Will you give it to me? The Church of not Mormons but Jesus Christ. Regardless of Rusty rebranding Mormonism is not watered down in my opinion.

There are to me repeating themes here at RfM about the progression of Mormonism into some unrecognizable religion. The problem is I'm married to a Mormon and father of 3 Mormons. My parents are still alive and very Mormon.

In fact, I read an email today about my dementia dad. Actually, I thought what my brother wrote was funny. Here are the highlights.

My father calls Fast Sunday Slow Sunday now. He would have never uttered such sacrilege before his dementia.

He is happy about not going to Sunday School some Sundays so he can be taught by a "Someone" and not a "Nobody." My parents are reading teachings of his grandfather Hugh Brown for their off Sunday Schools. Apparently, he doesn't like their Sunday School teacher.

The only "watering down" I could think of are specifically two things - removal of punishment pantomimes which were before my time and naked touching.

Other than those it is the same old game but corelated to a corporate height for maximizing prophets and minimizing members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2019 01:17PM by Elder Berry.

this is a BIGGIE:

in timespast (r) the GAs used to rant against divorce; in my case (2001) while the rhetoric was still on HIGH, they excused, condoned, ratified a non-adultery, non-abuse divorce that my now former pulled out all the stops, including hate & lies & greed; ChurchCo saw it in time to intervene, but they didn't. It was all in Black & White, her financial stmnts vs. what her employer provided in her pay stubs.

ChurchCo Didn't Care, even though they saw them, acknowledged they were FALSE.

Honesty vs. Hate/Lies/Greed; guess which one won?

I've heard stories here and on the biography board that LDS Corp and divorce is like masturbation questioning. Up to the bishop's "discretion." How is this watered down?

they 'believe' in Honesty, Kindness, Caring & Compassion, etc. LESS THAN I DO, that's how.

Yeah, but they were always like that, so there was no watering down. It was watered down from the get-go.

Actually, I believe it is bait and switch. Say one thing with your lips and with your actions draw far from it.

No matter how much they water it down, you'll still die of thirst no matter how much of it you drink.

That is because you only get a tablespoon of holy water once a week and have to skip it twice annually for GC.

One time when I was a kid, I held the sacrament water in my mouth until the service was over and went out to the foyer and spit it out in the drinking fountain.

I was quite the little rebel.

EB:

All this time & effort for you to Spring (water) that one on us; SHAME on U!!

is a friend of mine on fb. I just found out today that he doesn't believe much of the doctrine anymore. He says that he doesn't agree with all the changes. He only goes now because of his grandkids, but hasn't had a temple recommend in 20 years. He refuses to pay tithing, etc. I was SHOCKED. I never would have believed he and his wife would feel this way--but his wife feels the same way.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> is a friend of mine on fb. I just found out today
> that he doesn't believe much of the doctrine
> anymore. He says that he doesn't agree with all
> the changes. He only goes now because of his
> grandkids, but hasn't had a temple recommend in 20
> years. He refuses to pay tithing, etc. I was
> SHOCKED. I never would have believed he and his
> wife would feel this way--but his wife feels the
> same way.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Glaring trade-off for ChurchCo:

who do they cater to?
I think they believe they've Banked most of the olders, so they can change things - carefully, slowly - to appeal to the youngers who might be leaving in droves as has been posted here -surmised - previously.

Watered down? It’s like a turd that won’t flush.

More water to hang their turds over.

If you could transport an active mormon adult from the 1950s in to today, they would tell us clearly and without ambiguity, how Mormonism has been watered-down. The teachings that the black race has never been cursed by God, that all gay people are not degenerates and child-molestors, that polygamy (from a yet earlier era) is not required by god to get in to the Celestial Kingdom, and take your rightful position as a literal god of "worlds without number"... These teachings of what were once supposed to be true but that are no longer true, are the teachings of today's Mormonism. A person from the 1950s would not be very receptive to these teachings of today's Mormon church. In such a person's mind, the whole church and all of its leaders of 2019 have apostacised. The church of today is even embarrassed (and rightfully so) to call themselves after the name of the book upon which they claim authority to even exist, and supposedly that gives them the power and authority to act in God's name because of it. And these church leaders are worse now than were the inferior races and the sexually degenerate people that they painted mental pictures of for us (as enemies of god), in the 1950s. Such a person out of his own time would be ashamed to belong to the Mormon church of today and most of today's church members would be ashamed of him. There is little if any good left in Mormonism except for perhaps association with the few good people who get unknowingly deceived and sucked in to it now and who don't know any better. The evil in today's Mormon church is not because they quit teaching so blatantly, such terrible things. It's because the mormon church leaders of today still believe those same terrible things now, that they hurt people through inappropriate teachings and actions, and that they make no apologies for the damage that they do to people's lives.

