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Posted by: anonymous baby ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 02:44PM

this was one of my tbm facebook friends post.

Cast your opinion this one:
There are certain words that we don’t say at our house. Swear words, stupid, shut up, excessive potty humor etc.. when my kids’ friends come to our house and start using those words I let them know in a nice way that we don’t say those words at our house. Sometimes it takes reminding them 2-3 times, but then they get it and they don’t say them (not that I condemn any one who lets their children say “stupid” or anything— it is just a word that ***** and I decided we don’t like).
I don’t think kids feel like it is a big issue to change their language a little. They like to come play at our house so they accept the new expectation.
So here is my question- Theoretically, can I also have modesty expectations for my kids’ friends while at my house to play? If I had a swimming pool (Which I don’t) I feel like it would be perfectly reasonable to say that only kids wearing modest/appropriate swimwear can swim (no bikinis). So can I let my kids’ friend know that if they come to my house that we have clothing standards at our house? Basically the same standards for BYU, EFY.
If someone shows up wearing something I don’t feel is appropriate I would just tell them the household standards and ask them to wear something different next time. Then, next time they are coming over I nicely remind them of our standards.
Why does this feel like this would offend people? What is the difference between that and language standards?
Thoughts?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 03:15PM

anonymous baby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the difference between that and language
> standards?
> Thoughts?

The difference between a control freak and just a prude. This is like a Pentecostal requiring the kids that play with their kids not wearing short sleeves. They don't do that.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 01:14PM

Good summation, Elder Berry.


Parents CAN mandate just about anything in their own homes, but unless this woman took a fairly moderate approach in enforcing he standards of dress on visitors, she likely wouldn't accomplish anything she was trying to achieve unless her objective was to appear freakish. She sounds like the type of mother who would force her children to wear "training garments."

If one of her children's guests wore something legitimately offensive (and offense is largely in the eye of the beholder), whether the offensive nature was due to lack of coverage or to offensive words or graphic images featured on a garment, it would be somewhat understandable. To make an issue of anyone's clothing because it wasn't in compliance with BYU or EFY, on the other hand, would accomplish nothing much other than to cause the woman to appear as a total wack job. She sounds to me like someone who is trying to out-Molly-Mormon all the other Molly Mormons in her locality. Maybe she's even actively seeking a spot on a General Relief Society or Young women's board.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 03:41PM

I grew up in a mormon home with pretty much the same rules regarding words and expressions. Same with snuggling up with my girlfriend under blankets in high school. I was embarrassed as a kid, but it was my parents home, so their rules.

I don't see any issue with it. If the friends and/ or parents don't like it, too bad.

It also teaches a lesson about sometimes having to follow the rules in life as opposed breaking them or saying they don't apply. Either choice has an outcome and either out come can be learned from.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 04:14PM

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It also teaches a lesson about sometimes having to
> follow the rules in life as opposed breaking them
> or saying they don't apply. Either choice has an
> outcome and either out come can be learned from.

About their clothing? Sheesh. If I found out my daughter was shamed for her swimsuit I would be not so happy about the lesson she was "learning."

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:17PM

For me it would depend on the swim suit, and I'm a loose livin' party animal ex-mo! But yes, for a swim suit. I'm not saying imposing your household standards on everyone that enters your house is great way to win friends and influence people, but the parent and head of the house can choose to do so if they want. I guess I support the right to make the decision, more than the decision itself.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:51PM

For gods sake let the friend/parent know the rules before the invite. Her FB post is totally passive aggressive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2019 05:51PM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:18PM

The lesson would be...some people are just too uptight about swimwear.....maybe avoid those types in the future.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 04:30PM

I think there's a huge difference in policing what is said in your home and policing your neighbor's children's wardrobe choices. That isn't your prerogative. It's the other children's parents prerogative.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 04:49PM

This is a really interesting question, because I realize that (in the situation cited above) I have one, very deep, opinion--but in an analogous situation re: ultra-Orthodox Jews, I would feel the opposite.

