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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 09, 2019 07:11PM

I thought it was an interesting article. 34 years married, 6 kids later, and just now facing his inner feelings to full embrace of accepting himself as gay and leaving the mormon church (good move). I guess it's harry men in speedos and a trip to the Caribbean to celebrate.

Ed Smart, 64, publicly revealed in August that he is gay and would be divorcing his wife Lois and leaving the Mormon Church

Jesus, prayer, the spirit and picking those life partners really blew up in the wife's face. I guess you can never really be sure these days.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7772255/Elizabeth-Smarts-father-reveals-prayed-not-gay-amid-collapse-34-year-marriage.html

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 03:02AM

I'm not sure where he's going with this identity issue at 62? Is this a scheme to make money off a book? Does he have a boyfriend he's in love with? To me it looks like he has a lot to lose for a cause that has nothing to offer him. He's had a privileged life in Federal Heights and certainly benefited off his connection to mormon pioneer royalty of SL.

This guy confuses me.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 03:17AM

I know nothing about him personally other than the bits which have appeared here on RfM and in the news media over the years, but the answer could be as simple as:

For the first time in his life, he can now be the "him" he knows himself to be.

Authenticity is a wonderful gift...and one that so many people never have the opportunity to experience, in any chronological segment of their lives.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 12:12PM

I have some very conservative Mormon friends who know and respect Smart. This is puzzling to them, but they like him so much that they are refraining from judgment--which is unusual.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 12:11PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This guy confuses me.

Gay and bisexual men probably confuse the heck out of you.

I identify as bisexual. Losing it all to explore a place in yourself you were taught was evil probably makes no sense to you because you never have to hide your sexuality.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 10:33AM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure where he's going with this identity
> issue at 62? Is this a scheme to make money off a
> book? Does he have a boyfriend he's in love with?
> To me it looks like he has a lot to lose for a
> cause that has nothing to offer him. He's had a
> privileged life in Federal Heights and certainly
> benefited off his connection to mormon pioneer
> royalty of SL.
>
> This guy confuses me.

His coming out does not confuse me. He's been born and raised in a conservative, religious community and comes from a generation which judged and demonized those who are gay. Equality before the law and acceptance of homosexuality by society has barely just began. He was stuck in a cult and a closed minded society for most of his life. He finally feels comfortable coming out and living the life he should have been able to live but couldn't because of our bigoted past. Better late than never.

And why does there have to be some ulterior motive? Just like leaving the LDS church, people have to come up with some kind of ulterior motive other than accepting ones motives at face value.

"Hmmm, he quit the church right after he graduated college. Maybe he thinks he doesn't need god anymore."

"Interesting, I saw so and so buying wine. He probably left the church so he could sin."

"So and so says he doesn't believe anymore because of the history. I think he was just trying to find a reason to leave because he has struggled paying tithing and needs to justify it."

"Must have been offended..."

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Posted by: Lost in the changing room. ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 10:04AM

Just wait for the rest of the story. Just wait for the other shoe to drop with regards to this individual.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 12:00PM

What are you implying?

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 12:41PM

We knew he was gay when he first appeared on TV years ago--my ex, my kids, my whole family and I. I didn't think he'd ever come out. Having LIVED this, having been the wife, I can say without any question whatsoever that it is not A CHOICE. Even my dad told me (who was bigoted) after he figured out my husband is gay that THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY. He kept telling me I was too INTELLIGENT to marry someone gay and then I finally told him why I married him.

I came here still angry at all gays because of what I'd been through and then I realized WHOSE FAULT IT WAS THAT ANYONE GAY WOULD GET MARRIED--the leaders of the lds church are the ones in our situation.

I accept my husband as 100% gay. I knew he could never "change" as they expected back when I was first involved. They told me he had to change or be damned. I have a "gay" journal about the experiences as I had to hide it and I wrote in there many times that I KNEW he couldn't change any more than I can change to lesbian.

I know many married gay men. I worked closely with one when I was going through my boyfriend being gay and then my marriage. We were good friends, but we never talked about him being gay, but he was reporting to the bishop, he had hurt his wife deeply, my husband ran into him at the most popular gay meetup spot in Cache Valley. He was miserable. My husband's gay friends from Rexburg--one thinks nothing of cheating every damn day and still believes in mormonism and has even been in bishoprics, etc., and still cheating daily. His other friend who is still married wants a divorce, but his wife said THERE WILL BE NO DIVORCE. She is the one who controls the relationship. He cheats, but not as often as the other guy. They have no relationship whatsoever, just spend time in the same house together and put on a show outside the home.

I applaud Ed Smart for coming out. I hope that Lois finds the group I am in in fb. She will probably still believe in mormonism maybe forever, but most likely only for a while like most of them do. Most ex-wives leave. Not all.

Having been one of those who thought gays were evil, perverted, etc., who came to this point in my life--I get weary of the blind people out there. How can you say anything if you haven't been where I have? Even my TBM daughter, after watching Bohemian Rhapsody said "Being gay is a lot more complex than anyone understands."

My husband and I are best friends. I wish that I could fix what society, the lds church and his own parents did to him so he could have a long-term relationship. I wish I could fix for my kids what happened in their childhood. I blame the lds leaders. I wish my husband had waited until my kids were in their 20s to leave like Ed Smart did. I gave him permission to cheat as long as he kept coming home. He left.

