The United States has been the birthplace of Mormons,Jehovahs Witnesses,Seventh Day Adventists,Scientologists etc.

Why is this the case?Why did all these groups not start in Britain,or Germany etc?

I know mormons think the formation of the United States as a nation fulfilled prophecy and the US constitution was divinely inspired to pave the way for what they regard as restoring truth.How different would Mormonism be if it had its birthplace in Britain or France?

Was it because all sorts of new ideas flourished in a new American nation and people felt more freedom to explore new ideas about politics and religion?Britain was a very difficult place for non conformism.

Maybe it was because the old world countries of Britain,or Holland and Sweden had established state religions and the kings and queens of those countries had to conform to the state religion of Anglicanism or the Lutheran or Calvinist church of Holland.Catholicism was the state religion of Spain or Italy and it would have prevented new religions being founded there.

Ervil Lebaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe it was because the old world countries of
> Britain,or Holland and Sweden had established
> state religions and the kings and queens of those
> countries had to conform to the state religion of
> Anglicanism or the Lutheran or Calvinist church of
> Holland.Catholicism was the state religion of
> Spain or Italy and it would have prevented new
> religions being founded there.

I think this is true....and I also think the often odd (by Old World standards) peculiarities of developing American culture created an environment where, at least for the most part, new religions not only COULD (legally, etc.) be created, but where there was actually a kind of general support for this phenomenon.

(Most probably excluding those areas which were already heavily Puritan-influenced, or were predominately Catholic.)

Over just the last century Europe produced Nazism, Fascism, Communist dictatorship, and several other political movements that incorporate many of the characteristics and rituals of religion.

Not all religions are theistic.

Yes. Power comes in many forms.

Allegiance is a valuable currency.

Schisms!

Is schismism a word? My spell check doesn't think so.

Being a follower of that Israelite, Jesus of Nazareth, meant that you had 'schismed' out of Judahism, which itself had already suffered at the hands of schismism!

Monumental though it may have been Martin Luther was just another schismist!

Everything has been schisms all the way back to that first human creature who was able to create the thought, "There's someone bigger than me out there!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 11:43AM by elderolddog.

“We're sick and tired of your ism schism game
Die and go to heaven in Jesus' name, Lord”
- Bob Marley

Reinventing the wheel is the specialty of religion.

Those who took the daunting chance to come to the unknown future facing them were looking for all things new. New government, new foods, new dances, new music and finally new religions invented by those who were looking for a good business opportunity.

So religions added new treads to the tires of their bicycles and painted them other colors and tassels from the grips and baskets on the handle bars to hold more money, but its still the same bicycle. Mormons being who they are put playing cards in the spokes with clothes pins.

I'm guessing there were more religions born in India than in the USA.

I think you are correct.

Yes. I think the OP was implicitly focused more on the developed world over the last century or two than anything else. There were tons of religions born in Europe; as EOD indicates, the birth of new faiths tore Europe apart for centuries.

As for the developing world, those countries continue to produce divisive new religions. Think of various forms of Hinduism, particularly nationalistic Hinduisms; various virulent forms of Islam; Sun Myung Moon and his Moonies; and of course Falun Gong, the controversial Chinese sect that has in recent years mounted a concerted effort to influence politics in the US and other western countries.

Humanity's religious impulse is still alive and well.

The USA isn't the *only* place. Lot's Wife has already mentioned the Moonies in Korea and Falun Gong in China. The Aum Shinri Kyo cult started in Japan. You have the Raelians in France. Theosophists are Russian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_founders_of_religious_traditions#New_religious_movements_(post-1800)

Cherry-picking religious movements that began in the US, and then generalizing from that, is an example of poor analytics.

The Falun Gong are a pretty reasonable group. In the USA they would go unnoticed. But they refuse to kowtow to a dictatorship so are attacked by it.

Right. A Chinese religious movement that is now financing media efforts to change the political balance in the United States.

Foreign entities influencing US politics and elections: what could possibly go wrong?

Instead of "what could go wrong", you should ask "what's new?"

You talk about the Falun Gong as if they are the Chinese form of Scientology. They are a meditation group trying to exist under a government which wants to run every religious movement, so no one speaks up about their inhumanity.

