Hi, Done and Done. The thread closed before I had a chance to respond.

In the closed thread, https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2266680,2266680#msg-2266680, you wrote:



"So if I am a Boomer, and you say 'Okay Boomers' is a derogatory term, how am I not supposed to take it as a slam?

"Boomer is accepted as a certain generation and the term boomer covers all of them, so when you say 'Okay Boomers' you cannot claim to not be speaking to all of us.

"Okay Boomer does apply to a specific generation to the public at large no matter how you choose to interpret it."

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2266680,2267621#msg-2267621

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"OK, Boomer" is a meme that has been around since approximately 2015. It recently jumped from the 4chan/reddit archives and reached the Boomersphere when an NZ MP used it on the floor. It's a pithy retort to anyone who is perceived to be out of touch with reality and current problems, and it can apply to me (GenX) and to anyone who holds old and discredited ideas.

The meme world has moved on.

In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think it means what you think it means.” <-- also a meme.

Here: https://knowyourmeme.com <-- Potentially NSFW and offensive

Edited for typos, grammar, punctuation, and an attempt to make this post more cogent.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2019 02:49PM by Beth.

I want to second what D&D said about the need to evaluate people individually. That is clearly true; there are good and bad people in every generation.

I don't think, however, that means we shouldn't look at how society evolves over time. Climate change is a good example. It started centuries before anyone realized it was happening. There is no moral culpability during such a period. Things became more difficult when in the 1980s and 1990s the evidence mounted. From that point onward, whether people are willing to accept the facts and adjust course to accommodate them is not just an intellectual question but to some extent a moral one as well. But in any case it remains important to see what many generations have done and recognize the psychological and political elements of the problem in order to begin devising remedial actions.

That is what I have been trying to do with the question of inter-generational transfers of wealth. A lot of people have no clue what has happened and what is happening, and that perpetuates the problem. A few generations (including mine) have voted their pocketbooks to the point were younger people will suffer considerable privation. Much of that has involved a willful disregard not only for normative equity but even for basic arithmetic. In my view that has to change. It is critical that people come to terms with social trajectories, recognize collective error, and decide whether things need to change or not.

This is not the same as saying every member of any generation is morally culpable for any particular trend. In my view there is no inconsistency in saying that good moral people have inadvertently done things (or in some instances not done things) that have resulted in collectively immoral outcomes. There are, to take the obvious example, plenty of fine Mormon people who pay tithing unaware that they are thereby facilitating an immoral endeavor.

Recognizing macro-irresponsibility is not the same as assigning micro-blame, to put it in infelicitous terms.

Thanks for the explanation Beth.

And I should have known that "OK Boomer" includes GenX? And may include anyone else being slammed without being so specified? And it's okay to use because its popular? "Just cuz all the kids are doing it does not make it right"--to quote some old Boomers I know.

We live in a world where a nickname can take down a candidate and a meme can take down a generation, and people can be judged and cancelled so easily. You can demean a woman simply by calling her "little lady" which are nice words actually. See how well that goes down.

I also take exception to the "I do not think it means what you think it means." I know the words. I do know what it means. It means Boomers selfishly ruined everything. Doesn't mention Gen X. Sorta like another cute meme, "Talk to the hand." I am meme'd out. I want something better than this dismissiveness from people old or young.


And the NZ MP using the term does not elevate the term but lowers my opinion of her.

>> "It means Boomers selfishly ruined everything."

Funny, I read an article the other day that stated exactly that.

I suppose they think its all fun and games, and it probably is, until they find themselves on the receiving end of this type of behavior, which will happen over time.

If having a good education, fulfilling career, nice retirement plan, home nearly paid for, no debt other than whats left of my mortgage, etc. makes me out of touch with whats cool and the current trends.....I'll take that any day. But I suppose I only have that because I stole it from millenials.....sorry about that.

Its like when my son and his buddies were teens and would comment on something they thought was "cool"...which was usually some material item. I would tell them "you know whats cool? Having a good, job, nice car, no debt, money in the back, owning a home, a retirement fund, etc. That's cool!"

Yes Beth. Already knew that. I read lots of newspapers and magazine articles and like Roy mentions, there are plenty of them with the younger generation ripping Boomers to shreds. This is not news to me.

You didn't ask to be born. Neither did the millennials who have taken the brunt of adult derision for years. And my generation is super agnsty.

Out of the three, millennials win w/r/t social conscience, and they lose w/r/t their future security.

adult derision is new?

I hate on boomers and I are one.

that's funny. i've always taken you to be sunny and optimistic

Me too. I can’t fault younger generations for feeling like we Boomers stole their security. And I certainly don’t understand fellow boomers who don’t care what kind of a world they’re leaving to their grandchildren. That disturbs me more than anything. They are completely unwilling to give up any of their luxuries or experience any inconvenience to lessen the amount of discomfort and inconvenience their grandchildren WILL endure because of our generation’s excesses.

