So naturally, the question arose in my mind, were they mormons?

I didn't bother to look into it.

Now I have some input on the issue, via Reddit. Here's the comment that brought some information to the fore:

   "While sad about losing a beautiful aircraft,
   knowing it was filled with MLM shitsticks at
   the time comforts me"

I am not one to harbor thoughts like that, especially given that kids were involved, but it wasn't hard to understand some of the 'how' & 'why' that prompted that redditor to come up with that thought.

Does anyone have any info on Kyani? I don't have a list of the victims, but the good mormons on the plane are now working for that big MLM in the sky.

I’m glad it wasn’t filled with a rock and roll band.

I follow the antiMLM sub over on reddit. Kyani appears to be a fairly typical "health and wellness" MLM. Such MLMs distribute products with sketchy claims about their ability to improve one's health. A few similar MLMs have gotten into trouble with the FDA.

From what I gather, the compensation plan is also typical, meaning that the vast majority of distributors will fail. For MLMs in general, if a distributor doesn't get in close to the beginning, the chances of ever earning more than pocket change (if that) are slim at best. Most people in any MLM end up losing money after expenses are taken into account (few of them will accurately track their expenses.)

I remember reading a post on the reddit sub that was from an anesthesiologist. She wrote about how people taking these sketchy health supplements were a huge problem for her in terms of calculating correct drugs and dosages, due to possible interactions. She said that in a number of cases, the ingredients in the supplements *caused* some of the patient's health problems. While Kyani seems to use concentrated nutrients from blueberries, salmon, etc., I notice that one of their products has ginseng, which could cause problems for some. I personally would recommend that you pass any supplements that you are taking by your physician for comment and/or approval.

I personally consider the MLM business model to be predatory in nature.

Kyani's profits have reportedly been flat over the past four years. In a crowded field, it has not been standing out.

and, the MLM people (at least in my past experience) seldom hook-up properly with gov't tax people.

When I listened to an Scamway presentation, the question of 'who pays the freight?' came up, Guess who was the correct answer...

Bingo, another often over-looked 'detail'

I will never forget what happened to a man I knew who got involved in MLM back in the late 70's. He started taking a potion that was supposed to cure everything. He stopped taking his BP meds. Very soon after that, he had a heart attack and died.

Isn't the whole MLM health and wellness scam that Mormons are easy suckers for just an admission from said Mormons that neither their Sacred Olive Oil nor their Word of Wisdom work?

Says so much about those Mormons. I can understand why the Reddit poster has no tears to shed.

No tears indeed esp, "While it's sad about losing a beautiful aircraft"...lol.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

Jim Hansen Sr. bought a petroleum transportation company called Conrad & Bischoff in 1974. Walbom, who is the company’s chief financial officer, said the elder Hansen instilled business-sense into his two sons. As a teenager, Kirk helped the family business by making long-distance deliveries in commercial trucks, according to a bio on one of their business websites.

Both brothers attended Brigham Young University-Idaho. They joined their father’s company and expanded it to include gas stations across four Western states. Three of their sons who were in the crash also worked for the business.

-I think this sums up speculation that they were LDS. I know non members could attend "Ricks College", but why? Just a mediocre of a school and non-members would pay higher tuition to attend.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Survivors-from-South-Dakota-plane-crash-in-stable-14875464.php

So this sad story won't become one of those faith promoting "And the pilot heeded the warning from the still small voice to abort take-off during perilous weather.

Instead, it will be that god needed them for an important assignment on the other side of the veil.

In reality, it should be about a stupid pilot for thinking he could fly safely when 99% of other thinking pilots would have not tried to fly during unsafe weather conditions.

I guess their mormon underwear didn't protect them.

