Our youngest is SO all-in with Mormonism things are getting bizarre, and his wife is right there with him. It has permanently damaged our relationship. They use the church and their callings as status builders and ego strokers, so those are EVERYTHING to them. He's worse the the worst Kool-Aid drinker you've ever heard of. When conference is on he bows his head for the prayers (they all do, as the kids are being indoctrinated beyond belief), raises his arm to the square to show support for callings, and sings with the choir. I think they put on church clothes for it too. There's much, MUCH more, but one instance stands out in particular.

My husband was taking advantage of one of the rare opportunities to talk with their oldest on the phone (she's five). She said something unusual and he reacted with surprise. She promptly admonished him - absolutely chastised him because he "said a bad word - you can't say that, Papa!" His word?

Gosh.

He said, "Oh my gosh". Not acceptable. "Oh my goodness..." - that will work instead. And it's even worse than all that. My heart breaks, but I'm furious at the church too...

Cathy, I think you and I may have the same son. Is he sort of handsome? Yep! That’s him alright!

Have you heard yet that you make Jesus cry?
You will.

Yep, handsome. Gotta love him. But maybe not like him much sometimes, eh?

Our third child caused us much worry and grief, and, after seeing me cry once again, he decided he would never, ever do anything wrong, ever, and would live the most perfect life ever so I wouldn't be hurt again. He's gone way too far, though, and I don't think we'll ever get him back. I miss my son. I miss what could be.

Not that exact claim, but very close. They know where I am, more or less, but they won't hear it and won't even, for a moment, open that can of worms. So, she trashes me when she talks to her family (hours a day - who has time for that??), and they go on their high-and-mighty way feeling quite superior in all areas. Fine. Do that, but don't take the littles away. Again. They are greatly disappointed in our apostate situation and would love to be the ones to bring us back into the fold, and they're continually annoyed to see us living happily ever after.

"... don't take the littles away. Again."

Cathy, have they withheld the kids from you before?

Oh yes, in the interest of the children, you see, so they're not around disbelievers who might contaminate their thinking. I've told my son many times - "I won't help you, but I won't hurt you either", meaning that, for example, if the kids were here and Primary was going on down the street at the local ward building, I wouldn't take them, ever. But, I also won't sit the kids down and tell them how wrong their upbringing is. That's not enough for them, though - they indoctrinate the kids every minute of the day, and the most important part of the day is bedtime, where "personal prayers" are said, a "family prayer" is said, and they sing two songs, almost always "I am a child of god" and a newer Primary song I can't recall. Every night, without fail. That's how it will be, and, since we won't do that (we would sing songs like Itsy Bitsy Spider or something else silly and innocuous) we aren't to be allowed to keep them overnight. His wife has family somewhat near us and she routinely flies out to stay with them for 2, 3, even 4 weeks at a time while our son travels for work (although he ends up at home by himself sometimes because he's not always gone). Typically, during a 3-week stay there, with her TBM family, she will grudgingly bring the kids for one, occasionally two visits of a few hours each. That's all we get and that's all we'll ever get. For longer periods of time they have been withheld completely - no phone calls, visits, nothing. They smile and act innocent, as if everything is perfectly fine, but it's not. We can't talk about it, though, as it causes a huge uproar and will simply make things worse. Good times. :/

Could you try a compromise? Go along with normal Christian things like prayer and bible stories, but draw the line at the culty stuff like living prophets and unquestioning obedience.

Can't happen. It's the whole ball of wax (or crap, actually) or nothing. They won't budge one inch on anything. Ever. They totally believe in everything they've been taught and will not hear otherwise for a second. Besides, I couldn't give in on things I know are garbage, so there's that...

...and you have to figure that you and your hubby have a prominent place in their family prayers...

Oh yes. They need to help us realize the truth and all. We're not allowed to be alone with their kids almost ever, and certainly for no real length of time - they don't trust us to not tell the littles how wrong their religion is. We've assured him we won't, but it's not enough. They have nothing but disdain for us, really - we have too many pounds on us, and they value perfection in mind, body, and spirit, our house isn't as nice as theirs, because we have very different priorities and always have, and we're apostates, which is the worst, in their eyes.