THIS IS a lot more complex than anyone understands UNTIL they've been there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2019 12:43PM by cl2.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 12:57PM

> We knew he was gay when he first appeared on TV
> years ago--my ex, my kids, my whole family and I.
> I didn't think he'd ever come out.

That was my impression as well. Some of those guys are so far into the church that they don't realize what is happening while others understand it but are so committed to family and religion that they refuse to change course.

I have a dear friend who converted to Mormonism in his teens, a decision his parents tolerated--or even supported--until he said he wanted to attend BYU. His father then stepped in and said absolutely not, so the kid went elsewhere. They never discussed the reasons behind the father's obduracy, but in hindsight my friend acknowledges that Dad knew his son was gay long before he himself did.

By his late twenties my friend was out and active. Besides having a deep and abiding love for his sagacious parents, he takes familial responsibilities very seriously. (He's been effectively married for decades.) He surprised me years ago by saying quite forcefully that once a person marries and has children, his personal needs must come second until the children reach majority. Then the closeted person can make the changes he needs to be true to himself.

Obviously the question is complex and everyone has to make the decisions about timing, etc., for him or herself. But I can see Ed Smart having chosen the course of action my friend advocates. In short, he waited till his children were established adults and then came out.

I'm pretty sure there is no one-size-fits-all solution. As cl2, gemini and others can attest, being married to a gay man is difficult on many levels. Mormon-induced marriages are a disaster. But how to disentangle the lives of spouses and children is extraordinarily complex and has to be managed family by family.

I just hope that Ed, Lois, and their kids are comfortable with the trajectory they are now on. It is hard to imagine a more difficult set of challenges for evidently good people to negotiate.

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Posted by: oldpobot ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 10:02PM

Interested as to what made you folks think this guy was gay? I don't know him at all.

I guess there are some common 'gaydar' clues, but was there anything specific?

Of course, you can't 100% reliably tell a person's sexuality from their appearance or manner.

One wonders whether wives of closeted men know, or guess, and just pretend otherwise. (Sorry - not trying to trigger you personally Cl2!)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 10:18PM

That's a good question. I have long thought that the ideal Mormon man--clean cut, not give to cursing or direct confrontation, conservatively dressed--is pretty close to one "type" of gay person. I believe there was a period in the 1970s or 1980s when missionaries in NYC were told to grow their hair a bit longer to avoid confusion on that score although that may be apocryphal.

In any case, when Smart started appearing on TV during his daughter's tragedy I wondered if he might not be gay. I didn't tell anyone because 1) I wasn't sure, 2) it didn't matter, and 3) it was none of my business. But yes, his demeanor and dress raised the question in my mind.

The only possible sense in which my guess is relevant is the intimation that one cannot always tell. I think there are lots of women in and out of the church who unwittingly marry gay men (I've also seen men unknowingly marry lesbian women) and many gay people who do not recognize, or come to terms with, their sexuality until after marriage.

It's the stuff of tragedy and more reason that to tell kids that there is nothing wrong with what they are feeling and who they are.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 02:43PM

I just knew something was off because of his friend, Dennis, who he spent so much time with. I already explained that.

You know enough gays, then you tend to pick out traits, BUT my ex is a tough one. Most people have no clue. You can look at my fb page at the wedding pictures from last January. He is obviously the bride's father in family pictures. I'm the one usually holding a stuffed bear. yep, that's me. Colleen Christensen Parkinson on fb.

My ex couldn't decorate if his life depended on it. He can't dress. I dress him and now my daughter dresses him. Some boyfriends did. He wore K-mart bluelight special shoes when I met him (as did several other guys in the singles ward--they all had the same tennis shoes). I took him out and had him buy new clothes. He had old denim shirts his prior girlfriend had embroidered for him. His clothes were so old. He had a nice suit, though. (Still has it.) He can fix any car. Drives me nuts how long we have cars. We sometimes look like a used car lot. He put our metal roof on, he laid our floor--vinyl and my old age is showing--can't think of the word. He lays carpet in our house. He fixes toilets and the floors under them and re tiles the shower, etc. People still will say, "I think it is just a phase with him." People say he is over 59 now, so he will lose his sexual drive. Oh sure. He's 62 now.

Anyway--my sister and her daughter have gaydar, too. I can't pick them all out, but I do pretty good. We don't say now when we see someone (like the dental assistant at our old dentist's office) that "I think he might be gay, but he's married"--we think, "Oh no, NOT ANOTHER ONE." We see them all the time here in Utah. Lots of young couples and it is so obvious the guy is gay. Someone on a local news station is most likely gay, but he is married. Was just watching him last night. My ex says for sure he is gay.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 02:53PM

Why would you want to stay married to your gay husband even after saying it is ok to fool around just come home to me? Complex relationship.

Good move for gay husband to move on and keep paycheck.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 04:08PM

Phazer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good move for gay husband to move on and keep
> paycheck.

I do not understand this sentence.

I know Utah is not a community property state, but I have always assumed that Utah (as is true with all common law states, to my knowledge) have "equitable property" and "alimony" statutes, to economically protect both partners as they go forward in their new, now separate lives.

[My statements about state law in common law states may not be entirely accurate since I was born, raised, and have lived my entire life under the community property protections of my own state. To me, "community property" is real life, while "common law" is abstract legal theory I've had no practical reason to deal with.]