I think, Jordan, that you should reread my post. Because you are not responding to it.

Tell us about Martin Luther.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tell us about Martin Luther.

Luther did not wish to start his own group initially. The big joke is that the Vatican has adopted some of his suggestions centuries after excommunicating him for complaining about simple things like corruption.

Really?

Plymouth Brethren - Ireland
The Family - Australia
Raëlianism - France
Christadelphians - England
Baha'i - Iran
Rajneesh - India
Hare Krishnas - India
Transcendental Meditation - India
Aum Shinrinkyo - Japan
Mungiki, Lord's Army - Kenya
Moonies - Korea
Colonia Dignidad - Chile

Japan, India and Russia are full of these things.

Brazil has TONS of new religious movements: hundreds of evangelical-style churches, African-based movements, Amerindian-based movements etc etc.

Religion in general is a very profitable enterprise, and it thrives all over the world, not only in the U.S.

A Brazilian religion called Spiritism based on the teachings of a 19th century French spiritualist named Allen Kardec was quite popular when I was there.

And it is still popular... As well as a variety of other movements that mix Spiritism with other traditions.

Umbanda, for example, is a Brazilian religion with African, Indigenous, Catholic and Spiritist elements.

More shysters looking to dupe more sheep.

This got me to thinking of the very recent, relatively speaking, so-called religious movements in the US that met with tragic endings. David Koresh and his Branch Davidians in Waco,TX;Jim Jones and his People's Temple; the Heaven's Gate tragedy.

There are definitely forces at work in the US that have not been evident in other economically advanced Western countries for a long time.

I'd even include the resurrection of the charismatic fundamentalist Christian sects, largely a past phenomenon, in the last several decades fits the model of American religious experimentation.

As I understand, several of the American sects arose in Upstate New York. Is that correct? Why would that have been?

Yes.

In the late 18th and early 19th century there was an explosion of new sects in the region. The peoples who settled there were generally fringe Christians, not the conservative sort who lived along the seaboard whence they migrated. The migrants frequently believed in the occult and charismatic practices, also in the need to restore "pure" ancient Christian beliefs that establishment Christianity had de-emphasized.

There were a couple of waves of intense revivalism that swept through the (then) borderlands of New York and New England, and one result was the inception of new faiths that included restorationists, free love/polygamist groups, charismatic speakers in tongues and believers in miracles, etc. Much of that history is lost now but in the context Mormonism was not unique. What differentiated the sect from most of the others was its durability, which owed much to Smith's charisma and then to Brigham Young's organizational skills.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 08:37PM by Lot's Wife.

that must have been an interesting place to live in during the 1830s or whenever it was. A veritable smorgasboard of weird practices and beliefs to sign up for.

So many prophets and seers competing for attention!

The amazing thing is that current day Mormons and JWs etc don't go back and review the historical context of the birth of their religion(s). Perhaps they know that it undermine their comfortable faith if they did



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 09:37PM by oldpobot.

Absolutely.

The beauty of Judaism and Christianity is the paucity of documentation about the milieus from which they arose. There isn't a lot of evidence about the emergence of Judaism ca 600 BCE, so the biblical narrative has become authoritative by default. Archaeologists and historians have over the last few centuries produced a much fuller and more accurate account, but few pay much attention to those facts.

Christianity too benefits from "miraculous conception," as it were. The churches have emphasized a standard view for so long that it has become accepted wisdom. An examination of the mystery cults, the dozens of Christianities that existed before its unification and codification, sheds valuable light on the nascent religion but detracts from the the sense of a pristine revelation. So the religion is fortunate that so much time has passed since its foundation/s.

Mormonism would like to achieve the same status, but the events are too recent and the documentation too readily available. The church may have dominated LDS internal history for a century or two, but modern research and the internet have undermined that monopoly. There are also personal connections: the Smiths had ancestors who participated in the Salem Witch Trials, which occurred not that far away geographically and temporally. So yes, if we view Mormonism in its context of fringe Christianity, the occult, restorationism, and sexual innovation, it is just another garden variety cult.

