I've read Simon's new book "The Sacred Curse" and appreciate Craig Paxton's thread introducing us to the good news of its publication.

I just finished clicking around, reading and reviewing Simon's new site: https://simonsoutherton.com/

The book is excellent but the site's extra features add some real zing and spice to the background behind the book and Simon's own experience.

The "GA Letters" section is particularly revealing as to how childish and primitive these so-called "inspired" Mormon leaders really are.

The "Reviews" section contains a most impressive review by a real Native American, Forrest Cuch, who has personally met Simon.

I am in hopes that Simon's work spanning more than two decades will continue to enlighten those willing to question the foundation of their Mormon culture, changing that dark heritage into a scientifically "RIGHT and delightsome" culture of inclusivity, respect, and racial integration.

I enthusiastically second cricket's recommendation of "The Sacred Curse."

I had the pleasure of spending a long weekend with both cricket and Simon Southerton (and his better half) last October while I was in Utah for Sam Young's March to End Child Abuse.

Having the opportunity for hours and hours of "off the record" conversation with someone with Simon's credentials and experience is ... well ... a Pearl of Great Price.

Check out Simon's new book ... only $7.50 for the pdf download. (This post might get banned as advertising?) If I don't include the link, maybe it's OK. (Check cricket's post for the link.)

When wooden submarines don’t do it for you, look at the DNA.

Just spent a while at his website. Very interesting story about his own dna, and surprising results that point to undisclosed relationships in his family history.

Simon Southerton was very influential in my life. His story (used to be story #125) was the first thing I ever read that was critical of Mormon beliefs. I read it on the first night I expressed doubts to my husband. He had already printed it out, and underlined the good stuff, ready to share when I was ready :)

For newcomers to the board and the exmo community, Simon Southerton is the go-to expert for DNA analysis, especially as it impacts Mormonism and BoM issues. He used to post here regularly many years ago, but understandably had moved on to other things. His work can be trusted, and is highly recommended.

Not only an expert on DNA but also a class act wielding fact.

Mormons being as afraid of fact as vampires are of sunlight, though, this latest just gives them even more reason to keep the curtains of the mind closed---as that is there only option as there is no reasonable response to the evidence laid out by the DNA explorers. It's tough out there for an apologist.

This book is just more evidence that the book of Mormon does not contain the fullness of any gospel but is certainly full of something.


Are Mormons still doing those tours of "Book of Mormon Lands?"

Wow. Talk about Cultural Appropriation---one of the big No-No's of the last year!

Just looked it up. So many BoM Tours you can take-- each featuring a different Mayan or Aztec ruin! Still time to join the Land of Nephi tour with Izapa in January. Or if you miss that you can still book for Nephi to Zarahemla with Palenque " . . . where we will analyze Kaminaljuyu’s stela 10, an altar that dates to 147 BC and may suggest a transfer of kingship from King Noah to Limhi (see Mosiah 18 & 19)."

THEY HAVE NO SHAME. Lemme tell ya.

Kudos to cricket for pointing us to Simon's most worthy website.

Furthermore, lest I be remiss, I should also like to thank cricket for making arrangements for Simon to address the Arizona Exmos at a gathering hosted at my own humble Mesa abode way back in 2005.

It was truly a night I shan't soon forget.

Godspeed Simon Southerton.

I am an ex-mormon and have been for about 15 to 20 years, and I am also (as of a month ago) an ex-Christian, who really struggles with hell fire. And I still do. When I used to believe the threat of hell was debilitating. To cut a very long story short, over the last, almost 11 years, I have spent a few thousand pounds (I'm from the UK), literally, because it made me so anxious. I even tried admitting myself into a mental hosptial, twice. First time I changed my mind, second time I changed my mind because my daughter was crying. Anyway.

I lurk here, but I am still too anxious to post anything (in case someone reads it, and it destroys their faith - I know that sounds mad, but that's the hold it still has on me - although thinks are now, much better).

I've spent the last two days on here, going through the search facility to try and ease my fears about a particular subject that is worrying me. I still haven't found anything that alleviates my fear, but I have just found Simon Southerton's new website and I have emailed him in the hope he can shed some light on the situation for me. I searched his old website (the blog I think) but found nothing much.