First its "Oh my gosh"....then coffee.....then straight to hell!

The list of rules gets longer almost by the day. I really think their kids, especially the oldest (a girl who is highly intelligent, precocious, and headstrong) will rebel, at some point. I cannot tell you how much I hope that's the case. They're being raised in an incredibly strict household, with Jesus rules about everything. So far they're young enough that they indoctrinate easily and can't imagine bucking the status quo, but...maybe soon.

read about the Pharisees and "tsk, tsk" about the Pharisees and their obsession with so many petty, meaningless, arbitrary and pointless rules, without ever realizing that they (Mormons) have been turned into Pharisees for all practical purposes.

"Oops, the priest stammered when saying the sacrament prayer. Needs to do it over."

"Shame on you for wearing a blue shirt. Everyone knows that God expects us to wear white shirts."

"Oops, I think I saw a strand of hair that was not completely submerged. You need to do the baptism again."

"Did you say 'gosh'? That's on the list of prohibited words, you know."

"Green tea is tea. It is therefore forbidden. Root beer is not forbidden."

"Guitar playing is not allowed in the chapel! Don't ask why! It's the rules. We do rules. Rule-keeping is what gets us to heaven."

"Yes, God requires you to wear this underwear with the compass and square markings. You have covenanted to wear this underwear at all times for the rest of your life."

"God now commands that we set up the chairs in these types of meetings in a semi-circle. We will not be worthy of inspiration if we do not obey."

And on...and on...and on...the insanity goes and grows.

You know, you're right. I realized some of that, but you brought out points I hadn't considered. I really enjoy your posts and this one is no different. All the more reason I feel like my head is going to explode most of the time.

While some disagree, there are a lot of scholars that interpret the "...line upon line, precept upon precept..." as exactly the OPPOSITE of what LD Essians take it to mean: instead of carefully studying and learning concepts, mormons are following rules just for the sake of following rules.
Here's part of a Isaiah commentary that sounds like it could be talking about the typical General Conference:

"For precept must be upon precept - This is probably designed to ridicule the concise and sententious manner of the prophets, and especially the fact that they dwelt much upon the same elementary truths of religion. In teaching children we are obliged to do it by often repeating the same simple lesson. So the profane and scoffing teachers of the people said it had been with the prophets of God. It had been precept upon precept, and line upon line, in the same way as children had been instructed. The meaning is, 'there is a constant repetition of the command, without ornament, imagery, or illustration; without an appeal to our understanding, or respect for our reason; it is simply one mandate after another, just as lessons are inculcated upon children."

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "God now commands that we set up the chairs in
> these types of meetings in a semi-circle. We will
> not be worthy of inspiration if we do not obey."
>

They never said "Thank you, Good job, or Wow" whenever I and other Aaronic priesthood holders did the expected extra assignments of setting up/taking down those blasted folding metal chairs. I mean it really behooved the leaders (or any mormon adult) to express gratitude for doing the grunt work of the church. Instead, it was continual criticism.

-The chairs are facing the wrong direction (even though we set it up the same way as the previous Sunday)
-These rows are crooked (a bunch of drunken sailors could do better)
-Who told you to set up the chairs? We are not meeting here today
-What are you all standing around for? Get those chairs set up now. Pronto! (my favorite)

Wait until they start adulting. All hell will break loose.

I actually can't wait. I hope it happens before that. Their five-year-old is a incredibly intelligent, headstrong girl who knows her own mind. Once she gets a little older things could get interesting fast, although they'll simply double down on forcing her to be obedient without questioning. That will make it worse.

Your story makes me really badly want to have something to say to make it better. But I got nuthin'.

TBM Family. Can't live with 'em! Can't live without 'em!

Just hang in there. At least one of the kids has to come to their senses sooner or later or even much later.

My Mom and my siblings raise the arm to the square. When everybody had to raise their arm to the square for my brother at GC my mom immediately called everyone to confirm they had. Well she didn't call me.

I laugh at my family. But yours is your own kids and grandkids and that just isn't funny. No way. No how.

