I recently went to an LDS-hosted interfaith concert to support my nevermo sister who helps organize it. I posted about it here:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2284003,2284003#msg-2284003

As I said in that previous post, I didn't realize the concert was at the ward building I used to attend until I arrived at the location (it's been a long time and that memory is mercifully dim). The evening was billed as interfaith music & spoken word (a UN World Interfaith Harmony Week event).

As I arrived, I thought the parking lot looked familiar. Then I spied through the window the First Vision painting on the front wall as it always was and thought yup: This is the Place.

When I entered the building, two LDS men immediately approached and asked if I would like a tour. I had to laugh - I had spent three years in that place so wasn’t in need of a tour at all, but I didn’t say that to them. Just shook my head no thanks. It’s a nice building. A stake centre, home of several wards. It’s spacious (great-and-spacious – ha!). Quiet. Co-ordinated décor, though bland. It’s two hallways, some offices, a chapel, the basketball court (aka cultural centre) and a couple of bathrooms. What’s to tour? Why tour? It’s not St. Paul’s Cathedral. A bit strange. Perhaps a ploy to get the chance for you to “ask questions” so they could preach a bit, maybe hand you some literature. So the bait and switch starts immediately upon entry. Come to a concert, walk into a hallway sermon.

I noticed that every chair outside the bishop’s office was full. My stomach clenched. The office where a man previously unknown to me was required by his religion to ask me questions about my sex life as a new convert to his church. And I, a grown woman, felt compelled to answer him. We were embarrassed. (His blush revealed that he was as uncomfortable as I was. Still, we proceeded, as expected by church leadership). (I realized later that on a Saturday night those seats were likely filled by concert-goers and not Mormon supplicants awaiting the bishop’s pleasure or not, as the case may be).

On my way to my seat, I checked out the bulletin board in the hallway where I plied my major calling as bulletin board monitor (although every item pinned up had to be pre-approved by the bishop, even my collection of various pictures of Jesus, to my surprise – what harm, I always wondered, could I do with renderings of Jesus in his travels and doing his ministry. That was before I knew there was Mormon Jesus and non-Mormon Jesus and the only True Jesus was the white-robed, red-coated Mormon one).

There must have been official pictures of Mormon Jesus around on this occasion but I didn’t notice them. The First Vision was front and centre in the entrance. Mormon Jesus not. Or any Jesus. A metaphor, perhaps, for downplaying Jesus and upgrading Joseph within the Mormon Church, at least in my experience. Jesus is just your brother, after all.

About 300 people showed up (including performers and their families). Filled the ‘cultural centre’ (aka basketball court, lol). I don’t think it was especially an LDS audience at all.

Before the concert began, the ‘Master of Ceremonies’/announcer (female, Mormon) introduced the Stake President to my sister (“K”). When the MC said “This is President X”, K said “Oh, is President Y gone?” The MC replied, “No, he’s still there. There are three of them.” (I laughed. K is still just getting used to the hierarchy in Mormondom. I explained to her afterwards that everything is set up in 3’s – a leader and two “counsellors” in every sphere). I didn’t get included in the introductions. Oh well. I didn’t care.

The MC started the evening by informing the audience not to consume coffee, tea or alcohol in the building or to smoke cigarettes indoors or on the grounds. This is due to “the LDS health code” she stated. K expressed irritation to me afterwards as she said it’s a negative way to start an event (No No No) plus most of the people in the room do not smoke or drink due to their own beliefs so the announcement comes across as unnecessarily belittling and tone deaf. I mean, it’s kind of a duh. (Although I don’t blame them for mentioning not to smoke even on the grounds – if there were smokers present they may think that stepping outside would be acceptable, as in most other places. They wouldn’t realize, perhaps, that the injunction applied to the outdoor space as well).