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 05:57PM

I'd chalk it up to ignorance in both senses of the word - lack of knowledge, and "fer rude".

If money is the issue, the cheapest course of action all around is to stay married. Life is almost never that simple.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 09:18AM

His biggest reason for wanting to get married was so he could have children. He used to cry to me about it before we got married. It was a long and horrible road that I, myself, traveled in trying to decide to marry him. He'd decide to get married and I'd go through another period of trying to decide if I could marry him or not and I just couldn't tell him no. I care about him and always will. Then he'd say he wasn't getting married. Then he'd put me through it again. It was when I met another guy and he was afraid I was going to marry the other guy that he decided to get married. Then I went to the leaders out of fears of what the future would hold for MY CHILDREN--I had already been talking to them since finding out he was gay 18 months before he decided to get married. They all told me not to worry--he wouldn't leave me. Then they blamed me when he did. (He continued to play the I'm coming home game and then tell me he wasn't after he left us for years.)

I have cards he sent me talking about the children he wanted to have. I told my best friend at the time that if I married him and gave him children and he turned his back on us, that I had done everything I could for him and I could be at peace with the whole situation. I had 2 people to talk to besides my husband and the leaders. They told me not to tell anyone. One of those friends was a bishop himself. It was ON ME to save him. I didn't really realize that until years later when i was able to look back and see how I was treated even by my friend, the bishop. I was really good friends with this man, who I have started talking to again just recently as he works at the BC temple and my disabled brother goes there and my old friend talks to my disabled brother and is good to him. I am very happy to be talking to this old friend. I feel like it is how it should be.

BUT the plan was for him to live downstairs and me upstairs as we are now. We finished the basement. We were going to put in a door down there until he up and left after the basement was almost finished. He could have his relationships and I could have mine if I so chose. It was not a marriage--it was parenting our children. I knew that I, myself, was incapable of doing it alone. He left me and the kids without any financial support and I was only working part-time at the time. It was a hell that I wouldn't wish on anyone and my children suffered as their dad had nearly NOTHING to do with them. If I needed money for their lunches even, he would scream and yell at me as would his partner. They said I could never get any money from him and I believed them. I was so broken by how they treated me. Come to find out I could get several hundred thousand dollars and I could have had spousal support and child support and I didn't get any. I can still divorce him today and take that money. We have a deal and if he breaks it, I divorce him and take the money.

In the end, I married him to survive. I had to get out from under the leaders of the lds church. I needed time to figure this out myself. What with marriage, having twins, quitting my well paying long time job, it took me a long time.

He should have stayed. Guess when he moved back? When my old boyfriend came back into my life. He pays all the bills now. That is our deal. I do take care of feeding our son who lives here and taking care of him basically with what he needs.

My husband should have stayed and lived downstairs. He knows it now, too. He grieves what he lost with his children. When our last dog died, as he left for work after we got home, he started to sob uncontrollably and he told me, "I can't believe I did that to you guys. I'm so so sorry."

UNTIL YOU ARE IN THIS SITUATION, you have NO IDEA what type of advice you should give us. I'm been in therapy for over 20 years because of this situation. I blame 100% the lds leaders for this situation, for Ed Smart's situation. It will take time for Lois to find her own answers. I realized this morning that the last thing she wants to hear is "this isn't a choice, there is no hope for your marriage." I read parts of "The Other Side of the Closet" when he was talking about leaving and I couldn't handle it. It takes A LOT of time to realize that there is "no hope" for my marriage. I could never have believed that the outcome could be this good--FOR ME, but what about my children? They both have paid a huge price and will for the rest of their lives.

Actually, one of the first things I told my future husband a week or 2 after he told me he was gay, I told him I couldn't marry him until I was sure he would stay because I wouldn't do that to our children. I had fallen into a very dark place and was suicidal daily for over 18 months (but the bishop said I had PMS) and I wouldn't see him for a few weeks. I went home and stayed as I couldn't be alone at all. Then I went and told him I couldn't do that to my children, but I did. I did it to MY CHILDREN and I consider them MINE. I'm sorry, but I just do. They are Christensens--not his name or part of his family. They are MINE.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 09:20AM by cl2.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 07:46PM

C12, I really hope you never feel that you have to justify your life choices to anyone here. No one who hasn't been in the situation in which you found yourself has any clue as to how he or she would deal with being in the same situation.

My mind is totally blown by the bishop who diagnosed as PMS your suicidal feelings in reaction to the blow that hit you. I'm still processing that one. The church is big on "discernment," but situations such as the one you described are litigation just waiting to be filed. I don't understand why the church does not emphasize more strongly the responsibility bishops and others in high leadership positions have to avoid making diagnoses they're unqualified to make.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 07:47PM by scmd1.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 08:43PM

> C12, I really hope you never feel that you have to
> justify your life choices to anyone here. No one
> who hasn't been in the situation in which you
> found yourself has any clue as to how he or she
> would deal with being in the same situation.

I couldn't agree more. There are no easy solutions to problems like this and everyone must find her own way forward. That effort is inevitably going to be messy and I don't know how anyone could second-guess how Cl2 or gemini or anyone else manages such complex issues.

