Background: https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-lds-proselytizing-mission-as-hazing.html

If ones adult identity is culturally determined, and if it is the case that the culture that provides the scaffolding within which adult identity is constructed depends almost entirely on the dictates of the Church, what happens to that adult identity if/when the RM loses his or her faith?
Ex believers are frequently charged with “leaving the Church but not leaving it alone.” Guilty as charged. My thoughts on that are here (https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2019/04/leave-it-alone-no-just-no.html) if you are interested. It has been well over a decade since I left, and I’m still processing what it means for me to leave the Church. From an academic perspective, I wonder if psychosocial theory offers a framework in which to understand the difficulty in leaving the Church, especially for RM’s? Maybe leaving the Church makes the leaver feel that their adult identity is somehow invalidated…an undoing of the resolution to the identity crisis of adolescence, as it were...?
Do RM’s and non RM’s have different experiences in this regard? What about the difference between Elder and Sister Missionaries? When Sisters serve it does not enhance their probability of serving in Priesthood Leadership positions, so is the adult identity of a Sister RM less tied up in the Church than an Elder RM, and so is their exit from the Church likewise different??
Just thinking out loud for the moment…I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

In 1990, I had a girlfriend who moved 1200 miles from our home town, accross country in to the apartment next door to me. We had met at a church dance in the same church building that my parents had been married in several decades earlier, while I was visiting my home town. The relationship didn't work out and I found out over a year after it ended that it was because she had gone out and got knocked-up by a stranger while she was dating me and after saying that she wanted to get married to me, starting after only a few months of our meeting and starting to date. Then she didn't want anyone to find out how she got pregnant and the relationship ended shortly after that, with me wondering what the hell had happened so abruptly to cause her change of heart. I even filed a paternity suit myself a year and an half later, after I found out about the child she had had, about a year after the child's birth. Thank god that through paternity blood testing, I was excluded as the father. Who else could she have had sex with? She was new to the area and she knew no one else there at the time she got pregnant. She had lived there for a few months before getting pregnant (I pieced the timeline together later). To make a long story short, I tried to get her to go to the Bishop with me before I went to see him by myself to tell him that I had sex with her, to repent, after it was obvious that the relationship wasn't going to work. She refused and was excommunicated after she was called-in by the Bishop's court and refused to cooperate with them. She had lied to the Bishop while she and I were together and having sex and even had a calling in her new ward. I was not active there and didn't want to be a hypocrit by lieing to get callings and good standing. Then after her excommunication, a so-called friend of mine came around and started having sex with her too as soon as he found out we had broken-up. Thar sex took place just a few feet away from where I slept at night, on the other side of my bedroom wall. The wall between our respective bedrooms in each apartment was pretty thin and I couldn't escape hearing what was going on at night while trying to sleep. It was the first time I had fallen in love. Those circumstances really messed with my mental health. At the time, I believed that she was being exploited and I didn't have a clue about what had happened. A year later, he was also required by the same court order (the suit I had filed) to submit to paternity testing and he was also excluded as the biological father. As soon as they started having sex on the other side of my bedroom wall, I made sure that he had a church court too. By the time all of those church courts were done, I was hated by several people who had either already been excommunicated, or who really didn't want their membership in the church to be put at risk or terminated. Once she got in to my circle of friends, she had sex with several of them.

One night a few weeks after we broke up, I came home and heard some pretty loud sex coming from the other side of my bedroom wall. I didn't handle things so well but there was no violence. When no one would answer the door, I pounded on the doors and windows. Eventually, I got a response. The ex-girlfriend and my former friend had traded apartments for the night with another couple (Mark and Deborah) that night, probably so they could have loud sex in peace away from my apartment. The other couple were also church members and they knew that I was going to turn them in to their Bishop too and they called the police on me and lied about what had happened. So here now is what happens when someone's whole identity is tied inseparably to the church and their church membership is at great risk of being terminated. All of the men in this story including myself, are returned missionaries.

A few minutes after I told this other couple that I was going to tell their Bishop what I heard and then left, I had a madman (Mark) pounding on my door. When I answered, he had almost a demonic look on his face. In a low angry growl of a voice he repeated over and over "You can't tell on me. You can't tell on me. I'll repent when I am ready to repent but you can't tell on me". Interestingly, he seemed only concerned about himself with no mention of Deborah or by using the word "us", as in 'you can't tell on us'. It was apparently all about only himself in his mind and he was petrified over the likelihood that he might be excommunicated if I told on him. I closed the door in his face and a few minutes later the police showed up and arrested me. The basis of the complaint said that I had come over "unprovoked" and was disorderly and tresspassed. I didn't enter the apartment. A few months later Mark and I sat accross from eachother in his Bishop's office. I wanted him to confirm to the prosecutor's office what had provoked my actions which were not unreasonable, given what had happened. He told the Bishop and the courts that I had made the whole thing up about their having loud sex on the other side of my bedroom wall. With just the three of us there in the Bishop's office, I described the rithmic slamming of the headboard hitting my bedroom wall from the other side, and the unmistakable oohs and aahs that went with it. It was a pretty explicit description. Then Mark looked at his Bishop and said "I could honestly look my savior in the face and say that none of that is true". Wow! Mark had used Jesus as his false witness in what I saw as an almost unbearable pattern of provocation that had taken place over weeks, followed by a malicious prosecution, all to protect his church membership. The arresting officer said later that he would never have made the arrest if my story were true but that no one had told him this before he made the arrest. With four people against me, I barely had time to communicate that I would go peacefully that night, much less to tell my side of the story. I heard later that Deborah (a church member also) fled town to escape having to face her Bishop, writing bad checks to survive. So it's my experience that church members will do anything it takes from committing crimes to using Jesus as their false witness, to preserve their mormon church membership when faced with having to answer for their own actions when those actions go contrary to the religion. I got stuck with a misdemeanor disorderly conduct conviction that I still believe to this day was unjustified and grossly unfair. I was the only one who was telling the truth, including my own response to the long-term provocations against me. It felt like if you've just dragged someone out of a burning building, only to be arrested for tresspassing. But I didn't go in to her apartment that night. At the time I believed that she was there and that she was being exploited by people who were so-called friends. At this point, she was literally the neighborhood use-all and I had been forced to witness it for several weeks. What a waste of falling in love and with someone who wasn't what she claimed to be. What a waste of what had seemed like friendships by my friends and neighbors, who took advantage, simply because they could do it and who attacked me when I opposed those actions by them. What a waste of belief in such a corrupt ecclesiastical system that covered for these people. The masks that everyone was wearing really came off. People will do anything necessary to protect their good mormon reputation and the church leaders will allow any dirty trick necessary to protect the false appearances. No one has ever apologized for any of it and this is truly because they are not sorry for their actions. That is what Mormonism does to people.