Thought was hubris plus weather but

K9V9 301835Z AUTO 02006KT 1/2SM SN OVC005 01/01 A2930

Decodes Chamberlain Municipal Airport, Nov 30 12:35 p.m. local, automatic weather, wind 020 at 6 knots, visibility one-half statute mile in snow, overcast 500 feet, temperature 01 dewpoint 01 centigrade, altimeter 2930

So weather wasn't really that bad. Ice contaminating flight surfaces should not have been a factor - especially flying an anti-ice turboprop. If pilot was not thoroughly comfortable flying in this stuff could have gotten spatially disoriented on entering the goo but this is a head scratcher

Dr.No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thought was hubris plus weather but
>
> K9V9 301835Z AUTO 02006KT 1/2SM SN OVC005 01/01
> A2930
>
> Decodes Chamberlain Municipal Airport, Nov 30
> 12:35 p.m. local, automatic weather, wind 020 at 6
> knots, visibility one-half statute mile in snow,
> overcast 500 feet, temperature 01 dewpoint 01
> centigrade, altimeter 2930
>
> So weather wasn't really that bad. Ice
> contaminating flight surfaces should not have been
> a factor - especially flying an anti-ice
> turboprop. If pilot was not thoroughly comfortable
> flying in this stuff could have gotten spatially
> disoriented on entering the goo but this is a head
> scratcher

This was pure hubris on the part of the pilot. The PC-12, which I used to fly, is certified to carry a maximum of 11 people, one pilot plus 10 passengers, or two pilots and nine passengers in a high density configuration. Most private and executive PC-12 are configured for six passengers and two pilots. Going from Pilatus' information, 12 occupants, plus standard bags, and fuel for a roughly three hour flight plus standard IFR reserves would have put the aircraft several hundreds of pounds over maximum certified takeoff weight. It was also reported that the town just south of Chamberlain had reported 8 inches of snowfall immediately prior to this aircraft departing. We do not know what, if any, pre-takeoff deicing was applied to the aircraft. The PC-12 deicing equipment only works in flight and will not remove snow and ice accumulation on tops of the wings, tail, and fuselage. The PC-12 utilizes de-ice "boots", which are pneumatically operated inflatable rubber bladders on the leading edge of the wings and tails. In flight, ice will accumulate on the leading edges. The technique is to allow the ice to accumulate and then periodically inflate the "boots" which breaks away the ice the has accumulated. On the PC-12, it works on a cycle. In any case, if there was any ice or snow accumulation on the aircraft before it took off, the aircraft would have weighed even significantly more. Combine an overweight aircraft with the loss of lift from a potentially contaminated wing, and you have a recipe for disaster.

In the professional pilot community it is widely recognized that the most dangerous people in the sky are rich people flying their own airplanes.

Here is a link to a video which shows the operation of the boots on a PC-12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbElryR9h3c

alsd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

Yep. And then there's the PC-12 that iced up over New Jersey and went in

reconstructed drama
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0JkLR_xgayM


so the ice protection has limits

A little humility helps in the card game of playing for keeps

New Jersey was a TBM, also has boots -- not a PC-12

One extra passenger...

And at least eight large guns. Likely with some leftover ammunition.

And at least 40 pheasant.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/11/pilatus-pc-1247e-n56kj-accident.html

Surprising that none of the news stories mention that it is the duty of the pilot to ensure that the aircraft is not overloaded, that the aircraft is not covered with snow or ice, and that the weather is suitable for flying in... I would think someone would have picked this up...

RG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2019 05:01PM by reinventinggrace.

" the most dangerous people in the sky are rich people flying their own airplanes" ...

This is why the Beechcraft Bonanza is known as "the doctor killer".

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " the most dangerous people in the sky are rich
> people flying their own airplanes" ...
>
> This is why the Beechcraft Bonanza is known as
> "the doctor killer".

Yep, particularly the V-tail Bonanza.

Of course that airplane was also responsible for "The Day The Music Died".

Weather appears to have been a main factor in the crash, Brule County emergency manager Katheryn Benton said. She said planes were unable to land in Chamberlain at the time of the crash.

https://news.yahoo.com/prominent-idaho-executives-kids-among-115017156.html

Weather didn't help.

There are two GPS approaches to Chamberlain, but both require a solid one-mile visibility:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1912/09033R31.PDF
https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1912/09033R13.PDF

Weather at 1/2 mile would have been below visibility minimums for landing so illegal; incoming flights would have been forced divert. And it's tough picking a small runway out from the surrounding terrain when everything is covered in snow like that.

