I've been out of church for a long time and I've always maintained that the idea that leavers are sinners or lazy or other is doctrinal.

That culture follows doctrine.

A family member recently left the church and made a big splash on social media.

He explained in his announcement that members need to re-think the culture that automatically assumes bad things about those who leave and provide a list.

He's had many family and friends contact him and explain that they don't think that people who leave are sinning, lazy etc. etc.

That this doesn't cross their minds.

My take is that if a member truly doesn't assume something bad about a leaver, they don't understand lds doctrine. They don't understand the church they profess to know is true.

You can't skate from facing this reality if you are a member by saying to the leaver that my culture isn't other mormon's "culture" as a result.

Any thoughts on this appreciated

I agree with your take.

Members may say they don't judge those who leave, but they MUST blame the reason the church failed on the person and not the church for the "truth" to work.

If they admit to themselves that the person left because the "doctrine" is deeply flawed, that would call into question their whole world view.

They must, at some level, decide the person didn't understand correctly or has some personal flaw or reason they can't "see the truth of the gospel."

When I was a TBM, I figured people left because they were offended. It turned out I was right. The church is naturally offensive.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I was a TBM, I figured people left because
> they were offended. It turned out I was right. The
> church is naturally offensive.

This forum needs a like button. =)

Absolutely true.

So what if people left because they were offended? That's what I do when I don't like a movie or find a dinner party boring.

What is wrong with being offended by the offensive?

ratatattat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been out of church for a long time and I've
> always maintained that the idea that leavers are
> sinners or lazy or other is doctrinal.
>
> That culture follows doctrine.
>
> A family member recently left the church and made
> a big splash on social media.
>
> He explained in his announcement that members need
> to re-think the culture that automatically assumes
> bad things about those who leave and provide a
> list.
>
> He's had many family and friends contact him and
> explain that they don't think that people who
> leave are sinning, lazy etc. etc.
>
> That this doesn't cross their minds.
>
> My take is that if a member truly doesn't assume
> something bad about a leaver, they don't
> understand lds doctrine. They don't understand
> the church they profess to know is true.
>
> You can't skate from facing this reality if you
> are a member by saying to the leaver that my
> culture isn't other mormon's "culture" as a
> result.
>
> Any thoughts on this appreciated

I have come to believe that the powers that be are well rehearsed bearers of false witness.(ten commandments issue) I think that they would rather lie when it is cheaper to tell the truth.

I agree. I believe that LDS doctrine creates LDS culture. Mormons generally argue that doctrine and culture are completely separate things, but I think that's just a way to blame the bad and unpleasant things that happen in the church on its members.

“Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.”

― Ralph Waldo Emerson

Worth considering: Does doctrine sow thoughts?

What does saying something "is doctrinal" even mean? Culture is clearly a human fabrication, but then so is doctrine. If the "not valiant in the pre-existence" belief about African ancestry was not doctrinal, I don't know what is.

It got reclassified as culture by the Q15 in their essay collection a few years ago. Basically anything is subject to being dropped or reversed. Polygamy, priesthood eligibility, no death prior to Adam, the BoA, that other churches are abominations - all thrown under the bus, or at the very least, ignored.

There is no doctrine. It is all 100% culture.

Good point. So true.

Great effort is made to avoid cannon that locks them into a view permanently.

My favorite is when a GA speaks, it is supposed to be doctrine. Then it turns out he was only speaking as a man.

It's all so slippery. Religion in general is set up so people can find whatever view on any topic they want to support.

Are cultural Mormonism and cultural Marxism in anyway related?

I understood cultural marxism to be a derogatory term used to refer to people who have liberal views. I'm not sure if there are people who identify themselves as cultural marxists.

That’s an inside joke. There was a colorful poster here a few months ago who threw the term around with wild abandon until Lot’s Wife pulled the cover off the heavy artillery. This place has its moments.

opted out of his church and "unsubscribed" as one of his followers.

The scriptures refer to people falling away and that's always equated with sin in the eyes of Mormons. Leaving the church is falling away. And it is considered doctrinal that the worst sin is to deny ("sin against") the Holy Ghost. It's called the "unpardonable sin".


