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Posted by: dufreyne ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 09:20PM

I am somewhat hesitant to share, but after recently re-reading this letter, I thought it might be helpful. It highlights the rationale for my decisions. This is a letter I sent to my mother shortly after I officially exited the LDS church. I hope someone finds it helpful.

December 17, 2013

Dear Mom:

I received your letter dated 12/9/13. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on religion, life and family. I want you to know that I read the letter in its entirety—twice—to make sure I understood the intent of your letter. You broached a few topics that we had left off the table for quite some time. You bringing them up require of me a thoughtful response. This letter is my attempt to do just that. I was initially hesitant to respond at all due to the likelihood of my words sounding harsh and my concern for your well-being. We have, however, always had an honest and open line of communication in the past. And I believe it is critical to our relationship that you understand my perspective on this important topic of theology. In this context, I will plow forward.

Your letter pointed out specific doctrinal disagreements that the LDS church has with the Catholic Faith. Specifically, you focused on these 5 concepts: the Trinity, Peter as the rock upon which Jesus will build his church, the concept of ongoing revelation, the LDS concept of the plan of salvation, and the concept of patriarchal duty.

First, let me say that we overtly disagree on the first 4 concepts. By definition, if you hold to one faith, you will likely reject another faith if it disagrees with a specific position that is central to your faith. I find it somewhat pointless to focus on specific doctrinal differences—there are many, many of these disagreements and they are always open to interpretation and manipulation by all parties. Rather, I suggest we focus on the big picture—and then break it down into key pieces. With respect to the 5th concept that you focused on, namely patriarchal duty, I will tell you that this concept weighed heavily upon me when deciding to leave the Mormon church. In fact, as I contemplated my children being reared within the indoctrination of LDS theology, it was the single biggest motivation to exit Mormonism and sever my ties with this theology and culture.

Mom, you need to understand that what you have been taught about Mormonism and those who are post-mormon, is entirely fabricated as an extensive scheme in order to scare members into staying in the fold. Unlike what you have been repeatedly taught, the majority of individuals who resign from the Mormon Church are upstanding citizens who are leading productive and ethical lives. In fact, it is due to this strong inclination to act in an ethical fashion that, by and large, people exit Mormonism. It is not, what the LDS church indoctrinates—these individuals are not lying in a gutter, strung out on booze and heroin—or in jail. Over the last 20 years, the Internet has provided a venue for questioning members to discuss their concerns in an open and transparent fashion without the fear of retribution. This has led to dozens of online communities for those questioning the historicity or doctrine of the LDS church. This, in turn, has led to a large exodus of members from the church. In fact, the official Church Historian, Marlin K. Jensen declared in 2011 at Utah State University that members are leaving in “droves”. He went on to say that “maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having right now.” This is not some anti-Mormon declaring this in order to rile people up—it is the official church historian, Marlin K. Jensen, finally admitting what has been patently obvious to those who are witnessing this trend first hand. So the question is why?

If you don’t question what the big 15 say, then you will assume it is because “these are the last days” and “this was predicted”. Truth is, they have been saying these are the “last days” for…a very long time. The other truth is that people are leaving for a reason. The reasons vary, but they are legitimate and are finally being addressed (to some degree) by the church. I cannot speak for others, but I will detail, for you, my reasons. The following are only some of the reasons why I believe that the LDS church is both overtly false and is a negative influence on society.

Considering the Source

I think you would be in agreement that Joseph Smith’s claims were fantastic. That is, he was claiming that (1) He actually saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, (2) He said that he saw various angels including Moroni, (3) He had a set of golden plates which supposedly contained the record of ancient inhabitants of the Americas and he translated them via the gift of God, (4) He supposedly translated ancient parchment into the ‘Book of Abraham’ from a previously un-translatable (prior to the advent of the Rosetta Stone)‘reformed Egyptian’, (5) He claimed that he was the prophet to restore Christ’s church and be the leader of said church, (6) He took dozens of women as wives as part of a so-called ‘revelation’ from God, and (7) He claimed that the temple ordinances were given to him via direct revelation from God. These are obviously fantastic claims. In fact, it would be hard to dispute that they are the most fantastic of any claim in the history of mankind. But how do we, for ourselves, confirm or dispute someone who makes a fantastic claim? For example, if someone came up to you and told you that they had just seen God and that had just translated a new book from God, how would you respond?