1/2 mile vis okay takeoff single or twin engine - but that's bare minimums for takeoff.

This airplane has a really long nose - as soon as raise it, what's in front of you disappears. With everything covered in white there is no visual reference - everything is white - the acceleration of the airplane makes you FEEL like the nose is rising so, unless you're glued to the flight instruments, the reflex is to lower the nose and "level off" - but in such a case case "level off" is into the earth.

Only takes a second.

So are you telling us that Jesus is not a certified co-pilot?

:-D

- he was busy walkin' on water

You'd think God would be capable of multitasking.

How about preaching that nothing happens without his approval? That's how much he loved us!

If only we could see the big picture!

Like every other Mormon who died, Heavenly Father needed them more in the spirit world. Isn't that the big picture? All their MLM experience is very useful in His missionary program cuz even in spirit prison nobody is taking the bait.

Alternatively

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/12/02/us/south-dakota-plane-crash-instrument-flight-rules-plan/index.html

None of the propeller blade tips are twisted, bent, or curled back - cconsistent with prop not under torque/engine not producing power at impact

puzzle

It's tragic to see that members of 4 generations of one family died in the accident.

Obviously this is a big story in the SE Idaho news.

What I thought was interesting is that one guy had been the home teacher of one of the other guys who was inactive at the time. His attention reactivated the drifting member. (See the paragraphs from the Idaho Falls Post Register about this below.)

So, take whatever message you want about why that was in the paper.


https://www.postregister.com/news/local/idaho-falls-remembers-plane-crash-victims/article_cc8b031c-32c7-51e1-906e-9f839c4c7db0.html


"Christensen got to know Jim Hansen Jr. about 10 years ago. Christensen had been active in the LDS church for most of his life but had briefly drifted away from it, and Hansen Jr. was Christensen’s LDS home teacher, frequently visiting to talk to him."

“Jim was really a key person in getting me active again in the church,” Christensen said."

Mormonism will make an infomercial out of anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2019 08:58PM by kathleen.

In tragedies such as this how is it changed in any way whether they were Mormon or not, who they knew, or what they did to make a living? The end result is that a lot of people are hurting at the loss of loved ones. Surely we can have sufficient humanity to feel for hurting survivors.

I think that random people on the internet can have a variety of feelings about it. Yes, it is a terrible tragedy for the families. But these men were also (to my mind,) modern day grifters who had no problem selling dreams to people of modest means for a steep price. I'm sure that they told themselves lovely stories of how they were building prosperity for their MLM downline, while in the darkest part of their hearts, their attitude was, "Sucks to be you."

IMO they were cut out of the same cloth as Joseph Smith. To them, other people outside of their immediate circle were just things to be used.

Sounds to me like you are suggesting they deserved to die.

Not at all.

I support you in your expressed sentiments.

But...

Hitler died on his wedding day and a goodly segment of the population ...


Personal context?

kentish asked:

"...how is it changed in any way whether they were Mormon or not..."

We have a circumstance where a group of people walked right into an avoidable tragedy.
* They had an airplane overloaded with one extra person, about 8 rifles, a lot of ammunition, and presumably a lot of food and luggage for a couple days out in the elements. They were pushing the safety loading of the plane already, it would appear.
* They had a nonprofessional pilot, who would be less adept at dealing with difficult situations once up in the air than a more experienced, trained, professional pilot.
* They left after a snowstorm which closed the freeway, and their airport did not have de-icing facilities (which means that the plane might not be flyable even without the added load and inexperienced pilot)
* They flew into low clouds, so immediately after takeoff they would be unable to use the ground as a reference if they needed to keep their bearings. Or identify a smooth place to make an emergency landing.
* Standard protocol when flying is: the pilot is trained in terms of knowing how much weight an airplane can carry, whether the airplane's conditions are safe for takeoff, and whether the weather is safe for flying in once airborne.

The Mormon Church teaches its adherents a number of precepts which can be harmful. Many of them revolve around a theme of "you shouldn't think for yourself, but instead you should do what someone tells you is "right" or what you feel is "right".

