I don't know where to begin, but I will refrain from offensive language or over the top comments. I just need this board to help me heal right now, because I am suffering inside.

I went over to my parents house tonight, one of my tbm brothers is in town with his wife. My 3 older brothers are highly conservative, right wing, opinionated, judgmental, people. This was the 2nd oldest in the family. I was in the kitchen with the family when all of the sudden, politics broke out and Trump promotion and shaming of democrats. I don't consider myself as liberal, although, I don't follow the orthodox thinkers based on their religious mingling with politics.

Long story short, I left the kitchen to retreat quietly in the living room to watch tv. My brother wouldn't stop. He asked my opinion about stocks and day trading stuff. I gave it. it was benign. Then broke out the conversation of the influence of social media and politics. I simply told my brother to not just trust in what is on tv, because comments offend many in other circles if you just get out there and know those other groups.

Cutting to the chase, It led to him coming downstairs to debate even hard and finger pointing. My point of all to him at this time was that religion and cultural beliefs weigh heavy on peoples voting opinions. Next thing I know, he is giving me shit for believing in anti mormon crap (basic stuff we all know is true about the church's dirty history). He asks me at one point why I think and feel the way I do, where is it coming from. Bad question to ask a guy like me when you are trying to preserve your own belief in J. Smith. I let him have it. It was the brethren, the anointed, the false leaders of truth.

There was no lying in it. It has had a traumatic effect on me and just caused me to spin like a windmill in a hurricane. He then calls me a sneaky person who tried to find a window of opportunity to sneak in some anit mormon propaganda. Again, its not anti mormon I told him, its all coming from church approved sources and yes, it has had a telling impact on my mind for many many years. this led to more screaming, of course the parents jumped in to sooth things down but that didn't work. I tied to let my brother know, amidst his insults, that I loved him and I will be there for him when he starts to see the controversy of the church doctrine. I also said to my family that I wear the badge of courage in this family, I am the most hated person, but I will not deny the truth no matter what it says. My tbm sister in law said, "you only think you where a badge" LOL what an ignorant ass.

At any rate, this was my evening. Envy me one and all. LOL

I feel your pain. I have similar "discussions" with my brother. They end in anger and hurt feelings. It's best not to discuss politics or religion with TBM family members.

Exactly Heartbroken, they just don't stop and they don't respect the boundries. Then they make you out to be the trouble maker when all you are is authentic. I just care of truth, I can't lie to myself. Even if they think I am manipulating them.

They don't get boundaries like at all. The fact they still don't respect me to give me space and leave me alone really bothers me. They never respected me.

I had to move at least a thousand miles away to feel free of my mother. That was before cell phones, and "long distance" phone charges were intolerable to her.

As it happens, today is the 57th anniversary of my father's death. I can remember thinking, in a detached, numb kind of way as the mortuary people took him away, "Now there is nobody between me and Mother. I will have to fight her all by myself."

And I did. In a way, even though she has been dead for quite some time, I still do. Her imperious manner got on my nerves when I was just a toddler, and it never got any better.

Trying to have a rational, fact based, discussion with an irrational person that actively avoids facts, is always a losing proposition.

Amen! But can't walk away when they track you down and corner you. I guess I gotta stand my ground and leave. It's a pride thing, they have to show me that I am still the youngest and stupid in the family.

Amen!

I applaud your efforts to get away from him, and when he continued to accost you, you didn't back down.

Good for you! Poop on him.

Some people just want to fight. I used to try to figure out why my family was hell bent on engaging me in discussions about things they *knew* we disagreed about. I'd say, "Can we not talk about politics or religion? There are so many other things in the world to explore."

Yeesh. After a while (almost ten years), it seems that we're getting better at communicating. We'll see if it lasts.

You did well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2019 09:59PM by Beth.

Thank you Beth

Thank you DNA

Unfortunate, when people are in a cult, they can't be reasoned with. They are inoculated against truth.

And there are a hundred ways for cult members to test the strengths of others belief. And they will first try to pull those drifting away back inline.

