Some churches don't take over people's lives and make demands on them, though. Furthermore, most churches let a person leave just by walking out the door and not returning. There are, of course, other bizarre churches out there besides the COJCOLDS, but a person doesn't have to choose one of the strange and restrictive churches.
I'm not saying that anyone SHOULD find a church affiliation after leaving the Mormons, but comparing a normal church to the COJCOLDS isn't even an apples/oranges comparison. It's more like comparing apples to smelly cat food.
I find it more than a little interesting that people think they can define truth as whatever they want it to be. Truth does not work like that.
When someone uses the phrase, "my truth" what they mean is this is what is convenient for them to believe whether it is truth or not. That which someone hopes to be the truth cuz that is what they want to be the truth, cuz like, that would make it really nice, does not make their wishes or beliefs to be the truth.
I take your point, but to me religion often falls under "meaningful myth." Sometimes a fictional story (or art, or music) can speak to deeper human truths than the bare facts are able to.
I can agree with you except for the fact the religions usually CLAIM the myths are factual (until it is obvious what they taught actually isn't factual and they pretend they never said it was).
We can learn a lot from mythology and literature, but religion adds a self-declared divine authority validation that is very harmful.
If only religion could remove all the faith BS woo stuff, and learn to quickly embrace change and scientific discovery, the community aspect of it might be attractive. Some religions are trying and better than others, but overall, they are regressive swamps of unfounded claims for the credulous who pay to be fleeced.
I can't see checking my brain at the door for social and emotional needs.
> I can't see checking my > brain at the door for > social and emotional needs.
Humans are the only creatures known to pay to receive sexual stimulation knowing that said payment does not include sexual gratification. And that is some weird shit, man!
Most "truth" as it pertains to religion will never be proven or disproven **in this lifetime. A person can maintain that his own belief system [or lack thereof] is true and correct and that anyone whose beliefs differ from his own is following an inherently false system, or a person can accept that what rings true for him doesn't do the same for someone else.
** An obvious exception would be found in the teachings of groups who are insistent that the Messiah is returning on January 3, 2020 or a similarly specific prophecy. Those can eventually be disproven.
After my 'trial religion' (Mormonism), I hooked up with the Mennonites, 'religion light'.
I found a non-judgmental group of people who helped me work with my challenges, they trusted me when I didn't deserve it. I think that's been my greatest growth period, it started in about 2009. I'll be Always grateful to the people of Toledo Mennonite!!
I have gotten a lot of favorable mileage out of my belief that I am both smart and handsome. These are terrible lies, but I know I am in good company when it comes to living a lie.
People have tried to convert me, to make me see the truth about myself, but so far I have successfully resisted.
Living a religious lie is useful to some people. Decrying the fact that many people enjoy living a lie is probably not a very useful pastime.
Dead dead does suck, but it also puts a fine point on living a lively life, right?
I tried a whole bunch of religions, almost all of them, when I left the cult because I was sure there had to be a big T Truth out there and the Big Consciousness would love me for looking super duper hard.
I did find my big T Truth and it was that I was a smart, nice kid born to one monster and one nice but terrified person, and that I had been trying to make sense of why evil things happen since I was old enough to think. I was also searching desperately for a perfect parental figure who would love and protect me and make me feel safe and okay.
It took a while to understand that religion serves a lot of cultural purposes besides explaining God to the masses, that churches are made of ordinary humans, and that all my searching wasn't really about finding God because nobody's version of God suited me well enough, none of them were my ideal Sky Parent.
It was always way more about me trying to suss out myself and the bad things that happened to me than it was about agreeing with other people about the nature of a Creator.
All the time I was looking for my answers, I hadn't actually noticed all the exquisite wonder of the natural universe, which I eventually found I could explore myself, without prophets, scriptures, rituals or prohibitions.
I also had to learn to think more critically, because the monster that raised me did all he could to prevent me from doing that.
I've discovered now that I feel love for the universe instead of the other way around, which is surprisingly sufficient for me, and that my path to growing this love and sharing it with others is science and reason.
I never found my Sky Parent and have since quit looking because I don't believe there is one, but I did find a loving protector who keeps me safe and tells me I'm okay. It's me. I actually kick butt at granting myself forgiveness and have found that knowledge and skill beat random luck or prayers and offerings in terms of obtaining "temporal blessings". I have given myself many shiny objects without having to ask anyone for them, human or otherwise.
