Have always been fascinated with Hofmann is there a best explanation as to why he won’t spill his guts on everything? Since he’s never getting out, why doesn’t he try and slam the church? I used to have a lot more unanswered questions but I forgot what they were, I must be getting old.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2020 10:58PM by dirtbikr.

Hofmann

      

He signed a non-disclosure agreement with the Church to avoid the death penalty. Church and State collusion.

I’ve talked with several members who live outside of Utah, and none of them ever heard of Hoffman and what he did.

Hoffman was huge news around the time I joined the church. I seriously considered not joining because of his fraudulent behavior.

If he indeed signed a non-disclosure agreement with the Church, that is a jaw-dropping bit of info.

Oh, for God's sake. No, he did not sign a non-disclosure agreement. He plea bargained for a life sentence without parole, instead of the death penalty, if he would plead guilty and not go to trial.

They (the Church and Utah Poohbahs) thought the optics would be really bad if GBH had to take the stand and state his name and occupation for the record.

What exactly would the penalty be if he violated a nondisclosure agreement? They would take back the life sentence and condemn him to death? I don't think the criminal justice system works that way.

"Mr. Hinckley, I'm going to swear you in as a witness; would you raise your arm to the square and put your other hand on the Quad..."
"So, your occupation is Prophet, Seer,and Revelator, and you are direct contact with God Almighty?"

Chicken N. Backpacks LMAO!!!!!!!!! Too funny!

I can see that old dog now, "I don't know that we ever taught that?" Wink Wink

A bunch of Good Ole Douche Bag Bigots

no one here will ever see any LDS prophet on a witness stand, period.

I would prefer them in a sentencing hearing as the defendant.

Here is a nice video about the Salamander Letter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiMdtrXfVZQ

Sandra Tanner and her husband husband were the first who questioned the authenticity of the Salamander Letter.

subeamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sandra Tanner and her husband husband were the
> first who questioned the authenticity of the
> Salamander Letter.

That speaks well of the Tanners, their honesty and prescience. They were the first to really reveal, to the outside world, just how strange and un-Christian LDS really is.

Perhaps Hofman has worked on memoirs or something to be published after his death. One can hope.

subeamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is a nice video about the Salamander Letter.
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiMdtrXfVZQ
>
> Sandra Tanner and her husband husband were the
> first who questioned the authenticity of the
> Salamander Letter.

It was jerald who questioned. Sandra thought it was great and a boon to their ministry and she could not understand why Jerald did not embrace it whole heartedly. Jerald said at the time he felt something was "off" about the whole thing with Mark - all those finds no one else was even sniffing at. He thought it a bit too convenient and when he and Mark were together their was friction over it. Mark expected a booster club with Jerald leading the way - not questioning the reality or honesty of what had been "found".

Tanner was willing to accept the substance of the Salamander Letter but he thought the timing was off. The date on Hofmann's document was a couple of years after Smith had turned his back on the occult.

That says a couple of important things. Jerald knew JS so well that he could tell when dates were off, and he was a man for whom the truth mattered more than anything else including the church's discomfiture.

Under the shadow of LDS propaganda, I always thought the Tanners were shallow, angry, silly people. My heavens, was I wrong. They were what Mormons claim to be.

Not that the Tanners’ work has helped TBMs trapped within the church. They avoid it like vampires avoid garlic.

Even if Hoffman did “spill the beans”, how many TBMs would believe him or even care? He lifted the curtain on the infallibility of church leaders, but sometimes the prophet speaks as a man so as to test the saints. Or God is basically inept, so they’re still playing for Team God even when they screw up. Oh, the joys of being in a cult.

I stated that the Tanners revealed, "to the outside world," just how strange and heretical LDS was. As I stated on another thread, it was Walter Martin ("Kingdom of the Cults") of the Christian Research Institute who took their research and explained the esoteric teachings of LDS to a Christian audience. Before then, Christians knew that Mormonism was wrong, but didn't know exactly how.

Now that the church is positioning itself as mainstream Christian, do you think anyone is buying it? It seems to me one perversion after another of Christ’s teachings come out of TSCC on a regular basis.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now that the church is positioning itself as
> mainstream Christian, do you think anyone is
> buying it? It seems to me one perversion after
> another of Christ’s teachings come out of TSCC
> on a regular basis.


most religious people can (varying) quickly see that ChurchCo is CHURCH FIRST; basic, core Christian values & priorities are AWOL.

WWJD? Never heard of that.

