methods harm the individual! Look at what Mormonism did to us!
No, no, no, no, no!

All the advice that is positive and loving is good:

Do get your son checked for possible depression.

Talk to him, rather, LISTEN to him. Get him to talk to you, even though what he is saying is disturbing. Listen with understanding. Understanding his angst is not the same as agreeing with him. There are some good suggestions on things you could say to him in response.

Love your child! You want him to be happy and well-adjusted. Sometimes, too many rules get in the way. For example, my grandchildren seem to need to unwind after school. They are hungry, and we feed them a meal, if necessary, and we are not concerned that it is extra trouble and it is not mealtime. They pile onto the couch in the family room, and play video games, and when they get a little restless, we have them gather around the big table in a brightly-lit kitchen. We sit with them, while they do their homework. They don't like to be isolated in their rooms. We read or work on the laptop, or fold laundry, or cook. We're there to help them, if necessary. When they say, "I hate this," we say, "Let's see...oh, this is a challenge...."

The youngest child would rather join us, than watch TV, and she draws pictures, and has taught herself the letters, and even some math, because she thinks this is family fun. The cat jumps onto the table, sometimes we have snacks. We don't "dis-allow" phonecalls, or distractions, but the oldest kids want to concentrate, and get it over with. They know they can talk to or and play with their friends later.

Maybe we are just lucky. None of us are scholars or geniuses, but the whole family loves learning and reading--it's a positive, not a negative. There's a laid back feeling of acceptance, of "going with the flow", and LOVE. All of my grandchildren get straight A's, with an occasional B. They feel good about their school and their life. My granddaughter was surprised when her school awarded her the math achievement award, for the entire school! What? She was interested in other subjects, not particularly math. Her parents didn't give her an expensive gift, or anything, to make a really big deal about it. My granddaughter didn't think it was that big a deal. She just enjoyed math, and liked doing problems with her mother (who never gave her the answers). She didn't work at it because she was threatened with having privileges taken away, or because she could have an ice cream sundae.

"Just do it", and let it flow, as a part of school life. Make it positive. It does no good to complain about it in front of your child, or to complain about having to do it with your child.

You are partly right, but if someone only experiences love and positivity, they risk growing up into a self-obsessed weakling. The real adult world will be a shock to them and they will be eaten alive. I see this already happening to some people raised that way.

So there are two sides to everything.

Fortunately there are plenty of videos featuring R. Lee Ermey.

Talk with him.
Listen to him.
Accept what he says as valid points (don't dismiss his opinions/views).
Don't try to convince/force him to accept your views.
Allow him to arrive at his own conclusions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2019 07:18AM by ragnar.

I had 7. Some were very motivated and even loved school. My oldest daughter was a brainiac. Just brilliant. IQ off the charts. Full ride. Taught chem and cal as a tutor. Then there was my only son, 2nd oldest. It was a struggle the entire time in school. He thought it was boring. He hated it, and certainly was not movivated toward academia like my daughter. However, for some unknown reason in his senior year of high school - it's like a light bulb went on, and perhaps he started seeing things clearer. He went to college, then med school, and now a successful doctor. The other girls, it was hit and miss in terms of motivation. I remember one daughter hated school, like yours, and I handled her like Ragnar. However, she had to do her work to earn priviledges and allowance (sort of a microcosm of what it's like to be in an employee/employer relationship).

Bottom line: It's very normal. However, just make sure that the underlying issue isn't due to bullying, depression, etc. Rule those things out. Probably just a phase.

Who could blame anyone for not wanting to do homework or schoolwork? I stopped wanting to when I was pressured to perform well. It was too much and there’s more to life.

If I’d understood the lifelong implications to doing well in school, then my motivation would have been there. Unfortunately, no one teaches you anything useful when you’re a child, such as the value of money, the psychology of human behaviour, healthy relationships, work-life balance, what life will be like as an adult, how to cook, manage a home and balance finances.

If these things were gradually introduced into the curriculum along with pointless things like algebra, perhaps children and teenagers would understand why they need to learn and actually care more. I also think it would have helped me to have some balance, such as parents supporting the things I was actually interested in, as well as forcing me to work hard at school. If adults care, children will care.

If a kid is dealing with metastatic sarcoma or something similarly daunting, I totally get why homework isn't high on his list of priorities. Otherwise, I'm not buying it. Yes, we will all die eventually, but there will be a considerable distance between now and then for most of us. The quality of that considerable distance is determined to a large part by any given person's willingness to take care of what needs to be done. We all have responsibilities, and a large percentage of the responsibilities are not terribly exciting. We have to take care of the dull stuff to get to the more interesting and enjoyable parts of life. It's all part of being a post-toddler human.

By all means consult the child's pediatrician and have the kid screened for depression, but also draw a line. Don't let the kid have any significant privileges -- particularly those of an electronic nature -- until he has done what he needs to do. While clinical depression can neither be diagnosed nor ruled out in an online forum, the same can be said of chronic apathy and laziness. Treat for both as you're awaiting a verdict from a competent professional. Meanwhile, the kid should not be allowed to wait out "the end" by playing video games.

Whether it was "the bomb," climate change, or just the fickleness of fate, didn't most of us discover the futility of life at some point, usually earlier rather than later? Most of us, however, did not have the agency to opt out of school work, which ultimately worked in our respective favor when we realized that the likely duration of life for us was too long for us not to hedge our bets. Do the kid a favor and don't allow him to opt out, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2019 03:59PM by scmd1.

If I'm reading the good doctor correctly, he's round-about saying that a guy gets laid more the more 'successful' he is. For that reason alone a young man should be self-motivated enough to succeed to the trappings of knowledge/intelligence.

EOD, your ability to read between the lines to get to the true essence of a message slays me.

I don't know if it's normal but's it's just about the way it was for me at that age. I just wanted to learn to read and then get out of Dodge. What was all that other junk worth learning?

Then my parents sat me down with my teacher and explained that while I was waiting, it might just be worth my while to get enough knowledge to get a decent job when I left school. Otherwise, I'd have a pretty dismal life after school without any job skills. The lightbulb went off and I worked hard from then on.

Your little fatalist needs to be told that without an accurate crystal ball to tell him/her when the final hour will be arriving, he might be better off with some life skills learned until the day arrives. Eating out of dumpsters for those years of waiting might not be much fun.