Can a kind and knowledgeable ex Mormon talk to me about an urgent issue regarding my family?

We do not post personal information on this board. On occasion, and when both people involved agree, email info is passed through Admin, with an email to Concrete Zipper (our head Admin).

Before this happens, though, could you tell us an anonymous bit about what your urgent family issue is, or what concerns you are dealing with right now?

Sure. I’m not super comfortable posting a lot anyway. Honestly I don’t trust that the LDS’ (How do you pluralize that?) don’t have spies monitoring a place like this anyway. I rather discuss things elsewhere.

I am a divorced man with 2 daughters aged 4 and 8. I just found out that my ex secretly converted to Mormon a few months ago and has been taking the girls to church.

Looking for basic info on the church, particularly adult female converts, and ultimately ideas and strategies for protecting my daughters from becoming indoctrinated.

I am terrified of many things, not least of which the church being used to convince the girls to ostracize me since I am not LDS.

Oh boy. You landed in the right place. I was admin here for close to 20 years before I retired and I can 100% guarantee that this is a safe place. You will see my name on the stickies as admin. As long as you don't give very very specifics you are OK. I am going to pop this up quickly in hope that you will see it and then write a long one.

It's a miniture cult'.ure within the larger culture(society).
Then again all human religion is man-made. All denominations are. even Jesus himself, the character Jesus, never said to make 100's of diff denominations, I am kind of Buddhist /Hindu myself,(mystic side of that, but grew up LDS)but I like much of Jesus teachings (minus the hell/devil parts which I view as untrue). Anyway, take it from me, there is no huge worry, as the next generation gain wisdom and get older? they (& their friends will clue- them in) to the crazy parts of religion probably. The next generation has access to info we did not! back when. The church is o.k. as far as teaches to follow Jesus do good,etc. like any Christian church, and even Lds church itself, in its articles of faith, state that everyone has the right to worship as they see fit. They can simply ask to be removed as members later?

As a dad , who got custody of my 2 boys, as they grew up (wife got into drugs etc.) , usually the custodial parent in the eyes of the court has the say in what religion the children are brought up in. You can ask your attrny But that is usually the case though, sadly minors are never really asked which religion/ or denomination that they prefer? it is always up to the custodial parent. Plus who at age 8 really understands doctrine /dogma and knows what they want to identify as spiritually the rest of their life anyway? odd how it works, hopefully that will change one day.

Tell your ex, challenge her to read all the pro's and con's out there, Truth loves when you question it! so that you may more fully know the TRUTH, believe me, an all- Powerful God would not be scared of atheists and naysayers, or anyone that says anything against a religion because that would not make a God, a lover of TRUTH, nervous at all, tell her that, and to really really research all the pro's and cons and see what people are saying. about the religion. If by then, it still holds water? well okay, but I have a feeling she will smell some fishy-ness.

Don't worry too much, we are not, I repeat NOT! these categories that people love to pigeon- hole themselves into. Many people realize that, when they get older. I read tons of atheist stuff, and people converting to other religions- stuff ,on topix, youtube, reddit, etc..in my own personal spiritual journey when deciding what I wanted to "Be" and I can tell you , tons of young folks search for something better, usually begins at college age. Looking for something different, or at least something that makes sense, and fits their own personal beliefs/ philosophy. I would not worry to much/ loose sleep etc. Where I live I hear people argue if Baptist/Methodist/Episcopilian, makes the most sense I am thinking "dang dude", it does not matter!, it is all stories that represents the Higher Power/ Source, geez. The focus is on SELF-improvement, aim for the good, avoid the bad. your kids should be fine either way. Thank Goodness real info is available now, thanks to the age we live in, at one time we thought we had to be whatever our mom's said. Now? not really.

I hope that was vague and anonymous enough. I can’t be the only person in America this is happening to.

When Eric started this place 20+ years ago it was to let just one person know they were not alone. That is pretty much the motto here. There are several people who post here in your same boat. One is a long time poster who has been at this whole "spouse/exspouse is mormon problem and has seen over time how things can change. She and her husband have had quite the run! I am sure she will weigh in at some point.

Here are some tips:
Don't use names.
Keep to the state and you don't even need to do that unless you have questions about legal stuff (not that anyone is giving legal advice but some can tell you their experiences).
Knowing the ages does help. Oh boy, we gots to talk about age 8.
Stay off details.
Write up a post then reread.

It is also safe to register here. You DO need to use an email but it can be a throw away like gmail. Makes things a bit easier but it is not needed :)

Talking about me? ;-)

Well,um, now why would you think that dear :). You have valuable input. You have been rowing this boat for quite a while and your perspective is not one many here have.

I guess this is some point lol.

I think it may be helpful for me to write a short version of our backstory in a separate post. As you know, it's a long, convoluted story. I'm having my husband read this thread, too.

For the moment, I will say that the OP has already done one thing right by getting a lawyer. Unfortunately, my husband didn't have a lawyer and did not involve the court system. There was no time or money for court. Things may have been different if he'd invested in legal advice.

However... as you know, our story has had sort of a happy ending... for now, anyway.

Well, it wasn't so short... twenty years of this shit is a lot to process. But I posted a somewhat condensed version of our tale. I hope it's helpful to someone. I probably should have made chapters.

knotheadusc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, it wasn't so short... twenty years of this
> shit is a lot to process. But I posted a somewhat
> condensed version of our tale. I hope it's
> helpful to someone. I probably should have made
> chapters.

I will look for that. It is in another thread?

Yes, I specifically addressed it to you.

I'm so sorry it's so long. I hope it makes sense and is helpful. Please don't hesitate to ask questions. I am very candid and will do my best to answer honestly.

You are already doing well because you have a lawyer. My husband didn't, and that cost him... although frankly, his ex wife is so toxic and psycho that I'm not even sure going to court would have helped him.