When that doesn't work, they attack and diminish the person. It is a way to inoculate those around against your dangerous thoughts. And a way to try and enforce boundaries.

If that doesn't work. You become a dangerous enemy who must be destroyed or your reputation so damaged that you can't inflict damage back to the group.

As my favorite professor said in my masters degree, in a triangle, the only way out of the triangle, is out. Meaning you have to step out of the triangle and remove yourself. The triangle here is church, family who are members, and you.

Before my family knew I was out, but I was thinking dangerous things and some probably gave up some of my confidences. I saw the first two stages I described happening.

I was dropped off of email lists. Invites for future visits that were only halfway planned never materialized. When I visited, it was like I was in quarantine. Nieces and nephews that faught for my attention prior, whispered about me and wouldn't talk to me.

The only way out of that triangle, was out. And I'm no longer part of that family.

You may have a better result. Depending on the quality of people you have as family. But you will have to weather the storm until they give up on you and accept that you can't be pulled back. Your reputation might be savaged enough to make sure that others won't listen to you though. Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2019 10:10PM by DNA.

That triangle is a good way to put it. You have to leave both. The family part of the triangle has been the harder part for me to get away from. Crazy how it feels like you are up against literally two cults. The religion cult and then the family cult.

Warrior71783 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That triangle is a good way to put it. You have
> to leave both. The family part of the triangle
> has been the harder part for me to get away from.
> Crazy how it feels like you are up against
> literally two cults. The religion cult and then
> the family cult.

Many other religions tolerate family members being parts of different churches much better. Mormons seem to be all or nothing.

Mine was damaging enough to leave the family. Blocked them all on fb so that I can post freely, but never mormon stuff, without worrying about their trash talking after reading it.

For myself, it is so much better being an orphan. Than being dismissed and demeaned.

I am trying to move again to a place where my family will not know where i am. I'm done with these clashes and feeling controlled and being the odd man out and being the black sheep because i am the only one in the family to have the guts to resign and say i am done with this garbage that destroys people and splits families. Yes life is hard as hell having to use my brain more than i normally have in the past. My brain was on auto-pilot throughout all the indoctrination. Its all a blur but all i know is that being in or around that operation or people in that operation is hell on earth. Get as far away from that plague as possible is what i think is best for me.

"this led to more screaming"

A good response is to turn their own scriptures against them:

1 Nephi 16:2 (with selective ellipses just like mormons do)

"…I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth… wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center."

This will of course make them lose their s*** but you'll find it oh so gratifying to watch.

Logged Out Today, that is a good idea only if and when they decide to shut up and listen. They don't listen, they hit and run and scream while you respond. it's a joke. The part that made me leave the house was when my sister in law tried to blame me for bringing the spirit of contention in the room. Clearly, my brother was antagonizing everyone in the house. I hate, HATE HATE that double standard. Makes me enraged.

Sorry that this happened to you. This is a classic example of a gaslighting game my therapy group calls "Gotcha". People will use a tangential hot button issue - usually something really polarizing, their own pet issue that they never shut up about, or whatever thing that they know drives you nuts, They will push, and push, follow you through the house, talk at you through a closed door, guilt trip you, goad you, walk right over the dozens of stop signals you give off with body or even verbal language, maybe even play nice for a bit and promise you that they really do want to see your point of view and have a really deep discussion, but they're lying.

So you either take the mean bait and clap back at them, or you take the nice bait, and open up, trying to make a real connection.

Either way, the person pounces...Gotcha! Then they deliver the real payload, all the criticism and hurtful things they've been storing up centered on a whatever it is about you that makes you individual. Whatever choice you've dared to make without asking their almighty permission. They insist that you brought it all on yourself. They conveniently overlook that they're the ones who corralled and coerced you into the situation.

People who play Gotcha are people who are itching to fight, just like the others have said, but they're too cowardly to outright confront you. They have to creep around you sideways, always going for the sucker punch.

I hate that game. Mormons are really good at it. I think that's because the cult gaslights it's members with games of Gotcha all the time. Gotcha on what you thought, I don't know we teach that. Gotcha on tithing, it's never enough. Gotcha on parenting, on your sex life, on church history. Gotcha, you are a terrible unworthy person but as long as you're one of us you're better than everyone who isn't even though you still horribly suck.