A 1950's Mormon living in today's society of 2019 would have a choice to make between two greatly contrasting worlds. He could go against correlation, go against a so-called living prophet, go against his stake president, and bishop. He could be ostracised by almost everyone in his ward (except for perhaps the very oldest of the senior citizens there). He could be excommunicated in the end for apostacy. Or, he could return to his own time and be well integrated socially, well liked, and where he could then support everything the church stood for in his own time (even if in secret from the rest of the world at that time). His parents would likely have sworn an "oath of vengence" against the United States government in a mormon temple and would have taught him (as they swore to do in the temple) to pray unceasingly for vengeance upon the United States government. Everything that is inconsistent with this man's life in 2019.... is the whitewash.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2019 11:31AM by azsteve.

These things could be said for most of the U.S. in the 1950s. Is Murica "watered down?"

Edit: The current leaders still hold things like sexuality as self evident truths. They are absolutist and only pruning little bits to maintain themselves as "a religion" which they still aren't really successfully at doing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2019 01:03PM by Elder Berry.

Here are some changes

https://religionnews.com/2019/06/18/20-changes-the-new-mormon-president-has-made-to-appeal-to-millennials-and-generation-z/

Tweaks. Same underlying structure. Easily could go the other way in their future. These are only "fall backs" on their line of religious offenses.

Michael Quinn got excommunicated for publishing church history. Now on lds.org are the
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng
confirming what Michael Quinn wrote. There are no more home teachers or visiting teachers. Garments have become shorter. The language has changed they now use the word "ministering". Less shunning talks during general conference.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/10/byu-says-it-will-no-longer-punish-rape-victims-for-violating-the-schools-honor-code.html
Vending machines at BYU have coke in it now. I remember my bishop being very upset at me at age 20 when he asked me if I drank coke and I said yes he almost would not sign my temple recommend slip to do baptisms for the dead. I have seen women wearing pants suits to church. Women can say a prayer during conference. No more Scouting program they used to push becoming an eagle scout. Birth control is now allowed. My grandma is in her 80 and she was a working woman with 5 children and the ward said she should quit her job and stay home with her children. The prophet said women should be at home. Last I attended church about 6 years ago many moms were working outside the home. To me it appeared the family size has gotten smaller on average (less children per family). Divorce was not so much forbidden anymore. There was a time the church pushed for unwed mothers to give their babies up for adoption, I remember it was around 2002 I was sitting in a single ward next to a single mom and the bishop read the letter how unwed mothers should give their babies up for adoption and she ran out crying. I know a single woman who has adopted 2 children and she is a daughter of a bishop. Missionaries used to were only allowed to call their parents on mothers day and Christmas. Now missionaries can call more often. I have not heard them talking about "not more than 1 ear ring per ear".
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/lds-family-services-no-longer-operating-as-adoption-agency?lang=eng
https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=57344806&itype=cmsid

WE can agree to disagree.

I think watering down would be significant changes. I don't believe the core of Mormonism has changed. I actually think it has gotten stronger. The first part of the 20th Century Mormons were "guided" by their leader. Nowadays they are following their leader. With leaders granting paltry indulgences to widen their net of control.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WE can agree to disagree.
>
> I think watering down would be significant
> changes. I don't believe the core of Mormonism has
> changed. I actually think it has gotten stronger.
> The first part of the 20th Century Mormons were
> "guided" by their leader. Nowadays they are
> following their leader. With leaders granting
> paltry indulgences to widen their net of control.

"I actually think it has gotten stronger". Maybe because I have not been to church in several years this becomes more and more strange to me how I could have ever believed in all of this. Mormonism is so easy to research that it is fault and that Joseph Smith was a con man. Literally at our fingertips.Some people need the faith. Mormonism makes my cousin very happy. It did not do that to me. She does unassisted home births without any prenatal care and gets a healthy baby. She prayed about it and it worked out. All her children are not vaccinated but will get vaccinated shortly before they serve their missions. The law of consecration I feel has not been talked about as much as during Joseph Smith times.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-14-the-law-of-consecration?lang=eng

At turn of the last century, they abandoned polygamy.

In the last fifty years, they dropped the priesthood ban.

In the last thirty years, they have bowdlerized the temple ritual which is an ongoing process.

The Book of Abraham has been de-emphasized, Joseph Smith is decreasing in prominence. There is less talk about the tribe of Ephraim. Non-members are no longer Gentiles. Indians/Native Americans are no longer Lamanites. Polynesians are no longer Hagothites. The RCs are no longer the Great and Abominable Church, the Pres meets with the Pope. Church is now two hours, activities have decreased.

And now there is even talk about the tea and coffee ban.

Anon for just now Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And now there is even talk about the tea and
> coffee ban.

Big deal. Lets talk about the interrogation of adults and children ban that will never happen.

the frontline of church involvement with the rank-and-file is their Bp, & occasionally their SP, usually a SP counselor, I believe.