So far as language goes: Put-down language, name calling, anything that would be felt demeaning to (especially) a child or an adolescent, hate speech (racial, sexual orientation, ethnic, religious, etc.) I think are fair game for correction, especially if a short explanation would cause the "offending" child to think.

When it comes to what a person wears, I am of two different minds and I don't have a rational reason for distinguishing between the two.

When I was preparing to go to Israel, I went shopping for a specifically "frum" [means: would pass an informal ultra-Orthodox sight test] outfit I could wear to [Orthodox] religious services, and which I could wear in situations like walking through Mea Shearim (an ultra-Orthodox area of Jerusalem). Skirt well below the knees, opaque top which covered all of my shoulders and arms and wrists, and didn't show any of my chest. (I didn't worry about a head covering; anyone viewing me would have no idea whether I was married or not.) To me, this was just practical: no reason to offend those who would be offended if I did NOT do this, and on a self-protection level, I certainly didn't want to become the center of a angry flash mob of strange-to-me men who were outraged by my desecration of "their" part of Israel.

But somehow, my preparations for going to Israel seem fundamentally different than telling an unrelated-to-you child/adolescent that their normal wear is unacceptable, and that wearing it makes certain adult authority figures uncomfortable at the very least. Whether it is a child who is involved, or an adolescent, I think the entire idea of saying that their normal (acceptable to society at large standards) attire is disturbing to an adult is dangerous: It sends the message: YOU are not okay by me....and this is a terrible thing to do to a child growing up, and can result in lifelong problems for that child.

[There is an exception here: If there is some real danger to the child, such as a male who is known to have boundary problems or pedophilia problems, then forget what I am saying on this issue: The task, instead, would be to keep that child safe, regardless of any other consideration. My step-grandfather had child molestation problems (it was actually more serious that "just" this), and throughout my growing up, I was NEVER allowed to be alone with him. This was an iron-clad rule, no exceptions allowed, from my Mom, bolstered by her experiences and by her step-sister's experiences, as they grew up.]

Back to your question about your friend: I know that hurting the child/adolescent emotionally is not what is intended by the adult, but this IS, almost certainly, the message the child/adolescent will receive: that their body, whether it is a child's body or an adolescent's changing body, is somehow deeply unacceptable as it is, which makes them (in their own mind) feel [fundamentally] "wrong," repulsive, scary, or unacceptable as a human being.

For your friend, I would say:

Remember back to that developmental time in your own personal history, and bring back the memories of how uncertain you felt, and how MUCH you wanted to be accepted for "who" you are (even if you didn't have much of a clue as to what this meant), and how IMPORTANT it was to you to be understood and accepted as the person (and the body that that person inhabits) who, having no control over what was physically happening (or would soon BE happening) to them physically, just wanted to be loved and accepted "as is."

If the practical problem is that YOUR child is being raised with certain rules, and THAT child is not, then you explain to your child that people come in all different varieties and "flavors," and what is acceptable for THAT child by THEIR parents (etc.) is okay for them, but that your family has different standards, which your child is expected to conform to until they reach the point in physical and mental maturity where they are generally accepted as co-adults.

When I was in seventh grade, a teacher who should have known better (she was in my life because she had been awarded a prestigious special role as a teacher, which was of very great value to her professionally) purposely and actively did something to me which I definitely did not deserve, and which took me more than a year of active effort to finally "reverse" (to the extent that this was possible at that time). The whole thing was stupid, and I knew it as it happened--what she was asserting would have been instantly shown as false by checking my cumulative record, to which she had access at any time the counselor's office was open.

She did this to me at a time when I was trying to survive through what was extreme turmoil for me at home, for reasons I did not understand at that time, and would not understand until many decades into the future. The important thing is: Just about every day of my life, since she did that to me, something happens, or I read or hear something, and I instantly flash back to how much she actively tried to ruin my life (and this is what she really WAS trying to do), and I wonder where she is now (I do understand that she is, almost certainly, deceased), and if she has any idea that she did not, in the end, "win."