After Mark said that he could "look my savior" in the face and then lied about what had happened to his Bishop, he got an extremely guilty look on his face and then looked down, refusing to look back up after that. The Bishop got a disappointed look on his face and told me that he had told Mark not to testify. Then he said "this meeting is over". I didn't want a trial and had told him that several times before this meeting. I wanted the charges to be dropped and that wasn't going to happen with this big lie out there that said I came over "unprovoked" and disorderly. Mark didn't want to admit to lieing to the police either because that is illegal and he didn't want to be prosecuted for lieing to the police. After several weeks of this same kind of provocation toward me and lies by several people who I had thought were friends, all the Bishop cared about was protecting the good image of the church and to hell with honesty or fairness. If the church is going to breed sociopaths like this and then cover for them, then I didn't give a rat's ass about the church. It didn't take long to go from thinking I had a testimony, to decide that the mormon church is a complete fraud after that.

....(WOW !) .....

I have a question.
what gives you or anyone else the right and or obligation to rat out anyone?
In my opinion you or anyone else is attempting to forcibly interfere with the rights of another human being.
MY OPINION ONLY

Thank you.

No one has a right to interfere in anyone else's romantic life, to "defend" anyone who doesn't request "defense," or to report anyone to religious authorities. Ignoring personal boundaries in such ways is the essence of cult behavior and it is improper as well as, in some cases, illegal.

Interesting topic, I would say that RMs have a harder time leaving the church than non RMs. And the reason I would say that is because of the strange magical unexplained experiences missionaries get to have. If your not an RM you don't get to have all the supernatural stuff happen for two years. I know that is a blunt thing to say and there are probably some people who will disagree. But I'm telling you missions are strange and you look at things different if you've been on one!

I'm an RM and in my short (very ordinary, very unspectacular) 2 year mission (state side) I saw all kinds of weird things. Here are a few. A crossing of paths un-accidently with the prince of darkness. I saw a car drive itself and avoid smashing someone. I saw and experienced miraculous healings, instant regeneration of damaged tissue.

Non RMs have the advantage of not knowing these kinds of things so it's easier to believe it's all fairy tales, I would say.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...I would say that RMs have a
> harder time leaving the church than non RMs. And
> the reason I would say that is because of the
> strange magical unexplained experiences
> missionaries get to have.


Serving a mission made it EASIER for me to leave because I finally got a look at what passed for divinely directed leadership. What a bunch of self-important jerks! What bad decision making! This is Jesus working through them? What a load of baloney.

And it was while preaching the gospel every day that I realized I didn't actually believe any of it.

The only strange magical unexplained experiences I had was not freezing my nuts off in Canadian winters.

You have to remember, too, that a good percentage of missionaries don't want to be there, that they're only making their parents happy, or hoping to secure the heart of a true believer.

A large percentage of returned missionaries end up going inactive, if not completely abandoning Mormonism.

It's easy to say that no one should be ratted out to church leaders and in most cases, I would agree. At the same time, there are times when it is totally appropriate to report things to church leaders and to expect an excommunication of others (not that your expectations will have any effect on the process), and to expect help from church leaders to minimize any damages if you've broken the rules yourself and want to make amends. I paid tithing and served a fulltime mission. In a time of personal crisis, it's reasonable to expect church leaders to help put some sanity into the insanity. If other church members have harmed you, they should be held accountable. If they refuse to cooperate in repairing the resulting damages, they should be excommunicated.

At times in church social groups, it is obvious that a friend and his girlfriend are either having sex or are probably having sex. It's their business and no one else's business. So you respect their relationship and their privacy and stay out, except to be a friend to one or both of them and to keep their secrets. But what happens when instead of staying out, your brother in the priesthood decides that if you can have sex with your girlfriend, then he should be able to have sex with her too? The trust you put in him, well, he would rather get laid than to be the friend you thought he was. So behind your back (at first) he starts having sex with her too. Pretty soon, you realize that this woman you decided to take a chance on and fall in love with, is literally the neighborhood use-all and that your friends and neighbors (more than one of them) are all having sex with her too. It's not imagined. Now you can hear it happening like a loud porno on the other side of your bedroom wall. In fact, it pervades your only place of retreat, where you sleep at night. But at first, you don't discover this through anyone telling it to you or by their making any apologies to you. You notice at first, a brief look of trepidation on your friends' faces when they see you. You innocently and naively wonder what they are worried about and dismiss it. You don't find out until later when one day she is rubbing your back and telling you (convincingly) that she loves you with no sign that anything is wrong. The next day she brakes up with you. The next day after that (literally) she wants nothing to do with you but she is hanging out with your friends. Then the day after that (as in two days later) you can hear her on the other side of your bedroom wall, having sex with one of your neighbors. Then the day after that (day three) your so-called priesthood brothers, some of which you have known for years, start coming around and are suddenly on the other side of your bedroom wall, they're having sex with her too. If it were just sex, you might recover relatively quickly. But what if she is the first woman you've ever told her that you love her? What if she is the first woman you ever bought jewelry for? She was quite poor when I met her. For christmas she got me a six-dollar walgreens wall clock. I kept that clock for ten years afterward because I remembered how wonderful I felt when she gave it to me. What if you were a virgin when you met her and you believed her when she said she wanted to marry you? But that was the person you knew three days ago. Now, she is some other person who wants to have sex with anyone else and doesn't want anything to do with you anymore. In retrospect, the weird part is that we didn't have any arguements, ever. Having been in a healthy relationship now for over twenty-five years with someone else now, I know that some level of healthy arguing is normal. But in this first relationship, we didn't ever argue or fight at all. So in my mind at the time, everything was going well until we broke up. With such an abrupt break-up I had to ask myself if she was pregnant. If she was, how was I going to sort anything out, considering how many potential fathers there were? It's one thing for a man to be overly protective of a woman to the the point of possessiveness. I was never that way with her which is why so much happened before I started catching-on. But whatever was going on after I started figuring it out and then it was obvious, she appeared to be very vulnerable and I still loved her. When your friends in the church jump-in on the chance to get some of the sex action on day three after the break-up, simply because they have the opportunity, that does more than just hurt. It makes you wonder what about any of your relationships in life are real. When they're doing it where I can hear it from my own bedroom when I need sleep and recovery, it tries your mental health. The other couple that were using her apartment in the story above, they should have known better. All they wanted to do is get even for my telling the church leaders what was going on, as in retribution for her being excommunicated. I might not have said anything about them to the church leaders if they hadn't lied to the police to get me arrested unjustly instead of just telling the police what they were really doing that might have provoked me. They knew more than I did, about what was going-on with her and how I felt about it. There was no empathy from them at all. I suspect that perhaps Mark might be the child's biological father. Neither myself nor the so-called friend of mine who she married are the biological father. Paternity blood testing proved that. So it's probably Mark or it could also have been any of my neighbors or other so-called friends who is the child's father. Who knows? You can't trust anybody. In these circumstances, it seemed reasonable to ask for the help of church leaders to sort things out and to expect that anyone who didn't communicate honestly on the matter to be excommunicated. If Mark hadn't have called the police, he wouldn't have had a need to lie to them to maintain his good mormon RM image and thus, also in the process, he created the basis for a malicious prosecution. Then I wouldn't have attempted to press the issue with his Bishop in attempts to reverse the malicious prosecution. That was why I pressed the issue between Mark and his church leaders. When Mark's Bishop saw his lie using Jesus name in attempts to add credibility to the lie, and that the Bishop wouldn't even to attempt to right the injustice, I knew then that I belonged to a cult. Either we believed in the church or not. I had given my Bishop a clean confession months earlier, believing that I would probably be excommunicated as a result. Regardless of anything else, I was consistent with my beliefs. Everyone else spun every lie necessary to have sex with whoever they could and to to use yet more lies in attempts to not get caught. As soon as there was a pregnancy, everyone doubled-down on the lies. I may be open-minded but I would never have opened my potential new mate at the time up to all of those fucking creepy people and their backstabbing-hypocracy. She had never expressed an interest to me about wanting an open relationship whether in the marriage she talked about wanting, or otherwise. She turned out to be one of them, fucking creepy and nothing to offer but creepy mormon-style lies and gaslighting to get what she wanted without coming by it honestly. I would never do such a terrible thing to a friend (or to anyone else for that matter) and still can't fully comprehend why anyone would treat another human being this way, especially over a period of months.