The only generally applicable lessons seem to me prospective: accepting that non-cis sexuality is entirely normal, accepting it as such, and getting the LDS and other churches out of the normative "counseling" business. It's too late for most of us to avoid the pitfalls of Mormonism but perhaps we can save some others.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 02:51PM

I'm no angel by far. I'm going through a tough time right now, so it makes it even more important to hear this.

I told my therapist yesterday, "Okay, I've had enough now." The first question I was going to ask him was "what is the easiest way to end it?" He knew I wouldn't mean it and he didn't when I finally got to it, and I wouldn't have made it without my therapist. No way in hell could I have made it here without him.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 02:59PM

because he is gay is ridiculous. Brian David Mitchell--he was attracted to him. Hell, give him credit for having taste.

MANY PARENTS have put their children at risk. My son was sexually molested and he even says that NOBODY was more protective of a mother than I was. My sister and I were molested (and I never told my parents), my brother was molested by a male. He thought he must be gay if a male would molest him. He isn't.

My mother was so protective of her kids. Hell, we knew exactly what to do if a car pulled close to us if we ever had to walk home from school. I've never seen a mother who worried as much as my mother did and she couldn't protect us. It was neighbor kids who molested my sister and I--both different neighbors--they were older than us. I was 5 when it happened.

Him being gay had nothing at all to do with Elizabeth being kidnapped. What a horrible thing to say about the whole situation!!!

This was supposed to be down below.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2019 02:59PM by cl2.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: December 14, 2019 02:22PM

Love you, cl2. Very, very much.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 04:23AM

She is one of the strongest people I have ever known.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 10:23PM

There are few better than our Cl2. :)

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Posted by: AnonInCali ( )
Date: December 13, 2019 07:45AM

Both Ed and Lois were "older" when they married. He was 31 - can you say, "menace to society?" She was 29 with an master's degree and a career in education. I can't help but wonder what was behind it all.

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Posted by: AnonInCali ( )
Date: December 13, 2019 07:49AM

Ooops - posted on wrong spot initially - sorry about that.

I've always found it interesting that both Ed and Lois were "older" when they married. He was 31 - can you say, "menace to society?" She was 29 with an master's degree and a career in education. I can't help but wonder what was behind it all.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 03:04PM

I typed for the bishop and he told me I was the one he couldn't figure out--why I wasn't married. He said he'd sit on the stand and look around and I was that one who he felt should have been married. He let me know many times that he thought I was very attractive and I was. My husband liked to show me off to his friends. Well, my life has done a number on me--but anyway.

I knew other guys in the singles ward who married LATE--really LATE and they aren't gay. Two of them were in their late 40s, early 50s. And they were good looking guys with good jobs. There is more than one way for mormonism to mess you up.

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Posted by: loislane ( )
Date: December 15, 2019 09:17AM

I remember reading a book Lois and Ed wrote together.

In it, Lois said she thought she would never marry because she wanted a "spiritual relationship," and thought she would never find a man that met her criteria.

I am not sure what she meant by "spiritual," but it is a safe bet that she did not want a man whose only interested in her was sexual.

Ed Smart fit the bill. He was trying hard to be a good Mormon, and do everything the church asked of him (including finding an appropriate wife). It is a safe bet that he wasn't all over her physically during the courthship phase. In many ways they were well matched.

And in many ways they DID have a successful marriage. I don't know why Ed Smart decided to come out of the closet at this time of his life. I wish the two of them could maintain the parts of their relationship that still work, much like Carol Lynn Pearson did with her husband.

I have seen the online interviews. The man is agonizingly sincere, honest, and willing to share his most personal thoughts, feelings and experiences with anyone who tunes in.

Ed Smart's children are supportive. I think one day Lois too will be supportive.

And since this family, due to Elizabeth's kidnapping, is living out their issues for all the world to see, then we will all stay tuned.

I think it is going to be okay and even more than okay. If this nice Mormon family can face the truth about being gay, then maybe they will set a good example for the rest of the world.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 15, 2019 01:24PM

I like this post very much. I mentioned above how at least one ideal "type" of Mormon man resembles an in-the-closet gay man. I put it awkwardly (perhaps that is inevitable when trying to make such a sensitive point), but here LL says what I was attempting to say.


> Lois said she thought she would never marry
> because she wanted a "spiritual relationship," and
> thought she would never find a man that met her
> criteria.
>
> I am not sure what she meant by "spiritual," but
> it is a safe bet that she did not want a man whose
> only interested in her was sexual.
>
> Ed Smart fit the bill. He was trying hard to be a
> good Mormon, and do everything the church asked of
> him (including finding an appropriate wife). It
> is a safe bet that he wasn't all over her
> physically during the courthship phase. In many
> ways they were well matched.
>
> And in many ways they DID have a successful
> marriage.

I can easily see a good Mormon woman who felt uncomfortable about sex and wanted a primarily "spiritual" relationship searching for a man like Ed. And didn't he in some ways resemble her--uncomfortable with (for him, unnatural) sex, striving for spirituality, looking for a woman who was not unduly "carnal?" By their standards, it was indeed a successful marriage.

In short, I'd bet there are many Mormon marriages like this. The church sets people up for this situation.

Thanks, LL.

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Posted by: loislane ( )
Date: December 15, 2019 04:11PM

My pleasure. It is always nice to be appreciated.

I take a strong interest in this case. I once spent a whole hour holed up in a windowless room with Brian Mitchell's first wife, or at least the one he was married to before he married Wanda Barzee, which he did an hour after his divorce was finalized.