Hopefully, your ex wife isn't as crazy as his is.

> You are already doing well because you have a
> lawyer. My husband didn't, and that cost him...
> although frankly, his ex wife is so toxic and
> psycho that I'm not even sure going to court would
> have helped him.
>
> Hopefully, your ex wife isn't as crazy as his is.

I assure you she is. If I go into details this thread will not remain anonymous. But she is. Believe me.

Question- does the church have a legal defense fund or do fundraisers or anything for someone in her position to help them “fight Satan” by fighting a non-Mormon co-custodial parent in court? I am very concerned about that. She has no financial resources but during the divorce her family dumped about $100k into her fighting me. (Don’t ask what I spent, just know that it was more and all I ended up with was 50/50.)

So I am very hesitant to re-experience that. My hope is her family is tapped out and/or not willing to spend that kind of money for the LDS church basically. As far as I know none of her family are Mormon, and if they are representative of the typical US populace some of them are likely quite negative on it.

I can’t answer that, since my husband didn’t go to court.

OK. My first question. And thank you. Thank you.

She said she got baptized basically 9 months ago. How long would you guess she was going (and probably taking the kids there) prior to that? Trying to see how long of a “head start” she has. I guess is was a few months of study and classes or something before they Baptized her, right?

Do you know who got her interested? That will help a lot. She may be what is called a hormonal convert. At nine months she is still in the Honeymoon phase. She doesn't know the reality of it, just the shiny outside. Depending how she got in may determine how long it stays shiny. Again, depending on how she got in, she may have been baptized in pretty short order. They really don't teach converts much. It is called "milk before meat". Keeping it vague, do you have any Sunday visitation? Do you have a lawyer? You may want to see about doing something from baptizing your 8 year old. Eight is the age they do it. It may not be a good thing to bring up with your child and the ex might lie. It is a hard call. But at 8 the big push is on. Not just from things like lessons and activities but from peers.

As stated, unlike many religions the mormons do not really care if the person is truly converted before baptism. There are some superficial lessons, but basically it is a numbers game for them.

The advantage, for you, may lie in your ex not being fully aware of mormon doctrine and beliefs. Once she learns them she may, like manu others, turn away from Mormonism.

One thing I'd suggest is to learn what you can of mormon history and focus on how they treat women. Your ex may not be aware mormon women do not hold positions of responsibility in the church beyond women's or children's groups. They cannot be ordained to the priesthood or be clergy. They are often treated as second class members.

Finally there are many here that will be willing to help. Good luck to you.

OK. Thanks.

I don’t know how she got interested. I suspect that she burned some bridges at her old church. When we were together she had lots of conflicts with people there.

She is very weak and insecure in the world in general. I’m sure she wasn’t a hard sell. Almost anyone could have talked to her the day she decided the old church was against her and she would have taken that as a sign.

I am going to make my best guess that she was a “milk before meat” scenario quick baptism. That’s kinda good.

Yes I have a lawyer. I have already spoke to them about this. We have 50/50 joint custody, physical and legal. She is in contempt of that legal custody for doing this, in his opinion. Have not decided what our next move is.

So 8 is when they baptize... her birthday was in the last week. Do you think they are baptizing her tomorrow? Does she have to do classes or any training to get baptized or just be 8?

If the horse is not too late I can call my attorney Monday and see if there is any such thing as me preventing the baptism with my joint custody designation. They can’t go to a doctor we don’t both agree on, can’t go to a school we don’t agree on, etc. Religious decisions are supposed to be made my mutual agreement as well.

Or would that be counterproductive? I am aware that combating this directly and/or with hostility or anger is only going to “set the hook” and drive her in deeper. I have to really rise above and not do that.

Welcome to the board! This is a safe place. I've been here about a dozen years.

I think it would be worth your while to schedule a visit with your family law attorney in order to know your rights. The LDS church is a patriarchal, high-control religion similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses. I personally would not want a child, especially a daughter, involved in it. The church baptizes at age eight. While in theory it is possible for you to forbid baptism, it might done anyway against your wishes.

Stick around as you will want to learn as much about the religion as possible. The church will train your children to see you as "lesser than," and will try to undermine your authority.

I would try to make sure that you either get the children every weekend or at least every other weekend in order to mitigate church influence.

There is a lot more, but that's a start.

ETA: I just saw your reply above. Your attorney can write a letter to the ward's (congregation's) bishop in order to forbid baptism and any private interviews. In this letter he can explain your joint legal/physical custody order. Use the "meeting house" locater link below. Mormons are assigned to wards by the church based on geographic location, so with your wife's address you can find her ward.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/meetinghouses/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2019 01:16AM by summer.

> The church will
> train your children to see you as "lesser than,"
> and will try to undermine your authority.

I suspect that has already started happening. My oldest has been having massive behavior problems. Refusing to eat, always yelling at me, slamming doors, etc. Then when her mom confessed about the Mormonism and it was no longer a secret she has really improved. And she wants to be in my lap all the time. Writes me notes saying “I love Daddy” and things like that.

I can’t help but feel that she is reacting to something.

> I would try to make sure that you either get the
> children every weekend or at least every other
> weekend in order to mitigate church influence.

What do you think is the best way to counter the church when I have them? I have historically been what is often termed “Spiritual but not religious”. I am not a member of a church and typically when I have them we don’t go to church, or pray before meals, etc.

Would I be smart to take on a more formal religious practice? Join a church? What is the best way to put counter arguments in their heads and hearts?

(I hate that I have to do this. Put my poor children in this horrible position of having to choose... but I can’t sit idly by and see them indoctrinated.)