Thanks. So true, and my heart is shredded into a million pieces because of it all. One child doesn't care about the church any more (although she isn't as far down the road as I am), one went on a mission and is still true to the church (although he is happy that I'm happy and is more accepting of where we are in life), one child is exactly where I am, which is wonderful, and then...there's the youngest. He's on track to be an extremely young bishop and then stake president. He's aiming for higher than that, though, so the problems will never go away. I just want to love on my amazing grands without all this crap in the way! But, I don't see that ever occurring. I adore them, but they are withheld from us, to a degree, and it's always a balancing act, being who we are but also being a slightly less potent version of that so the kids aren't taken away from us again (it's happened repeatedly and I feel like I'm going to shrivel up and die every time).

There's a poster on here who has been on rants about how Mormons like these are NOT NICE PEOPLE, and I tend to agree!

I can't imagine a more cruel ABUSE, than to withhoud dear grandchildren from their grandparents, over minor (and ya gotta admit most of it is very petty stuff) religious differences.

Cathy, your son and wife are abusing you and your husband! You need to understand this. I have no idea how you are going to deal with this, other than to cower, and walk on egg shells; or give in, and pretend to agree with the Mormon cult.

I had to give my children an oath that I would not talk smack about their cult in front of the grandchildren, and I have kept it. Still, I refuse to support or even acknowledge any of the brainwashing activities my grandchildren have to endure. I will not support their "choice" to be baptized, or make any fuss about temple weddings, except to attend an occasional reception. (I have the wedding gifts mailed.)

Last weekend, my grandson brought home a huge bag of candy--the worst kind for your teeth, and with the most red food coloring in it--and there was a little note attached to it, which read, "Through baptism, we can become clean." I lost it, when I saw that, and made a comment to my ex-mormon sons, and my TBM daughter overheard me. I said something like, "How awful to teach sweet little children that they are "dirty."

My daughter hasn't spoken to me since--and though she's an active Mormon, she has told me that she doesn't even believe in God. That's fine for her to not believe, as long as she goes through the approved motions--but I can't say one word in defense of children, because I resigned from a religion she doesn't believe in.

And so, we continue to tip-toe around, and take orders from, a few very abusive, nasty Mormon fanatics. The nicer majority of the family, which includes the children, suffers at the hands of one or two mean ones. My sister-in-law was the family warden and whistle-blower. She wasn't a blood member of our family, but was arrogant enough to think she could dictate to us, and even to my father, who was successful and very well-respected in the business community. SIL never worked for a salary. She criticized my parents for not going to the temple often enough, and my parents were far superior to my SIL in understanding, integrity, manners, education, kindness, love and acceptance of others. My SIL used to beat her children, which made my mother cry, and beg her to stop. SIL kept dislocating her daughter's arm, until it grew permanently crooked. Her son grew up to be a sociopath, who scammed the family out of many thousands of dollars.

We need to stand up to the bullies! Stop the bullying! Kids are learning hatred and prejudice and cruelty from these Mormon bullies.

I would love to read any advice that posters have for Cathy and her grandchildren's hostage situation!

Does anyone have any ideas?

“though she's an active Mormon, she has told me that she doesn't even believe in God.”

Wow, no wonder they’re such fanatics! They’re trapped in a cult and couldn’t get out if they wanted to. I wonder how many Mormons are in the same boat. They go through the motions because “that’s what we do” but don’t believe any of it. Must be Utah Mormons.

No seriously, I just had a Storks “mind blown” moment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2019 07:57AM by babyloncansuckit.

I hope others can figure out what to do in their situation, but there is literally nothing I can do to stop what's going on. My son is ambitious - blatantly, overtly ambitious, and he's climbing and work and Mormon hierarchy ladder as quickly as possible. He's a Type A person, to the extreme, and he knows how to handle people, money, and sensitive situations. So, he's on track to be what he needs to be very soon. That's his goal in life and he's singlemindedly pursuing it. Everything is meant to look good in front of other people - his wife is trim and fashionable (albeit vain and vapid as well), and they do whatever is necessary to show their amazing spirituality. They walk a fine line, though, because Mormons are taught to shun people like us (there's a direct quote about that on the front page of this site), and we're quite mindful about that. But...the littles. The littles have our hearts so completely. We get the leftovers, the dregs leftover, and we have to be happy with that. If we stir the pot any more things will get so much worse. My daughter did just that a couple of weeks ago and our family may never fully recover from it. I live in fear.