I call myself ptbarnum here because I want the reminder that behind the extraordinary spectacles of magical and mysterious things we get bombarded with in society, all the snake oil and cure-alls for the soul, all the secrets of old written in Ree-formed Uh-jipshin there is ALWAYS some other human getting paid. It reminds me that I used to be a sucker and cautions me not to fall for flimflammery again.
Or I call myself that because my life is a circus, it really depends on the day.
elderolddog Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have gotten a lot of favorable mileage out of my > belief that I am both smart and handsome. These > are terrible lies, but I know I am in good company > when it comes to living a lie. > > People have tried to convert me, to make me see > the truth about myself, but so far I have > successfully resisted. > > Living a religious lie is useful to some people. > Decrying the fact that many people enjoy living a > lie is probably not a very useful pastime. > > ElderOlddog, smart, handsome atheist
>> The responses thus far are as shallow and wacked as LDS Inc.
I disagree.....LDS doesn't allow for anything other than what they tell you. No questions, no disagreement, follow the rules and be like everyone else.
Other churches don't do that, they allow for disagreement, open thinking, and you can come and go as you are.
People are telling you this in their responses. Nothing shallow about the depth of responses so far.
You, on the other hand, seem shallow and whacked like LDS when you propose that no one should join any church after LDS, you want people to conform to your view and all be the same, and when they don't you resort to put downs.....how ever so LDS of you.
Whats a deep response to you? "yeah, no one should ever join or associate with religion after LDS, and if they do they are stupid! yeah!"
It is a personal decision and really not your business. Also all religions are not the same. You may think religion is a lie, but others disagree and many churches leave the member free to interpret They aren't all Biblical literalists.You believe what you like and allow others to do the same without implying they are stupid.
Some need social that religion offers, some don't, some belong to country clubs for this, some as myself don't need it, because I find that being to involved with these organizations robs u of time if u let them. I tell people that ask, I allowed mormonism to rob me of my life, all I had to do is say no, but I try to please.
You're going to be unhappy and angry when you realize that people will choose what works for them. There isn't one way to exit mormonism. If choosing another church or belief system works for an individual, then what's it to you?
I currently attend a Unitarian Universalist church. I go for the fellowship and ritual, which I find necessary in my life. I'm atheist. People will do what they find necessary to have peace and joy in life. It doesn't make them fools, it makes them human.
Jacko Mo Mo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They are all a bunch of made up BS.
Most of life is a bunch of made up BS. We tell ourselves all sorts of lies to get through a day.
A sense of community is something hard to come by. Summarily writing this off as BS buying is myopic to say the least and I'm the least of organized religion fans.
Your broad brush painting of people leaving Mormonism and joining something else doesn't do you justice. I wish no one joined another religion but at least I can try to see why. Ignoring the desires of other human hearts simply because they don't match your own isn't a flattering trait in my opinion.
Religious faith can have a lot of positives. You can have ritual, community, support, kindness, generosity, etc. Not every denomination is abusive. Many churches let you come and go as you please, believe or not believe, donate what you wish and volunteer only if it pleases you. For many denominations, it is not necessary to strictly believe every last bit of church doctrine.
Mormonism trains people to see things in black and white, but there are many shades of gray.
Depends. If you join a dogmatic church that demands more of your money than you comfortably want to give, it may be stupid. If you join a less dogmatic church because you want a social group that maybe does good things for the community and doesn’t require you to profess belief or loyalty, it may enhance your life. Churches are social clubs. The mormon church is a great social club but too many strings attached.
But they're not all equally delusional (in denial of reality). There's a spectrum that pretty much aligns with science denial. JW's are on one end of the spectrum, of totally delusional, along with MORmONs and Evangelical Christians.
Buddhists are on the other end of the spectrum, because they're reasonable. How many times have you heard a religious leader sound like the DL, "If my beliefs are contradicted by some scientific discovery, then I need to change my beliefs, even if it was the Buddha who said it."
Like Carl Sagan said, "Wouldn't it be great if there were a religion that said, 'Wow, a new scientific discovery. Isn't that great. We were completely wrong. But now we see that the truth is far more complex than we believed before. No. it's almost always the other way around."
> Buddhists are on the other end of the spectrum, > because they're reasonable.
================================
I see your point and mostly concur, but even reasonable Buddhists in righteousness commit genocide
All "truths" lead there eventually, because a curse of intelligence is we try and make sense of the world by imposing artificial straight lines upon it, and then confuse those lines with truth and with who we are. It's a limitation of evolutionary psychology. Of how are brains are wired.