The MC outlined the upcoming program and then instructed the crowd “Do not applaud Holy Scripture” when it is read (i.e. “the spoken word” part of the program). It was a bit confusing as to when to applaud or not as there was “spoken word” that wasn’t scripture and then we did clap. It was surprising to hear a person of one faith referring to another faith’s writings as “holy scripture”. Never would you get a JW, for instance, to utter that sentiment (as they believe all religion is “false” except theirs). Nor, I suspect, would any BAC say that about the Quran, for instance. You could say it’s holy scripture to them. I’m still more than a little surprised that the Mormon Church takes part in an interfaith event from a religious point of view but I can see it if it’s a proselytizing effort.

We started off by singing the first verse of O Canada. I don’t remember ever singing our National Anthem in church before. I was quite surprised. (In the ward I attended they occasionally sang the Star Spangled Banner. No offence but that was a bit strange, first to sing it in church, second that it’s not our own country’s anthem). After that, the MC read out the final verse of O Canada as a prayer to start the evening.

The concert consisted of music and readings by groups including Islam, Hindu, Baha’i, Hare Krishna, Sihk, Lutheran and LDS. There were two contributions from Islamic adherents and one each from the others. LDS had three soloists, two choir numbers (one a Spanish choir and one with the Lutheran choir) and the benediction to close. So - weighted in favour of LDS. Two of the numbers by LDS soloists were listed as “modern Christian” and the song with the Lutheran Choir was listed as “Christian”. I didn’t read or hear the word ‘Mormon’ at all. The last performer, LDS, wore jeans to sing his solo. That’s pretty loosey-goosey for them.

Towards the end of the program, the MC briefly mentioned JS, his vision and his martyrdom. She said that JS was a prophet who was martyred “like most prophets” and that the church’s bicentennial was coming up, celebrating the vision. She also mentioned John Taylor, I think it was, as being the last surviving witness of JS’ martyrdom. I don’t understand why she included that detail – it seems fairly meaningless to a largely non-LDS crowd.

Then an LDS choir performed a number with a soloist, “Joseph’s mother”, singing “my son, my son, I believe him. I believe him” (about his vision, I guess). Didn’t hear mention of hats, rocks, digging, BoM, missionaries, pioneers, treks, polygamy, jail, lighted pens and other Mormon-related elements of their faith. True enough, they had to keep it short. I guess limiting their summary to “the Vision and Joseph Smith” can satisfy interfaith principles and present their theology in a nutshell.

The MC concluded by saying that the evening’s message could be distilled down to “Love God. Love your neighbour.” (Matthew 22, iow). She sounded like she really meant it. Maybe even a bit surprised. (Not all the readings were translated into English; i.e. Hare Krishna, but still you could get a sense of someone’s deep belief and dedication – maybe that would come as a surprise to an LDS member without much outside experience of others’ beliefs and traditions). I can live with that – love, love, love. Too bad Mormon leaders don’t keep it that simple. They have to add on and on. And on.

A Stake President gave the closing prayer. He said that he was impressed by the love and friendship expressed throughout the evening. I (irreverently) counted the number of times the SP said “bless” or “blessings” in his prayer. It was a lot. He seemed nervous.


Regarding interfaith principles, this is the message that the Mormon Church presents to the world:

From “Interfaith Cooperation” (LDS article):

https://canada.lds.org/interfaith-cooperation

“Joseph Smith said “I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves.” (History of the Church, 5:498, from a discourse given on July 9, 1843 in Nauvoo, Illinois)”


Interfaith Relations (LDS Article):

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interfaith

“A respect for the diverse beliefs and unique contributions of all the world’s faiths is one of the hallmarks of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. From the faith's earliest days, Joseph Smith elevated the principle of religious liberty and tolerance: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may” (Articles of Faith 1:11).

“In that same spirit, Church President Thomas S. Monson made a plea during general conference, a semiannual worldwide meeting, for more religious understanding: “I would encourage members of the Church wherever they may be to show kindness and respect for all people everywhere. The world in which we live is filled with diversity. We can and should demonstrate respect toward those whose beliefs differ from ours” (April 2008 General Conference address). Latter-day Saints accept all sincere believers as equals in the pursuit of faith and in the great work of serving humanity.