That being said, until their generations vote in proportion to their outcries of abuse, no matter how legitimate, they still bear the biggest responsibility for why it is getting worse instead of better.

Also, yeah. IIRC, I included GenX and errrrrybody in the definition of the meme in the prevously thread. Let me check.

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Yes, yes I did: https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2266680,2267581#msg-2267581

Who knew memes were so complicated?

OK Boomer :)

Wow. A meme for every occasion! Why do I feel like I am suddenly in a 5th grade class room?

I been through hell in my life and snowflake I am not.

And a meme is not something new. Memes on the internet, yes. Memes themselves are as old as civilization. So, yeah. There's a meme for every occasion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2019 04:03PM by Beth.

Yeah, but the good part is that memes will be so old school in a short while. Something new will break out that will make meme seem like My Space. Americans have the attention span of a fruit fly.

I'm ready to go back to bumperstickers.

Yep. And landlines.

I'm ready to go back to petroglyphs.

Plus, if we went back to bumper stickers, the millenials would have to buy cars!...ba dap dap ching!

No, just smaller sizes. For electric scooters.

They can stick them to their foreheads while they ride in an Uber car.

What! No more Uber? Note to self...."OK Boomer".

Done & Done Wrote:
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> I been through hell in my life and snowflake I am
> not.

But do you know Suzy?

I was raised dirt poor. By that I mean my Dad was born in a house with an actual dirt floor. He built a house when I was born while he worked as a mechanic. I don't mean he went out and found an architect and a contractor and construction crew, he did most of it himself and some wonderful neighbors showed up unasked on Saturdays to help. My elderly mother still lives there.

I started my own business in a garage. It grew slowly and has become wildly successful. Have over sixty employees. Half of them are Boomers. They are not retiring although most of us are well past the normal age and could easily. We all like to work. Have a lot of young ones too. Have to try about 15 to 20 for every keeper. Keeping some of them off their phones is nearly impossible. Just found two GenXers and two millenials that are fantastic. Needed them so badly. I just see them as people and have never wondered if as a Boomer I ruined their lives. I doubt they think that. When the going gets tough, I am the one there til 2 AM because I want them to be with their families.

So when I hear how we ruined the young ones lives, when I read it or hear it here, I always imagine the ones I had to fire for sloth as being the ones saying it. Because the Genxers and Millennials I have here just want to be a team and be proud of their work as they head way up the ladder.

You got memes. I got that.

When I was a kid we still had a black box telephone on the wall to ring for the operator (a real person).

Its nice to know who you are really talking about when you sling the derogatory memes.

Bye Felicia.

There's nothing incompatible between what you write here and the observation that since 1980 the national debt and unfunded liabilities have risen vertiginously and that young people will consequently face higher taxes and lower benefits.

I'm not sure how my observation relates to the question of "memes," except to note that perhaps one reason for the frustration and lack of motivation that employers see in young workers is the fact that the American Dream is no longer available to them. And no, I don't have evidence to support hat surmise: it is just a guess that what happened in Japan with their lost generation may occur in other rich countries as well.

I get it LW. I know the situation is a mess. America has been living on credit for too long. The bills are due now and we can't pay them with another card because that one is maxed too. I'm not saying that is not the situation. America did that.

I don't believe it is going to be fixed. Haves are separating rapidly from the have nots. The middle class is fading and did not benefit from the tax cuts. Education is outrageous.

I guess my message was, as a have not even back in the heyday when "all Boomers were getting a free ride" ;), the thing to do was assess what was available to you and make the most of it. That is still the way to go today. I was like a lioness hunting prey--every sense on over load and my eyes darting.

Out of this today? I just wanted real conversation--like you always give. Even if I don't agree and you think I'm looney. Just something substantial.

I've worked too hard and and been through too much to be called a Snowflake, a whiney snowflake, and then have someone smugly consider they won by saying it. Call me an idiot or an SoB or jerk instead. That's fine. But give me something with some meat to it.

I thought that making fun of myself would indicate that I'm not trying to be mean. I failed and accept your perception/interpretation of what I wrote. I'm sorry I called you a snowflake. Okay, Boomer? <-- sorry. I just had to do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2019 06:35PM by Beth.

All is good Beth. I always liked you and your take no prisoners approach. Weren't you the one who got me to see the flip side of being "exotic?" if I remember right. Meaning sometimes its not the compliment I thought it was.

I've just gotten very tired of reading the kinds of articles that Roy referred to in one of his comments. I started avoiding some sections of the paper. Doesn't feel good. I guess I got to my breaking point.

The only thing I can find to read now that interests me to read is a book that is a thousand pages long and is mostly only one sentence. I can't put it down.

I've been escaping this crazy world via Ursula K Le Guin although last night I finished the Earthsea books, and I started reading "Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control." I've also read a bunch about Operation Paperclip in the past. The Gottlieb book fleshes out the paperclip one and adds MK-ULTRA.