Well, first, you would probably look to the history of the individual. For example, has this person always been an honest person? If you knew him and he had always been honest, then you might consider the merits of the claim. Is there any proof that the claim is actually true beyond a subjective declaration from the individual? In other words, is there anything to support this fantastic claim? Third, you would look to the individual’s ongoing decisions and actions—are they the kinds of decisions and actions that an honest and trustworthy person would do or are they more aligned with someone who has a selfish motive?

Let’s look at what is known of Joseph Smith. On March 20, 1826, Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud for ‘being a disorderly person’ and an ‘imposter.’ (http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/js1826.htm). This conviction occurred between the date that he said he had his first vision (1820) and the publishing of the Book of Mormon and establishment of the LDS church (1830). LDS historians have looked at the available historical evidence and do not dispute this.

Second, Joseph Smith gave a total of 9 different accounts of the so-called first vision. The differences between the accounts are, unlike what the LDS church teaches, no small matter. For example, when he first wrote the first account, he only included one deity. You would think that if you actually saw and spoke to the Creator of the Universe, that you would remember a small detail such as whether Jesus Christ was with Him.

How about the Kinderhook plates? This is where a group of non-believers were looking to fool Joseph Smith into translating “plates” that they had created and had engraved fake ‘ancient lettering’ onto them. Smith did ‘translate’ them and reported that they were ancient records. Here is the quote from the LDS church’s own History of the Church: “I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.
I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth. “ (History of the Church, 5:372–79)

What else do we know about Joseph Smith? Well, he married over 30 women. Some of these marriages were to young women (Helen Mar Kimball). Also, many of the women were already married to other men (who Joseph Smith had sent away on a mission). This is called polyandry and is despicable.

We also know that he exhibited significant narcissistic tendencies. For example, he boasted that he was greater than Jesus Christ in his ‘King Follet Sermon”. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409). He states: “I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
Or how about his decision to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor. At the time, he was the self-appointed Mayor of Nauvoo as well as the Lieutenant General of the Nauvoo Legion. Despite these official roles that he apparently carried, he commanded his legion to destroy private property and, at the same time, he set out to destroy the First Amendment with respect to both Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press. And why did he do this? Simply put, he was embarrassed by the transparent truths that had been printed the prior week about his covert polygamous and polyandrous marriages. Something he had previously denied on multiple occasions.
So, the list of dishonorable behaviors that Joseph Smith engaged in goes on and on. This is the background information that is important to consider when one is trying to decide if someone’s fantastic claims have merit. It is precisely these behaviors that call into question the veracity of overtly fantastic claims such as seeing God, translating ancient, golden plates and organizing a church under the direction of God.

Book of Mormon

The available evidence shows no support for the veracity of the Book of Mormon. Simply put, there is no evidence for any of the features of the supposed ancient work. The book itself is conveniently unavailable for inspection. The book has hundreds of plagiarized verses (including plagiarized verses which were copied from a 17th century King James bible and contain the same errors that were contained in that edition). There are no archaeological items that confirm the existence of the people spoken about in the book. There is no linguistic similarities between so-called “reformed Egyptian” or Semitic languages and the Native American languages. But, most importantly, there is concreted evidence that Native Americans originate from Asia through the Bering Strait via DNA testing of Native Americans. DNA technology has proven, definitively, that the Native Americans are not from the Middle East, but rather they originated from Asia. This is the proverbial nail in the coffin for Joseph Smith’s book of Mormon claims.

Pearl of Great Price

Although the Rosetta Stone was unknown to Joseph Smith at the time when he claimed to translate a common Funerary Text known as the Book of Abraham, we now have it widely distributed and professors of Egyptology have weighed in on Joseph’s Smith’s supposed translation and report that the characters and writing bear no resemblance to what Smith translated. They report that it is a common funerary text. Mormon Apologists have tried desperately to squirm out of this one, but it a pointless exercise. In fact, many believe that the LDS church will abandon the canonical claims attached to the BOA in the near future.