It was one of the strangest hours of my life.

It occurred to me that the LDS church betrayed both Ed Smart and David Mitchell.

Ed Smart, because he was trying so hard to be a good Mormon, and the LDS church said he was bad just by having the feelings that he had and which he couldn't not have.

Brian Mitchell was also trying hard to be a good Mormon as he understood fundamentalist Mormonism ought to be. The LDS mythology fed into his madness, with him thinking that HE, Brian Mitchell was TOM&S and therefore could do pretty much anything he wanted and it would be okay.

I think Brian Mitchell was well versed in Mormon History, especially the life of Porter Rockwell, who kidnapped one of his wives as she was sleeping next to her (then) husband. Maybe she and Porter had cooked up the whole thing in advance. Afterwards, she always though of herself as Porter's wife, and was proud of it, even though Porter wasn't around that much because he was off running errands for BY

Brian Mitchell and Porter Rockwell had something else in common.

They both played Satan in the temple ceremony.

Brian Mitchell read as many books on Satanism as he could find, so he could do a good job with his acting. He went to the temple a lot back in the day.

Wanda Barzee was the first woman to play the organ at the tabernacle.

She was a VERY good organist.

Brian Mitchell thought that ALL of his 49 (eventual) wives should be musically inclined.

I don't know why I keep track of these things, but I do.

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Posted by: oldpobot ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 09:03PM

Makes good sense. But is it true that she was 31, apparently going into a fairly sexless marriage, and then had 6 children?!

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 06:20PM

Several posters, especially when Ed first came out as gay, wondered how he could do this terrible thing to his wife. It wasn't entirely clear to me what "this" was. Was it getting divorced? Was it coming out as gay?

What was he supposed to do, exactly. This is a total no-win situation. People here are pushed into an almost identical situation when they come to the realization that they don't believe in Mormonism. Do they leave and live an authentic life, or stay and fake it, because their families would be crushed to know they didn't believe? There are variations on that theme that we see here all the time. There are no good, which is to say pain-free options.

Most, but by no means all here have chosen to leave Mormonism. Ed Smart has chosen to end his marriage. I actually have seen nothing that indicates that Lois either agrees or disagrees that that is the best course of action. Again, there is no pain-free answer.

Frank Bruni is a conservative, practicing Catholic, leaning toward pro-life columnist at the NYTimes. He has a rare genetic condition which suddenly blinded him in one eye a few years ago, and there is a 50-50 chance he might suddenly lose the sight in the other eye. This is a very big deal when you read and write for a living. He also adopted a dog about the same time, and is engaged in a number of experimental treatments for his condition, since it is quite rare and very little is known about it. He writes regularly about his dog and his medical condition.

Right after the recent shooting in El Paso, he wrote about hate, and some of the hate mail he receives. He quotes a couple emails that are very anti-gay (he is gay), and they come from people who almost certainly have college degrees, live in NYC, and of course are NYTimes readers. He and I both found it hard to believe that that level of bigotry would exist in that particular demographic, but he gets it on a regular basis.

I'll quote part of his column, but before I do that, I'll tie his column to Ed Smart. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that Ed Smart, since he came out as gay, has received more than a few letters and emails declaring in no uncertain terms that his daughter was kidnapped and raped because he was gay and is an evil person.

You have to know he has heard that. I can hardly conceive of anything more pointlessly and pointedly cruel. I think that was what Frank Bruni was dealing with after the El Paso shootings. Why are people cruel just to be cruel? What is up with that? Bruni sounded discouraged.

From his column:

Some of the country’s most knowledgeable physicians can’t tell me with any certitude why I ended up losing sight in my right eye and am in danger of going blind, but one of my column’s readers figured it out. It’s because I’m gay.

“You have openly discussed your homosexuality,” he emailed me two weeks ago, and, perhaps to his credit, he attached his name, which enabled me to determine that he’s not a fundamentalist preacher from a deep-red state but an engineer living in the New York City suburbs. “That is why God could not help you. You were living in flagrant violation of his Law.”

That email was especially mean but otherwise routine. Just a week earlier, a woman who teaches at a college in Manhattan wrote: “Is it really true that you are a homosexual? I hope not. Columns written by homosexuals inevitably have their own homosexual agenda and viewpoints and cannot be read with the belief that they are impartial. I do hope that the rumors about you are not true.”

Rumors? They’re facts, though she has obviously encountered them in corners of the internet where being gay is regarded as a prompt for secrecy and a source of shame. There are many such corners, and they have plenty of denizens.

In movies, songs and greeting cards, I’m always hearing or seeing that love is forever and that it conquers all. Well, hate may be even more durable, and it has the muscle to fight love to a draw.

My inbox is proof of that; the evidence stretches back decades. And I’m talking in this case not about irate and sometimes foul-mouthed readers who dislike my opinions. All columnists encounter that, and given the privilege of our megaphones, we should. I’m talking about readers who detest the very fact of me, who I am, independent of any person or issue I lift up or tear down.

They’re strangers. They’ve never met me, never taken the measure of my generosity, kindness, loyalty or lack thereof. For them I exist in a category, as a type. That type is all they see, and that type is contemptible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2019 06:21PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 06:45PM

Fer truth.