I had a nightmare where I was a reporter covering a neo-Nazi march at a strip mall or maybe Disneyland. They were all wearing Health Ledger Joker makeup. Then I couldn't find the copy editor because everyone was out back having a BBQ and drinking beer and I wasn't invited. Then I ran out of paper.

I boo shit dreams!

I read Le Guin's last book or I should say devoured it.

The book I'm reading is Ducks, Newbury Port by Lucy Ellman and it really is a thousand pages and one sentence. Sounds like you like odd stuff like I do.

Missed your Bye Felicia! Heh. Hugs to you D&D.

Yes, there are two problems. First, the inter-generational imbalance. That one will indeed get "fixed" in the way that economics fixes everything--meaning it could be a disaster--but ultimately the books will balance. That will materialize through some combination of higher taxes, effective defaults (raising the retirement age, reneging on promised benefits), and inflation. Public policy should be directed presently to mitigating that harm for young people and those not yet born. I am not confident that politicians and voters will do that.

The mal-distribution of wealth, meaning the shrinkage and impoverishment of the middle class, derives largely from the same sources: self-serving decisions by voters and, more importantly, those with the money to shape public policy and public sentiment. Otherwise, however, the phenomenon is distinct--except in the sense that both trends can only be reversed if society grows a lot more responsible.

All of which is separate from individual responsibility and individual virtue. As you say everyone tries to do the best with what they have. I would just like to see people collectively expand their horizons to include more phenomena and more people when they think about their ethical choices.

Ok Lot's Wife. First world problems are much more interesting than third world ones for the young these days and those days and future days...

"the American Dream is no longer available to them"

and here i am walking around thinking the quality of life has continued to improve over time. when did it take a dump?

People think i am old and out of touch and i am half the age of boomers. Anyone older than 25 is considered really old i swear.

From what I've observed it all begins with parents paying cell phone bills and car insurance for children who are approaching 30 years old.

And over 30. And having them move back home, some with kids. And picking up car payments and insurance. Always being there to be a buffer and pick up the tab. Some I know are working past 70 because they want to. Many are working past 70 because they had to dip into retirement savings and programs to help their kids. One dear friend of mine lost her house because she broke an annuity to pay for her grandson's divorce. She never did see a dime back even when he began making very good money. And the idea of living in their means and not off credit isn't very attractive to some of the younger folks out there. They don't worry about "what if", "The 'Rents" will be there to deal with it right? A group I belong to often has people going on and on about spending HUNDREDS on craft stuff. Making a big joke of maxing out MULTIPLE credit cards. I don't think that is amusing, I think it is appalling.

Another problem is there is not a lot of "make do" attitude out there. As D&D said, have you seen what people are putting on wedding registries? High ticket items. Some of this is due to people getting married later and having some household stuff but I know that is not always the case. And when buying a first starter home you don't NEED hardwood floors, stone counters, or expensive back splashes. You need something structurally sound that you can afford while you save too. You don't NEED the newest Iphone. You don't NEED a new car every other year.

The thing I worry about is when all the Boomers die off there is not going to be a lot left to inherit - then what? That buffer is going to be gone and a lot just are not preparing for that.

https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-survey-main-debt-credit-cards-not-student-loans-2019-9

They carry an average of $27,900 in credit card debt? How do their credit issuers even let them get that high?

I will say that I needed credit cards to help get me through grad school (I was working and had student loans, but the loans were not enough to cover my total expenses.) I went to grad school in the 1990s, when tuition was starting to go through the roof.

My niece and nephew are roughly where I was at their age -- earning a living, with things being somewhat tight. My nephew's wife has an insane student loan debt, but that is because she chose a very expensive private university. She's working in the public sector, so hopefully she can get loan forgiveness after ten years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2019 09:12AM by summer.

The credit card debt gets that high because the credit card companies pass the loss on defaults on to the rest of the responsible card holders. In the end, this method still yields big profits. If you send out a lot of risky credit cards there will still be a big enough return to off-set the losses. Cast a wide net.

That is also why insurance companies immediateley look to settle law suits rather than do the right thing. Its about the profit margin. I asked one of our lawyers this "So anyone could make up any lie and sue you and they would get some kind of settlement in about 85% of the cases." She said, "No. More like 99%. The focus is on settling. First words are 'How much can we get this down to. The goal is to get the nuisance suits that are obviously bogus under 20K." I have seen this play out over the years.


The thing is this---Boomers aren't the only ones running those type companies. Insurance companies, Credit card companies, Big Pharma, etc, AND, governments across the nation, are full of GenXers and Millenials now who probably outnumber aging Boomers. Take some credit for the mess already, kids! Take some credit.

Takes two to tango, but it takes a whole lot of people working together to make for a hot "Flash Mob." We could use one.

I was born at the tail end of the baby boom, and I'm 62. I'm going to bet that most boomers are retired or close to it.