Anyway, I am so thankful this website exists. It has helped me in the past and it was through RfM that I found Dr. Southerton has a new website.

I am hoping to be able to post more on here, and perhaps meet people and make some friends.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2021 11:20AM by seajay.

right now, but I had a LONG faith crisis. From the day my boyfriend told me he is gay when I was 25 (I'm 64 now) and the day I found myself on RfM was about 23 years. I actually ended up with a therapist after my husband left who didn't tell me anything about his beliefs. I assumed he was mormon because he looked like one. I'll have to tell him that one!!! But as I talked to him over the years, I knew he wasn't active mormon just from things I picked up, not from anything he tried to influence me with as he never tried to influence me.

So one day I finally asked and, yes, he is an exmormon. He helped me through so much including my faith crisis. I told him I didn't dare stop wearing garments and I had huge issues about telling anyone my super secret god-given name I got in the temple, even though I was very much of the feeling that it was a CLUE about the temple. So he told me to go to RfM in 2005 and search for posts about garments and the temple. I laughed and I cried. It was such a huge relief to read what I had read. And I've been here ever since.

This board has helped me heal A LOT. I hope someone reads what I post or is watching my life and considering leaving the church. ACtually, an ex-wife of someone gay called me right after she found out he is gay. There is a small group of ex-wives of gays who used to talk a lot and one of the leaders of the group (Carol Lynn Pearson's daughter, Emily) told this woman, "Debi" to call me. It took this woman 9 years to leave the church after she started talking to me. She swore she'd never leave, but her experiences and talking to those of us who were also exes of gays led her out. I'm THRILLED. She is much happier.

Like I said, it took me 23 years and even a temple marriage after I found out he is gay and it threw me into a hell I can't explain. I stopped believing in God then, before I even married him. But we still got married in the temple. We tried to get those leaders out of our lives.

It is such a huge relief when you LET IT ALL GO! My daughter at age 14 was the first one who started telling people her dad is gay. It gave us all permission to come out of the closet and what a relief that was. My daughter is now TBM since age 20. BUT she gives talks and starts with "My mother has a boyfriend and my father has a boyfriend . . . " She loves her father and tries to understand him. She loves her father I think more than she does me and I stuck around while he abandoned us. Anyway, it is so much better on the outside. I have resigned. What a huge burden that lifted.

I need to read Simon's book and check out his website.

I'm very confident that nothing you post will destroy anyone's faith. Every time a mormon shows up, fantasizing about overcoming the lions in their den, they soon learn the truth about lions and sheep. It never turns out well for them, as it rapidly becomes a feeding frenzy and they end up running away.

Dear seajay,

I hope Simon checks in with a response to your concern about Hebrew DNA showing up in Native Americans.

In case not, I will give you a second-best answer. It is true that Hebrew ancestry has been detected in some isolated Native American DNA samples. What the Mormon apologists will NOT tell you is that modern genetics science now has the ability to not only determine the source geography of ancestral DNA, but also the approximate YEAR the source DNA appeared on the scene.

For the detected Hebrew DNA, the time data shows it arrived on the American continents AFTER 1492 when Columbus allegedly discovered America. Hebrew ancestry is not rare at all for Europeans, but it did not show up for Native Americans until after Europeans arrived to commingle with the natives.

I don't have a citation reference handy. Simon can fill in some details ... or if you google it, you might be successful.

Bottom line: Do not worry. The Book of Mormon is a story about people who never existed doing things that never happened.

Your bottom line is a great summary of the whole dog's breakfast of it all.

Yes. It could almost be a catch line at the top of the home page ;-)

Tom (back) in Paris
after 2 weeks' holiday in the foothills of the Cévennes

To all those who I owe emails: I had no internet on holiday, but they will be forthcoming :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2021 02:08AM by Soft Machine.

Wow! I am a little emotional here :) Thank you all so much for the encouragement and positive replies. Thank you!

I contacted Dr. Southerton and let me just say, what a beautiful human being he is! I told him a little of my history, and what I have been going through, and he took the time out to alleviate my fears. Let's just say I have full intentions to read Dr. Southerton's book.

I really do not know what to say! I feel as if I have already found friends here. Thank you so much for your support.

