How come I never see a headline that says "Theists kill six in New Jersey" ? Black Hebrew Israelites ? Good grief ! So we have black people who want to murder jews ? I need not wonder where these people are getting their idiotic ideas.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/who-are-the-black-hebrews-the-group-linked-to-jersey-city-shooter/

The Black Hebrew Israelites are basically the same as racist neo-Nazi white christian idenitity groups like The Order.

They are not Jews of African ancestry.

It is important to realize that two, completely different from each other, groups (both of them black, both of them descended from the African continent, and both claiming to be Jews) can easily be confused with each other:

1) "Black Hebrew Israelites"--who are virtually entirely of New World/American slave descent, who came originally from WEST African regions (and, thus, were caught up as victims in the international slave trade of five centuries ago), and who seldom, if ever, have any actual genetic connection to actual Jews, and....

2) Genuine Jews who are also black, and ARE the genetic descendents of African forebears who were [almost entirely] NOT part of the American hemisphere slave trade, who largely descended from EAST African regions (Ethiopia, Uganda, Madagascar, etc.), plus a relatively small minority of genuinely, genetically descended, Jews whose forebears came from North Africa.

New World black slaves (regardless of their biological descent) often psychologically identified themselves with the Jews in the Old Testament, not due to any sense of cultural tradition or genetic descent, but because of the commonalities of their situations (the Old Testament stories of Jews being enslaved in ancient Egypt, etc.) This psychological identification was important among New World black slaves because it offered hope for the future, as well as an explanation for their seemingly hopeless situations as the owned property of white slaveowners.

There are many genuine black Jews today in the relevant geographical areas of the world, who ARE the literal descendents of the Jews of ancient times, and many of these, at their often fervent request, have either already been moved to Israel, or are in the process of fulfilling whatever requirements are necessary to move to Israel in the future.

Kulanu (means: "All of Us" in Hebrew; https://kulanu.org ) is a Jewish organization working constantly, worldwide, to "bring home" [to Israel], all genuine descendants of ancient Jewish origin who desire to make aliyah (basically: "immigration to") Israel.

These efforts by Kulanu do NOT include Black Hebrew Israelites, who have no genetic or genuine cultural ties to Judaism or to the Jewish people, ancient or contemporary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

P.S. It is theoretically possible that, as discrete individuals, SOME "Black Hebrew Israelites" COULD decide to seek Jewishly-legal conversion to Judaism (and, as I kind of dimly remember, some of the Black Hebrew Israelites, who moved to south Israel as NON-Jews, have, as individuals, sought, and were granted, legal conversion), so it is possible/probable that SOME (would be a small number) of the descendants of black American slavery, who formerly self-identified as Black Hebrew Israelites, have become actual legal Jews....so they DO exist--though these individuals would be, as a group, a very small minority, no matter where they have chosen to live.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 03:35PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
---------------------------------------------
>
> Kulanu (means: "All of Us" in Hebrew;
> https://kulanu.org ) is a Jewish organization
> working constantly, worldwide, to "bring home" ,
> all genuine descendants of ancient Jewish origin
> who desire to make aliyah (basically: "immigration
> to") Israel.
>
> These efforts by Kulanu do NOT include Black
> Hebrew Israelites, who have no genetic or genuine
> cultural ties to Judaism or to the Jewish people,
> ancient or contemporary.

Is Judaism a religion or an ethnicity?


> P.S. It is theoretically possible that, as
> discrete individuals, SOME "Black Hebrew
> Israelites" COULD decide to seek Jewishly-legal
> conversion to Judaism (and, as I kind of dimly
> remember, some of the Black Hebrew Israelites, who
> moved to south Israel as NON-Jews, have, as
> individuals, sought, and been granted, legal
> conversion), so it is possible/probable that SOME
> (would be a small number) of the descendants of
> black American slavery, who formerly
> self-identified as Black Hebrew Israelites, have
> sought to become actual legal Jews....so they DO
> exist--though these individuals would be, as a
> group, a very small minority, no matter where they
> have chosen to live.

Who has the "authority" other than the individual himself to declare himself a Jew or otherwise? It should be totally based on self identification.

I long believed that a benefit of Judaism (like Islam and some other religions) was that unlike some denominational churches, there is no central "authority" to tell people who does or does not qualify.

xxMo0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai Wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > Kulanu (means: "All of Us" in Hebrew;
> > https://kulanu.org ) is a Jewish organization
> > working constantly, worldwide, to "bring home"
> ,
> > all genuine descendants of ancient Jewish
> origin
> > who desire to make aliyah (basically:
> "immigration
> > to") Israel.
> >
> > These efforts by Kulanu do NOT include Black
> > Hebrew Israelites, who have no genetic or
> genuine
> > cultural ties to Judaism or to the Jewish
> people,
> > ancient or contemporary.
>
> Is Judaism a religion or an ethnicity?