I find it bizarre too. IMHO, if one applies the same level of investigation, logic, and reasoning to other religions as one did to the Mormon church, you would ultimately come to the same conclusion.
One of the strangest things I have seen was a guy leave the church and become a devout Muslim. This guy was a BYU grad and RM, and over the past five years has totally devoted himself to Islam, including changing his name. growing out his beard, and moving to central Asia (a former Soviet 'Stan) to study at a mosque and teach English. Truly mind boggling.
Jacko Mo Mo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They are all a bunch of made up BS. > > Watching Ex LDS YouTube stories, they lose all > merit when they summarily announce they've joined > Christian church X, Y, Z. ===================================
Not everyone puts a premium on "truth." Like Henley's lyrics - "just give me something - something I can use "
It depends on how you got into Mormonism in the first place. I started out Catholic. Then my Dad started taking me to the Anglican Church when I was a pre-schooler. Then as I entered my teens I began attending the Baptist Church with a friend.
When I left that organization, my friend got into Mormonism after meeting with the missionaries. I followed. We were in our mid-teens.
The way that I exited Mormonism was to study my way out and this led me to study religion as a whole, which caused me to leave religion behind entirely. I know that I will never be a religious person again.
But my friend went on to a non-denominational Christian Church. She had been taught to love Jesus from the time that she was a baby and that is deeply ingrained in her. She'd decided that Mormonism wasn't for her, but she didn't study her way out. She just left. So that didn't change her love for Jesus.
As much as you can't understand how someone could just join another church, a feeling that I share, I know that she equally can't understand how someone could just walk away from Jesus, simply because they left Mormonism.
As much as I can't understand it, I do understand that my friends don't necessarily think the same way that I do and I respect them for that.
Where I get annoyed is the fact that I don't give my friends a hard time for their beliefs and yet some of them can't resist trying to straighten me out, in their minds. Or some just downright disowned me. Maybe for that, I'm better off. I don't know.
Stupid implies intellectual reason. That is why I left. But it's not why all people leave. People leave for many other reasons.
And people believe for many reasons usually in exclusion of intellectual reason. So it should be no surprise that people go on believing and joining religions even though they left one already.
Rather than stupid, I find it entirely human of people to join religions.
Judgement is one of the methods of discovery and of clarification. Everything has an up side and a down side. Even judgement. Even German Chocolate cake. :)
Well you do have a point there. I just got focused on the "why's" not the intelligence factor.
Some of the people I consider the smartest are still sucked into Mormonism or other religions I do not respect. We often discuss the why's of that, which interest me a lot. There is something at play besides intelligence for sure I would say.
For those of us who scrutinized all religion with the same critical eye as we did Mormonism, I don't know any who could join another church. The others are all just Mormon-Lite.
Joining another religion deemed less offensive than Mormonism seems to work for those who left because they were offended (many who claim they didn't leave for that reason, actually did).
You can't claim yourself truly as long as you need someone to tell you how to live, how to be. If there is any test of this life it is the same as the day we learned to ride bicycles without training wheels.
Done & Done Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > For those of us who scrutinized all religion with > the same critical eye as we did Mormonism, I don't > know any who could join another church. The others > are all just Mormon-Lite. > > Joining another religion deemed less offensive > than Mormonism seems to work for those who left > because they were offended (many who claim they > didn't leave for that reason, actually did). > > You can't claim yourself truly as long as you need > someone to tell you how to live, how to be. If > there is any test of this life it is the same as > the day we learned to ride bicycles without > training wheels.
Jacko Mo Mo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They are all a bunch of made up BS. > > Watching Ex LDS YouTube stories, they lose all > merit when they summarily announce they've joined > Christian church X, Y, Z.
Ah --- yet another caught up in projection -- because speaking of stupid...
You can be an atheist and join several religions including Hinduism, the most ancient, and Universal Unitarian, one of the more recent. Perhaps the OP can delineate exactly what "lies" are involved in being atheist. Or -- not so much.
Not to mention that many, many religious people understand their beliefs as metaphors and symbols not as literal truths. Of course that flies over the heads of the majority of Mormons -- and apparently some former Mormons, too.
Ignorance wedded to arrogance -- not just for the GA anymore!
You can also.take the cafeteria approach and use what works for you and ignore what doesnt. Many religions are okay with that. It isn't nearly as black and white as the OP seems to think. I am gratified that many posters were willing to disagree with him.