I am not a prude. By all means, everyone who wants to have sex with any other consenting adult should be allowed to do it. But at the same time, people have a right to boundries and to be treated with respect and honesty. I would never lie to a woman about loving her, to get something else from her that I wanted. I would never sneak around with a friend's wife or girlfriend. I would not have sex with others who have a friendship or other relationship with any woman who I was intimately involved with, without her permission first. In a dating situation, I wouldn't lie about what I was looking for and disrupt the life of the other person or destroy their relationships, to take what I wanted from them and their network of people, leaving several people's lives in shambles. Even if you belong to the Mormon cult, you should be honest with church leaders. Otherwise, why even play the part? Mormons do not understand nor respect boundries. They'll even give up their church membership if necessary if they think they can get what they want from others in exchange. Because they know that the church leaders will eventually sanction whatever happens,no matter how rotten the foundation was, or who was hurt in the process. This institutional lack of integrity is why I left the church. Although I was greatly offended, that offense is not why I left. The church leaders fucking sanctioned everything I've written about here. It is okay with them. They took part in it and tried to make me think I was crazy for questioning everything that went wrong. All of this creepy sociopath behavior, that is a normal part of Mormonism. Sell your soul if necessary. Even use Jesus as a false witness to your priesthood leaders if necessary. Just don't ever admit to doing anything wrong and keep paying tithing and attending church. This is the framework. Some of us would give anything necessary to escape from it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2019 10:20AM by azsteve.

azsteve,
I don’t think you violated any boundaries. I think you did the right thing.

When we see others doing things they have promised not to do, such as vowing before God that they will not have sex with someone who is not their legal and lawful spouse, we SHOULD expose that person. That person is a deceiver. If we say nothing, then we are an enabler. Corruption continues when good people who know about deceitful and dishonest behavior keep silent. If we want to be a part of a community where we can trust others we have to speak up.

People should not pretend to be what they are not. And they shouldn’t deceive others. If we want to live in a decent community and a decent country we have to be able to trust that other people ARE what they represent themselves to be. We should not participate in covering up their deceits.

If we turn a blind eye we are enabling corruption, and enabling corruption is what makes an entire country corrupt.

You describe church rules as if they were state or national rules. They are not. Legally, following the former can get you in serious trouble with the latter.

1990 was a long time ago, but the actions adumbrated above are the sort that led to the adoption of both stalking and stand-your-ground laws across the country. In some states, particularly those with some variant of your "home is your castle" laws, that behavior could get a person justifiably shot.

In today's society, Disturbing the Peace would be a gift. A very generous gift.

Thanks for the supportive comments. We weren't married but she had pushed so hard for a few months for marriage that marriage seemed almost imminent until she went off the deep end and had sex with a lot of people who I had introduced her to and with my neighbors. So many church members are stuck on this marriage or no marriage thing, like there doesn't need to be any integrity between a couple at all until after marriage. I was naive enough to assume that I could trust my girlfriend at the time, and my friends, especially because I was a good friend myself to them. I have now been in a good non-married relationship now for twenty-five years. As the church puts it, living in sin. But it's been anything but sinful and I am with a good woman and happy now. Meanwhile, most of my friends (real friends and former friends) have been married and divorced, some of them several times. Actually, not being married in that first relationship made things worse up front as people were so dismissive about what had happened. But on the back-end, all it took was a paternity suit to resolve the paternity question and I was free of it. Emotionally it wasn't that easy. But there were no legal entanglements related to any marriage. Things wouldn't have been so bad emotionally if I would have had some foresight enough to tell her I didn't want her to move in next door to me and if I hadn't of introduced her to anyone I know. But when your intentions are good, you don't spend much time trying to protect yourself from what your friends might do to screw you over.