> ETA: I just saw your reply above. Your attorney
> can write a letter to the ward's (congregation's)
> bishop in order to forbid baptism and any private
> interviews. In this letter he can explain your
> joint legal/physical custody order. Use the
> "meeting house" locater link below. Mormons are
> assigned to wards by the church based on
> geographic location, so with your wife's address
> you can find her ward.
>
> https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/meetingho
> uses/

Ooh! Just saw this! THANKS! Do you think the Bishop will obey the letter? Given that she turned 8 this week can they hurry up and rush it before the letter could be written and delivered to them?

And the Private Interviews... that’s when an old(er) man sits down and asks them questions about their sex life? Is that right? That starts at 8, too?!

Nobody asked me about anything sexual until puberty. I remember a guy explaining masturbation to me and telling me it was wrong. Before that I had no idea you could play with yourself. I verified that was indeed the case and the 40-year guilt trip started.

Be advised that Mormons have a persecution complex. In the lessons, whenever they had problems with the outside world it was because of persecution. Everywhere they went historically there was persecution. It couldn’t have been because they were bad neighbors. Until they got to Utah and practically wiped out the native population. See http://www.timpanogostribe.com/ for a less than flattering view of Brigham Young.

Concerning Native Peoples in general, it wouldn’t hurt to introduce the kids to their cosmologies. There isn’t one true origin story, there are many. If Mormons love Jesus so much, why did they they treat their neighbors with such contempt? Jesus would give the “Indians” loaves and fishes, not sacks of flour laced with ground up glass.

Mormons, or anyone with that style of thinking, specifically designate certain “others” as “less than” so that they can feel “better than”. Bullies at school will do the same thing.

> Be advised that Mormons have a persecution
> complex. In the lessons, whenever they had
> problems with the outside world it was because of
> persecution.

I was pretty much aware of this in general and as a matter of approaching my situation (knowing her) I presumed this to be the case. Which is why I am not riding in with logic and counter arguments. I am absolutely sure that will never work and will likely aid the LDS’.

> Everywhere they went historically
> there was persecution. It couldn’t have been
> because they were bad neighbors. Until they got to
> Utah and practically wiped out the native
> population. See http://www.timpanogostribe.com/
> for a less than flattering view of Brigham Young.

Similar to the view of the church toward women, their actions toward natives is a selling point to my ex, not a flaw. She is massively racist and that was one of the major factors in our divorce. We fought about Native Americans many times. She believes they deserve what they got and that it was a just reprisal for their savagery. Or put another way she believes “they started it” and shouldn’t complain that they “bit off more than they could chew.” in fighting the white man.

> Concerning Native Peoples in general, it
> wouldn’t hurt to introduce the kids to their
> cosmologies.

Absolutely on my list to do! Until now, I have been avoiding religion and religious talk. My thinking was they are still so young, believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, etc. They don’t need me riding in and casting doubt on all of that.

But I agree that is no longer the best approach. I only found out about this LDS thing 10 days ago. It has thrown me for a loop.

> There isn’t one true origin story,
> there are many. If Mormons love Jesus so much, why
> did they they treat their neighbors with such
> contempt?

I would ask that of every Christian that is not at the southern border protesting right now, but that’s another fish for another fish fry. Remember- Spritual, not religious here. =)

> Mormons, or anyone with that style of thinking,
> specifically designate certain “others” as
> “less than” so that they can feel “better
> than”. Bullies at school will do the same thing.

I have seen that. Did I mention yet that I spent portions of my childhood in a Utah adjacent state? I have seen it.

>>And the Private Interviews... that’s when an old(er) man sits down and asks them questions about their sex life? Is that right? That starts at 8, too?!

Yes, the private interviews start when children are young. They are definitely interviewed before baptism at age 8. While the interviews for the young children are not too bad, you want to forbid your children from having private interviews with a grown man on principle. Keep in mind that bishops hold down normal jobs (usually from the business or professional sector,) and are untrained in pastoral counseling. They are just your neighbor down the street. Some are wonderful and some are awful. They run the range.

The invasive interviews have traditionally started around age 12. I don't know if the church is still officially condoning them, but it can take awhile for bishops to toe the line. Some never will. We have had reports on this board of children being asked about masturbation habits as early as age 12. The church frowns on masturbation and sees it as being a sin. Some children have had their innocence destroyed by this type of interview.

> ETA: I just saw your reply above. Your attorney
> can write a letter to the ward's (congregation's)
> bishop in order to forbid baptism and any private
> interviews.

OK, I looked it up and its the church she takes them to. Is it that simple? Is every church its own ward and has a bishop? There is one building and bishop per ward?

I guess I’m used to other denominations where a Bishop is over lots of churches, and a ward could have multiple churches in it as well.

Also, It seems they don’t name the churches, is that right? It’s just “The LDS Church on such and such street”, not St. Whoever or The Blessed Blah blah blah?

An LDS meetinghouse will quite often host more than one ward, or congregation. Members are assigned to wards based on where they live, and they are expected to attend their assigned ward. The wards in one meeting house will meet at different times, i.e. 8:00 A.M., 11:00 A.M, and 2:00 P.M. A Mormon bishop is equivalent to a priest, minister, or pastor. Each ward will have its own bishop. The next highest administrator is the Stake President, who would be the equivalent of a bishop in any other church. The SP is in charge of all the wards in a given region.

To give a hypothetical example: The LDS Meeting House at 35th and Pine hosts the Highland ward, the Rocky River ward, and the Mesa ward.

Branches are smaller units than wards and are used when a given congregation is not large enough to be called a ward. Branches also have bishops.

As you can see, the LDS church has unique terminology that will take some time to absorb.

Upon reflection, it would be ideal to have your lawyer copy his letter to the Stake President as well as the bishop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2019 01:53AM by summer.

> To give a hypothetical example: The LDS Meeting
> House at 35th and Pine hosts the Highland ward,
> the Rocky River ward, and the Mesa ward.

> As you can see, the LDS church has unique
> terminology that will take some time to absorb.