Judaism is both a religion AND an ethnicity. [The best way I have heard it described is "Judaism is a family." Some of your family members are blood-related to you, others of them (spouses of blood family members, for example) are not. Regardless of blood ties or the lack of blood ties, though, ALL of your family relatives ARE family to you.]


> > P.S. It is theoretically possible that, as
> > discrete individuals, SOME "Black Hebrew
> > Israelites" COULD decide to seek Jewishly-legal
> > conversion to Judaism (and, as I kind of dimly
> > remember, some of the Black Hebrew Israelites,
> > who
> > moved to south Israel as NON-Jews, have, as
> > individuals, sought, and been granted, legal
> > conversion), so it is possible/probable that
> > SOME
> > (would be a small number) of the descendants of
> > black American slavery, who formerly
> > self-identified as Black Hebrew Israelites,
> > have
> > sought to become actual legal Jews....so they
> > DO
> > exist--though these individuals would be, as a
> > group, a very small minority, no matter where
> > they
> > have chosen to live.
>
> Who has the "authority" other than the individual
> himself to declare himself a Jew or otherwise? It
> should be totally based on self identification.

Judaism is a family, it is an extremely varied tribe, and it is also governed by laws. The legal definition of a Jew is:
1) Someone born to a Jewish MOTHER. (Fathers do not count.)
--OR--
2) Someone who has converted to Judaism according to the requirements of Jewish law. In particular, so far as this discussion is concerned, this means "Has gone through a qualified Bet Din (rabbinical court composed of three rabbis), and has been deemed, by that court, to now be a Jew."

No single person can legally declare him- or herself a Jew, this is totally a matter of what Jewish law says. (I could not declare myself to be a Catholic, for example, if I were not baptized a Catholic.)


> I long believed that a benefit of Judaism (like
> Islam and some other religions) was that unlike
> some denominational churches, there is no central
> "authority" to tell people who does or does not
> qualify.

You are correct: There is NO "central 'authority'" in Judaism, that authority is posited in rabbinical courts worldwide (which may be ad hoc groups made up of three qualified rabbis who never again serve together as a rabbinical court)....

....and also, in another "configuration," as individual rabbinical opinions (where qualified rabbis opine, as individual rabbis, on whatever the subject is).

Rabbinical opinions of individual rabbis often apply only to those who are in the same "groups" as the rabbis in question--
but any other Jew has the legal right to adhere to that opinion if they want to, although it is not binding on them.

Remember that Jews come in all kinds of "group" affiliations (including atheist Jews--and for those Jewish atheists who seek an atheistic Jewish lifestyle, there is an organized Jewish movement ("denomination"): Secular Jewish Humanism).

Jews also identify by minhag ("tradition"): Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, and various ethnic minhagim: Ethiopian, Chinese, sub-continent Indian, anusim (descendeants of the "conversos" of Inquisition times), etc.

All Jewish groups have basically the "same" Jewish law, but each of these also have their own deviations from "STANDARD"
(because there is no real "standard") Jewish law--so the global Jewish "family" is about as opposite to "central authority" as is possible to contemplate.

In addition, each individual Jew is their own, as it were, "rabbinical court," and is free to accept, or reject, specifics of Jewish law as they see fit. (For example: I, as an individual Jew, do not EVER want the Temple in Jerusalem to be rebuilt, because the PURPOSE of that Temple would be (in the high 90s percentages) to kill animals as a way of "communicating with God.")

Two thousand years ago, following the destruction of the Temple which stood during the time frame of Jesus, Jews as a whole switched over to prayer as a substitute for animal sacrifice, and I deeply hope this continues, without interruption, for the rest of time.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 06:21PM by Tevai.

The word that comes to mind is Shepardic Jew. Am I right or wrong?

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The word that comes to mind is Shepardic Jew. Am I
> right or wrong?

I don't understand, so this is my best guess:

Are you saying that Black Hebrew Israelites are Sephardim? [This is the Hebrew plural form of the singular: Sephardi.]

If so, then no--they are not Sephardi (or, alternatively, a very few might be, given some possible, but improbable in this case, circumstances in a given person's genetic background).

Black Hebrew Israelites believe in polygamy, so there might be some basis for associating them with Mizrahi Jewish (from Arabic-speaking lands mostly) tradition--although even Mizrahim are not allowed NEW polygamous relationships after they immigrate to Israel. (During immigration intake, Mizrahi polygamous relationships which exist at the moment of Israeli acceptance are legally recognized under Israeli law.)

