As all of the Saints who sustain Russell M. Nelson as a prophet "know" the full priesthood authority and perfect organization of the restored Gospel was not destroyed when Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage, but rather continued in all its glory under the leadership of Brigham Young and his successors, pursuant to the mantle being passed from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young.

Strangely, however, none of Joseph Smith's surviving family members, including his mother (Lucy), his older sister (Sophronia), his younger brother (William), his younger sister (Katharine) and his youngest sister (Lucy) believed that the prophetic and priesthood mantle of Joseph Smith had passed to Brigham Young. Joseph Smith's wife (Emma) also didn't think so. None of them went to live in Utah. None of them had any desire to be close to the "Prophet" Brigham Young. None of them seemed to be inclined to regard the sermons and preachings of Brigham Young as having any more value than the midnight barkings of a rabid dog.

These were among the people most closely connected to and intimate with the Prophet Joseph Smith, the great restorer of all that was pure, holy and good and true. You'd think that at least one or two of them would have recognized Joe's true successor when he came along.

It would be like Jesus's entire family all rejecting Peter. "Oh...that guy. Yeah, he's a fraud. J.C. never intended for Pete to be in charge of the church. We don't want to have anything to do with that phony."

Is it just me or.....is something not adding up here? Why do Utah Mormons really think that Brigham Young was Joe's legitimate successor? Because Briggy said so? Because that which had been secret (polygamy) was brought out into the open? Because somebody claimed that Brigham Young looked like Joseph Smith when he was talking once?

"Is it just me or.....is something not adding up here? Why do Utah Mormons really think that Brigham Young was Joe's legitimate successor? " This idea wasn't the accepted doctrine until recently.

What is important to remember is that up until the mid 20th century Mormons considered Joseph Smith as the Prophet. What came after were considered Presidents. Brigham Young didn't call himself "the Prophet." And didn't write any revelations down or use the peep stones, He wasn't regarded as greatly spiritual or possessing some deep relation with the big JC. (There is Section 130 something that describes creating the camp of Israel to migrate to the western wilderness, but that's it). Mormon's continued to morn the death of Joe for generations, as sort of a chip on the shoulder, and smugness that the protestant East was degenerated and ripe for Gods wrath because Joe died in that shoot out at Carthage. And the big bad world east of the Mississippi was full of Satan or whatever.

It wasn't until after George Albert Smith bit the dust that the brethren really sought to consolidate power, hoard the money, and reinforce in the minds of the members that they really were the successors of Big Joe. They began to sustain themselves as prophets seers and revelators.

By the about 1980 (the time of the power of Benson and McKonkie) it was pretty much established. That's when McKonkie gave the seven deadly heresies of the church doctrine speech. Benson gave the 14 fundamental of following the prophet, which includes that the "living prophet is more important than the scriptures." And the prophet is qualified to speak in behalf of science and medicine. Dog whistle that Evolution is bunk.

Hyrum's family sided with Brigham. As did Joseph's uncle John Smith who became Patriarch to the church.

Several other members of the Smith family also sided with Brigham.

Joseph F Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith were of course Hyrum's son and grandson. Several current and recent apostles and seventy are related to them.

I look at it as a Joseph/Hyrum split. Polygamy played a strong role too. Emma wanted nothing to do with it.

family members, mainly the siblings I named, Joe's own mom, plus Joe's real wife (Emma) and their children. Not much of a "forever family" according to the Brighamite faction's current standards.

It does also make me wonder whether Briggy had to make quite a sales pitch to Hyrum's widow and Joe's uncle to get them to follow him. If Briggy had failed to get any of the Smiths, it could have been a disaster for his self-proclaimed right of succession. (It was also quite convenient for Briggy that both Hyrum and Sam were dead. If either of them had survived Joe, they probably would have taken the throne.)

Things don't add up?

Perhaps I can help. I have Mathematics Minor and a calculator with a lot of buttons with funny symbols on them. Oh, they're numbers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2019 09:06AM by GregS.

Very little of the Smith clan went west...Mary Fielding Smith, which was dictated by her financial condition. (Of course, her little children and the 12 year old mule driver of Prophet lore), Uncle John was also a financial decision.

As for Emma, it was also a financial decision and an on going fight over land, property, and what was hers or what was church...she was land rich at rapidly depreciating values and cash poor. And, or course, she had the polygamy hang up and Marks was chosen replacement.

Took some years to filter out, with those chasing Strang, etc. RLDS formed 15 plus years later, J-III letter not-withstanding and reluctance with testimony for him.

Like much in life, follow the money.

Brigham Young was a usurper par excellence. Usurper in Chief, even.

"A usurper is an illegitimate or controversial claimant to power, often but not always in a monarchy. In other words, a person who takes the power of a country, city, or established region for himself, without any formal or legal right to claim it as his own."

Usurpers, Joseph's kind were not.


Usurpers have a gift. They know that they can just reach out and grab "things" and that people will let them!