In response to the comments by Lot's wife, she did spread rumors that I was stalking her and was obsessed with her. But those stories didn't work, at least not legally. That night after I was arrested, she filed a harassment injunction suit. Everyone in the church social group ate that story up but didn't seem to care about what she was doing to provoke things. But despite the disorderly charges which were brought up by her, the Superior Court judge gave her a lecture in open court on her causing of provocation before tossing her petition out (dismissing it). He said that he couldn't see a pattern of harassment by me but that she knows or should know that her actions might provoke me. I had been explicit in my descriptions to the judge of what had happened and she should have been embarrassed to be in the room as I described openly what I heard. That day in court was the last time I had any contact with her except for the paternity suit which was handled by the attorneys. Technically, she did have a legal right to have loud sex on the other side of my bedroom wall. But under the circumstances, it was cruel and not necessary. What kind of a person does that to someone who has done nothing bad to them? The Superior court judge had more empathy than any so-called judge in Israel (mormon bishop) did.

I would strip the Mormon stuff out of this and ask if your behavior was socially and legally acceptable. Socially, it was not. A person can have sex with anyone they want, whether they are in or out of a relationship. If you don't like it, you should end the relationship. If you don't like the sounds emanating form your neighbor's apartment, you should move. Period.

Legally things were different in the early 1990s. But in 2016 AZ adopted a new stalking law that would almost certainly cover what you did back then. In recent years AZ has also adopted one of the more aggressive stand-your-ground laws in the country. What that means is that you could be shot at her door or window and she would very possibly escape all responsibility.

The LDS church does all sorts of unethical things. But that is separate from what is permissible in modern society and according to modern laws. What you did may have been legal at the time, but it almost certainly is not today. And there has never been a time when it was ethically okay to intrude in the social life of a person who did not want the intrusion.

I guess everyone has a right to their opinion. I guess I could have been driven out of my home as a means of getting some space to recover from the break-up instead of pushing back and using the church's disciplinary system to let her know that what she was doing was unacceptable and cruel. I guess that's one of those 'what would Jesus do' solutions. But I have no regrets for turning her in to the church leaders and getting her excommunicated. I trusted the Judge's words when he spoke about provocation and could see that he didn't give her complaint any credibility as a result of her own actions. Without any pattern of harassment, judges whether now or then do not issue restraining orders. Stalking means more than one confrontational incident and turning them over to their Bishop doesn't count as anything. The courts also consider whether the other person is being provoked and it's a little difficult to justify getting a restraining order when you bring provocation to them and you should know how that what you're doing might affect them. You don't have to violate the law to provoke somebody. Judges go by reasonable standards and not by mormon standards to make those decisions, even today. Interestingly, it's the real judge who acted fairly. Actually, I should have called the police and filed a complaint myself long before things got that far. Underneath it all though, was sheer exploitation of a relatively innocent person, me. Lie to someone because they have something you want and they wouldn't give it to you if you told them the truth. That is how some people chose to operate. I see myself now as a winner compared to how things could have gone if I had actually married such a sociopath. When I first met her, she told me that her former husband (also an RM) broke in to her home and beat her and her previous boyfriend up (said he gave her a bloody nose in front of their kids) and that he ended up going to jail for it. I figured that he must have been really crazy when she first told me that story. There is no excuse for what he did and I would not want to minimize or justify his wrong-doing. At the same time one has to ask why he felt the need to do it (just a question not a justification) given how she dealt with me. She told me near the end of our relationship that she started cheating on him three days after their marriage ceremony. A part of why I filed the paternity suit was because I saw the likelihood of an endless string of men coming and going in and out of her life and at least some of them being more like her ex-husband (high potential for violence) than like myself. One of my strongest beliefs is that a man should never hit a woman. It's not just a rule, it's a sacred obligation that I have always held to, no matter what happens. If a man violates that obligation, he is less of a man. Also, if the kid was mine, I had to take care of business before the statute of limitations ran out. If the child wasn't mine (and he wasn't), I could move-on and leave that issue behind (which I did) after the medical paternity testing came back. We lived in the same ward and after this all happened, she was excommunicated for her third time. Think about that. How many people do you know who get excommunicated three times before they even turn age twenty-four? Why can't someone who wants an active sex life with a string of strangers just be honest about what they want, at least with the people they're involved with? Why talk about love with someone that you have no intention of really loving? Answer: they bought all of that bullshit from the church and so they choose to live a double life instead of exploring sex honestly and responsibly, like love and sex always have to be mutually exclusive. With respect to the topic of this thread, this is how trauma involving the leaving of the church happens a fair amount of the time. People's beliefs are messed-up because of the religion and those people adapt over time, to be hardened against church discipline each time they experience it. They say:"Then I was bad. But I am good now, until I am not anymore". That is how it goes, back and forth until there is no more core of real morality left in the person and no empathy for others. The church forgives them every time eventually, until the next time they do it and eventually the person gets excommunicated or excommunicated again. What a sick and offensive cycle to participate in, as opposed to just resigning and being honest with people about what you're looking for.

I heard that after your third excommunication, it takes a minimum of ten years to get back in to the church again. If you turn these hypocrits in and get them excommunicated enough times, they'll probably stay where they belong, out of the church for good. I doubt that this ex-girlfriend is capable of being monogamous for ten years nor about staying with a believing member that long without several marital problems that revolve around her infidelities and that make it to the Bishop, at least every few years. So she is probably out of the church for good. Let everyone know exactly what they did if you were negatively affected and if they're doing the Dr Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde routine instead of leveling with you about who they are and what they're looking for. In the worst case, they could say 'I am sorry. I didn't mean to do that to you". If they want you to keep your mouth shut, all they need to do is to treat you with honesty and respect and to make apologies where appropriate. The first thing the Bishops always want to know is "who else knows about this?". You always want that answer to be "Everyone, and there is going to be a lot of embarrassment on the church if you don't handle this correctly". Then if the church doesn't handle the situation responsibly, you tell everyone who doesn't know already.

You have a strange way of mixing Mormon standards and legal standards as if they are related. What matters in the wider world is whether your behavior was socially and legally acceptable. In fact they were not. Your constant invocation of Mormon rationales and Mormon procedures, your suggesting that the church should have had some role in judicial proceedings, merely confuses that picture.

The standards for restraining orders aren't as you suggest. Judges give out ROs for credible complaints long before a hearing is convened; all that is necessary for a temporary order is a plausible statement of danger. And judges often don't care who imposes one on whom because all ROs are reciprocal. If you get one, you are as bound by it as she is; as is true the other way around. So a judge might have issued one for her, or for you, and have sent you back to your apartments. If either of you then banged on the other's door, that person would be arrested and probably jailed for the night. If it happened more than once, the violator would go to jail for a longer period of time and face additional charges. The mere lack of self-control frequently transforms a misunderstanding or even a false claim into a serious legal matter for the innocent party.