“Emphasizing God’s love for all people, not just those of one religion, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the First Presidency, the highest governing body of the Church, declared: “We honor and respect sincere souls from all religions, no matter where or when they lived, who have loved God, even without having the fullness of the gospel. We lift our voices in gratitude for their selflessness and courage. We embrace them as brothers and sisters, children of our Heavenly Father. … He hears the prayers of the humble and sincere of every nation, tongue, and people. He grants light to those who seek and honor Him and are willing to obey His commandments” (April 2008 General Conference address).”

----

I never got that message from them – have they changed? Or is it bait and switch? Seems like it. A message of interfaith cooperation and agreement presented outwardly. A different tune played inside their tent?

Bait and switch is by definition dishonest. To me, the Mormon Church puts a veneer of righteousness over their dark, lurking underbelly.

A church shouldn’t have to do that.


K called me later to review the evening. I said I had enjoyed the program but was still wide-eyed at Mormons being involved in interfaith activities. The fact of sending thousands of missionaries out into the world belies the notion that you buy into interfaith principles. Love God/love your neighbour and at that point does it matter which church you worship with? If Mormons really believed in the interfaith creed they wouldn’t need to take teens, and grandparents, away from home, sending them to foreign climes hunting for converts. I asked K why they offer tours. Tours of an ordinary building? My voice getting squeaky as I kept saying it over and over. Who goes to a concert and expects to take a tour of an ordinary building? Weird, it’s just weird. “I find it soulless” K said. “In other churches as well as temples” she went on, “there is a sense of reverence as you walk in. But not there”.

If “love” is your basic working principle (as they indicated with their “Love God, Love your Neighbour” concluding remarks), it doesn’t get so complicated, i.e. with a Mormon bishop intruding into every aspect of your being, including your sex life and your very mind and a myriad of other add-ons to their supposed primary tenet of love. Talking to K, I inadvertently went off on a bit of a diatribe about the Mormons participating in an interfaith gathering when the very essence of their religion belies the spirit of interfaith principles. I included bishop interviews where an adult man routinely asks young teens as well as adults questions about their sex life and their very thoughts. “The bishop asks you about your sex life,” K repeated slowly, as if she was checking her ears. Sometimes we get so used to a thing we lose track of how off base it is. K knows Mormons but she hasn’t been exposed to the underbelly. This is one of my biggest issues with them – whether intentionally or not, they give a different front to the world than the reality of Mormonism.


to be con't



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 10:43PM by Nightingale.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 10:24PM by Nightingale.

I thought I had escaped the evening unscathed. It was just a building. No Mormons present that I had known. I did enjoy the music. I was going to come here and tell you that I’m over it – my Mormon interlude. Recovered. Free. (And I was “only” a convert so should just be able to walk away – right?) But as I spoke to my sister, K, all the negative memories flooded back, even all these years later, over my thoroughly unpleasant Mormon experience. And instead of quietly and easily drifting off to Dreamland I was awake the entire night, my brain churning over all the bad memories and utter weirdness of it all that to date I haven’t been able to even fully explain. What the weirdness is. How it makes me feel. How I couldn’t just walk away. How I got involved in a mysterious, foreign (sorry) religion that is so American-centric (no offence meant, but to the point of the Star Spangled banner being in a “Canadian” hymn book). And the basketball inside the church building! The missionaries I knew were obsessed with it. Always shooting hoops whenever I saw them in the building (except on Sundays, of course). I asked why. They stared at me. A cultural obsession in the cultural centre I guess, lol. In my experience, church was church and basketball was basketball and ne’er the twain shall meet. (Of course, here in Canada we have the Raptors – NBA Champs – so we like b-ball too – but not usually in church).

I’ve discussed much of my Mormon time before but here again are the negatives that still stick in my brain:

1. My Baptism Debacle: When the bishop, who I’d never met before baptism night, accused my married friend who was going to baptize me, just as the ceremony was starting, of having an affair with me – not true in any respect.