The wounds of childhood (my Mom and her step-sister growing up), and any stage of adolescence (Me), can cut so deeply, and SO "permanently," that they can still actively affect someone's life not only through future decades, but for all of the rest of that person's life.

Again, for your friend, I would say:

You have every right to have your own life and home standards, but the swimwear situation is a time when boundaries should be subject to common sense modification, in respectful consideration for that child's not only current, but also future, self.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:00PM

If my friends wanted to have a Summer-time sleep over (camp outside in a tent or sleep under the stars in sleeping bags) they were obligated to bring church clothes (slacks, dress shirt/shoes). Yes, they had to go to church with my family. Saturday nite -Sunday morning. A lot of my primary aged friends had Saturday chores to do so their parents wouldn't budge on sleeping over on Friday nights. School nights were a big "No-no".

Now, I could not reciprocate the favor. I could never spend Saturday night at a friend's house. We all know why- I might miss church. That was unacceptable to my TBM Mom.

Eventually, my non-member friends found cooler people to hang with. They didn't dig going to church.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:01PM

That's a lousy friend.

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Posted by: tig ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:05PM

I bet the same person who posted that on their Facebook page is appalled by political correctness or sharia law. Yet, it is perfectly reasonable when it is their standards or their religion...smdh.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:09PM

Yes. Well observed.

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Posted by: Writer of this post ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 09:59PM

She campaigned for section 8 in California.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 01:41PM

I'm curious. Is/was she a California resident when she campaigned for Prop 8, or was she one of those wack jobs from Utah, Idaho, Arizona, or Nevada who joined the fray even though, as non-California residents, they didn't technically have a dog in that particular fight?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 05:15PM

Policing language in your home is one thing, but policing clothing that has wide social acceptance is quite another. This would be a good lesson for children, "Various cultures dress differently from one another."

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Posted by: westernwillows ( )
Date: October 22, 2019 11:43PM

I'm guessing this woman is the mother of a boy, concerned about how his female friends dress at her house (boys are rarely told to dress "modestly.") Heaven forbid that the boys have sexual thoughts about the girls! News flash: It's NORMAL and it's HEALTHY to have those thoughts, and switching from a bikini to a one piece bathing suit won't change anything.

As for setting standards at her house: While I don't agree with her standards, as long as she gave me (the parent) notice of what the standards are so I can inform my daughter, I can live with it. I would have a HUGE problem with it if she approached my daughter and slut shamed her for wearing something normal like a tank top or shorts above the knee.

That being said, I have a dress code at my house too. I have horses, and if the kids are going to be around them, they MUST wear long pants and proper boots. No exceptions. It has nothing to do with my "standards" but safety. Kids know this and they dress appropriately.

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Posted by: Honest TB[long] ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 05:17AM

BTW I don't refer to myself as TBM but as "TB[long]" because I don't use that "M" word anymore as its a HUUUUGE VICTORY for Satan. I also don't spell out that long phrase either because I'd get carpal tunnel trying to write it all the time so I write "[long]" instead to help all marvel at how wondrously normal our beloved religion is.

I'm doing my best to honestly show how "normal" this wondrous religion is. I suppose I could try to sugar coat everything and paint some slanted picture. But then I would be a "Dishonest TB[long]" instead and thus all those glorious chapel cleaning assignments and numerous guilt trips would be for naught as I'd be thrust to hell at the end of this life by our loving Big Brother Jesus instead of getting exaltation. One of these times I'm going to start a thread to explain what exaltation is all about so all of you can better understand how appealing it may be.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 11:08AM

Honest TB[long] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of these
> times I'm going to start a thread to explain what
> exaltation is all about so all of you can better
> understand how appealing it may be.

You must. I'm a quiver with anticipation.

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 08:44AM

FWIW...I'm not mormon nor are my kids. My kids couldn't say "shut up" or "hate".