Kirtland Anti-Banking Society

Have you ever actually looked into this? This is one of the largest scams that has ever been perpetrated on a large group of people. In essence, Smith was mad that the state of Ohio would not support his plan to create a bank and therefore he created his own “Anti-Bank” and capitalized it with fake money. You can still buy the fake money on EBay. He capitalized the bank with almost all the yearly revenue of the state of Ohio. After the scheme fell apart, Smith had many lawsuits and spent much of his time outside of Kirtland to avoid interacting with those who he victimized.

And the list goes on and on…

Other unethical decisions and behaviors that I do not condone include: (1 ) the Mountain Meadows Massacre, (2) Brigham Young and his racist view as well as his racist indoctrination of subsequent church leaders. Mom, you said that the “prophet will never lead the church astray”. Really? How about leading the entire church astray for over 100 years with it’s racist policies that were put in place by Brigham Young and stayed in place until 1978? (3) Temple ordinances: they are simply a re-hash of masonic rituals. And, contrary to LDS doctrine, masons did not get their rituals from Solomon’s temple. They were not introduced to Masonic Lodges until the 17th and 18th centuries. This contradicts what the LDS church teaches. In addition, the numerous changes to the temple ritual highlight the changing nature of LDS doctrine. The changes that are made are the ones, which are embarrassing such as making an oath to kill oneself and pantomime the act of suicide. These were changed in 1990 due to a written poll taken by the LDS church of it’s active members, not due to a decree from God. And the list goes on and on…

Some Personal Reflections

I am the only member of my immediate family who was raised LDS during my entire formative years. You will recall that I completed Seminary and was President of the seminary class my senior year. I read voraciously in order to understand many of the inconsistencies that I encountered (and were never coherently explained). As you know, I completed a 2-year mission despite the challenges that I faced (In fact, I served a total of 25 months, 3 days). I took out my endowments and attended Temple Services at multiple temples throughout the west including Los Angeles, SLC, Provo, Portland, etc. I attended Brigham Young University and studied religion with full professors at this institution. I only bring this up to remind you that I was “all in”. I was Mormon through and through-both in culture and in theology. I defended it with both words and, I’m embarrassed to say, with multiple physical fights that I got into when people mocked the church. I wish to point out that my experience is not that atypical. The majority of the post-Mormon friends that I have made have similar backgrounds where they were very strong members of the LDS church prior to discovering the truth behind the historicity of the LDS claims.

Now let’s consider the decision to leave the LDS fold. Unlike what you have been taught, leaving the LDS church, if you are a lifelong member, is both the hard road and the ethical road. I knew I would encounter Mormon bigotry and shunning—both of these Mormon traits have been perpetrated upon me over and over. I knew that I would lose life-long friends and professional status—both of which occurred. I knew that neighbors would no longer speak to me and that they would even shun my children—this still happens. And, most disturbing, I knew that it would negatively impact my relationship with my immediate and extended family. This, unfortunately, has certainly been the case. Most members of my family (with the exception of both Colleen and Maureen) are afraid to talk to me about my decision and, in a superficial manner, skip over it as if it never occurred. This strange response is not entirely unexpected. The LDS church indoctrinates it’s members to shun apostates. If you doubt this, simply listen closely next time you have your temple interview. Question #7 asks: Do you support affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I suppose we do affiliate, so that makes you unworthy. This line of questioning combined with the rhetoric delivered over the podium casts a very negative light on those who leave. After all, according to LDS doctrine, those who “knew the truth and chose to leave are going to outer darkness”. This cult like indoctrination is what drives good people to do bad things—such as informal shunning.
However, I have thought long and hard on this topic. I am reminded of Nietzsche’s quote: “ The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”

Back to your letter

Mom, although you made a number of doctrinal points in your letter, they can be argued both ways. I have clearly described some of the reasoning why I believe Mormonism to be a fabricated, 19th century, American religion—started by a narcissistic yet charismatic leader—a common source for many cult like organizations. I do not believe any of the claims that are unique to Mormonism. That is not to say that all of Mormonism is bad. In fact, many of the general teachings are both ethical and Christian. However, the evidence does simply not support the claims that are uniquely Mormon. And, like many religions, it has a history riddled with missteps and unethical behavior. For this reason, I could not now or ever in the future associate myself with such a religion. And, more importantly, while fulfilling my role as patriarch of my family, I will not subject my children to cult-like indoctrination, which will lead them to consistently believe that they are ‘not enough’. (if you doubt this look at Utah’s teen suicide statistics or the per capita anti-depressant use among Mormon housewives—highest in the nation).
So, does it make sense to discuss doctrinal discrepancies between the Catholic faith and the Mormon Church? I propose that it is not worth your time or mine to discuss doctrinal differences when I believe the LDS church to be an overt fraud perpetrated upon good people. And you believe Catholicism to be a once true, but now fallen religion.