2. My PB Controversy: When my favourite scripture (“Men are that they might have joy”) appeared in my patriarchal blessing, seemingly miraculously, single-handedly reinforcing the ‘testimony’ of one of the missionaries, not to mention mine too. It turned out to be a fix. (I found out later that the family of the ward missionary who was teaching me the new member lessons was related to the patriarch. The stake missionary knew my favourite scripture – undoubtedly he passed it along to his relative the patriarch). Also, when some wording that had been important to me on hearing it during the blessing was missing from the written PB that I later received and when I asked about the changes, the Patriarch himself called me (also due to info passed on to him by his relative the ward missionary) and was quite unpleasant – instead of some oracle from God, as I had been led to believe, he turned out to be just a crabby old man and deceitful with it, forcefully insisting that not a single word had been changed. The PB had been played up so much and I did develop a strong belief that it was going to be an amazing spiritual experience. Not.


3. Missionary Abuse:

i. I witnessed episodes of “domestic abuse” between a rigid, overbearing sister missionary and her submissive companion. On asking the MP for help, he fell woefully short, even refusing to at least transfer the offending missionary to get the abused missionary away from her abuser, if not sending the abuser home or at least taking steps to prevent recurrence. The situation was so bad I set up an “underground railway” system, including the ZLs and DLs throughout the entire region in our plans to try and prevent further abuse from occurring, for instance after transfers. This same abused sister missionary became ill (separate from the abuse incident) and again I had to intervene as she was not being treated, taking her to my own GP, who wanted to hospitalize her as she was so sick; she refused due to her mistaken belief that she had to keep “working”. I paid the medical bill and the lab costs – nobody told me the church had insurance.


ii. On another front, the ward mission leader decided that members should no longer feed missionaries. Some didn’t have sufficient money to buy enough food for themselves (life is very expensive in our area). I “discerned” (or rather, overheard them desperately telling their ZL) that some missionaries were very hungry. A few days later, I delivered groceries to their apartment, with the knowledge of the ZL. Those missionaries thought that God had answered their prayers. I regretted unintentionally bolstering their “testimony” by my contributions – just wanted them to have enough to eat. (Kindly, the father of one of the hungry missionaries took me out for lunch once when I visited SLC to thank me for helping his son. I’ve always wondered what he thought of his son going hungry on his mission due to an arbitrary ruling by a whacko WML).


4. Weirdness:

i. I wasn’t allowed to take books out of the library – “they’re only for teachers” – this was pre-Google and the closest LDS bookshop was across an international border so it wasn’t as easy then as now to glean information pro and con LDS. I wasn’t looking for con – just wanted to know more about the religion. And yes, this is a step I should have taken first, before the font, not after.


ii. I sought information from the SP – he did lend me a book, although he said “I shouldn’t be doing this” (I don’t remember the book but it was by Joseph Fielding Smith, I think). This was beyond weird to me. How can books written by Mormon leaders be off limits?


iii. I was told off for taking my Primary class outside for a lesson – must stay confined in tiny room with 10 overactive kids – could not be creative, not to mention giving the kids and myself a break. We were about 20 feet from the front door of the church on a patch of lawn. Blasphemy!


iv. The only friend I made after my baptism was an investigator who ended up getting baptized. After that she had an affair with a missionary and they used me, unawares, as an alibi. I only found this out later. Her husband discovered the affair and believed I was in on it, giving her alibis (she often said she was with me when she was with her missionary instead, unbeknownst to me). Many of the missionaries knew about it. Nobody told me while it was going on as they knew I wouldn’t be complicit. I felt betrayed by everyone, her as my only friend in the ward, and the missionaries I thought I knew and whom I liked, but it turned out they lied to me.