I will catch on. 2 Wards are mentioned at her church/building.

One speaking English and one Spanish. I’m going to guess that is not uncommon.

> Upon reflection, it would be ideal to have your
> lawyer copy his letter to the Stake President as
> well as the bishop.

Got it, Bishop and Stake President. Can he just address them by those titles, or do we need to find out their exact names? If so can we look those up somewhere as well?

I am disappointed he didn’t bring this up when we spoke about this last week. I’m guessing he’s never been in this exact situation and didn’t know this could be done.

Can I charge him for Continuing Education credits?!

Yes, sometimes there are wards or branches devoted to members who speak a particular language or share a particular culture.

I wouldn't expect your lawyer to know the ins and outs of the Mormon church. As I stated before, it's a high control religion with its own ways of doing things. We can help you with anything you need to know.

It would be best if your lawyer had the names of the bishop and the SP. You will need to do some digging on the web to find those names.

> A Mormon bishop is equivalent to a
> priest, minister, or pastor. Each ward will have
> its own bishop. The next highest administrator is
> the Stake President, who would be the equivalent
> of a bishop in any other church.

> Branches are smaller units than wards and are used
> when a given congregation is not large enough to
> be called a ward. Branches also have bishops.
>
> As you can see, the LDS church has unique
> terminology that will take some time to absorb.

OK, I went to the locator for her Meetinghouse and it does not list a Bishop, it lists "Branch President XXXXX".

So is that the person the letter needs to go to? Or does she have a Bishop also that I need to try to find the name of?

Maybe they have changed their title for leaders of branches?

Going to look for the Stake President next... Let me know if I still need to dig for the name of a Bishop as well (in addition to the Branch President, who's name I have.)

Wards have bishops. Branches (units too small to be designated wards) have branch presidents. They are equivalent.

To follow up on a previous point, here is how children "choose" baptism. It's pure manipulation of course, but it allows mormons to justify themselves.

Mormons: "Mommy and Jesus want you to be baptized. You don't want to make Mommy and Jesus sad, do you?"
Child: "No, I don't want to make Mommy and Jesus sad."
Mormons: "All your friends here have been baptized. You want to be like them, right?"
Child (wanting to fit in): "Yes, I want to be like my friends."
Mormons: "You want to be baptized then, right?"
Child (not understanding the ramifications): "Yes, I want to be baptized."

Presto! Children "choose" baptism. Ends justify means.

The Branch President is the leader of a branch. He is equivalent to a bishop. I would address it to "President So-and-So."

Hoh boy. I missed commenting on Sunday visitation... I have just as much custody as she does. So I don’t have visitation at all. I have joint custody.

So I have them at least 50% of the time and every other weekend, which includes Sundays. So even in the past 9 months or so she’s been taking them there, its only been half time at best.

And similarly, going forward, I have at least half of the time to present them with counter lessons and counter examples of how life and love and God and their futures can be.

Regarding the role of women in the church... I am certain that was a selling point for her. As I stated she is very insecure and weak and can not take care of herself and doesn’t want to. She is highly educated and works for $12/hr. She does not WANT to be in charge of anything or have responsibility.

I certainly hope she joined rashly and will discover something that prompts her to leave. But I can assure you that women having a subservient role will not be the thing.

Mormons aren't supposed to baptize kids without both parents' consent. But that doesn't always stop them; god's laws are higher than man's laws etc. This is something your attorney can sink his teeth into.

Mormonism is a cult with A LOT of bulls*** doctrine. If the girls are going to church, you can ask what they've "learned," and show them precisely why the church is bulls***.

Spend a few weeks here and you'll know more about the church than 99% of mormons. Not joking.

> Mormons aren't supposed to baptize kids without
> both parents' consent. But that doesn't always
> stop them; god's laws are higher than man's laws
> etc. This is something your attorney can sink his
> teeth into.

I will put my attorney on it first thing Monday morning.

> Mormonism is a cult with A LOT of bulls***
> doctrine. If the girls are going to church, you
> can ask what they've "learned,"

This may sound naive, but I have so far pretty much entirely resisted the urge to pump my kids for information. That can be so damaging and is so wrong. I don’t typically ask about what goes on at Mom’s, etc. I just don’t want to do that to them. I probably take the high road too much, but I want them to be able to be kids. I should be able to deal with this with her, and/or attorneys.

I think she was keeping this a secret for a reason. Less clear is why she suddenly blurted it out and confessed. The oldest child seems to be to have been aware of the secret keeping. She is keen, intelligent and intuitive. If I pump her for information she’s going to perceive that as something Mommy wouldn’t want her to talk to Daddy about and put more conflict in her heart. =(

> and show them
> precisely why the church is bulls***.

This was my first thought and I have pretty much abandoned it. My thought is that direct, confrontational interaction is going to “prove their point” that Daddy is crazy, not of God, whatever. Plus they are so young... I don’t know if they have enough life experience to understand why a given doctrine or belief doesn’t make sense. They still believe in Santa Claus!

> Spend a few weeks here and you'll know more about
> the church than 99% of mormons. Not joking.

I would say I already know more than she does, at least about the doctrines and beliefs. I grew up in a state adjacent to Utah with at least a 50% Mormon population. I had Mormon friends, dated a Mormon girl, etc.

That said I’ve never been in the church and so don’t know specifics like timelines and such. And I certainly don’t know everything. I still have lots to learn. But if I know 20% I bet she knows 10%.

One more thing - you do NOT want your daughters to get baptized into this so-called church. In my opinion, this is a hill to die on. Fight tooth and nail to prevent it. Your girls are too important for them to become part of this patriarchal, misogynistic organization.

This is a culture where girls/women are slut-shamed for showing bare shoulders. Females have "modesty" drilled into them and are made to feel responsible for men's sexual thoughts. It is quite possible that even your 4-year-old daughter will be compelled to conform to mormon "modesty" standards. Yes, it's that bad.