So, it remains largely a matter of where U live, which regime of leadership you go to for TRs & other situations. Along with their personal say-so about marginal items (WoW, cannabis <for therapeutic purposes, of course!>) and other routine issues, it's somewhat arbitrary if not capricious in on-the-ground application.

I still say that the most important parts of Christ's gospel are love God & neighbor, Kindness, Honesty, etc. BY THEIR EXCEPTIONS (my personal example, others) there can't be any credible denial that they've watered things down / knowingly - purposely diluted Christianity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2019 04:23PM by GNPE.

How can they water down something they never had?

that's a fair question, But: aren't you questioning that ChurchCo has made numerous steps towards 'mainstreaming'?

I think those of us with the long view on this must agree that things have been watered down, I add:

teachings about Kolob & 'our own planet'; that Joey gets a Pass/Fail say on each individual going to the CK. We can become Gods & Goddesses, at least the other-than-temple statements/teachings.

One more: that Adam was tempted First but didn't succumb (is that still in the temple presentation?)

some are subtle, others aren't.

eta: I think the branding change (leaving "Mormon") is a 'watering down' even though your term isn't specific enough to be proven or disproven....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2019 10:01PM by GNPE.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that's a fair question, But: aren't you
> questioning that ChurchCo has made numerous steps
> towards 'mainstreaming'?

One could argue that polygamy's disavowal is their "watering down" mechanism. Have it with the founder but deny it, acknowledge it with a successor then change it with yet another successor but never remove it. "Water it down" a bit but keep it. Seems to be their modus.

> eta: I think the branding change (leaving
> "Mormon") is a 'watering down' even though your
> term isn't specific enough to be proven or
> disproven....

If a term means anything in their theology of any significance, 'Mormon' wouldn't be one of them.

Mormonism is all about retaining the past yet accommodating their current flavor of it. Take "Voting." It is now something akin to blind acceptance like in their temple but it is a remnant of their past actually voting on things as retained in The Community of Christ.

Whatever works for you. I have yet to see something significant to change with the Brighamites.

Proposition 8 has caused them a lot of bad publicity.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_politics/California_Proposition_8

Joey was essentially a snake oil peddler who distributed whatever the early members thought they needed/wanted.

BY reminds me of Major Adams (Ward Bond) of Wagon Train, BY was somewhat a benevolent dictator, many of his behind the scenes policies & actions remain unproven or at least cloudy (murders, Danites, etc). Proven is BY's association with one John Doyle Lee who was executed for his participation in the MMM albeit mostly as a scapegoat for Briggy & Utah's desire for statehood.

most of the successors had none of the pizazz of the first two, so in that sense, they presided over a slow but continuing dilution of what Joe & Brigham started.

Maybe, but as for cults in modern times they are hugely successful and I don't think anyone here is going to argue that Mormonism isn't a cult.

When it isn't they will have been watered down.

What about oral sex? Does anybody else remember sitting through conference as a child in the 70’s and 80’s and hearing the leaders slam oral sex? Would that even be considered appropriate today, to discuss an adult topic like oral sex, in a room with kids who hadn’t even had sex-ed yet in school?

It certainly made a big impression on me as a young kid - the leaders seemed quite adamant about the slippery slope a slip-up in this regard entailed. I already understood the word oral but still had zero concept of sex and was trying to put the two together - to understand what I was NOT allowed to do when I grow up. Haha. What a way to broach the subject to kids. Do they still consider oral sex an abomination or has that been watered down too?

BI Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about oral sex? Does anybody else remember
> sitting through conference as a child in the
> 70’s and 80’s and hearing the leaders slam
> oral sex? Would that even be considered
> appropriate today, to discuss an adult topic like
> oral sex, in a room with kids who hadn’t even
> had sex-ed yet in school?
>
> It certainly made a big impression on me as a
> young kid - the leaders seemed quite adamant about
> the slippery slope a slip-up in this regard
> entailed. I already understood the word oral but
> still had zero concept of sex and was trying to
> put the two together - to understand what I was
> NOT allowed to do when I grow up. Haha. What a way
> to broach the subject to kids. Do they still
> consider oral sex an abomination or has that been
> watered down too?

me: desperately searching / knowing there's an excellent PUN here somewhere, but still searching; I'll get back to you when I find it...

FULLY INSERTED: SOAKING EPIDEMIC HITS BYU CAMPUS

http://beehivebugle.com/2014/09/05/soaking-epidemic-hits-byu-campus1/

Where's the 'Subscribe' place to push on this marvelous media maelstrom?

Why without the latest from ChurchCo on this epidemic... millions will be lost; 'Where there is not vision, the people perish' after all!

I bet students hate it when they are "dock blocked."

as far as I'm concerned, the changes in the temple ceremony answer this question in the affirmative / touch all the bases - cover all four corners.

It has a name and I will give it to you through the vail
Durfing

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Durfing

The lds youtube community is rejoicing in the changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hj9v8jJDwc