v. The same WML who imposed hunger on the missionaries conducted investigator classes, which I attended. One day he related a tale about seeing Jesus at the 7-11, dressed all in green, with green hair. The smart investigator in the group never returned to another one of his classes. I should have followed her lead. Regretfully, I just thought it was a joke, or a strange guy (but why was he allowed to teach in the church?).


vi. I found that many Mormons have a peculiar relationship with “truth”, for instance missionaries apparently being taught that it’s OK to lie to try and convert people – I saw that in action – unfortunately, I felt that I needed to stay silent as it “isn’t my business”. This included being present when a prospective convert (the same woman as above who ended up having the affair) clarified with the missionaries the (supposed?) Mormon doctrine that she would be “reunited” with her two “babies” that she had aborted, for whom she then grieved. Even with my limited comprehension of Mormon doctrine at the time myself, that didn’t make sense. (I was sure they had told me that such “spirits” would be “reassigned” to other families. There is also the question – not to raise a hot button issue too prominently for our purposes here – of whether a recently fertilized egg is a “baby”). I visibly startled at their responses when this topic came up with her in one of their teaching sessions and I started to query the information they were giving her when the DL, the senior missionary in the discussion group, locked eyes with me and shook his head. To my regret, and shame, I stifled my comments/queries because I didn’t want to “mess up” their interaction with her and the potential baptism. She was very up front that she was only getting baptized so she could be with those “children” in the afterlife. To the missionaries, it seemed to me upon reflection, after my own baptism and before hers, any way to get someone to commit and follow through to baptism is an OK method to adopt, whatever you have to say, whatever you have to do. Manipulating a person’s emotions to get them into a font is a most dishonest way to proceed. The best way to increase the retention rate of any given religious group is to have fully informed new members, you’d think. Maybe you’d have slower growth but the adherents would stick better. Do you wonder if LDS church leaders ever query why they have a retention problem?


vii. On a trip to SLC, when exiting the temple grounds I saw a sign in the lawn with the instruction not to feed “beggars”, by order of the prophet, iirc. I was walking along to the mall when a man approached and asked me for a few dollars. I shook my head and kept walking. He asked again, pleading “Please”. Again, I kept walking. He was tall, pleasant-looking, clean, nice suit. How could he possibly need to ask on the street for money, I wondered. But he looked and sounded desperate. Still, the prophet’s injunction stopped me from helping him out (I know it’s not always a good idea to respond to such requests but he didn’t seem like a threat, just like he really had a problem). I left him standing there, hand outstretched, looking at me piteously, as I ran up the stairs to the Holy Mall. I wish I would have just used my own judgement, not reflexively obeying a sign in the grass.


viii. As I’ve mentioned before, at one point I was sent by the bishop to the church psychologist, because I had questions, not because I had expressed emotional problems or requested counselling or “diagnosis”. Apparently, posing questions is a sign of a mental defect. This was profoundly weird to me.


However, this experience directly led me out – I left the psychologist’s office in a ward building, deliberately and with glee walking across the church lawn (a big no-no), coming to the sudden realization that I. Could. Just. Leave.

And so I did.

Thanks Bishop.

Thanks Doc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 10:36PM by Nightingale.

> viii. As I’ve mentioned before, at one point I
> was sent by the bishop to the church psychologist,
> because I had questions, not because I had
> expressed emotional problems or requested
> counselling or “diagnosis”. Apparently, posing
> questions is a sign of a mental defect. This was
> profoundly weird to me.

This is one of the points at which Mormonism verges on traditional totalitarianism. Doubts will get you thrown in asylums in China, Russia, and Romania, to name a few of the legacy states from 20th century communism.