If they dropped accidental traditional cuss words, I wasn't too hard on them, but those 2 words, no one in the house could say, including us parents

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 01:56PM

When I was a kid, my parents didn't allow us to use the word "hate" in reference to a person or to anything my parents might have considered sacred, but we were allowed to express hatred of things or ideas.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 08:54AM

If kids are coming over as friends I don't think it's a problem. They aren't wanting to show off their sensuality, exactly. But more just want to have fun for a couple of hours.

Are they worried teenage boys would wear a thong? because they don't it's old men in their 60s who parade around oddly. I see this at the gym all the time! As for the girls they would be embarrassed too.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 10:13AM

We always said shut up at our house. Most times it had nothing to do with SHUT UP! My dad cussed all the time. All the kids took a turn at cussing as little children.

I cussed while hoeing beets and then stopped, but then I had twins and the cussing started up again. I had my few choice cuss words, one of which was NOT bastard.

One day my son was playing with his toys and they were some characters from some movie--and he yelled out, "You bastard." I about died laughing. He didn't know it was a cuss word.

My very TBM daughter now is the one who brought the F word into the household. She used it a lot. Now she uses words like "son of a bisquit."

And I don't give a damn what others think.

The clothing. Glad I never lived by someone like this mother. We had a neighbor lady who always tried to get everyone to play "know your gospel" instead of kick the can on Sunday nights. It never worked. Even with her kids.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2019 10:14AM by cl2.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 12:09PM

SWEAR

At some mormon houses, you could be yourself (only a few and rare). A lot of them had different rules and I couldn't remember them all. One kid had rules about watching TV- He couldn't watch until 7pm (only 1 hour). We had to play outside and then gosh was a bad word and so was crap. Crud was bad and so was darn and stupid. And if we acted like 9 year olds playing cars (making car noises, horns/sirens) his grandmother would poke her head out the window and tell us to hush up.

So could we ride bicycles in the his long gravel driveway?

No! His mom said that we left too many skid marks.

There was a cool treehouse, but that was off-limits. It belonged to his younger sister for her exclusive tea parties.

We could toss a frisbee around or a football. His mom didn't like that either. It wrecked the lawn.

Do you know what was okay though?

Sending two cub scouts walking alone to go knock on stranger's doors in order to sell boxes of lightbulbs. I think that I've shared here about meeting a pervert in his briefs when knocking on doors.

As to my house, everything that good mormons shouldn't do, we did. My Dad owned the tv set and football was on Sunday afternoons/evenings. After the game we went hometeaching in jeans and t-shirts, very casual. Swimming in the pool was okay so long as you didn't jump or dive in. I could do homework on Sunday nights and my Mom was pretty good about not forcing me to attend Sunday night devotional/firesides (as long as I attended church). I think she wanted to rest and not drive around at night. My Mom had no qualms about grocery shopping after church to pick up a few items. I would tell her that we shouldn't go shopping and she would tell me to shut up.

My Dad was very sensitive about cussing. He heard it all day at his job (mechanic) so he didn't want to hear casual cussing (it was different if you got hurt and dropped a damn- He cussed when he got hurt while doing home repairs. Every tool got cussed out. lol). I tried not to curse, but I started cussing in the sixth grade. The son of the bishop went with me on a week long nature study-camp. It was a school-wide event. I tried snuff and a puff. Tobacco and cigarettes were awful. Someone brought a Hustler and everybody took a peak. I started saying bitchin and shit. Probably my new favorite adjectives.

So I didn't watch myself after my Dad hugged me after stepping off the bus. He missed me a lot. And without thinking I looked up and saw our luggage coming on a beat up Chevy Tahoe and trailer. "Just look at our shit. It's falling off the trailer." Dad's eyes got really big. I think that I covered my mouth. He said with a smile "Looks like we learned some new words. We'll talk later." I just watched it around him and never cursed in front of him again. I later got in trouble at church. We were planning an overnight camping trip at a new location and I was excited. I think I said "That's going to be bitchin' awesome" in front of ph leaders. I found myself in the bishop's office the following Sunday to discuss why swearing is so hurtful to god and his leaders.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 01:20PM

Why was it OK to swim on sundays but not to jump or dive into the pool?