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Posted by: glassrose ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 06:55PM

^ This. SO MUCH THIS.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: December 14, 2019 09:58AM

Mormonism is not the only religion that dislikes gays; so does Christianity (check out Paul's comments in 1 Romans), Islam, and almost any other religion I can think of. Maybe Mormons were the only ones to try to "cure" homosexuality through electroshock therapy, but I haven't confirmed that, either.

The fact that Mr. Bruni has received hate mail from engineers living in the New York City area is a reminder that even if we are employed in scientific and other intellectual fields, it doesn't mean that we have escaped our prejudices against other people for who or what they are; we just compartmentalize it and hold it until a time when we can write an answer to a (partially) blind newspaper columnist annonomously (or not).

And even having money does not break the prejudices that hold us. Money just ensures that we can force (or try to force) governments to bow to our prejudicial wishes against other people.

If I had a magic wand, I'd cleanse all human beings of their religious mindsets and start afresh with the idea that we are all equal, regardless of our abilities, disabilities,, skin color, or sexual orientation. Unfortunately, such a wand will never exist.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 09:11PM


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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: December 10, 2019 06:41PM

(Sarcasm!)


well OBVIOUSLY, it was his wife's fault for not giving him what he (otherwise a Manly Man) wanted/needed, aka 'PUTTING OUT'.


/Sarcasm

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 08:37AM

Here are MY thoughts on this. I emphasize the word -MY- to minimize the shaming that will probably come.

I asked my wife this. I asked if she would fell cheated or defrauded after our 20+ yrs of marriage and our 2 grown kids if I came out as gay today. She thought about it and said in general, she would feel cheated, BUT she said that after our years together, that she would KNOW that I was gay.

Being gay isn't bad, though it still is if you're mormon. Better late than never for some people I guess, as society will accept you more as gay, though your spiritual family still won't.

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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 11:37AM

nonmo_1 you said your wife would know if you were gay after all those years of marriage. I would humbly like to ask her how she would know....

I was a naive young thing when I got married. We had made out a little but the most that ever happened was a little touching of the breast over my clothing. Even that caused me a lot of guilt! I felt like he was just so very righteous that I was lucky to get such a great guy. Even after we got engaged in college, we both agreed that maybe we could and should postpone getting married so he could serve a mission.

Our early years of marriage were nice, imo. I got pregnant within months and by our 3rd anniversary, we had two children. I didn't take the pill as it was frowned upon by the church leaders at that time, so I worried about getting pregnant ALL.THE.TIME. As time went on we had fewer and fewer bedroom encounters. Did I think it was because of his sexual orientation? That thought NEVER entered my mind. It was because I'd gained weight. Or he was in a high stress post-doctoral program as well as being the bishop of our ward.

No, I never thought any of his actions were because he was gay. It was only after our return from a "second honeymoon" trip to Hawaii that things began to go downhill fast. We'd been married
22 years at that point when he finally came out to me.

Every couple's experience is theirs alone. All are devastating to the spouse (usually the wife, but not always).

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 12:56AM

before we married as then I wouldn't have had to deal with all that bull that happened, but then after talking to the wildflowers, I changed my mind. I knew why the bedroom encounters became less and less. Although we had more sex than most mixed orientation marriages, but being a mormon girl, we did discuss this with the wildflowers years ago that we just thought they were great men who weren't driven by sex and that is exactly what I thought at first.

Driven by sex. Not many as driven by sex as my "husband." He was messed up by the lds church, by society, and by his parents (yes, his parents, in terms of he doesn't know how to have ANY relationship).

No--YOU WOULD NOT KNOW YOUR HUSBAND IS GAY. I had 2 kids by 1 year and 3 months into the marriage.

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Posted by: Kirklando ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 09:19AM

Did he jump or was he pushed? Nothing would surprise me. Many politicians "discover" their sexuality after being blackmailed. Celebrities do it when they have a book, movie or album to sell. People are sometimes cynical in their actions. This guy lived a lie for over three decades.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 09:37AM

by society, by the lds church and other religions, by their families.

I have a cousin who is gay, though I'm not supposed to know it. My aunt, who wrote the e-mail to me after my daughter's temple wedding last January and I posted part of that e-mail here, is the mother of this man. He just was divorced by his second wife. When he got remarried, I was talking to my older sister about this and she said, "You can't be gay in that family." No, you can't. Their grandson came out as non-believing just before his father left as a mission president and he and his wife refused to attend any of the meetings or going away parties for their parents. He came out as non-believing JUST BEFORE THEY LEFT. Believe me, he is probably getting badgered constantly by family members (it is a large family) and his grandfather is the worst of the worst when it comes to mormon priesthood power hungry men. He ordered me back to church when I had hardly seen him at all in 19 years. Who does he think he is anyway? He is not relation of mine and I never liked him before anyway.

It is easy to say that back in 1983 when I found out my husband is gay (boyfriend at the time) that we'd all know what to do. Not much talked about back then. It wasn't out in the open then. Very seldom did anyone in Utah talk about it. They told me NOT to tell my parents or anyone at all in fact. I was to only talk to them (when they were actually available). What the hell was I to do???? He was going to hell if I didn't "save him." I got to talk about sex with old men, gay sex, straight sex, getting a guy turned on, checking his masturbation habits. The good mormon men I worked with at Thiokol felt bad that I had been exposed to what went on at Thiokol because they knew how naive and sheltered I was--or shall we say, I was very careful as I KNEW I couldn't talk to men about sex. I have also realized in the last 5 to 10 years that I was sexually molested when I was 5 and younger by neighbor kids. (You bet there are repressed memories.) In junior high, there was a group of girls who would go around pulling your slip down. We had to wear dresses every day back then. I lived in fear of it happening to me. My older sister and I were talking about it one day in our 40s and I said something about I'm glad it didn't happen to me and she said, "But it did. You don't remember?" Now I remember WHERE in the school it happened--just a blur. You bet I was molested and I couldn't deal with it. I know where and who.