What is one to do in the situation you describe? Immediately move away. If the provocations you experience are difficult to manage, get out of the apartment complex that very day. Relocate to another apartment and have friends or a moving company collect your belongings.

I don't know anything about your judge--another reason to avoid confrontation is judges' unpredictability--but the notion that your ex could be blamed for provoking you for using her apartment for sex is unreasonable. Granted, things were a lot more backward in 1990, but by today's standard that argument would have gotten short shrift. Indeed, in today's world anyone who had a reasonable fear that you were threatening her could have shot you and gotten off. It happens to people who knock on doors on Halloween and it would be a mistake to believe it couldn't happen to an ex-lover who is pounding on windows in an apparently jealous rage.

You got off easy, azsteve. It could have been a lot worse.

I think things could have been much worse. Things have changed since 1990. All I know is what I remember from that time period. I had an attorney who explained the legal end of things when it got that far. And at that time, I still believed in the church. But I don't really see a mixing of standards (church vs non-church) as an active strategy then as much as it was a part of who I was at the time. I acted mostly on principal then and was pretty ignorant about the relevant laws. My heart was always in the right place.

At the time, everyone involved in these tragic events was a member of the church and we had a right to expect certain behavior from eachother and to expect to look out for eachother as friends. In retrospect, moving out right away would have been the safest way to handle the situation because none of those people were my friends. I was pretty naive back then and they were all definitely playing hardball against me, and playing for keeps. She started out wanting to use me for a well planned agenda. They wanted to have sex with her. She wanted to get pregnant right away and to get married right away. When I kept track of her periods and refused to have intercourse with her during her most fertile times, she went out and found a complete stranger to get her pregnant instead.

Apparently, I was the only one looking for real love and someone to be my equal partner in life with. I was a lot more trusting and generous about everything in life back then, compared to a bit of an unforgiving and untrusting edge that I developed as a result of what happened back then. I think that my desire to protect her at the time, had little to do with posessiveness which is probably characteristic of someone who is accused of stalking or of being obsessed with someone else. I tried to avoid her after the war between us started. I think it seemed more believable to me at the time that she would never choose to bond with some one else where I could literally hear what was happening from my own bedroom, than to believe that she would choose to hurt me on purpose for some kind of twisted fun or alterior motive. Nothing added up and that was really scarry at the time.

Ultimately, she was doing it for fun and she seemed to enjoy hurting people too. I didn't know it at the time, but she was pregnant and was probably trying to trap the next guy into a marriage by using sex as the bait and her only workspace to those ends was in her apartment. At that point, I had become just the guy next door and she didn't give a damn about what I thought or felt since she never really cared to begin with. Non-members just walk away whereas church members are more gullible and there is always a guy's parents and Bishop to keep him in-line if he gets a woman pregnant and then runs away. Any so-called friends I had at the time were just potential customers/victems of hers and I eventually realized that she was definitely not a victem herself. The sex was her currency in what I would call a marriage of prostitution. She gives the man sex and he supports her financially. She cheats all she wants to. But love was off the table. I had told her months earlier thatI loved her (the stupid and naive younger me did that) and I meant it. But I was holding back on marriage until I knew her better. It seemed odd to me that she wanted to get pregnant and to get married, both right away soon after we met. She had things all planned out and wanted us both to move in with her parents (a small, lower income home). I told her that I could pay all of our Bill's and not need to move in with her parents and that I preferred not to live under someone else's roof when we don't need to. Good thing I didn't jump right in to that trap. The guy that she ended up marrying was a former friend of mine who followed that exact plan with her. It didn't last and I am sure he paid a heavy price (karma).

But to the topic of this thread, having gone on a mission doesn't change anything. All of the men in this social group were RMs. If anything, the mission made them more hypocritical (like Mark), or more in search of an ideal that didn't really exist there, like myself. It certainly didn't help me to identify a good mate. A mission is more of a sad state of existing while the mormon men wait (and do little else) on their missions to become an RM. That's all it is. I was a bit different. I had very little structure growing up. My parents never cared where I was and I could go and do what I wanted to do without needing to get permission, starting at a young age. They were both alcoholics and didn't care. The church brought stability and community in to my life. Neither of my parents wanted me to go on a mission. There was no pressure to go. I was the first amongst my group of friends to commit to going. I was often frustrated that the other missionaries didn't want to be there. There is no mystery or magic to it. There are only the lies and embellishments that the missionaries tell to others after they get home. The honest ones don't say much about it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2019 03:03PM by azsteve.

azsteve,

I generally like most of what you post. And it appears to me from this thread that you were badly hurt by a person you loved, by friends you trusted, and by the Church's policies and leaders. It does seem that you were very justified in feeling betrayed.

That said, I had hoped while I was reading your comments that you would include as part of your criticisms of the Church the fact that its teachings led you to feel justified in the inappropriate behavior in which you engaged, and that you now see your behavior and its legal consequences among the ways that you suffered as a result of your association with the Church.

Instead, you seem to have doubled down that your behavior was appropriate. If it was hypocritical for your ex and your friends to violate Church teachings on chastity, and then lie about it, it was still hypocritical for you to violate teachings you still believed were true, even if you thought you were going to marry this person (you were in a glass house, so don't throw stones). It appears that your turning in other people to their bishops and your confronting the people in the apartment next to you were actions taken in spite, out of a desire for revenge, not in defense of the Church's "purity." (And even if for the latter, your actions were not appropriate.) I have been jilted before, and it hurt. It made me feel, at times, angry with the person who "betrayed" me (to my way of thinking at the time). And I am embarrassed to say I tried to convince the girl that her new guy wasn't good for her. (She eventually figured that out for herself.)

After that, I adopted the view that if a woman to whom I was attracted didn't feel the same about me, she was doing me a favor. Indeed, the woman who broke up with you and then started sleeping around probably did you a huge favor, because the two of you likely wouldn't have had a lasting, happy relationship. (This is not to suggest you, she, or the other guys did anything wrong in having consensual sexual relationships.)

As much as I enjoy the excellent writing skills of Lot's Wife, I sometimes disagree with her. But this is not one of those times. Regardless of how poorly you were treated (and you were), regardless of how hypocritically others acted (and they did), you still had no business pounding on the apartment door. And you admitted as much when you said you didn't react well. The best reaction would have been to think to yourself, "Wow! I really dodged a bullet. Thank you, ex, for showing me that we wouldn't be good together." Then leave her and the other guys alone. Let them lie to their bishops about being "worthy"; as you later found out, it doesn't meany anything anyway.