--> "The unpardonable sin is to willfully deny and defy the Holy Ghost after having received His witness."

--> "No man can sin against light until he has it; nor against the Holy Ghost, until after he has received it by the gift of God through the appointed channel or way. To sin against the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, the Witness of the Father and the Son, wilfully denying him and defying him, after having received him, constitutes [the unpardonable sin]."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-8?lang=eng

Virtually by definition, leaving the church equals living in sin. According to Mormon logic, if you once had a true testimony, it came to you as a gift of the Holy Ghost. Turning your back on that and leaving the church means rejecting the Holy Ghost...which means you have committed an unpardonable sin.

If you claim that you never really had a testimony, and then leave the church, that means that your baptism was without effect and you therefore had no remission of sin. You're in a better state than if you had received and then rejected the witness of the Holy Ghost. But you have never received divine forgiveness of your sins and therefore are a sinner by definition.

Sin is not just breaking the Word of Wisdom and screwing around.

If you're in the church and then you leave the church, you are regarded as being spiritually defective (no matter how much Mormons pretend otherwise). In recent years, Mormons have been encouraged to APPEAR to be less judgmental (in the hopes of recovering the lost sheep and bringing them back into the fold). But don't think for a minute that you're not actually being judged by active Mormons.

When YOU leave, you're WRONG.

But FINALLY,
If ever,
They're lucky,
Smart. Curious.
Thoughtful. Open.
When THEY Leave,
They're RIGHT.

Ironic?

They think for themselves (which keeps them imprisoned, searchless, stumbling).

LIFE's Great QUEST-
That's what keeps me free, loving, happy and alive.

Love... And TRUTH.

They'll face it when they do. Two faced that is.

I have seen a pattern in church members when dealing with someone who has left the church. They may seem deeply concerned, especially if they know the person who is leaving. But this concern is actually selfish. They see a hole in their universe that needs to be filled. Their goal is to categorize your reasons for leaving in to one of their pre-defined 'wrong reasons' for leaving, so they can safely decide that you have made a mistake (a reason they would never leave for) and then they write the whole thing off. If you were offended or if you wanted to sin, or if you fit in to some other category that they have been told by church leaders is invalid or that they could never see themselves leaving for, then they can then understand what you are doing and their world-view is then safe again. They need to know that your reason is not something that would cause them to leave over. I make sure to never indulge these people. If you go to the core reasons of why you left, it will never be one of these more common reasons that the church leaders talk about. Some more complex and absolutely valid reasons for leaving are the issues I talk about. I make sure that when talking with me, none of what I say falls in to one of those simple categories. If I see a sense of satisfaction or relief on the person's face, I make sure to clarify that it wasn't because of (what I think they have categorized the issue as). My goal is that when that conversation is over, that my reasons for leaving in their mind, falls in to no categories that they have pre-defined as mistakes as reasons for leaving the church. Usually in fact, by the time it's over, their so-called testimony is shaken, because they see on some level that they will accept, a valid reason for a person to leave the church and how this same thing could have happened to them. Never let them categorize you without really understanding your core reasons for leaving. Let them share your pain. Let them see how this same thing could have happened to them and how the church is broken on too many levels to have anything to do with god. Hopefully what you say will help them some day in their own departure, maybe sooner than later.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2019 07:58AM by azsteve.

The culture was always something I tolerated because I believed the doctrine.

I didn't like the typical Mormon practices like worthiness interviews, being chastised (ie reamed) by priesthood leaders for not doing something correctly, getting married early, having huge families etc. Because I wasn't big on these things--especially the last two on the list, I started to feel uncomfortable and it prompted me investigate the doctrine more closely, which eventually led me out.

I doubt many people leave because of culture or doctrinal concerns alone. But either reason is valid. Sometimes the extreme conformity is more than many can bear--whether mental or social.

Doctrine is simply a sub-category of culture.

Mormons believe a word can change everything because they aren't concerned with the substance behind their words. Just put it in a new column and suddenly it is acceptable. This is a useful aid to those desperately wanting to believe that which comes from their One True Church leaders.