And then they put me in THIS SITUATION.

I had NO ONE to talk to. And, in reality, all I needed to do was TELL MY PARENTS and the answers would have been there for me. When Carol Lynn Pearson wrote "Good-Bye, I Love You," I finally realized that I wasn't alone.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 11:29AM

One thing--where is Warrior--Adam?

BUT also, yes, Ed has probably been told that the reason Elizabeth was abducted is because of him. I'm blamed for many things. People just watch and wait for things to go wrong with us. They are confused as to why our lives have come to the point they have considering where we have been. I'm still blamed for him not being saved. Most people still think it is my fault.

I flaunt my life to the neighbors, etc. I don't hide.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 12:26PM

Why can’t the First Presidency see the writing on the wall? Don’t they know that science denial is stupid? They made millions of people “their bitch” so don’t they have some responsibility to do sufficient research to avoid teaching them complete garbage?

Oops, my bad. When made men speak, the thinking is done.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 11, 2019 01:08PM

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They made millions of people “their
> bitch” so don’t they have some responsibility
> to do sufficient research to avoid teaching them
> complete garbage?

You deny anything in this world for money.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 13, 2019 11:54PM


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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 02:06AM

I was thinking the same thing. Gay needs to be cured ?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 06:45PM


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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: December 14, 2019 04:24PM

Okay, but what's REALLY fascinating is the why behind the why this sexuality thing is such a universally and continuing hot-button topic. People get fired for espousing the wrong position, or using the wrong pronoun.

(Debates as to being hot-button or not? See - it passes here for news - Q.E.D.)

So, distancing enough from the topic to become curious -- why does it undeniably and continually pull such heated emotion?

Don't you find it rather curious?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 14, 2019 05:01PM

The question is how did hostility to non-cis peoples become such a deeply entrenched element in some societies. There are others in which there is much greater tolerance, so it is not a universal phenomenon.

The problem isn't the assertion of one's individuality so much as the reaction to it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 05:01PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 15, 2019 09:59PM

My personal opinion is that the anti-LGBTQIA+ and anti-abortion issues are linked in the minds of evangelicals for many complex reasons but they didn't become super hot button topics until after the second world war with the advent of modern feminism and civil rights. If people feel threatened, then people who don't reproduce or challenge the social order are a threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: December 14, 2019 07:14PM

Edward put his daughter at the risk which yielded her trust in Brian and Wanda resulting in her abduction and torture.

THAT is where his focus and advocacy should be. To prevent other fathers like he was/is from throwing their defenseless children to the world of predators.

He taught his family, and brought his family to Mormon authority to be taught, EVERYTHING Brian stood for and said he was.

Ed's sexual expression is the least of it. Take ownership for failing as a father on the most serious and tragic fronts.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 14, 2019 07:27PM

Is there anything in this story or in Smart's history that suggests he has not taken responsibility for his enormous mistake regarding Elizabeth?

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Posted by: dumbmormons ( )
Date: December 15, 2019 01:09PM

He milked as much publicity and money from the kidnapping of his daugher - so what will he do after this one gets stale? Claim to be the long lost love child of Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun?

The guy is not a good person.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 15, 2019 04:30PM

His wife hired MItchell and Mitchell was not allowed in the house. He worked in the yard and fixed the roof. It was a bad decision,but all of us have made bad decisions. I doubt anyone of us has never let someone in their house that they didn't know well.I don't run background checks on every worker who comes in my house. I will say that I don't take people.off the streets and give them a job, but I have trusted people I probably shouldn't have. I have been lucky and the Smart case opened my eyes. It think accusing him of being a bad parent because of one mistake is unfair. In most ways, he appears to be a good father.

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Posted by: Former victim ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 02:33AM

^^ What Carameldreams wrote^^

Sorry, but I have to agree that Mr. Smart is not a good person. He and his wife never really owned up to their foolish parenting. I was always waiting for them to warn other parents to be more vigilant and proactive in keeping their children out of harm's way. Nope. No apology to Elizabeth. No campaign for more careful screening of employees. No effort to educate children to report weird behavior, or defend themselves, or report to responsible adults, like teachers and police officers.

Mr. Smart seemed rather feminine, but some men just are. Some gays are very manly. I can't tell the difference, mainly, because another person's sex life is not important to me. That's not what bothered me about the guy. I thought he was shifty, too self-conscious, too eager to put himself forward as the good Mormon, the forgiving person, the be-all and end-all. For example, they never publicized anything about getting Elizabeth professional therapy. Their perfect religion and their perfect parenting was all Elizabeth needed. I feel that Elizabeth will break at some point, down the road, years from now, just like I did. I was locked-up, assaulted, raped, and tortured, and after I escaped, I thought I could carry on with a normal life, without even taking any time off of work. My parents never mentioned what had happened, and were ashamed, because I was no longer a virgin.

