I had a very small argument with DW a few months back when I was commenting on Mormons'/BYU's new-found fixation on bare shoulders. I said, "But you wore a sleeveless dress when you were at BYU." She said, "No, I didn't!" and denied it all. We were an item on and off for 5 years, and I remembered that she had two different sleeveless dresses, even if she denies it. So I showed her the pictures here of the BYU homecoming queens (1964, 1965, and 1981, respectively). Then she insisted that one could wear garments under any of these dresses, and I was like, "Wha'??" I got a bit testy, insisting that she was a nutter if she thought any of these girls could have had garments on underneath. Anyway, have a look, if you're not already familiar with this:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSqUDAXCB9HOzlWumJkQiPgSFE_kA%3A1578982477479&sa=1&ei=TVwdXsTvHPXL0PEP6_GkmA0&q=byu+homecoming+queen+images&oq=byu+homecoming+queen+images&gs_l=img.3...219369.225468..225818...2.0..0.45.532.13......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24.-dGD0wWzuzY&ved=0ahUKEwiEyrSNuILnAhX1JTQIHes4CdMQ4dUDCAc&uact=5#imgrc=-Azaqq20U1rdSM:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSqUDAXCB9HOzlWumJkQiPgSFE_kA%3A1578982477479&sa=1&ei=TVwdXsTvHPXL0PEP6_GkmA0&q=byu+homecoming+queen+images&oq=byu+homecoming+queen+images&gs_l=img.3...219369.225468..225818...2.0..0.45.532.13......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24.-dGD0wWzuzY&ved=0ahUKEwiEyrSNuILnAhX1JTQIHes4CdMQ4dUDCAc&uact=5#imgrc=F9bE1T80DfHgxM:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSqUDAXCB9HOzlWumJkQiPgSFE_kA%3A1578982477479&sa=1&ei=TVwdXsTvHPXL0PEP6_GkmA0&q=byu+homecoming+queen+images&oq=byu+homecoming+queen+images&gs_l=img.3...219369.225468..225818...2.0..0.45.532.13......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24.-dGD0wWzuzY&ved=0ahUKEwiEyrSNuILnAhX1JTQIHes4CdMQ4dUDCAc&uact=5#imgrc=ljfu-lxvxvLjUM:


Clearly, the whole slut-shaming and "modesty" talks have got to go away if they want to keep people.

In Morland, it's impossible to go 'too far' to establish the latest modesty or 'worthiness' trend, such a thought just doesn't exist.

I wore sleeveless dresses and blouses all the time at BYU. My father was in the bishopric and my mother was the RS president, and my grandfather was a GA, and they thought my dresses were fine. We had a family portrait, with the GA, and several of us granddaughters wore sleevless dresses. We were told that because we weren't "endowed" with garments, that we didn't have to wear clothes that would cover up graments. We were allowed to wear swim suits, but the two-piece had to cover the navel--why?

Nothing I ever wore was as nasty and obscene as the swim suits we were forced to wear at the BYU Richards PE building swimming pool. You could clearly see the outline of every goose bump. I've already told the story of how we had to wear these suits at a ward swim party, with both boys and girls. We wore our bras underneath, but we were called out of the pool by the sanitation police, who told us that because of sanitation reasons, no underwear was allowed underneath the swim suits. I made it clear that the directive was no underwear under the suits, so we went into the dressing room, and put on our bras and panties OVER the swim suits. Yes, it was still much more modest than bouncing around naked under material thinner than a wet tee shirt. The same rules applied for the guys, and I had never seen a live naked man before that. We were fine with being kicked out of the party altogether.

I noticed one of the girls in the photos had spaghetti straps, and those were not allowed. I got kicked out of a formal dance, for wearing a beautiful dress that was a hand-me-down from the daughter of a GA, of all people. It was strapless, but had thick netting around the shoulders and neckline, but the chaparones said it qualified as "strapless." The chaparone marched out and stopped me, right in the middle of the dance floor, and humiliated me, in front of everyone. It was my very first date with a popular student-body officer, which made it worse. He was nice, and we and our friends left, and went dancing at a local dance place, and had a better time, because the music was livelier, and we could do some dances that were forbidden at BYU. He and I went steady for 2 years.