> One more thing - you do NOT want your daughters to
> get baptized into this so-called church. In my
> opinion, this is a hill to die on.

I already agree with you, but can you elaborate?

Why is baptism such a big, scary deal?

This is my frame of reference. They were previously baptized as infants in my ex’s previous (Protestant) church. They just walked away from that to become Mormon. I was baptized as an infant into some church...not even sure which one. Lutheran, maybe. I’ve never felt like I was “trapped” and couldn’t “not be Lutheran”.

I mean to me the biggest issue is the ongoing indoctrination, which frankly I can’t stop. It’s not illegal and she has them half the time and can take them to LDS church on her time if she wants to.

So whether or not they have dunked her in some water (how do they do it?) and whether or not I can stop that, the battle isn’t over. She will still take them to the church and they will still get all the messages.

That’s why I wonder if I shouldn’t join a progressive, mainstream church myself to provide a healthy and organized counter-example for them to compare and contrast with.

> Your girls are too important
> for them to become part of this patriarchal,
> misogynistic organization.

Agreed. That is a large portion of my motivation. I did not have them to become breeding stock. If they want to marry, have kids, even lots of kids, great, so long as its truly their choice.

But they have to also be free to choose to have no kids, be gay if they are, be a leader or a doctor or whatever they want to do. I won’t have some cult limiting their horizons. Not without a fight.

The reason that you don't want them baptized is that baptism puts them on the church records. This often causes people to be hounded relentlessly via phone calls, texts, and home visits even if they stop attending. This is a *very* invasive church. Even if your wife stops attending, some church busybody might show up on her doorstep offering to take the kids to church on her behalf.

I agree with Lot's Wife that a measured approach might be best. I personally would still get that letter to the bishop and SP to stop the eight year old from being baptized, and to forbid private 1-on-1 interviews with the bishop. But for now, I would go easy on your kids.

The best thing that you can do for your kids in this situation is to introduce critical thinking skills. You can ask them what they are learning in school, and also in their church lessons. It can be a powerful thing for a parent to disagree with something -- "Hmm. That is interesting. I don't think I agree with that. I believe that...(etc.)" It lets kids know that their own opinions about things matter.

> The reason that you don't want them baptized is
> that baptism puts them on the church records. This
> often causes people to be hounded relentlessly via
> phone calls, texts, and home visits even if they
> stop attending. This is a *very* invasive church.
> Even if your wife stops attending, some church
> busybody might show up on her doorstep offering to
> take the kids to church on her behalf.

Good to know. Thank you.

> I agree with Lot's Wife that a measured approach
> might be best. I personally would still get that
> letter to the bishop and SP to stop the eight year
> old from being baptized, and to forbid private
> 1-on-1 interviews with the bishop. But for now, I
> would go easy on your kids.

I am going to get that letter moving. First thing Monday AM. Hopefully he can get it done quickly.

> The best thing that you can do for your kids in
> this situation is to introduce critical thinking
> skills.

I’ve thought about that. Are there maybe board or card games that could exercise critical thinking skills that just seem like innocent games?

> You can ask them what they are learning in
> school, and also in their church lessons. It can
> be a powerful thing for a parent to disagree with
> something --

Yeah, doesn’t that sidle up right next to “putting down the other parent” which is like the Golden Gospel No-No of divorced co-parenting?

Maybe I need to take that risk and step out into the gray area... I get that. Again, I have been told I take the high road too often...

> "Hmm. That is interesting. I don't
> think I agree with that. I believe that...(etc.)"
> It lets kids know that their own opinions about
> things matter.

Yeah, I was reinforcing that already!! LDS or no, I am raising capable, assertive, confident women! I make sure I validate their thoughts and ideas all the time. Problem solving skills, etc. This Dad praises them when they show independence, not obedience.

The church has this conceit that it essentially owns its members and has the right to demand their time, talents, money, etc. for life. It makes a big deal about "baptismal covenants" and how 8-year-old children "choose" to get baptized. Once you are an officially baptized and confirmed member, you are expected to "sustain and support" church leaders, top to bottom, by obeying them. Obedience to church leaders is seen as the cardinal virtue in mormonism. If you disobey or start openly questioning, then you are breaking your baptismal covenants; it is a hammer that the church does not hesitate to use.

Baptism sets the individual down this "covenant path" of lifetime blind obedience. And that's why you want to stop it at all costs.

When I mentioned to ask about what they were learning, I didn't intend it as a confrontation, instead I meant simply to ask what concepts they had been taught. For example, they might be taught about Noah and the ark. (Mormons are supposed to take Genesis literally.) Then you explain why Noah's Ark and the global flood are impossible. Stuff like that.

> Baptism sets the individual down this "covenant
> path" of lifetime blind obedience. And that's why
> you want to stop it at all costs.

Regarding this and the other detailed comments about why I want to prevent the Baptism, thank you. I get it. If they do that then administratively she in in their books and they will hammer and guilt her potentially for the rest of her life. Got it.

> When I mentioned to ask about what they were
> learning, I didn't intend it as a confrontation,
> instead I meant simply to ask what concepts they
> had been taught. For example, they might be taught
> about Noah and the ark. (Mormons are supposed to
> take Genesis literally.) Then you explain why
> Noah's Ark and the global flood are impossible.
> Stuff like that.

Here’s my two cents on that- they taught about Noah’s Ark in her old church and Daddy didn’t say anything... Also if I ask about what she’s learning and she says Noah’s Ark and I argue against it she is highly likely to tell her Mom about the conversation. In fact I pretty much guarantee you my ex is not “taking the high I road” like I do and has no hesitance to pump the kids for information. So my presumption is that if I contradict something Mommy says, she is going to find out about it. Especially if it is a church thing. I am quite certain she is on the lookout for such things.