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 01:28PM

scmd1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why was it OK to swim on sundays but not to jump
> or dive into the pool?

Less likely to have an accident or get hurt. My convert parents never believed much in JS tales about Stan travelling on the water, however they believed in acting safely while swimming. We swam every Sunday (during Summer) after church and never had an incident. I got hurt a few times from diving and jumping in, but those occurred during swim parties.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 04:15PM

So was the "no jumping in or diving" rule for every day and not just on Sundays? If so, I get it.

We don't let people dive into our pool, either, for liability reasons and because we really don't want anyone suffering head or spinal cord injuries in our pool, though we've never banned jumping.

My wife and I occasionally dive into the pool when it's only our immediate family present, as we know how deep it is and can dive safely, but we don't want to be responsible for others misjudging the depth.

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Posted by: nolongerangry ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 12:12PM

I said god damn in front of my TBM mom and sister once. They acted like I had just killed their dog and ate it, it was so horrible to them. I kind of laughed at how serious they were acting about it, like it is a capital crime.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 01:30PM

The Utah Daughter's of the Pioneer Museum up on capitol hill in SLC, has a portrait of the 1947 Days of 47 Parade Royalty. Some nice pretty wholesome utah girls, wearing tank tops and tied midriff blouses and waving and smiling on the floats and at the ceremonies. (I think these huge photos are in one of the stair wells of the museum, ask at the desk.) These ladies were chosen to represent the 100 year celebration of the pioneers arriving for Pie and Beer Day. Nowdays they would be shunned and shamed by the ultra righteous modesty police. I make several trips to Utah a year and in the last two years I have noticed that outside of Utah Valley, the modesty police are fighting a losing battle.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 04:06PM

People have an right to make rules for their homes, but that doesnt make it the right or smart thing to do. Like others, I think banning vulgar or racist language, as well as putdowns and name calling is fine but clothes are a different matter. If you have skinny dippers or topless girls showing up, you have the right to tell them to cover up, but otherwise you are going to look petty, prudish and you will loose friends. Possibly a barely there string bikini might be an exception for some, but even then you need to be tactful, let people know in advance and you will likely offend anyway. I wouldn't do it because what people wear isn't really my business. If someone told me what to wear, I would swim elsewhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2019 06:46PM by bona dea.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 06:58PM

My dear dad, EQP and then High Council....used to cuss when he got pissed off or frustrated with someone or something....and I liked to sneak in the odd cuss of my own. He never called me on it.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: October 23, 2019 08:03PM

I don't mind swearing unless it is extreme or in the presence of kids. I swear myself at times. I had a a college roomie complain because I sometimes said'Oh, God'. She thought I was making God feel bad. Whatever.
I will correct my students in in school as it is against the rules but I dont make a big deal of it unless it is directed specifically at someone as an insult. If every other word is the F bomb and if it is my territory I might say something. Ditto if someone is swearing when little kids are there.Otherwise it isn't my place

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Posted by: laperla late to thread ( )
Date: October 24, 2019 09:56PM

That's what I think. You can have more influence by accepting your kids' friends as they are.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: October 26, 2019 03:16AM

I would probably write something like this.

Hey lady, the kids DON'T like playing at your house but you won't let your kids play at other people's houses. Am I right?
They might see a book or hear a word you don't approve of. You think other parents don't notice? Kids will gravitate to where they feel comfortable and wanted. Don't worry lady because pretty soon they won't want to play at your house.

Hopefully you won't be offended when one of the kids visiting your house sees garments on the bathroom floor and berates you for having such low moral standards and poor housekeeping skills. Maybe her mom won't let her play at YOUR house anymore.

Just a note:
While helping out in my daughter's classroom I observed a 3rd grade boy belittle a mom volunteer (she was helping him read) for wearing a sleeveless blouse. He told her it was immodest! I was speechless. It was a trailer classroom and hotter than hell.(We have a lot of these in Utah).

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