Some details about the negative experiences:

1. Baptism:

Regarding my baptism: By far, the most hurtful, disappointing, humiliating experience I had in Mormondom was the baptism thing. I slap myself that I didn’t just walk away. It was profoundly abnormal, what happened, and that I went ahead with it and then spent three years in Mormonism feeling like I couldn’t leave because I had “made a commitment”. I felt so extremely humiliated after being accused of having an affair with my married Mormon friend three minutes before I was due to be baptized. And I was left hanging about alone in the hallway where I could hear the bishop yelling at my friend (“R”) who was going to baptize me. I was dressed in a long white frilly gown and a man I didn’t know came up to me in the lonely hallway, saying “You look like an angel. I’m so excited for this baptism.” Another example of Mormonism looking good on the outside but the reality being different. This member thought All is Well, All is Well, when meanwhile I’m distressed to the point of seriously considering running away (although I was far away from home at R’s distant ward with no ride home, no money, no alternative transportation) and R was getting severely chewed out in a back room, in my hearing, by the overbearing, angry, mistaken bishop.

For whatever reason, after all the yelling, the bishop gave permission for the baptism to proceed. R’s wife, “T”, grabbed me at some point and said “we’re going ahead”, although I insisted that I wanted to go home (they were my ride). But finally, after a long delay, she and I walked into the chapel. The bishop declared, though, that R couldn’t give the talk he had prepared. R did speak but he stumbled and fumbled all over the place – he was completely rattled. (I don’t understand the point of not allowing him to proceed with his prepared talk but letting him go ahead with an impromptu speech that didn’t work out too well. It was obvious there was a big problem). All the missionaries in the district were present (having said that I was so “special” they wanted to see me get baptized). I was literally stunned into silence and walked and acted and felt like a zombie throughout the talk and the baptism. Everyone just went ahead like nothing was wrong. It was bizarre. Insult to injury: My dress floated up as I was dunked and the watcher mishie declared that R had to repeat the dunk. I glared at him, the unfortunate kid, but we repeated the process, as required.

When I finally could bring myself to discuss it with R weeks later, saying how upsetting and embarrassing it had been, he replied “It’s your fault”. “My fault?” I repeated, stunned. “Yes, because you’re choosing to let it bother you”. That was a peculiarly Mormon attitude I often encountered that, again, is completely out of step with the non-Mormon world. R’s wife and I had become friends (I knew him from work) and I lost that friendship too following this very upsetting event. It wasn’t like I had a crowd of Mormon friends and one more or less didn’t matter. I only had this couple and one convert. The rest in my ward I did not find it easy to make friends with. My impression was that everyone was just too busy, with all their kids and non-voluntary callings. To me, many had that deer-in-headlights look.

By contrast, I had loved my baptism as a JW, back when I was a teen. I had a lot of JW friends and they were happy to see me get baptized. Also, I knew all their basic beliefs and I came to share them. I really believed their theology, which prospective converts were required to learn prior to baptism, an order of things that makes sense to me rather than baptize first, ask questions later, or not at all. Unlike with Mormonism, when I didn’t know it – just took things at face value (big mistake) and assumed they were basically Christian – that’s all I saw at first, prior to baptism.

Whatever you think of the WatchTower Society (JWs), my baptism into their flock was deeply meaningful to me. I was 18 years old. Living away from home. Had had traumatic experiences. A JW friend seemed to offer all the answers to the mysteries of the universe to my young unschooled brain and inexperienced self. I had a group of JW friends and felt a deep commitment to the JWs’ principles of good living and general decency. Their basic teaching of Paradise Lost/Paradise Regained made sense to me at the time and I felt happy with them. I had still valued my JW baptism even after I left their organization. I had not gone into it thinking I was getting baptized as a JW, but as a Christian, and it was still significant to me

I felt that this horrible experience with the Mormon baptism was not only embarrassing and unpleasant, but much worse, it had wiped out my JW baptism. So they took away my good baptism, swamping it, obliterating it, replacing it with their awful Mormon one and I felt crushed (because at the time, it was all so very important to me).

They also told me after baptism that I had been going to the “wrong” ward (as I attended with my friends R & T at their ward). They said I now had to go to the proper ward, close to my home. Nobody had mentioned this previously. I had no clue that you couldn’t choose which chapel you went to. I solved the issues of rotten baptism/wrong ward by just not going back at all – at first.