I think mormons can have different hang ups about different things. On the rare occasion I have used a swear word, my brother has found it amusing. I think it’s because he never hears it anywhere else. In mormon terms they’re outwardly quite tolerant. Of course, I don’t really know for sure what they really think. I bet we’d get on fine and things would be outwardly pleasant and all fine if they thought I had nothing against the church.

So if I had simply said, hey I don’t believe that anymore, but it’s fine that you do, and I’m happy to hear about it, everything would be okay.

Unfortunately, they tried to get my daughter going to church, then badmouthed me to her after I completely lost it. We fell out and now things are permanently damaged.

It’s just a thought, but if you want things to be ok with your grandchildren, draw some clear boundaries with your son about what’s ok and what’s not, and say that in return, you will do x, y and z - whatever is important to them. If you are assertive then sometimes it forces the other person to be the same, instead of weird, passive aggressive stuff. You could literally say “I’d like a good relationship with you and your children, I don’t believe the same things as you anymore, so what would you like me to do?” This forces him to come out with what they really think and if it’s negative then any breakdown in the relationship will clearly be his responsibility in his eyes, yours, and everyone else’s.

For example, you can say, I won’t speak negatively of the church, and in return it would be nice if I can be trusted to be with the grandchildren alone.
I think clarity and openness is the best option. There are certain things you don’t have to put up with.

But having read all your comments maybe it’s past this point, you’ve done that, and not possible. I think this is the only thing you can do, and if this isn’t possible or doesn’t work, then you can only state to him how you would like things to be, with love. Beyond that, it’s on them and you can hopefully let go emotionally knowing you can’t control how other people behave.

Acceptance is sometimes quite liberating, even when it breaks your heart. I’ve been going down this path for the past couple of years after realising I’m in a no win situation with my mormon relatives. I just live my truth. I thought I might lose my daughter to them at one point, but truth has prevailed. If they lived locally I could imagine having to accept not really having a relationship with my nieces and nephew. There’s only so much you can do. Just live right, and at least your conscience will be clear that it’s them and not you. Sometimes that’s all we’re left with unfortunately.
Sorry that you’re going through this.

Thank you. I feel so badly for you too. We're definitely past that point - he knows where we stand and it's unacceptable to him. Our other son is much more accepting and seems to be genuinely happy about how happy and at peace I am now, but our youngest son is not and, I don't think, ever will be. They know where we are, but they are so laser focused on being godly in every way (which includes keeping kids from their Nana and Papa??) we simply fall by the wayside. I just cannot articulate how bad things are - it would take many, many pages. Suffice it to say, we are living a situation we never dreamed would happen and we have to enjoy what tiny bits of time with the kids we are allowed to have. I don't know what else to do. The church is everything to them - EVERYTHING. We mean basically nothing to him any more - we never really did.

So, that is my reality. It is the same with so many others, and absolutely none of it should be happening. This is why I get really passionate about religion in general, but the Mormon church most of all. I have a lot to say, but I have to keep it under wraps much of the time. I pine for the littles every day of my life - once I briefly, so very briefly, considered agreeing to sort of live by church rules again in order to scrabble up a bit more time with the kids, but I have to be true to myself. I just can't do it. All I can hope is that those kids figure things out as they get older and they realize their parents handled things so inappropriately. We're losing massive amounts of time with them, but we wait and hope. So many others do too, and it just wrecks me thinking about it.

Do your non/ex mormon children know this is happening? What is their relationship like with your youngest son?
I only ask because one consolation for me is my daughter waking up to what is going on in our family. It doesn’t change anything, but it was quite validating and is a silver lining in the cloud.

There’s nothing you can do. I’ve come to the same conclusion. Except to live my life and try and be happy. Also, if they see you having good relationships with the rest of the family thats another image that may stay with them for later.