Here's a list Google led me to, called the 30 Best Churches in South Central Los Angeles:


1. African American Evangelization Center
9505 Haas Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90047

2. Fellowship Missionary Baptist Church
410 E 31st St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

3. New Haven Church Of God In Christ
7426 S Hoover St
Los Angeles, CA 90044

4. Ephesus Seventh Day Adventist
7005 S Western Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90047

5. The Greater Bethel Apostolic Church
8500 S Figueroa St
Los Angeles, CA 90003

6. Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses
1610 W Vernon Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90062

7. Nuevos Horizontes
3933 S Broadway
Los Angeles, CA 90037

8. Sunrise Missionary Baptist Church
3770 Maple Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

9. Iglesia Central Jesus Cristo ES El Camino
668 E 37th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

10. Church Of Christ
915 E Martin Luther King Jr Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90011

11. Young Nak Celebration Church
150 W Jefferson Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90007

12. Jehovah's Witnesses
3310 Wadsworth Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

13. Catholic Church
1046 E 34th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

14. Freedom Missionary Baptist Church
4021 Naomi Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

15. Los Angeles Metropolitan Churches
3320 S Central Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

16. Everlasting True Vine Baptist Church
1123 E 34th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

17. Morning Star Baptist Church
1334 E 41st St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

18. Iglesia De Cristo Camino A La Paz
2636 S Grand Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90007

19. Emmanuel Church Of God In Christ
1399 E 33rd St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

20. Spiritual Fellowship Church
665 E Adams Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90011

21. La Senda Antigua
631 E Adams Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90011

22. Light
1248 E 27th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

23. Institute Of Sacred Music
2419 Griffith Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

24. Asambleas De Dios Ebenezer
856 E 23rd St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

25. Higher Ground Ministries
906 E 23rd St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

26. Western District United Holy Church of America, INC.
1432 E 25th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

27. Church Of Jesus Christ Judah
2300 S Central Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

28. Korean Central United Method
416 E 20th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

29. Mt. Olive Church Of God In Christ
1385 E 21st St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

30. All Peoples Christian
822 E 20th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

25. Higher Ground Ministries
906 E 23rd St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

26. Western District United Holy Church of America, INC.
1432 E 25th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

27. Church Of Jesus Christ Judah
2300 S Central Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90011

28. Korean Central United Method
416 E 20th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

29. Mt. Olive Church Of God In Christ
1385 E 21st St
Los Angeles, CA 90011

30. All Peoples Christian
822 E 20th St
Los Angeles, CA 90011



I witness unto thee that this list just scratches the surface regarding the number of, mostly, store-front churches in what is called South-Central Los Angeles.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I witness unto thee that this list just scratches
> the surface regarding the number of, mostly,
> store-front churches in what is called
> South-Central Los Angeles.

A currently, politically correct, response:

Since, in my memory of this life, I first opened my eyes in a small house on Santa Barbara Avenue (now: Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd.) in South Central, and since I have many very good memories of my life when my Mom and I were living there (my father was serving overseas in the US Navy), it will always be "South Central" to me.

However, in Los Angeles as a whole and in southern California more generally, the post-WWII words "South Central" became, in later years, highly charged due to local, post-WWII, crime stats and racial makeup.

Because of this "less than" identification, our City Council changed the official name of the "neighborhood" (this is a quasi-legal geographical designation within the City of Los Angeles) to, simply, South Los Angeles--which became particularly difficult for me, because I used to work at Parker Center (at that time headquarters of the Los Angeles Police Department), and the words "South Central" (as an official LAPD Division) are an integral part of my anatomical brain.

I still, right now today, "think twice" before I speak the words, because I definitely don't want to offend anyone, but I grew up in South Central for the first few years of my life, and to me those particular years have always been, in my memory, one of the best periods of my life.

Thank you for the memories, EOD.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2019 12:00PM by Tevai.

I spent from 1978 until 2017 rummaging around South Central and environs. I never once had a problem. I'd say I averaged a trip a week into South Central over the years.

1984 to 1986 I visited Parker Center (150 S. Los Angeles St.) at least once a month, where a friend's friend would run 'clets' for me, the ones I couldn't get run at the CHP office there on Vermont and the Hollywood Freeway. Ah, what loose ships they all ran back in the day.