Cuz most people are in awe of people with audacity. Most people are looking for a champion who will make their lives better, take their side. A few wild promises takes care of that. Cuz, just like the missionary in "The Book of Mormon", people love to believe, just believe.

It was a lost art what ole Briggy had. Although it seems to have recently been revived . . .

Yeah, verily, even the very elect can be led astray and not led away to the West Deseret.

Sanford and Thomas Bingham reported to old Brigham about discovering ore and he advised them not to pursue mining. I bet church leaders purposely blocked the views of the Oquirrh Mountains; still stewing that they let the copper pit get away from church control.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2019 04:15PM by messygoop.

Emma supported Sidney Rigdon as prophet. Sidney was against polygamy and was the last remaining member of the First Presidency.

Brigham Young was president of the Quorum of Twelve which in the day were special witnesses of Christ and were traveling missionaries. Apostles did not have any administrative authority in the church.

It would make sense to make a member of the a First Presidency prophet and not an apostle.

Sorry about the TJ.

Carry on my wayward sons.

"Send in the Clowns...and Call Them General Authorities!"?

It's a story about a group of Gypsy families in the new world who were descended from the greatest, most talented thespians in all Gypsydom.

Upon arriving in the New World, they got bored and, taking inspiration from Shakespeare's "all the world's a stage" line, they decided to embark upon one of the most ambitious theatrical projects ever conceived--a religious-themed, multi-generational stage play, using locations all across America and the world as their stage.

It was intended to be a farce and comedy. Extras were to be recruited by the thousands and, eventually, the millions. But to make it more interesting, the extras were never to be clued in to the fact that it was all a hilarious multi-generational theater production.

But they would drop clues all over the place to see if any would pick up on the true nature of the theater production that they had unknowingly become a part of.

The producers even came up with a phony book of scripture that referred to a place called "the Land of Moron". They were also going to insert into that book of scripture a character named "Stupid I", but one of the script-writing committee members, a guy going under the alias "Smith" (as was his family's custom) said that was too obvious. He suggested "Stupidi" instead. But his cousin (also on the script-writing committee) said that it was still too obvious. "How about Moroni?" he asked. And everyone like that because it sounded vaguely Italian.

The working title of their production has always been "Send in the Clowns and Call Them General Authorities!"

It may be hard to believe, but this multi-generational theater production is still going strong (or at least strong-ish).

If you want, I can fill you in on some of the more entertaining Acts and Scenes that have been performed in this long-running drama.

is a recent favorite. Very funny. It's got slippers and beanies, as would be expected. There's also a hilarious bit about Pope-mobile envy that's great. But the "genuflectus interruptus" scene is the highlight. It's a classic.

spending day after day daydreaming instead of listening to Ms. Hodfogg's (or the teacher du jour's) lectures on gases and kinetic molecular theory, or whatever...not that gases and kinetic molecular theory weren't good catalysts and fuel for more daydreaming......



"One day, not long after enjoying his favorite 'Friday Burrito Festival' lunch in the school cafeteria, Norbert found himself mixing chemicals in the high-school chemistry lab. The lesson was on gases and kinetic molecular theory. Each student was given two flasks of material for use in conducting the educational experiment. Oddly, there were three flasks at Norbert's lab station, but Norbert had not noticed that all the other students had only two....

Then something about Norbert mixing all three flasks together and then absentmindedly drinking the mixture by mistake instead of the diet coke that he habitually carried around in another identical mixing flask as a joke...

Then something about intense percolation activity in his stomach, followed by purple gas coming out of his mouth and nostrils and, long story short, Norbert ultimately discovering that the mixture had reconstituted his physiology such that whenever he ate a burrito his body would no longer be subject to gravitational forces for anywhere from 8 to 10 hours at a time....

Well, it's a long story, but suffice it to say that Norbert became Flatula Man! Rescued many kittens from trees and telephone poles. Even rescued stranded climbers on Mt. Everest.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because Briggy said so? Because that which had
> been secret (polygamy) was brought out into the
> open? Because somebody claimed that Brigham Young
> looked like Joseph Smith when he was talking once?

In a nutshell...yes.

A sudden vacuum of power appeared, and BY jumped to fill it. The sheep were looking for someone to follow, so they followed him. No one seemed to care much what Emma and her children thought; all of the Mormons in Nauvoo had followed JS there, not her.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...continued in all its glory
> under the leadership of Brigham Young and his
> successors, pursuant to the mantle being passed
> from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young.

The why of this continuance is clearly explained by the fact that Brigham Young was a long-time, influential Freemason.

He was a man chosen by poohbahs of the club which organized the Church-front called Mormonism.

They choose whom they wish and a murderer called Brigham was on deck.

Behold his smirking photo with Compass and Square on his bloody tie.

He likely had it round his neck the day the Fancher Party died.

aka, the "Mountain Meadows Massacre"...aka the Mormon 9/11:

"The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks began on September 7 and CULMINATED ON SEPTEMBER 11, 1857."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

It was them Paiute Injuns what done it....(wink, wink)