One painful thing for me was realising mormons don’t want me to be happy, they want me to be an example of what happens to people when they leave. Anything else confuses them and I hope that in the future this might fry their brains a bit and aid them in waking up. At the moment, the fact I’m training to be a nurse, have a good relationship with my daughter and anything else good or happy gets ignored; I don’t think they can comprehend it. That really struck me.

They absolutely know it's happening, although our oldest prefers not to hear bad things about people. Even she is disgusted, though. Our youngest daughter is livid. Her relationship with her brother is incredibly strained, if not permanently damaged, which is sad - they used to be very close.

You're right - we are the example of what happens when people leave the church. I know they use us in that fashion. I've put myself through a meat grinder over it, but, in the end, like you said, all we can do is be happy and live life. We do the best we can. I think you're right, too, in saying that they don't actually want us to be happy - they need us to yearn for their lifestyle so we decide we're perfectly miserable without it. I'm a very introspective, introverted person, although I can be very chatty when necessary, so they choose to see that as me being unhappy, which couldn't be farther from the truth. But, they see things are they are determined to see them and nothing I say or do will change that. So, I try to pull my other children closer and we all move on knowing that our family is deeply fractured and teetering on disaster due to the religious elephant in the room. What does one do?

I only say all this because I know there are many who silently read these posts and need to know that they are most certainly not alone. I did that and I desperately needed it for a while. I don't want to serve up an unhealthy dose of "Poor Me" - it's just a reality far too many of us deal with and I'm angry and frustrated about it. We need to be happy and we need to channel these negative emotions into something positive - I try to do that, and I succeed much of the time, but sometimes I just can't do it. Right now I'm in my other son's in-laws' house taking care of his son while the other grandparents work. They're very TBM as well, but we get along fine and everybody generally supports each other. I spent the day with an extremely cute, fun, loving little boy (one-and-a-half years old) and I reveled in it. I get more tomorrow, and I wish, so very much, I could have this with all our grands. It is one of the greatest joys of my life.

What you say about being introverted rang a bell without me. I’m the same and I can be quiet whether happy or sad. My mormon relatives picked on that, accusing me of being rude when I was going through a difficult time; and generally now I think they still take it as a sign that I’m unhappy. It’s quite disconcerting feeling my family don’t expect anything good from me. I have to use that as motivation to prove them wrong, but it would be easier if I had support.
I’m glad you have other children who you are close to. If the family suffers then it is not on you. Keep those other ties strong and your family won’t fracture. Treasure this. I’m doing the same with my daughter who at one point I was scared of losing to the mormons again.

I'm doing just that, but I miss my son - at least who he was long ago and who he could be now. I did get a few pictures of two of his three kids today - I was overjoyed (and shocked). It never lasts, but I take my tiny victories where I can get them.

I brought this same point up with Al Fox Carraway and her children. They too are being brainwashed by her, but publicly. You guys said It was no big deal. Yet when Cathy brings it up, it is a huge deal. They are the same issue and both of importance.

Maybe because Cathy is right here and we are offering her support?

Do Mormons not subscribe to the Ten Commandments as per King James Bible 'Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.'
Maybe worth reminding them.
Its a long shot.

I wish it was that easy. They don't respect us at all, as I mentioned before, and, even though the Ten Commandments says so, they're also commanded to not traffic with unbelievers. They choose to go that route.

I’ve realised a lot of the confusing behaviour I’ve experienced is due to the opposing beliefs mormons hold: Love others and bring them into the fold; avoid apostates and anything anti mormon.
The religion contradicts itself a lot. Which means mormons do as well. One minute I’m being sincerely told that I’m loved, the next I’m ignored. It’s crazy making.
Of course some mormons tend to stick with one approach or the other. You could always remind them of their own scriptures which command them to love others. If they quote something different, you can always point out how contradictory their religion is. But do it like you are confused and seeking an answer from them. It forces people to think rather than go on the defensive.

I know there isn’t really a solution. Mormons put us in a double bind and we often can’t win. I found that in the religion as well. Mormons themselves are in a double bind. Whatever they do, they can’t win.