Yes, I'm being judgmental. My wimpy TBM parents didn't care enough about me to prosecute or punish my attacker. He got off free, because he was the had Mormon connections, high up. He even had prior accusations. He went on to assault several other women, after me, too.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 02:52AM

I think you are being too judgmental.


--------------
> Sorry, but I have to agree that Mr. Smart is not a
> good person. He and his wife never really owned
> up to their foolish parenting.

You don't know that.


-------------
> I was always
> waiting for them to warn other parents to be more
> vigilant and proactive in keeping their children
> out of harm's way. Nope.

You don't know that.


------------
> No apology to
> Elizabeth.

You don't know that.


------------
> No campaign for more careful screening
> of employees. No effort to educate children to
> report weird behavior, or defend themselves, or
> report to responsible adults, like teachers and
> police officers.

You don't know that.


-----------------
> For example, they
> never publicized anything about getting Elizabeth
> professional therapy.

They had no obligation to say anything publicly and probably thought that Elizabeth's recovery was a private matter. It would in fact have been abusive for them to publicize her struggles and therapy.


----------------
> their perfect parenting was all Elizabeth needed.
> I feel that Elizabeth will break at some point,
> down the road, years from now, just like I did.

I don't think she will. She's had loving parents, tons of therapy, and appears to be thriving. There is a danger in reading one's own experiences into others' lives. She is not you, her parents are not yours.


------------------
> I
> was locked-up, assaulted, raped, and tortured, and
> after I escaped, I thought I could carry on with a
> normal life, without even taking any time off of
> work. My parents never mentioned what had
> happened, and were ashamed, because I was no
> longer a virgin. . . My wimpy TBM parents
> didn't care enough about me to prosecute or punish
> my attacker. He got off free, because he was the
> had Mormon connections, high up. He even had prior
> accusations. He went on to assault several other
> women, after me, too.

I accept this, think it horrible (and entirely believable), and hope that you are doing well now. But your story is demonstrably different from Elizabeth's and it isn't right to presume that she is on the same track that you tread.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 02:56AM

My only question pertains to the timing of his coming out. I am nearly his age, and couldn't imagine making such a major course correction at this stage of my life. But perhaps, as Lot's Wife suggested above, the fact that his rather large family is now grown was a major factor. It could involve retirement issues -- perhaps after a lifetime of hard work, Ed gave some deep thought as to how he wants to spend his retirement years. Working full time has a way of taking your mind off of other issues. And perhaps he felt his marriage had just run its course.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 06:46AM

He said that his wife asked him directly and he told her

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 01:04AM

and have read some things that have been written.

I asked my "husband" before we married, but it had nothing to do with sex of course or making out. We had dated for several months and he hadn't even held my hand, but then I thought that was "special." AS did most of the women I've talked to who are ex's of gays--they just thought their boyfriends were spiritual.

BUT my "husband" had a friend, Dennis, who he would go lift weights with all the time. We couldn't go out anywhere until he checked with Dennis. He preferred to spend all his time with Dennis. I really didn't think he was gay, but I wanted to know if we had a relationship or not and so I went and asked him. March 22, 1983. I'll never forget. Dennis, by the way, is still married. Had 8 kids. He is definitely gay. Their oldest son came out as gay and had a partner for many years, then dumped his partner and married someone in the temple. We don't know how that has worked out at this point.

As for Carol Lynn and her husband making things "work"--they had a lot of problems over the years. She did divorce him and he moved to San Fran. She took him in when he got AIDS. But it was by no means a "perfect" situation. Maybe Lois and Ed can find a happy medium as my husband and I have NOW, but it took YEARS to get here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2019 01:05AM by cl2.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 16, 2019 06:50AM

Elizabeth wrote that her parents offered to find a therapist ,but she didn't feel the need. She seems to have adjusted well and can always seek therapy if she wants it.They respected her wishes

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 17, 2019 12:20AM

Maybe Ed had the hots for Brian David Mitchell, which is why he brought him home?
I've seen waaaaay more perverted shit in perverted MORmONville.
My endodontist, who removed my Wisdom Teeth and was as rich as God had a really creepy guy working for him. His mistress lived in one of his many mansions on his sprawling family compound. His hired hand lived in another house. This hired hand was a heavy equipment operator and lived alone. He was the only one in the ward I grew up in who had time to spend with us boys, who's Fathers were far too self absorbed or interested in T.V. to spend a weekend out camping in the snow and rain every month.
Fortunately my Dad was far to self absorbed with his all consuming hobby to have a spare minute for me or my stupid boy scout shit. So he encouraged me to go but didn't spend a minute on any scout activities. So naturally when I showed up to our first overnight at this creepy Scoutmaster's house, I didn't know but I was creeped out, by all the perverted behavior I was subjected to at 12 years old.
I never went back.
I always wondered about a couple of scouts who were not at the overnight out at Jacks. Turns out they were in Jack's house earning merit badges. Turns out the only way you got to drive a car if you were a little Mormon boy, was to get an Eagle Scout and the only way to get an eagle scout was to perform sexual favors on our scoutmaster, who was a known pedophile.
Most of the cub scouts I went to scouts with up until that night at Jacks, are now very wealthy people, who never have to worry about money again for the rest of their lives.
And from what I know, the deserve every penny.

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