Living a Christ-Like Life? let me check with our prophet on that, I'll get back with U.

makes me wonder what prison 'life' has done with him;

brother of one of my friends was in prison (drugs) for a while, but he's rehabilitated now, drives school bus.
I didn't know him before, but I sense some 'sharp edges' for sure.

I was with you till you said Mormonism is "wrong," which implies there is something else that is "right." But there is no verified historical basis for Christianity in any form--as one would expect for something that is in fact a "faith."

So Mormonism is incompatible with traditional Christianity, yes. Mormonism is abusive and cultlike, sure. But there is no "wrong" unless one has already accepted on faith another tradition that is, in objective terms, equally lacking in demonstrated foundation.

If anyone knows Mark Hofmann's mind it is Charles M Larson. He was one of his guards at the Utah State Prison. He has told about Hofmann's intelligence and his boredom in prison, and playing chess with him. Larson's interviews with Hofmann illuminated some of the techniques used in his forgeries.

"Numismatic-Forgery" https://www.amazon.com/Numismatic-Forgery-Charles-M-Larson

Larson's somewhat antimormon book, "By His Hand Upon Papyrus" caused him to lose his job as a teacher. https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus-Charles-M-Larson

He also wrote a novel, "Destroying Angel", set in Southern Utah with references to blood atonement.https://www.amazon.com/Destroying-Angel-Charles-M-Larson

Twinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Larson's somewhat antimormon book, "By His Hand
> Upon Papyrus" caused him to lose his job as a
> teacher.
> https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus-C
> harles-M-Larson


My brother in law fired him. Great book BTW.

There are a few book-length treatments of the Mark Hofmann affair and I recently finished reading one of them, titled *A Gathering of Saints* by Robert Lindsey.

Apparently Mark Hofmann had become a closet atheist by the time he left on his Mission but put on an outward appearance of a devout, Temple-worthy Mormon through the time he was producing his forgeries.

Hofmann killed two people (Steven Christensen and Kathy Sheets) with bombs he had himself constructed and planted. Although the spouses of these individuals grieved deeply over the loss of their loved ones, they also were comforted by their belief that since they'd been sealed to them in the Temple, they would be with them forever in eternity.

Hofmann was eventually convicted of the murders and sentenced to life in prison. (His Mormon father had wanted him executed by firing squad in order to carry out blood atonement and ensure that Mark would in the end be a part of their eternal family.)

After Hofmann was in prison he was interviewed by an investigator on the case, Michael George. A quote from the book (page 378):

"Hofmann said he had been bewildered by the attention that had been devoted to the murders of Kathy Sheets and Steven Christensen. In words that sent an icy chill through George, he said, 'I don't feel anything for them. My philosophy is that they're dead. They're not suffering. I think life is basically worthless. They could have died just as easily in a car accident.'

"As if wanting to strengthen his argument, he added: 'I don't believe in God. I don't believe in an afterlife. They don't know they're dead.'"

Sounds like Mark Hoffman was a sociopath or psychopath.

THE MORMON MURDERS is a fabulous read

I'd never heard of him before, until a non-member gave me their copy of The Mormon Murders to read.

At the time, because of the way that the author had the Mormon women talking to one another, I thought that wasn't the way an LDS woman would talk, so the author lost credibility for me right away.

I figured that much of it was exaggerated and questioned whether or not it was even real.

with Hofmann for many years who told me that no one is likely to ever get the full story from him. Also that Hofmann's "aloofness" applies to his immediate family members. I'm remaining vague on purpose to prevent any chance of doxing my informant.

One aspect of Hofmann's personality that I have no first or second-hand information on is whether he lies (pun not intended) somewhere on the autism spectrum or not.

I wish Hofmann felt the need to "cleanse his soul" by confessing all in great detail. As well, wishing that scoundrel Hinckley would have confessed all at his deathbed as well.

Part Five of "The Mormon Murders" is titled, "Contending with Lucifer."

First sentence reads, "Now it was the prosecutors' turn to approach Gordon Hinkley."


Hinkley was just barely cleaner than Hofmann.

Hinckley was the most apparently evil church leader I ever saw. I've seen some bad ones, certainly, including a couple that are regularly and roundly condemned on RfM; but they were often running scared of their leaders, which makes them seem slightly less culpable, or working in partial ignorance.

Hinckley, though, was not afraid of any superiors. He knew the truth about church history, and lied. He knew Hofmann might have discovered more truths and cynically silenced him and his works rather than letting in the light of day. Hinckley also dissembled in his Larry King and other interviews and then laughed that he had successfully misled the world. He was the man behind the church's anti-gay campaigns in Hawaii, then in the proclamation on the family, then in the two California initiatives. The only thing he did not know was that some Mormons, some TBMs, actually took their childhood lessons about honesty and integrity seriously and would not go along with his smiling mendacity.