I am very glad that you figured out the Church is a fraud, that you found someone better for you, and that you have been in a satisfying relationship for 25 years. I wish you all the best.

USN77, I appreciate and find a lot of value in what you wrote here. Everyone involved including myself was acting outside of what we believed or claimed to believe at the time. So thank you for your opinion on this matter and maybe I need to look closer at my own motives at the time. All I can say for sure about my own actions was that I was doing my best at the time in a no-win situation that I felt pushed in to after trusting others not to do to me, exactly what they ended up doing. I don't think that my actions at the time were intended as retaliations as much as a self-defense and an attempt to restore everyone's integrity, including my own, at least to a point that I could understand and deal with, which is what I really wanted at the time. It's easy to deceive ourselves. Maybe I need to look closer at my own motives from that time to get any sense of peace over what happened then, going forward now. Clearly I did dodge the bullet when it came to the relationship. Clearly that relationship wasn't good for me and I do have a sense of peace about the fact that she is with someone else and not me now. It didn't take long back then after the dust settled, for me to come to that conclusion.

When it comes to what was and wasn't appropriate at the time, that relationship was not appropriate, only because I was under covenants from the temple that conflicted with my actions. But that really was just between her, myself, and the church. Since I have since renounced my temple covenants and have officially resigned from the church, any sexual relationships that I have after that are absolutely appropriate as long as I am in integrity with my partner. But even when that 'inappropriate' relationship was in process back in 1990, people have responsibilities to stay in integrity with eachother also. Even non-members world-wide know and highly value these values. To erase those requirements of human integrity and to give them no regard what-so-ever simply because someone else is violating their temple covenants so you can have no integrity yourself, is the worst sin of all. It's not all the same. I know men who will tell any lie to as many women as they can, to get in to as many women's pants as is possible, as absolute predators who have no concern for the well being of the women they use and then promptly dump. Many long lasting marriages and eventual temple-sealed families started out with a pre-marital pregnancy. The two scenarios are not the same. For some Peter-priesthood hypocrit to stick his penis in to your girlfriend and use as a justification that 'you did it too and thus violated your covenants too' loses the whole moral point of the issue when it comes to human relationships and integrity. We need to be in integrity with eachother first. Religious beliefs between so-called 'brothers and sisters' comes after that. The lie is also often worse than the offense. If the church can't respect these values also, then it's just one more reason to resign your church membership. Otherwise you just live in a cult where everyone just has sex with everyone else based on any lies they want to tell. Then it's all sanctioned by the leadership who looks the other way and when pressed, says that categorically it is all 'next in seriousness to murder'. What a screwed-up system that would be and in fact exists in the mormon church today. There are degrees of good and bad that the church refuses to recognize and that they should recognize. They speak of the atonement as a reason to forgive others. But these others don't care about forgiveness. They want to fuck your wife or girlfriend and then just move-on. Either that or they just want to drain your financial resources and then be gone. They don't care about who they hurt. Any valid church should care about these things.

The things that tend to haunt me now about those past events, have to do with my current lack of ability to trust others now, as a result of what happened to me back then. I always did plan to put my female partner (whether married or not) first, above others. With respect to the church, this issue can be a tough call perhaps for believers. But I decided then that putting religious beliefs that essentially prohibited intemacy, above genuine intemacy with your potential life mate seemed cowardous and disingenuous to your potential life partner. She was the one that pushed the sexual relationship and I decided that I would go with it and take ownership of my own actions with respect to that, which is what I did. I didn't expect to invite my neighbors and friends in the church in to that situation when I invited her to live next to me and I introduced her to my friends. I thought I was working on an expedited track to marriage, which is what she was pushing for and what I thought would make both of us happy for the long-term, at the time. I was quite shocked at the orgy of lies and backstabbing that followed my naively placing of trust in others (fresh meat for exploitation). I was particularly gifted at sales work at the time and couldn't avoid what I read on everyone's faces when they all started lieing to me all at once. Even the church took part in lieing to me and hurting me which was ultimately what made my relationship to the church unrecoverable. They could have excommunicated me and they didn't. However that went would have been fine with me. Whether or not I got excommunicated and started-over on a path to repentance the mormon way seemed irrelevant to me at the time. I would do whatever it took to repair things and whatever they wanted to do in the church courts, I trusted would be what was best for me. But instead,the church leaders supported what I saw as an infrastructure that worked against me, including the hiding of material evidence from the courts of law, and lieing and trying to stop me from filing a paternity suit to clean-up that matter. She was just using me. My Friends and neighbors were all just using me. I could see it on their faces even when they lied. The church was just using me too and possessed no real moral direction. These failures all at once caused my whole life and mental health (severe clinical depression) to collapse all at the same time. I never thought I could be that deeply harmed until after it had actually happened.

There is truly this system out there that almost everyone plays along with, and appears to allow them to pretend to be good people when they are not good people. Then there is the reality of liers and backstabbers when the masks all come off, all of who have no principles and who just do whatever it takes to get what they want from others without the empathy that even most non-members would consider to be sacred. They have no real integrity nor concern for anyone other than for themselves and what they can take from you. They might be sitting next to you at church, or singing christmas carols next to you at christmas time. But these people have no core. If you do anything against the rules yourself (no one is perfect), then they jump right-in and decide that if you can break the rules, then so can they. Behind their decisions, there is no wisdom nor empathy at all that I can see.

When I see a friend who is going to church with his girlfriend and it is obvious that they are also having a sexual relationship, I hope the best for my friend in his happiness together with her and I stay out (do not pursue her) because I respect my friend and I see her as a person and not as a sexual object. Something also tells me that to interfere and to see her as a sexual target because of her sexual relationship with him would just be wrong on so many levels, even though they are not married. In that situation, it's pretty easy to keep your covenants and to not even see a temptation in the situation. You're happy for your friend and for her too, and that's where it ends. But what do we say about the guy who is so sexually ravenous that seeing your relationship is more to him like a shark smelling blood in the water from miles away? These people are a disease and I just don't understand them. I still haven't recovered from that and I've isolated myself from all but a small core group of friends, as a result. It's amazing that I did find my sweetheart (obviously someone else) of twenty-five years now. I got what is most important to me in the end. I love her with all of my heart. Those animals in the Mormon church who want nothing more than to use you for financial support (too many of the women), or the men who just want to shit on your relationship or take your partner for themselves, I freed myself from them when I resigned from the church. Since the church breeds these sociopaths and refuses to hold them accountable in any way, shape, or form, I know that I did the right thing by resigning my membership in the church. That still doesn't make the world seem like a safe place now. There are mormon churches everywhere and the last thing they stand for is integrity. Yes, the people are imperfect. They'll prove to you just how bad humanity can be if you give them the opportunity.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2020 05:18PM by azsteve.