I don't play Gotcha anymore because I cut off contact with the person who hurt me most, and with other people that try, once I see we're setting up a Gotcha situation, I just ruin all their pre-attack fun by blowing the charges early. I'll say, "You're in a really sh-- mood. What's your malfunction?" Or, "Could you please stop fiddlef--king around and spit out whatever it is you're trying to say? I have sh-- to do. No? Well then, change the subject, I'm not in the mood."

Actually I only do that about 10% of the time. Mostly I just leave, or hang up the phone.

It was nice of you to tell him you love him and that you'll be there for him if he wakes up about the cult. You really do wear the badge of courage. This situation is not about you, you can't fix it, you didn't start it. TBMs gonna TBM. This cult breaks families. They are missing out on having you be a full part of their lives, and it's their own foolish fault.

On my way out the door, I'd turn and say,


"Hey, I love all you crazy bastards."

I am a exmormon. But I voted for trump, not all exmormon can be put in a single category. I am not a religious person but I. Am very spiritual, I have to spend this week with Tbms. I hate Mormonism with all my heart, but you can not let the Tbms get you down, many of them are lower IQ and need Mormonism to tell them how to think and who to give their money to. They are brainwashed drones, you just have to be mature about it and know that you are doing what's best for you and that you are not a drug addict or alcholic because you are exmo. It will be very hard because this is your family and you do not want them to think this way about you.

That’s awful. Terrible behavior from your brother. I’ve had a several years of therapy and spent a few of those learning to set boundaries. It was soooo hard but I’m an expert now. My family no longer gets to do that to me. I politely say I am not willing to have this conversation. If they continue, I repeat that and add that I will leave if they continue. If they continue I leave. I don’t care what they might say about me after. It’s self preservation first, and teaching people how to treat you second. First is in your control. Second is up to the other person. I highly recommended therapy. The cult really takes over our brains. Need help kicking them out properly.

I want to show my appreciation to those of you who commented or can empathize with my story without comments. You all really help the healing. There are so many I am grateful for going above and beyond, I only wished I could have made it to Thrive. So many pioneers and trail blazers that help us to find healing, Richard Packham, John Dehlin, John Larsen, Zelph on the Shelf etc... Many thanks, you give me sanity in a mad world.

because most of my family is out of the church. They left before I did. My parents were still somewhat believers, but my experiences were one of the big eye openers for my mother. My dad wasn't as into it as my mother. My older sister is still active, but she doesn't believe most of it. Her husband is a believer and likes her to go. She was inactive for a while.

BUT then of course I remembered my daughter. The one and only grandchild/great grandchild who is active mormon. Of course, it had to be my child. My older sister was the only family member in the temple with her when she got married last January other than my aunt and her husband (not MY uncle).

My daughter always liked to catch me sitting here at my desk, which is in the dining room and she could stand in front of the island and have me cornered as I was working and she'd ask me ridiculous questions like things about the book of Abraham or whatever it is and why it bothered me as because she is a history major, then she knows that things often are translated incorrectly. It spiraled into her telling me all the things that are wrong with me. This happened quite often UNTIL this time and I wrote a letter and told her if she didn't like being around me, to STAY AWAY, that many people like me and so I'd prefer to be around them. Then I resigned. She has quit bringing up the church to me and I ignore her tantrums.

If they are so right, why can't they just leave it alone? Do they have something to prove? My daughter told my son that I, me, didn't feel the spirit as strong as she did. Oh, okay. Let's go with that.

Religion is off the table when she and I are in the same room. Her in-laws think I'm wonderful (we've known them for over 30 years) and her husband thinks I'm wonderful as I was supportive of him when she had dumped him some years back and he had me to talk to. So I've found some peace with my daughter, though I'm sure I'll be dead dunked as soon as I'm in the ground.

I hear your venting. Good for you! Courage is as courage does, and facing down such a brother, such an ass in my opinion, does take courage. Well done.