Conclusion

Mom, I love you. I hope you find peace with my decision to both permanently sever my ties with the LDS church and raise my family outside the LDS church. I know this can be a difficult thing to contemplate from the LDS perspective, but I would suggest you step back and look at the big picture. I am married to a lovely woman and have been in this relationship for 19 years. I have 4 wonderful children. I am blessed to be able to work at a vocation, which allows me to serve the citizens of a beautiful community in which I reside. I belong to a church community, which has been overwhelmingly welcoming to my family and me. And…I get to show my support by talking to you and Dad on a frequent basis. We should be happy that we share this type of relationship despite our doctrinal differences. Truth is, we don’t know how much more time we have on this earth. Why waste it squabbling over doctrinal differences? Let us celebrate what we have in common and our shared human experience. Let us enjoy the experiences we both have independent of or in addition to religion. I hope you can be happy knowing that I am happy—even if it includes a religion that you did not find satisfying for your life and your path. Although I don’t agree with your decision to abandon Catholicism, I understand it. I know you don’t agree with my path, but after reading this letter, I hope you have a better understanding of why I chose the path I am traveling.

I sincerely hope that both you and Dad remain at peace with how your lives turned out. You have both led ethical and moral lives and I admire how you both have worked through adversity to achieve success and keep our family afloat. It is only now, as a father, that I understand what some of those challenging times may have been like. However, after my multiple near death experiences, which highlighted my mortality, I am more convinced than ever that it is critically important to honestly live one’s life—despite what others may think or say. My decision to sever my ties to Mormonism, as painful as it has been, was the single best decision of my life. I cannot remember a time when I have felt better or freer than I did after I sent in my letter to the church office building. I can honestly say that I am living the life I chose and I am traveling the path that I profess to travel. This, if nothing else, should give you some degree of comfort—knowing that I am blazing the trail that I honestly yearn to travel.
And, I suspect, Nani is smiling down from heaven 


With much love,


Lee

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Posted by: Beachgal ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 04:06AM

Thanks so much for sharing.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 07:46AM


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Posted by: dufreyne ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 09:20PM

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

A little more back-story: my mother was raised Catholic(1st generation Italian) and converted after she had 6 kids (I'm the 6th). My father was catholic as well(1st generation Irish). She converted when I was 6 or 7. She did it for all the right reasons--she wanted her boys (4 of them) to become upstanding citizens (at the time, they were using drugs and into trouble). Truth is, mormonism had a positive influence on my brothers and helped them turn the corner. For me, as the youngest however, I didn't need this type of scenario and found the framework stifling.

For this current conversation, we did set some ground rules at the beginning:

1. no personal attacks
2. stick to reasons for decisions
3. recognize that a difference in theological belief doesn't mean that either of us doesn't love the other.

It was hard to argue that these 3 weren't the right principles of engagement. They helped ground both of us for the ensuing discussions.

That's not to say that she didn't use the usual LDS reasoning, but it did set the stage for a rational discussion of doctrinal points and, in the end, she ultimately communicated that she understood my reasoning. Something I still find amazing...

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Posted by: dufreyne ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 09:27PM

Hi messygoop. your approach is probably the right one. in most family scenarios, if you find a stable plateau, then ride it. having said that, imo, its never ok to accept the usual mormon approach to thinking that their theology trumps all else. If they choose to preach their doctrine (beyond a simple meal prayer) at family gatherings, then I would insist on a forum to share something you find meaningful--it can be religious or not-but something that is uplifting but not uniquely mormon, by definition. By doing this, over the years, I have attempted to teach family members that good and ethical actions are not uniquely LDS. In fact, being freed from LDS restraints has given me the opportunity to accomplish meaningful, ethical acts, beyond my prior possibility.