Here is an internal church document that shows the many ways that the Mormon church will try to track down its members:

https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/wiki/Locating_members

> The church has this conceit that it essentially
> owns its members and has the right to demand their
> time, talents, money, etc. for life. It makes a
> big deal about "baptismal covenants" and how
> 8-year-old children "choose" to get baptized.

Ok, this really makes my blood boil. She didn’t “choose” or her parents to get divorced... she doesn’t get to “choose” where she lives... big life long things are not in the purview of children this young to “choose” for themselves. That’s why parents have responsibility to make those decisions for them until they are 18!!

Which again I have been awarded JUST AS MUCH of as her (50/50 everything down the line) by the courts.

> Obedience to church leaders is seen as the
> cardinal virtue in mormonism. If you disobey or
> start openly questioning, then you are breaking
> your baptismal covenants; it is a hammer that the
> church does not hesitate to use.

Got it. Take away the hammer (prevent the baptism) and at least they have less to work with. Although I am sure they will still hammer with a stick or a brick even if they don’t have a full on hammer.

The advice summer, synonymous, and susan are giving is excellent, as always. I would add simply that you should consider being cautious about how you handle this.

If it becomes an issue of conflict with your ex, the children could be caught in the middle and suffer. Sometimes it's wise to go slowly and see if nature moves in your direction, meaning that perhaps your ex decides she doesn't like Mormonism and decides to quit or slides into inactivity. Sometimes the best way to win a fight is not to wage one.

I don't know your situation, but I'd think about avoiding escalation until (and if) necessary.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The advice summer, synonymous, and susan are
> giving is excellent, as always. I would add
> simply that you should consider being cautious
> about how you handle this.
>
> If it becomes an issue of conflict with your ex,
> the children could be caught in the middle and
> suffer. Sometimes it's wise to go slowly and see
> if nature moves in your direction, meaning that
> perhaps your ex decides she doesn't like Mormonism
> and decides to quit or slides into inactivity.
> Sometimes the best way to win a fight is not to
> wage one.
>
> I don't know your situation, but I'd think about
> avoiding escalation until (and if) necessary.

I fully agree. I am going to do the legal stuff, the letter. If that is seen as escalating I can’t help that. I will not sit idly by and not object to this- particularly since she is in contempt of the court order. If I don’t assert my rights she will be able to argue down the line that I didn’t care because I didn’t assert them.

But that said I am going with the “kill them with kindness” approach and not being confrontational or sarcastic or anything. I have told her that I am happy for her and fully support her exploring her spiritual path, etc. I am stating that my position is not that she is wrong for converting, but that she must respect my court ordered rights to include me.

I mean she hates me. We just completed a horrible, interstate divorce and custody battle not so long ago. She is absolutely in a place where she already believes the worst of me. If I give her negativity that is going to be like a hammer driving her deeper.

And I just refuse to cause my children any distress I can avoid. As I stated earlier,this should not be their problem or concern. They should be allowed to just be kids.

Your approach strikes me as wise.

Thank you everyone. I haven’t slept for 2 days now worrying about all of this. I am going to try to lay down now. If I am able to sleep please know that you helped calm my soul and mind by talking to me tonight, and that I appreciate it.

Looking forward to seeing what has been added when I wake up and check this thread again.

"But if I know 20% I bet she knows 10%." My guess is that she knows less than that. Knowledge and truth are not things they stress lol. She was a "Golden Contact" meaning they thought they could dunk her. Now, since she is a single woman she doesn't have the social desirability. They have been "love bombing" all of them but this should start to slow down if not stop. She is a convert, she is single, she has kids and most important - she doesn't have a lot of money or a high profile prestigious job. If she finds one to date, her social standing will ride on his. She may find that it just isn't what she thought it was going to be and quit on her own.

It is very important you not allow baptism. Lawyer needs to write asap, doesn't need to be long and the Bish and SP only need to be referred to as Mr. not a title. Short, to the point, Dear Mr. X and Mr. Z, per my client's divorce decree his children, A and B may not be baptized into your religion until they reach age 18. If you have any questions, I can be contacted at Mr. Mean Lawyer, 222 Biteme Ave. You need to have it sent to the SP because some Bishops run things like their own little kingdom but the chain of command is strong and knowing the SP knows will keep the Bish in line. Not allowing it is important because once you do, you BELONG to them even at age 8. They will slap a number on her, track her (oh the stories you will hear here), contact her at her home and possibly other places. You can't just quit. It is not like a real church. It is more like joining a Pyramid Company. You have to write a formal letter for hell sakes. https://www.exmormon.org/remove.htm

Putting your daughter into this at all is a bad idea. She is confused, divorce ain't easy on anyone and kids always blame themselves. DO please get her into some kind of counseling where she can talk to someone she can be honest with. Someone she doesn't feel she needs to protect. Someone might be able to figure out what they are currently teaching in her year. That will give you a good idea in how to be supportive. Do work with her on problem solving and deductive reasoning. Don't laugh at me but I am old and Nancy Drew helped me. There are other series out there I can't remember at the moment but you get the idea. Follow the clues and make a hypothesis. Don't buy a Barbie unless it has a job. She is not too young to start coding. https://www.sphero.com/ has some great starter bots and they are not TOO expensive. If you get a round one make sure to get a Nubby Cover to protect it outside. Do include your 4 year old. They are using them starting in 1st grade now and kids will shock you what they can pick up. At 4, you have a bit more time but they are working on her too but it is more subtle. It really is not a joke about slut shaming at that age.

As to joining a church, I would wait. Let the councilor guide you on this one.

**Adding - Clue and Guess Who are good board games.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2019 02:55AM by Susan I/S.