What is a "clet"?

To my knowledge, I've never heard this term before.

I think CLETS is a California database that lists things like protective orders, parole status, etc. If a police officer or investigator wanted to know the legal status of a person, that's where the basic information would reside.

Methodism, Baptist, Quaker, Presbyterianism, Salvation Army, among others, all began in Britain. Your premise is false unless you are talking only about US cult creation.

I think Baptist church started here.

But you can add Shakers to your list.

Nope. London 1612. Thomas Helwys.

I have moved to a new location; I am now a resident of Chagrin Falls, OH, but only in the spirit.

Many of the early European colonists were offshoot religious types fleeing persecution. It's not that the phenomenon is new in America. It's the continuation of an age-old tradition.

I think the U.K., Germany, and later Eastern Europe used the U.S. as a dumping ground for aggressive mental defectives into the early 20th Century.

I've always found it interesting that the US Women's Suffrage Movement began only 34 miles away and 18 years later from where the Mormon Church was founded in Palmyra, NY.

Seneca Falls, July 1848.

The answer is quite simply, money $$$$. Religion is a form of business, and the USA excels at businesses of all kinds.

It is because you don't study much history and have a limited world view.

So many religious movements around the world have not relation to the USA or North America.

Lutherans? Most Protestant groups? Various Catholic groups? Muslims - in all their glory. Far & Middle Eastern groups.

USA is a small piece of the worldwide foolishness.

We have definitely nailed the corporate cult better than most places.

Lutherans are not so much a radical new religious movement,as they do not differ radically from traditional Catholicism or Methodism.Mormon or Scientologists or Jws are radically different.

America was the birthplace because of what was going on with King James in 1600. There were still burnings at the stake for believing the wrong thing. And Yes James had puritans burned. He for the most part didn't like killing Catholics or Puritans or Protestants, So the numbers were way down from Queen Mary's time, She murdered hundreds of Protestants. But the King was partial to Catholicism and Rome because his mother was a Catholic. And so the Kings son was betrothed to a Spanish princess (who's father had fought to take over the country in Elizabeth's time), and it was entirely still unclear if England was going to be protestant or Catholic, So the puritans left England and came to America.

They also came to to America to escape something else that we just don't talk about these days much and was spoken of even less in those days. The certain relationships that were going on at court were extremely offensive to the puritans. James and many of his men at court really really liked each other.

New England was populated by just these people. They had that shining city on a hill. That calvanistic way of thinking for almost 200 years. A really good pedigree, the best stock of England. This is where these new religions came from.

Canada is largely home to traditional aka mainstream religions (Lutherans, Baptists, Catholics and United or Methodist).Canada has very few sects in comparison but parts of Canada are influenced by the U.S.

Many Canadians think people who join sects are extremely gullible and often consider Americans inclined this way.

Point to any community of people in any country and you will find religious movement birthplaces which are like snowflakes in how dazzling, unique and plentiful they are.

There is not one culture that has been studied by anthropologists that has not had their own religion in some shape or form.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2019 05:08AM by presleynfactsrock.

I got a card today from a friend whose wife is of Japanese descent--and Brazilian! We focus on the Euro-North American phenomena, but overlook what's gone on elsewhere in the world. Just as North American migrations were not exclusively western European, South America had huge influxes of non-Hispanic settlers--Asian, as well!

Just think of the cultural and religious elements they brought with them!

Also, people "migrate" into other belief systems (religious and otherwise, tip o'the hat to LW, above) for various reasons: secular, familial, psychological, financial, geographic, political and even spiritual.

Perhaps the only safe generalization is that, by either design, evolution, or happenstance, human beings tend to believe in someBody or someThing abstract and larger than themselves.

I dunno. Ask Harold Bloom.

Not to mention the fact that YOU, Ervil dear, started YOUR church on Mexican soil

However, your younger Brother,Joel, living in Mexico, did come to SLC to get HIS religion started, maebbe because he thought if you you were going to start your own religion, the good old USA was the place to do it.

Why would you think that?