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Posted by: dufreyne ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 09:31PM

A little more back-story: my mother was raised Catholic(1st generation Italian) and converted after she had 6 kids (I'm the 6th). My father was catholic as well(1st generation Irish). She converted when I was 6 or 7. She did it for all the right reasons--she wanted her boys (4 of them) to become upstanding citizens (at the time, they were using drugs and into trouble). Truth is, mormonism had a positive influence on my brothers and helped them turn the corner. For me, as the youngest however, I didn't need this type of scenario and found the framework stifling.

For this current conversation, we did set some ground rules at the beginning:

1. no personal attacks
2. stick to reasons for decisions
3. recognize that a difference in theological belief doesn't mean that either of us doesn't love the other.

It was hard to argue that these 3 weren't the right principles of engagement. They helped ground both of us for the ensuing discussions.

That's not to say that she didn't use the usual LDS reasoning, but it did set the stage for a rational discussion of doctrinal points and, in the end, she ultimately communicated that she understood my reasoning. Something I still find amazing...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dufreyne ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 09:32PM

A little more back-story: my mother was raised Catholic(1st generation Italian) and converted after she had 6 kids (I'm the 6th). My father was catholic as well(1st generation Irish). She converted when I was 6 or 7. She did it for all the right reasons--she wanted her boys (4 of them) to become upstanding citizens (at the time, they were using drugs and into trouble). Truth is, mormonism had a positive influence on my brothers and helped them turn the corner. For me, as the youngest however, I didn't need this type of scenario and found the framework stifling.

For this current conversation, we did set some ground rules at the beginning:

1. no personal attacks
2. stick to reasons for decisions
3. recognize that a difference in theological belief doesn't mean that either of us doesn't love the other.

It was hard to argue that these 3 weren't the right principles of engagement. They helped ground both of us for the ensuing discussions.

That's not to say that she didn't use the usual LDS reasoning, but it did set the stage for a rational discussion of doctrinal points and, in the end, she ultimately communicated that she understood my reasoning. Something I still find amazing...

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 10:00AM

May I ask how your relationships are going with your family?

I know that if I were to write a detailed, well organized essay that my TBM Mom would skip or gloss over it. Anything that speaks contrary to the church is false.

I have a sad, but stable relationship with my Mom. I have agreed to not tear down her mormon faith/church and she has agreed not to to rescue me. I really wish that I could get her out, but she will never let go.

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Posted by: dufreyne ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 09:32PM

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> May I ask how your relationships are going with
> your family?
>
> I know that if I were to write a detailed, well
> organized essay that my TBM Mom would skip or
> gloss over it. Anything that speaks contrary to
> the church is false.
>
> I have a sad, but stable relationship with my Mom.
> I have agreed to not tear down her mormon
> faith/church and she has agreed not to to rescue
> me. I really wish that I could get her out, but
> she will never let go.


A little more back-story: my mother was raised Catholic(1st generation Italian) and converted after she had 6 kids (I'm the 6th). My father was catholic as well(1st generation Irish). She converted when I was 6 or 7. She did it for all the right reasons--she wanted her boys (4 of them) to become upstanding citizens (at the time, they were using drugs and into trouble). Truth is, mormonism had a positive influence on my brothers and helped them turn the corner. For me, as the youngest however, I didn't need this type of scenario and found the framework stifling.

For this current conversation, we did set some ground rules at the beginning:

1. no personal attacks
2. stick to reasons for decisions
3. recognize that a difference in theological belief doesn't mean that either of us doesn't love the other.

It was hard to argue that these 3 weren't the right principles of engagement. They helped ground both of us for the ensuing discussions.

That's not to say that she didn't use the usual LDS reasoning, but it did set the stage for a rational discussion of doctrinal points and, in the end, she ultimately communicated that she understood my reasoning. Something I still find amazing...

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 11:36AM

Oh if I but had the courage to follow your example!

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Posted by: oldpobot ( )
Date: December 06, 2019 01:29AM

Well done Lee.

In the cold hard light of day, it would seem fairly hard to be a thinker in the Mormon faith.

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