That man was, as I said above, pure evil. He was the embodiment of what the Second Anointing is for; he was Dostoevsky's inquisitor, who would kill Jesus if Jesus got in the way.

I do not think Hinckley was cleaner than Hofmann. He has the blood of any number of gay children on his hands. You don't need to use a gun or a bomb to torture and kill innocent people.

You’re right.

I was reading Graham Greene the other night and came across a passage in which a character is bemoaning the moral effect of wealth and power. As he wrote, wealth transforms the abortionist into an obstetrician and the thief into a board director.

Something like that is at work with Hinckley. Status transforms a sanguinary propagandist into a prophet in whose presence people stand.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something like that is at work with Hinckley.
> Status transforms a sanguinary propagandist into a
> prophet in whose presence people stand.

For something. Not much to look at.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was reading Graham Greene the other night and
> came across a passage in which a character is
> bemoaning the moral effect of wealth and power.
> As he wrote, wealth transforms the abortionist
> into an obstetrician and the thief into a board
> director.
>
> Something like that is at work with Hinckley.


Which of Graham Greene’s books? Sounds fascinating.

It's from Ministry of Fear. I don't know, Kathleen, if you have read much Greene. If not, I'd probably start with The End of the Affair, The Heart of the Matter, or Our Man in Havana. The only ones I don't like are The Man Within and A Gun for Hire, a couple of his earliest and hence least developed. But without doubt, he is one of the 20th century's very best writers and virtually all of his books are enriching on multiple levels.

Ministry of Fear is narrower, a study of a disturbed man in London during the Blitz. It is, in that context, very good and very disturbing.

The passage in question has the protagonist ask help from two young, idealistic refugees from Hitler's Austria. The young man, with ironic paradox given that he still tends to see the best in people, says

"When a thing pays it becomes respectable. The rich abortionist becomes a gynaecologist and the rich thief a bank director. . . Your old-fashioned murderer killed from fear, from hate--or even from love, very seldom for substantial profit. None of that these reasons is quite--respectable. But to murder for position--that's different, because when you've gained the position nobody has a right to criticize the means. Nobody will refuse to meet you if the position's high enough."

That of course describes a lot of early Mormonism, also a lot of modern society and politics. It comes close to the quip attributed to Balzac, "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."

In the instant volume Greene says something else that also applies well to Mormonism, particularly to those who are stuck in the religion because of familial, social, or commercial reasons and lack the courage to leave the faith. In Greene's words,

"Sometimes it is more difficult to make a scene than to die."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2020 05:50PM by Lot's Wife.

Thank you. :)

My pleasure, Kathleen!

Hinckley was buying Hoffman’s forgeries because he thought they were real and painted Joseph Smith in a bad light. What else has the church bought and buried? This is all about keeping a multi-billion dollar enterprise going.

The members are so brainwashed they can’t see the obvious or even if they see it they deny it. The Hinkster felt the need to hide any evidence that went against the official church image of Joseph Smith. Why? Because Hinkley knew Joseph Smith was a faulted man.

I think you are giving him too much credit. Hinckley didn't care whether a document was true or false: what mattered was whether people might view it as false. Recall that this was the period in which the church was confiscating people's ancestors' journals and locking them up so that the inconvenient truths about early church history would not be revealed.

Hinckley was a PR guy. He cared about the church's image and sought to suppress anything that might tarnish that image. He was a very cynical man, capable of suppressing all dangerous truth in Truth Restored, in his public interviews, in the quest for potentially embarrassing documents. Genuine or fraudulent: Hinckley didn't care.

I don't think he was autistic, I think he was a self developed sociopath. He would lie, cheat and sabotage his friends with absolutely no guilt or remorse. He knew Steve C. and his family well, his comments about them being killed not affecting him at all, ring very very true. The guy was really a scary a$$hat. Many of us that knew him did not believe the B of M characters he found with AJ Simonds as a witness were real; he seemed like a total bullshitter all of the time.

Hoffman likely doesn't care about mormondom anymore or slamming the church. He's likely is saddened that he did the crimes and wish that he hadn't so he wouldn't be in jail. Also I think he believes there is something to the story of Joseph Smith, Salamanders, and the old spirit. He probably believes the BOM is true, Even though he fabricated lots of stuff and confused everyone.

He's a fascinating character to say the least.