Everyone has a right to quiet enjoyment of their real property, even renters. What I used to do when I lived in a loudass apartment complex is I'd knock on the door and tell them to cut the crap before I call the police. If no on replied, so be it. I made good on that threat when necessary. Some folks need their beauty rest more than others.

Now

With respect to narcing - BAD FORM. I understand that TSCC encourages and rewards narcing, but if you're doing the same damn thing that you're narcing on others about, that's more than crap behavior.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2020 12:19AM by Beth.

Of course he shouldn't have to move.

But if the situation is one in which he is tempted to do things like bang on doors or windows late at night, things that could get him arrested, then moving is the right thing to do. This isn't a question of his obligations to others: it is his obligation to protect himself.

Hell, bang on the wall. Holler, "I'm calling the cops if you don't cut the crap." Crap not cutted? "911? - I think my neighbors are having a physical altercation. There's a lot of banging and yelling. Could someone do a welfare check? No, I have no idea if they have weapons."

Sure. Calling the cops is the best strategy: call and disengage. But if the cops show up and the ex explains that azsteve is a jilted lover, they aren't going to take his complaints that seriously. And if further problems occur, as they in fact did, then Steve is the one who is in jeopardy. From the police perspective this could easily devolve into a case of stalking or even domestic violence.

It's a question of what is safe for Steve. Calling the police is a great first step. But if that doesn't produce the desired results and he remains emotionally involved, he's in danger. If I were he, I would move rather than let my passions get me in what is potentially serious trouble. As you know, every tie you engage the police you are rolling the dice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2020 12:44AM by Lot's Wife.

You can request to be anonymous.

And seriously. You're having sex and the cops show up because you're loud as hell and the cops hear the loud as hell? The give zero fucks about jilted lovers.

If you're concerned that the noisy mofos will not longer be noisy when the cops show up, you hold the phone near the noisy mofos and ask the 911 person, "Can you hear that?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2020 12:43AM by Beth.

I totally get the legal exposure the caller creates for themself by placing the call, and the possible repercussions cannot be discounted.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2020 12:47AM by Beth.

On that one occasion (the couple that were her friends), it was literally loud enough that I could have held the phone to the wall and said "can you hear that?". It was unbelievably loud and what finally caused me to react. I even asked myself later if it might have been a setup on that particular night. But it just sounded way too real. That couple just showed no restraint at all. On other times when it was the ex-girlfriend and various other guys, it wasn't as loud. I think that she thought no one could hear. But when it is otherwise quiet and you need sleep and you're trying to recover from the end of the relationship, it doesn't take much sound to pass through a hollow wall and accross the room. In retrospect, out of self preservation I should have moved. That would have been just one more slap in the face (breaking the lease, paying moving expenses, leaving my home), after the goodness that I had shown to her. But it would have been most prudent. In the harassment injunction hearing, before the judge tossed out the case, he lectured her on her actions and said something about 'dogs don't live this way. It's amazing that some people choose to live this way'. The fact that the courts were fair and the church leaders had it wrong was another indicator that the church is just a cult which was a new crack in my belief system at the time. I met with the arresting police officer in the lobby of the police station a few weeks later in attempts to try to figure out if I was wrong myself or not, given all of the facts that he didn't know previously. I made sure that he felt safe and in a position of strength by asking to meet him in his own domain at the police station lobby. He was a nice person and could have said anything he felt like saying, which could have included some kind of attitude or lecture if he didn't like me or thought I needed to be corrected. Instead, he listened and said that he would have never made the arrest if he had known what had provoked me. He didn't have to say that if he didn't want to say it. Although he made a mistake by not letting me speak before he made the arrest, I didn't hold that against him. Who knows what he was told about me and I didn't envy the risks that he probably takes every day. I got what I wanted out of that meeting. But once criminal charges make it to the prosecutors office it's not so easy as the officer deciding that maybe he made a mistake. It was after that that I tried to go through church leaders to get Mark to tell the truth to the prosecutors office. The truth was that as an RM, he would rather use Jesus as a false witness than to risk his membership in the church by telling the truth. At the same time, he didn't want to risk being prosecuted himself for lieing in a police report.

Interestingly, as a believer in the church at the time, my world view and sense of justice would have survived much better if things were reversed, if the courts and police were unfair and the church leaders would have handled things responsibly. Even though the police and courts take actions that have real consequences in your life. I could have overlooked all of that and found sufficient resolve that the church did the right thing and that the police and courts were just in-error. But that is not what happened. One night on my mission, I got up to get a drink of water. When I turned on the kitchen lights, there must have been two dozen cockroaches in the middle of the kitchen floor. As soon as the light went on, they all quickly scurried into places where I couldn't see them. A few seconds later, you would have never known they were there if not for seeing them briefly when the lights first went on. I thought about that when I saw how the church leaders and church members were telling lies and protecting those lies about this whole situation. They were all scurrying to find dark hiding places. It didn't start with a neighbor having sex on the other side of my bedroom wall. It started with several people who I knew, each making their own individual decisions to better their own positions without regard or empathy for others and like those cockroaches, each one found a hiding place when exposed. I just didn't know the rules of the game well enough to know in advance how to asses my risk going in to the relationship, nor to know how to respond when things went bad because others chose to act exploitively. We live and learn. I can't call anyone in the church a brother or sister anymore simply because they are church members. I certainly don't consider those individuals to be brothers or sisters anymore, whether or not Jesus thinks I should. If Jesus really cares, he can ask why the Bishop chose to help others use him as a false witness to perpetuate lies at the expense of others. I decide for myself, who I consider brothers and sisters to be. It's a much smaller group. But I can trust those who have proven to be my friends over a long period of time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2020 06:20AM by azsteve.

It was just sex. Sheesh.

White space, please.

When you're all done, hit "Preview" and review. Look for what is unnecessary, or you mentioned in a previous post, and reduce. Thanks!

Employing negative space via the space bar and return key would graphically yield positive results.

I love it when discussions like this get started,

I wasn’t trying to cause trouble. Promise.