Beyond the remote possibility of Mizrahi tradition, however, I doubt that Black Hebrew Israelites adhere to either Sephardi OR Ashkenazi tradition--whether in prayer, in religious services, or in interpretation of Jewish law, such as some of more rare requirements of what is, or is not, kosher to eat.

(As an easy example: Sephardim are allowed to eat rice during Passover, while Ashkenazim cannot--in both cases due to different rabbinical interpretations from long ago.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2019 04:48PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Beyond the remote possibility of Mizrahi
> tradition, however, I doubt that Black Hebrew
> Israelites adhere to either Sephardi OR Ashkenazi
> tradition--whether in prayer, in religious
> services, or in interpretation of Jewish law, such
> as some of more rare requirements of what is, or
> is not, kosher to eat.
>
> (As an easy example: Sephardim are allowed to eat
> rice during Passover, while Ashkenazim cannot--in
> both cases due to different rabbinical
> interpretations from long ago.)

Most modern-day Jews are not connected in any way to the original Israelites of biblical times, the Mizrahi excepted.

The rabbinical tradition that most modern Jews follow is a modern (post-biblical) evolution, with about as much connection to Israelite religion as the Roman Catholic church has to whatever original little Jesus groups may have existed in the 1st century.

xxMo0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Beyond the remote possibility of Mizrahi
> > tradition, however, I doubt that Black Hebrew
> > Israelites adhere to either Sephardi OR
> Ashkenazi
> > tradition--whether in prayer, in religious
> > services, or in interpretation of Jewish law,
> such
> > as some of more rare requirements of what is,
> or
> > is not, kosher to eat.

I have never been there, but a community of Black Hebrew Israelites exists in Dimona, in the south of Israel. I have no idea what their minhag ["tradition"] is.


> Most modern-day Jews are not connected in any way
> to the original Israelites of biblical times, the
> Mizrahi excepted.

I agree with this, most especially because "anyone" can join the Jewish family/tribe through Jewishly legal conversion. Once a non-Jew has become a Jew, this often leads to procreation down the generations--which usually means future, to-be-born Jews. (The complication, of course, is that Judaism is passed through the maternal line only, so in intermarriages where the mother is not a Jew, children born of that intermarriage are not Jews--but they can, and often do, go through a formal conversion. A number of those in my conversion class were in this situation--they had Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers, and through conversion they were "normalizing" their Jewish status, especially if they were contemplating marriage to a Jew.)


> The rabbinical tradition that most modern Jews
> follow is a modern (post-biblical) evolution....

True. This is how the Talmud (an enormous series of legal discussions about Jewish law) came to be.


> ....with about as much connection to Israelite religion as
> the Roman Catholic church has to whatever original
> little Jesus groups may have existed in the 1st
> century.

Yes!!

No more slaughtering animals in the Temple in the name of religion!!!!

Yay!!

Instead, since the destruction of the last Temple, Jews say prayers.

One of my most fervent wishes is that the Temple NEVER be rebuilt.

Not ever.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2019 10:48PM by Tevai.

the article says that the southern poverty law center listed Black Hebrews as a hate group which is surprising because I thought the dogma these days was that blacks couldn't be racist and being called a bigot is exclusively bestowed on white people.

But all things fair, I agree with the article and I also agree with the SPLC (on this rare instance), the Black Hebrew Israelites are a bunch of thugs, And if you see them coming turn the other way.

They started yelling insults at the highschool kids, before the guy with the drum got involved. Black Hebrews hate everybody, I think.

The highschool kids started yelling insults at the hebrews, before the guy with the drum got involved.

Videos show the kids were gathered in small groups, waiting for their bus pickup following their participation in the March for Life. The Black Hebrews had started insulting the Native Americans, accusing them of worshiping animals, then started catcalling the Covington boys with racist and even homophobic slurs.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/02/03/nick_sandmann_the_truth_in_15_minutes.html

So that's where I'd heard of them before recently. I couldn't remember, so thanks, Caffiend.

They seem seriously mixed up...

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How come I never see a headline that says "Theists
> kill six in New Jersey" ?

Because that would be stupid.

Yes, they belong to a hate group.

This is the clothes pin: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/02/2e/d7/022ed71091ae2d1e967f7f4170245800.jpg

This is an example of their preaching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNt118Dc_vA

They are loud homophobic misogynistic bigots. Generally, it was and probably still is best to avoid the southwest corner of 7th and H Sts NW, so as not to run into them.

Tyson