Sorry to ramble, but those photos brought back memories!

I really remember those swim suits. The men were issued Speedos, if you'll recall. And you could tell if a guy was circumcised or not.

This is very interesting, I have some footage of an old family party from the mid 1950s, a Cache Valley Sunday Dinner, which clearly shows women wearing sleeveless dresses. They were all tbm Mormon and I assume they used safety pins to pin up the garmies. There is also a clip showing skinny dipping children co-ed! Just like the opening of Disney's PolyAnna. It's so offensive!

We'd never see something like that today even among liberals.

Tell us what a "liberal" is.

You see, you were making a good point about Mormonism but then tacked on an unnecessary and irrelevant slap at liberals.

It's frankly people like you who are walking around with your privates hanging out.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's frankly people like you who are walking
> around with your privates hanging out.

Having balls and slapping people with them are two very different things. Using them to inflate a sense of morality seems so much like a psychological ED strategy.

I clearly remember my favorite sleeveless dress from my BYU days because I made it. We wore a ton of sleeveless things. Couldn’t wear spaghetti straps but things that covered most of your shoulder were fine if you didn’t wear garmies. We didn’t need little capped sleeves. And we never heard of people not letting kids wear sleeveless.

A big difference was that in our day, the only single women who wore garmies were RMs and there weren’t many of them. Single women couldn’t be endowed until they were well into middle age and it could be assumed they had no marriage opportunities in the horizon.

I forgot that 2 of my aunts were homecoming queens. I'd have to find the pictures. I wonder what they were wearing. I can't remember.

I had a dress that was sleeveless, but had a jacket. I started wearing it without the jacket to work and to church. That was in about 1980 or so. You should have seen the looks, but I hadn't heard anything about sleeveless. I hadn't been to the temple. Shorts weren't a big deal in our singles ward either for activities. Like playing softball, etc. I dressed my little kids in shorts and sleeveless tops all the time, but now I guess that isn't a good thing.

My mother sewed us and bought us mini skirts. That was when they said our dresses should go to our knees. None of mine did. My mother was over the top modest, so it was just the fashion and she didn't think anything of it.

What about the white shirts? I don't think my "husband" owned a "white" shirt except his temple shirt. All his church shirts at least had colored stripes on them. I'm trying to think what color of shirt he wore to the outside of the temple for temple wedding pictures for my daughter. I'm sure that every guy with us (his boyfriend, my boyfriend, our son) all wore colored shirts.

mormon dress codes.....

Temple security: We've got a 188 in progress at the visitors center, woman with bare shoulders is attempting to enter.

BYU security: I've got a 269 at Heritage Halls, soaking in progress.

Bishop: Request backup! 312 in progress at the sacrament table, deacons shirt is blue, I repeat blue.

Husband: Hey Honey, how about we commit a 277 tonight and sleep without our garments?

I have no trouble remembering a different church; pre 1985 at least. I have pictures from some of the ward campouts that my family participated. Lots of people in shorts above the knees and this isn't about teenagers and little kids.

Swimming?

Yes, everybody went swimming in the lake. No hang-ups on swim suits either.

My ward used to pick pears for the church welfare. Lots of men worked in the orchard, driving tractors, up on ladders and climbing trees. Many were shirtless.

I remember when the church began pushing modesty. I still have my church dance card with the standards (strength of the youth) clearly spelled out. Once the church embraced modesty, they used members to enforce it.

I remember attending my ward's "swim party" in the 1990s and seeing a pool with a couple dozen kids and maybe 3 adults. Adults didn't want to be seen without wearing their garments.

I think that's what changed. The church pushed members to be temple worthy all the time. Before the 1980s, not a lot of people attended the temple unless they were in a church leadership calling.