I’m going to try something new. Being the one to reach out and talk about the things we have in common. My brother at least is open to this, and I think misses our relationship. He is in another country so it’s easier to protect myself. Other than this, I move on with my own life. The door is open on my end. It’s not my fault if other people decide to slam it shut.

As a mormon, I tried to convert my parents. It fell on deaf ears and luckily they didn’t object, so it just died a natural death. Ironically, nowadays my mother supports mormonism even though she isn’t one. When people feel forced to choose between two different things, they often will. For some reason she took my brothers side instead of mine and now mormonism is supposedly wonderful.
We all get on in person, on the surface, because no one talks about it. That’s as far is it goes though. Apparently I haven’t been forgiven for an outburst I had five years ago when they all tried to convert my daughter. How ironic, that mormons call some things “unforgivable” and also never apologise. Religion gives people license to do so many wrong, unreasonable things. They are hypocritical.

Everyone (I think) will be at our house Nov. 10 - 11. It's supposed to be a happy occasion, and I so hope it goes well, but things simmer under the surface and the slightest spark, comment, or wrong look will likely set things off. I'm excited to have all my grands together in the same place even for a short time, but...I worry. I'm really concerned about how things are going to go. My family...my intelligent, attractive, frustrating, amazing, irritating family. What we wish for and what we have so often never join forces.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. I'm afraid this will happen to me and mine.

Will do. Our other son has already let us know he won't be here. It's sad, all this.

I'm sorry for you. Sucks.

I've been trying to be a "good" Aunt.

I don't want to destroy my relationships with my nieces & nephews.

BUT I'm not Mormon anymore....I'm suspect.
In spite of having a loving family....my kids were never believers.....whew!!!!

I've had a nephew & his wife & kids visit.....stay overnight etc.
Of course, they go off to church on Sundays...

I made a big mistake....I allowed their daughter to watch TV on a Sunday....I think it was a I Love Lucy episode....

She was admonished....and whisked away to watch sometime Sunday appropriate on their Ipad….

I was to blame....not her. It made me sad.
She was maybe 5 years old.....

I see she's a true believer at 12....going to the temple etc.
The perfect child.

So sad....

I wonder if she'll ever have "doubts".

Damn religion is mind sucking/brain washing.

Auntie K

It is. I'm so sorry you deal with such things. It's profoundly depressing.

Tide Pods for the mind. Now they treat you like the crazy aunt who lives in the attic.

Cathy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our youngest is SO all-in with Mormonism things
> are getting bizarre, and his wife is right there
> with him. It has permanently damaged our
> relationship.


BUT BUT BUT THE church only brings families closer together !!!!! that's what they say !!!!!!


> They use the church and their
> callings as status builders and ego strokers, so
> those are EVERYTHING to them.

the status of their peon level leadership positions is nothing but a joke to those who have real leadership positions with in the church / LDS Inc, AKA those who get paid for their churchin work!

Your story breaks my heart. I had a similar but reverse situation- years ago when I left the church. I am the oldest of 6 children. I left the church 25 years ago at the age of 18. At the time, my siblings were all quite young. My mother had a very tough time with my decision and she explicitly told me her biggest concern was that I would lead the other kids away from the church. That was her biggest fear- not if I was happy or if I was successful with my life, not if I was emotionally, physically or mentally OK- basically that I was a lost cause, so don't take any of my other children.

I promised her that I would not. I told her I would not lie about my beliefs and I would not pretend to be someone I was not, but I would not (until my siblings were adults) talk to them about why I left the church or what my opinions on the church were.

I didn't talk to my family for 2 years. My mother made it too difficult. Even after the 2 years of silence, I remained quite distant. Funny thing is, 25 years later, now all my siblings are adults. Out of 6 of us kids- there are only 2 that are still Mormon. It had nothing to do with me. Many of them, as adults, when they were questioning themselves, did come to me and ask what happened and why I left.

So my mom lost that battle, even though I had nothing to do with it. The church does a really good job of making people not want to be a part of it all on their own. I didn't even have to do anything.

I'll bet, once your grandkids are older, things will look very different. But for now, I know how painful it is. It's nothing short of cruel what your son and daughter in law are doing.