>Lawyer needs to write asap, doesn't need to be long and the Bish and SP only need to be referred to as Mr. not a title

If you don't know the name of the bishop,you can get his last name from the meetinghouse locator map. If you click on the location of the building you get a list of all wards that meet there. Click on the appropriate ward and you will find the bishop listed as "bishop last name"

You may also want your lawyer to send a copy to member records in Salt Lake City letting them know that you do not consent to having your children baptised. If your divorce decree requires your consent for your children to join the mormon church, make that known to headquarters in SLC.

> She was
> a "Golden Contact" meaning they thought they could
> dunk her.

I see you have met her. LOL

My humor is improving with 4 hrs of sleep and hope and support from you guys. Thank you.

At any rate, when I was in sales we called them “pumpkins”. People who were basically selling themselves.

> Now, since she is a single woman she
> doesn't have the social desirability.

I have been wondering about this. Do you mean in the church culture/congregation she has less social desirability? Because I do believe that would be so.

She is older and already has 2 kids who are in a joint situation with a non-Mormon. Even if she got married to a Mormon tomorrow I don’t see how she could have more than 2 more kids at her age. (She is mid thirties.) And I am quite certain that she does not want more kids. I’m not even sure she wants the second one she has.

So why would any kind of serious Mormon man ever marry that? Unless he was sterile himself or maybe older and his kids were up and out and he wanted to “Step Dad” my kids in the church or something.

It would seem to me that her dating prospects would be VERY limited in that culture. In fact, I would hazard to guess that at some point that COULD prompt her to leave. If she hangs out there long enough and realizes that no one there will date or marry her, she’s going to date someone outside the church. And when they frown on that I can see her bolting.

Ironically, she falsely accused me of abuse in the divorce. (Which was 2-3 years prior to this LDS situation). We soundly defeated those assertions in court because they weren’t true and thus she could not prove or substantiate her claims. But one of the things she accused me of was being “controlling”. I know what you’re saying - “She will hate the LDS’ then.” Yeah, I think she just might. Right now they are love bombing her so she doesn’t see it that way. But as soon as they oppose her on something she really wants to do (like dating outside the church, which she will want to do if no one in the church will date her) I believe she could turn on them and declare them “controlling”.

> She is a
> convert, she is single, she has kids and most
> important - she doesn't have a lot of money or a
> high profile prestigious job. If she finds one to
> date, her social standing will ride on his. She
> may find that it just isn't what she thought it
> was going to be and quit on her own.

That brings up this question- someone earlier called their adult convert baptisms a “numbers game”. I’m sure no one really knows, but for my peace of mind what percent of new converts such as her do you think they lose? 20%? More?

> It is very important you not allow baptism.
> Lawyer needs to write asap, doesn't need to be
> long and the Bish and SP only need to be referred
> to as Mr. not a title. Short, to the point, Dear
> Mr. X and Mr. Z, per my client's divorce decree
> his children, A and B may not be baptized into
> your religion until they reach age 18.

Got it. So on it.

> You can't
> just quit. It is not like a real church. It is
> more like joining a Pyramid Company.

Again, sadly, more selling points to my ex. She was always falling for pyramid schemes. And when I discouraged them I was deemed “controlling”. See why I know if I oppose her directly it will have the opposite intended effect?

> DO
> please get her into some kind of counseling where
> she can talk to someone she can be honest with.
> Someone she doesn't feel she needs to protect.

The good news is- she already is. I take her to a great counselor. The bad news is- this is also subject to the 50/50 legal custody and my ex can withdraw her consent for my daughters to see any counselor or physician at any time. If get gets wind that the counselor is “against her” in any way, she will simply fire them.

Again, I know because this has already happened over other issues. More than once. As soon as a counselor says something she doesn’t like or if she feels they aren’t sufficiently “on her side” she fires them. And I can do nothing about it. In a 50/50 situation the “no” carries the day.

> Someone might be able to figure out what they are
> currently teaching in her year. That will give
> you a good idea in how to be supportive.

I have formally asked for this. On the advise of my attorney I sent her a letter asking for copies of all curricula they are being presented with in the church. Just as I am entitled to review any medical record or school text book I am entitled to review those materials. She has not yet responded to my request. Do you think she will? Will the church let her? I’m sure she will take the letter straight to them and do whatever they tell her to.

Some of my friends (none of whom are ex-Mormon or super knowledgeable about them) think they will. That they will see this as a chance to convert me and thus will jump at the chance to prostelytize me in the guise of informing me about my kids’. My gut says they are coming from their experience with other denominations and that Mormons are going to see me as the enemy and far too dangerous to “let in the hen house”. I’m smart, I’m educated, I’m mature and established. No one is going to convert me.

> Do work
> with her on problem solving and deductive
> reasoning. Don't laugh at me but I am old and
> Nancy Drew helped me.

Got it. Good idea. Age-appropriate child mysteries.

> Don't buy a Barbie unless it has a job. She is
> not too young to start coding.

I have always asked them what they want to do when they grow up. We do science projects all the time. I take them to construction sites and we talk about the equipment and watch them work. They can name every kind of truck, crane, backhoe, trencher...

Even before the LDS issue I have always stressed that they need to be able to take care of themselves someday and that they need an education and to learn skills. I figured they will get the message they can be a mother and have a family. No woman ever grows up and says “I didn’t know that was an option!”. So I spend my time and effort enforcing the opposite. Be someone. Do something.

> As to joining a church, I would wait. Let the
> councilor guide you on this one.

If you mean the child’s counselor, I can’t do that. If I involve them in this conflict she will fire them and they won’t have a counselor any more.

As far as joining a church... I am certainly exploring the concept. When I don’t have them I am talking to people and doing research. I am starting by looking for their outward, non-doctrinal stances. I know I am going to have issues with doctrine or scripture of some type everywhere. I always have.

However if I can find a church that talks the talk AND walks the walk on the issues I want my children to learn, I will consider swallowing my doctrinal disagreements and participating and taking them.