Thank you thank you thank you!

♥

beyondashadow Wrote:
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> It is true that Hebrew ancestry has been detected
> in some isolated Native American DNA samples.
>
> For the detected Hebrew DNA, the time data shows
> it arrived on the American continents AFTER 1492
> when Columbus allegedly discovered America.

Seajay: But there is Haplogroup X which can be traced from the Middle East to pre-Columbian Native American Indians?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2021 05:32AM by seajay.

Welcome, Seajay. You can post whatever you want to. There are both Christians and nonbelievers on this board. Some board members moved on to other faiths entirely, including Judaism and Buddhism. You won't be destroying anyone's faith.

For many years, I considered myself a cultural Christian. Many years ago, I lost belief in the miraculous elements of the New Testament. But I continued to believe that Jesus was perhaps what Buddhists would call a Bodhisattva, a spiritually advanced enlightened being. What broke my shelf in that regard was reading Reza Aslan's book, "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth." The book places Jesus within the context of the time, in which wandering preachers, faith-healers, and exorcists were rather common (Aslan names a number of them.) He states that Jesus had a good reputation in that regard, but so did others. And Aslan makes a convincing case that Jesus was there to help his fellow downtrodden Jews, and really had little to no interest in helping gentiles. He was not the benign "savior" of all mankind that the gospels would like to portray.

Given that, I had to ask myself, why should I have a high regard for (much less follow or worship) someone who had so little regard for me and my kind? Jesus was entitled to serve whomever he wished to, but that doesn't mean that I need to give excess honor to such an individual.

I met Simon. He's a pretty impressive guy.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> I met Simon. He's a pretty impressive guy.

Absolutely.

From the book 'The Sacred Curse'

"...virtually, and most likely, all American peoples living before the arrival of Europeans in 1492 were the descendants of ancient Asian migrants."

"Virtually, and most likely" does not sound definitive; it makes it sound like there could be ancestors from the Middle East (or from other locations of course).

"The maternal and paternal DNA genealogies of Native Americans are almost exclusively tied to Asia."

"The X lineage additionaly occurs in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East"

I don't know, I just thought the DNA situation was 100% water tight. I see terms like virtually, most likely, almost exclusively, and Middle East, and I am no longer so confident.

Am I missing something?

EDIT: Also, I'm a little confused because I read that 'X' is about 8,500 years ago, and 'X2' a few centuries before Columbus. Are X and X2 different?



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2021 06:43AM by seajay.

Until every Lamanite living has been tested and found to have no Tribe of Joseph DNA dating back to BofM time, 100% certainty cannot be claimed.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Until every Lamanite living has been tested and
> found to have no Tribe of Joseph DNA dating back
> to BofM time, 100% certainty cannot be claimed.

I understand. You're right. It's just a bit of a shock to me that's all.

Hi Seajay

what you may need to know about Elder Old Dog is that his tongue is usually to be found lodged firmly in his cheek!

oldpobot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Seajay
>
> what you may need to know about Elder Old Dog is
> that his tongue is usually to be found lodged
> firmly in his cheek!

Oh right, ok, thanks for the heads up :)

While Oldpobot speaks a general truth, in this instance I was passing along a point that Simon has confirmed: you can't declare something 100% until 100% of the testable subjects have been tested.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Until every Lamanite living has been tested and found to have no Tribe of Joseph DNA dating back to BofM time, 100% certainty cannot be claimed.

I'm reminded of Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory, who famously said, "I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested." :o)

| ... 100% certainty cannot be claimed.

I agree ... and not only regarding Lamanite DNA ... but also 100% certainty about EVERYTHING.

One of my personal maxims:

90% of what I know for sure is probably BS.

At the end of the day, I cannot prove beyond any doubt that what I am experiencing right now (typing on a keyboard) is not ... in reality ... happening virtually as the perception of brain tissue floating in a mayonnaise jar with a USB cable stuck into it.

When they hook that tissue up to Bluetooth, it will rock your mason jar! OMG!!

I stopped buying mormon history related / exmo theme books for awhile as I already came to the conclusion it was bogus and I was already out. I'm sure the book will help someone that has this topic on their shelf ready to bust.