Hofman sold a lot of forgeries to many others than just the church. Most of these documents had been authenticated by experts before the transactions were completed. These buyers all had, and perhaps still have, vested interests in protecting their reputations and investments. They don't want full disclosure by Hofmann, although I can't see how they might influence him now.

I think Hofmann was a skilled manipulator of human weaknesses as much as he was a genius in creating forgeries. A true psychopath.

"He probably believes the BOM is true.."

Um, no. He has no remorse for killing people. Would you like someone to take your life against your will and then claim you don't care about it because you are dead?

If he believes in the BoM it is believing a Nehor was the good guy.

He confided he didn't believe in the B of M to many of his "friends" before he became famous for church history finds, this includes professors at USU and mission companions. He would do this in "thought experiments" pretending he was an philosophical Einstein. He truly thought he was smarter than anyone else, and whoever he could deceive, they deserved whatever they got for being less than him.

Totally rings true! In the famous photo with Hinckley and the boys, it's easy to see what you're saying about him in his presentation. Of course, I've got 20/20 vision when looking into the past...

Thanks for the input.

I don't think Mark Hofmann has remorse for anything, except for the fact that he is bored and has nothing to do but play chess.

valkyriequeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think Mark Hofmann has remorse for
> anything, except for the fact that he is bored and
> has nothing to do but play chess.

Maybe, like in the old days, they'll put him on a prison softball team which often contended with hot-shot teams from wards in the Valley.

And, possibly, some lightning underhand throw from the guy on the mound will bean him and put him outta his misery.

Well deserved, and devoutly to be wished.

I was acquainted with the Tanner's during the Hofmann years and it was Jerald who openly expressed doubt about Mark's "luck" in finding rare documents over and over. Meanwhile, Sandra openly supported Mark Hofmann.

Around 1984, they printed a "Salt Lake City Messenger" newsletter where Jerald presented his reasons for not believing Mark and Sandra expressed her support of Mark Hofmann.

I tried to find a copy of this newsletter on the Utah Lighthouse website a couple of years ago and it was mysteriously missing from the list.

@ Plaid n Paisley

The June 1985 Salt Lake City Messenger, written before the murders may be the copy you were referring to.

At the time of this edition of Messenger, the letter was being discussed in church and news circles. On page 13, there is this statement:

"EDITORS DIVIDED
Unfortunately, the editors of the Messenger find themselves divided over how to deal with the Salamander letter. We feel that it is best, therefore, to give our readers both viewpoints."

That is followed by a statement from Sandra Tanner that in view of the opinions of the experts who examined the letter it was most likely authentic; a separate much more lengthy statement from Jerald explains how he came to the conclusion that it is a fake.

In an earlier edition of the Messenger, Jan. 1985 page 5, contains a discussion about the possible sources for the content of the letter, notebly, E. D. Howe's book "Mormonism Unvailed".

It seems to me that S.Tanner wanted Mark H to have some undeniable evidence contrary to ChurchCo claims, too bad it didn't happen.

I've never entirely understood Hofmann, specifically why he had to bomb people to achieve his aims. It never seemed to me the actions of a logical mind.

Fraud isn't logical. Just look at Mormonism.

I believe that what made Hofmann tick was his sociopathy. I don't think the point was ever Mormonism. That was just the culture he grew up in and knew most about. It was a convenient area for him to act out his deviant behavior. Had he been Catholic, he might have been fashioning relics of the saints out of deer bone to sell to the Pope.

His sick self had two focuses: Forgery/fraud and bombing. In Mormon Murders, the authors and/or investigators (I forget who said it) labeled him a "closet bomber". I think bombs were to him what fire is to a pyromaniac. He craved the excitement.

He loved deceiving people which gave him a perverse power over others. And what greater thrill than to fool the very person who talks to God.

Twinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Had he been
> Catholic, he might have been fashioning relics of
> the saints out of deer bone to sell to the Pope.

I believe in the small closer historical context of Mormonism he was able to be much more successful. To discount his Mormonism probably discounts much in his psychopathy. I wonder if he would have been what he became in an Internet age?

An interesting and insightful post.

1. It's possible to fool 'God's Elect', defraud them, take $ from the church treasury (member donations, 'sacred funds')

2. ChurchCo has perfected methods of escaping blame / responsibility for their choices & actions; as far as they're concerned, they have an Unlimited GET OUT OF JAIL CARD.

Hoffman is to be released in MAy of 2020 was granted a pardon by the Governor

It looks to be legit and signed by Brigham Young

:-)

LOL damn funny!