Specifically the church must support and actively promote:

Gender equality, including representation for females in the clergy and church hierarchy.

Racial equity and cultural inclusion. Tolerance for other faiths.

Pro LGBTQ rights and personhood.

Openness and acceptance of questioning and critical thinking.

Those are the biggies I am looking for.

Older single women and single/divorced moms are at the bottom of the food chain in the Mormon church. Right now they are love-bombing your ex and making her and the kids feel welcome in the church. But soon the social pecking order will take over. Mormonism places a *huge* emphasis on marriage. Older single women and divorced women are marginalized and treated poorly.

Look for Exminion's responses to posts on the board. She has written extensively about what it is like to be a divorced mom in the church.

The church members will encourage your ex to marry within the church, but the pickings can be slim at her age.

Also, Mormon marriages can come quickly. This is due in part to the church's prudishness about sex. It's not terribly unusual for members to be engaged within a few weeks of meeting, and to be married a few months later.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2019 08:51AM by summer.

I don't know if you've gotten to my story yet, but let me just tell you that mid 30s is not too old for more kids. My husband's ex wife talked my husband into having a vasectomy because pregnancy was "hard" on her. He did it because she had a son and their two daughters and convinced him that she was "done".

Well... she married her third husband and got pregnant two months after their wedding. She was 35 at the time. At 39, she had another child, bringing her grand total to five. Meanwhile, I have only married once and am mom to dogs. :'(

You may also want to make sure she doesn't hook up with a Mormon guy who tries to take over your role as father, which also happened to my husband. Since you're not LDS, she could even get sealed to that guy... which is a whole 'nother ball of wax. Your kids would be considered his kids in the afterlife if they joined the church. My husband was sealed to his ex wife and she got her son from her first marriage sealed to him, as well as their daughters.

As far as I know, they're still sealed, even though he resigned. I have heard resigning cancels sealings, but others have claimed that the church still considered sealings intact unless there was a "temple divorce".

Of course, it's all bullshit anyway, but believing in the bullshit contributes to the psychological entanglements that can occur within the family. For a long time, it bugged me that my husband was sealed to his ex and that she thought she had a hold on him after we're all dead... but I don't care anymore, because it's all made up anyway. She probably uses the whole sealing thing as a means of controlling her current victim, because women can only be sealed to one man, while men can be sealed to more than one woman.

Well, I’ve lived through a similar situation, only I was a still a member when my ex divorced me. We were both converts, but my daughters were too young for baptism at the time. Ex remarried a few months before I did and had them baptized when they became of age. Elove, unlike you I didn’t have joint custody, and my ex relocated them clear across the country, ostensibly to make visitation more difficult. It wasn’t long afterward that both daughters were alienated, and didn’t speak to me anymore. That was 2005. In 2016 things changed when I regained contact with my youngest daughter.

Like everyone else here, I strongly recommend you leverage your rights under joint custody to forbid baptism, at least right now. You would be best to have your lawyer blitz every level of the Church’s hierarchy, if only to have a record of the demand made at more than one level. Fight it (if you have to), on the grounds that your daughters are adjusting emotionally to the divorce and are therefore vulnerable to manipulation. When you have visitation, if the ask you why you object, explain to them that it’s an important decision they should have to make on their own, and that if they are getting “love bombed” by all these great people right now, there’s no guarantee that will last. Frame your fight in such a way that they can see you care about them.

About joining a different church to model a different choice. I recommend against doing so unless you truly want to. Mormonism is based on a very unique world view that often leaves members believing they are separate and select from non members. Missionaries are taught to lead investigators (potential converts) into conclusions that any agreeable or good feelings they may experience during lessons are signs that the church is true. It’s a misrepresentation of Gnosis that people fall for all the time. If you are spiritual rather than religious, then model all the positives that come with that to your daughters. Show them that freedom of choice is our greatest opportunity as humans.

Finally learn all you can about Mormon history, doctrine, and world view, especially the “meat”, which arguably reads more like an episode of the TV series “Lucifer”.

Good luck.

Elove, here's one more point that you and your lawyer should know about. The church requires a 10% tithe. Legally, your wife should not be tithing on any child support funds that she gets from you, but she might be doing it anyway. I don't know if there is any way to prevent it, but do give your lawyer the heads-up that this may be happening.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elove, here's one more point that you and your
> lawyer should know about. The church requires a
> 10% tithe. Legally, your wife should not be
> tithing on any child support funds that she gets
> from you, but she might be doing it anyway. I
> don't know if there is any way to prevent it, but
> do give your lawyer the heads-up that this may be
> happening.

Thanks. I knew about the tithe. I am sure she is giving them my child support money. And I’m really sure the court won’t do anything about it, and if they did she would probably do it anyway.

But I will absolutely make sure my attorney knows it and incorporates it if possible.

As I stated, I already talked to him about this and my objection to it and he had me right her a letter formally objecting to this violation of the decree. I have not, in the letter or anywhere else, presented an objection to the LDS church. When discussing that I have only said I support her faith journey and wish her all the best.

But I don’t think he has dealt with this before, as he did not know to suggest the letter, that 8 was the big deal age, etc.

So I’m sure when I tell him all this, he will get on the phone and find an attorney he knows how has done it. They will tell him what will and won’t fly in our state.

It’s a very regressive, conservative “Mommy state” here in the family courts. You wouldn’t believe the stuff I’ve endured already. Here people tell me “You did great! You got joint custody! You won!” But other places tell me “Oh she would have gone to jail for that if she tried it here...”

Thank you for all the input, everyone. I just got off the phone with my attorney and we are on this. May not get it out this week, given the holiday and everything, but the Branch President and Stake President should have copies next week, with another one on its way to Member Records in SLC.

Thank you all for your time and support.

It sounds like you are on top of things. We are glad to help you. Feel free to reach out as much as you want to.