It was a good question.

Hi everyone,

I did not serve on a mission. I got converted when I was in my twenties, and left about one year and a half later. However, I have been studying Mormonism all my life, and I am still fascinated by the church … let's say from a sociological perspective.

First of all, I would like t make a point. I do have the upmost respect for missionaries. Even though some of them feel compelled to leave on a mission, it still requires courage and resilience to give up on fun, studies, friends and to dedicate 100% to preaching the Gospel. Moreover, in certain countries some people are reluctant to accept the Gospel and are extremely biased when it comes to religion. I am originally from France. When I met the missionaries some 23 years ago, they had such a hard time doing their job, oops! Sorry! I meant serving the lord in a country where atheism is skyrocketing. Plus, mormonism was - and still is - considered a cult in France. People would be rude to them, slam the door to their face, insult them. This was not the easy way out for 19 to 21 year old young men.

However, missionaries receive - in my opinion - a poor training. In other words, they are brainwashed in the MTC, and regurgitate what they have been learning by heart. They are not equipped to argue with a scholar or an adult well versed in theology.

What I am about to say may be unfair. please, correct me if I am mistaken. I am under the impression that they put on their best behavior when they are on a mission, and, then have a different attitude when they are back (instead of being a full time missionary). From a convert's perspective, I disappointed when I joined my first ward - well, I have to say it was in France - as I thought that most members would be as warm and understanding as the missionaries. I was wrong.

Thank you, guys!

It is a pleasure to exchange ideas with you.

ldsandatheist.

About half or more of the missionaries are cry-babies who shouldn't be there or do not want to be there. They were pressured or coerced in to going. The other half probably went for the right reasons (more or less) and has to baby sit this first half.

So what happens if a TBM teen tells his family that he does not want to go on a mission, and tries to make their life miserable until they oblige?

Pretty much what you'd expect when a person pretty much 100% dependent on his parents is forced to pretend to agree with the parents: many of them 'get called' to be missionaries and either struggle to get by or crash and burn. Neither outcome is useful to the kid, but the parents will milk it for all they can, stunted, immature people being what they are.


As an aside, when I was a young teen, I used to day dream about "being called" to go on a mission. I had this idea that I'd either get a call or a personal visit from a church big-wig, asking me to go on a mission, as they'd been inspired by ghawd to extend such a calling to me!

So it was a bit of a surprise when the bishop asked me if I was planning on a mission and when I said maybe, he explained how the process goes: he interviews me and if I pass muster, he and I fill out papers and they get submitted to SLC and then the brethren figure out where they need me. You get to mention where you'd like to go, but I've never gotten any feedback on that particular issue. I asked for Scotland. Didn't get it...

I'm sure that at one time missions were strictly voluntary, with no particular emphasis on going v. not going. But then apparently ghawd didn't like young men having that kind of freedom.

Elderolddog in a kilt. . .

Thank you, God, for sparing us all.

Brace yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/e78hqk/pday_used_to_be_dday_diversion_day_we_used_to_be/




ETA: Ya old git, I should have warned you to have smelling salts at hand...but then you probably always do!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2020 08:25PM by elderolddog.

You were one sexy Laminate, EOD, back when you still had your teeth!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2020 08:58PM by Lot's Wife.

ldsandatheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what happens if a TBM teen tells his family
> that he does not want to go on a mission, and
> tries to make their life miserable until they
> oblige?

.........I would give some toes, some fingers, and some teeth to be able to go back and at that opportune time tell my (FUCKING ASSHOLE) Mormon enforcement agent male parent that I was thinking about getting married instead of going on a mission ......you know, just like that FUCKING ASS HOLE DID instead of going on a mission for his beloved MORmON church..... and then thought that he would make up for it by having all of his son's serve

I hope it cut through him like a dull red hot chain saw when I finally quit his stupid church later on

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About half or more of the missionaries are
> cry-babies who shouldn't be there or do not want
> to be there.

and they are ones who get scholarships to BYU post mission

> They were pressured or coerced in to
> going. The other half probably went for the right
> reasons (more or less) and has to baby sit this
> first half.

exactly right, and that is exactly why a FOOL time MORmON mission is such fitting punishment for anyone stupid to go and stay on one, and I am talking about myself too, just like being a MORmON member is such fitting punishment for anyone stupid enough to be in the SHIT HOLE MORmON cult and stay there.

zap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2020 06:54PM by Lot's Wife.

I heard several stories where early church leaders would call married men on missions so they could steal their wives while the guy was away on his mission. These days, the mission is just an opportunity for the church to brainwash the missionary for a few years.

srichardbellrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do RM’s and non RM’s have different
> experiences in this regard? What about the
> difference between Elder and Sister Missionaries?
> When Sisters serve it does not enhance their
> probability of serving in Priesthood Leadership
> positions, so is the adult identity of a Sister RM
> less tied up in the Church than an Elder RM, and
> so is their exit from the Church likewise
> different??
> Just thinking out loud for the moment…I'd be
> interested to hear your thoughts.

LDS inc is counting on the fact that leaving their cult is difficult ......but a person can always do what I did -stay in anyway until a person gets so fed up and so pissed off that making an exit is huge a relief !!!!

LDS Inc is counting on the fact that it is harder for more vested people -like missionaries to make an exit. That is why the cheap ass blood sucking vipers are so willing to pay for the plane tickets for such a deal,

However, selling MORmONISM also compels a person to SMELL the stench of MORmONISM, some people get more used to it, for some people like me, it's guarantee that I am going to want to get away from it and make an exit.

Women tend to be more tribal and complaint and submissive ........and less analytical than men. once again LDS Inc is counting on that fact, IF you are female and that generality does not fit you, then do not attack me (!!!!!!!), just spend your energy on congratulating yourself for being an exception instead. However, LDS Inc is counting on their FaithFOOL MORmON women to help keep the MORmON men anchored in the MORmON cult over the long run. and that is a fact !!!!!

> Women tend to be more tribal and complaint and
> submissive ........and less analytical than men.
> once again LDS Inc is counting on that fact, IF
> you are female and that generality does not fit
> you, then do not attack me (!!!!!!!), just spend
> your energy on congratulating yourself for being
> an exception instead. However, LDS Inc is
> counting on their FaithFOOL MORmON women to help
> keep the MORmON men anchored in the MORmON cult
> over the long run. and that is a fact !!!!!

What a fool you are. You can congratulate yourself for that.