This is manifest throughout the mental conditioning of the adherents. Adults are kept in a child-like state. People fall prey to MLM schemes because they are taught to listen to authority. People are taught that if they abide by rules XYZ that no harm will come to them, even in dangerous situations, because God is watching out for them specially.

This tragedy should be a wake-up call to those stuck inside they Mormon faith mindset. That is why it is of interest to me, and worth my time to discuss. Rather than to remain silent and mourn with the survivors.

The so called "pilot" failed to perform the duties of a pilot. And as a result, he lost his own life, killed 8 members of his family and injured 3 others.

Why would someone be SO STUPID that they would do this? The airplane was clearly overloaded. An extra kid and a bunch of rifles? The airplane almost certainly had a bunch of snow and ice on it, since it had just snowed, and there was no way of getting ice off. And once in the air, there was no recourse to find a safe emergency landing point (like a road).

Three really big lapses in judgement.

Being an adherent to the Mormon faith most likely contributed to this person acting like an idiot. He certainly believed that either he was infallible, or that God had communicated to him that the airplane would be able to take off and fly safely.

Having events like this out in the open, and discussed critically, can help end the cycle of brainwashing and conditioning.

kentish -- am I missing something here? Should I just be quiet? Am I overemphasizing things that probably weren't contributing factors? Just curious.

RG

"* They had a nonprofessional pilot, who would be less adept at dealing with difficult situations once up in the air than a more experienced, trained, professional pilot."

I'm betting that a professional pilot wouldn't have even thought about attempting that flight.
Anyone get the tail/registration #'s of the plane? There's another PC-12 that belongs to the NuSkin group in Utah.

I'm stunned that they even thought of flying with that many people, in bad weather, without a professional pilot. I *assumed* that they had a professional pilot.

A professional pilot would've looked at weights and balances and not flown. Looked at the weather and not flown. This was caused by a private pilot with an ego and a sense of entitlement. It's one thing to make those decisions for yourself, but not when you're responsible for lives of others.

Analyzing why the plane crashed and how it might have been avoided are one thing. With nine people dead and the huge impact that reality has on people who loved and cared for them has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they were Mormon, who they knew or what they did for a living, and certainly nothing to do the other other expressions of heartless cynicism expressed here.

kentish --

They're DEAD because they were BRAINWASHED MORMONS!

"...the huge impact that reality has on people who loved and cared for them has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they were Mormon..."

It absolutely has something to do with whether they were Mormons.

The teachings of the Mormon faith makes people make bad decisions.

If you spend any time among the Mormon faithful, you hear tons of stories about "it was a snowy night, and nobody else was out. But we prayed, and we felt that we needed to be at XYZ location, and that everything would be okay. And the snow came down, the wind blew, we saw other cars in the ditch, but we were blessed and we arrived okay."

It's one of the primary tenants of the Mormon faith that God can give you a pass on making smart decisions if you are "righteous".

Did you, as a practicing member of the COJCOLDS, ever pray with your traveling companions before going out on some road you shouldn't traveled on? If not, maybe you don't understand the connection from a experiential level. But, do consider it from a cognitive level.

Can you agree with: Brainwashing => poor decisionmaking.
Brainwashing => poor post-evaluation of poor decisions.
Undoing brainwashing requires open consideration of other peoples' experiences, good or bad, and considering whether or not they were brainwashed.

It's part of the recovery process. Reclaiming your brain.

Best,
RG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2019 05:50PM by reinventinggrace.

Then call me a heartless cynic. If Kim Jong-un's plane went down, I would cheer. I am not cheering here. I acknowledge that this is a genuine tragedy for the families and their friends and loved ones.

However there are plenty of ethical, honest business people. I don't put the two founders of Kyani in this category. The first idea, stated above, does not exclude the second idea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2019 06:59PM by summer.

Using Mormon logic, Gawd doesn’t want you scamming people with a MLM. Just saying.

Will the attorneys Who handle this case get a large Christmas bonus?

Nice connection!

One thread washes the other!

Hopefully the plane has a corporate owner, so as to add to the number of defendants, and so the pilot’s heirs have someone to sue!

Well done.

How much do we owe you?