I did stay in touch with the missionaries I knew. A few weeks later I was taking a few of them to a Christmas concert at a Pentecostal church (for which they needed special permission from the MP – amazingly, he said OK). I finally told the DL what had occurred in the background at my baptism, trying to explain my “peculiar” behaviour since then (not attending church was the big one). The DL apologized “on behalf of the church”. What good did that do, I wondered. He was just a kid.

Six weeks passed with me not attending. Then missionaries I knew called on me, bringing other missionaries from my area, saying they would go with me to my new ward. Feeling compelled due to the reality of having been baptized, I finally went to the new place. I met the bishop, who was a convert. He told me that he completely understood my reaction. He explained that he and my friend R were friends and R had told him what happened. He too apologized and it gently lulled me into starting to attend at his ward, where I stayed, and struggled, for three years. (Silly me).


2. Mormon Marriage:

My distress over the baptism was compounded when one of the missionaries said to me soon after the baptism “Now it’s your job to get married”. “What,” I squeaked. Nobody had mentioned that at all prior to baptism. And who refers to getting married as a “job”? Message: You’re not good enough as you are. You have to be just like us.

Then the fix was in to get me married off. There was one single male around my own age in the entire ward. His mother became very friendly towards me and kept inviting me over for dinner (I didn’t know at first that she was this guy’s mother). I went, as I took the invitations at face value. I thought she was just a lady in the ward trying to be friendly. I was surprised that every time I went her grown son was also there. (I’m slow that way!) One night a teen walked into the dining room - I knew her as the daughter of my VT and she was her mom’s VT companion. She called out “Hi, Dad” to my hostess’ son at the dining table. I felt very disoriented – why is she calling him dad? Then they explained to me that he was the (newly) ex-husband of my VT. I was shocked. Every meet with my VT she would cry and tell me of her distress over her marriage break-up. She wasn’t over it yet as it was still a recent event. So, knowing she was my VT, they tried to pair me up with her ex- and didn’t tell me who he was? Either the pairing-up attempt or the fact of who his ex was.

I felt so confused at first, trying to sort out all the relationships, but also upset that they would be so insensitive on so many counts. I had zero interest in him in the first place but that was reinforced when I found out that he was wife-hunting already before his divorce was even finalized. And the Mormon thing that anybody will do – just take two random single people and stick them together and there’s a marriage – that’s awkward and just plain weird. I liked his mother but I never went over there again. It’s distasteful to discover that there’s an underlying motive when you had thought you were being invited for your company. And that he was actively looking for another wife while his wife from whom he was not yet divorced was crying over him (as I knew from our VT sessions). That was the end of the match-making. Thank God.

All of it, what is detailed above, and all the rest that I experienced in three years inside the belly, was just plain weird to me. But I felt trapped (“you made a commitment”) and leaving was the absolute last resort, I thought, but finally, mercifully, I got to that place where I could go. Courtesy of the unhelpful psychologist that the bishop had sent me to, eating his evening meal all through our session and saying to me after I tried to explain my questions and difficulties inside the church, “We’re not working from a position of strength here”. Good diagnosis, doc, and thanks for “inspiring” me to just walk away, literally. I never went back to church again after my one and only session with yet another rude and unpleasant Mormon, who was angry merely because I had questions. (And so many times missionaries would tell me that all my questions would be answered after baptism). I’m the dope though, bottom line, who shelved my queries and fell for the pressure to get baptized first, informed second. But the informing part fell far short – part of their schtick I guess. Another promise broken – you’ll discover all you need to know at the right time. Yeah – not so much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 10:56PM by Nightingale.

After taking in the concert at my old Mormon ward building, the above tsunami of memories struck me.

I cried.

Spent a sleepless night.

Sure. My fault. I took the leap into the font without due diligence. You would think that after having been a JW, which turned out to be not as billed as well, just like Mormonism, I would have known better. There are a lot of similarities – maybe the familiar lulled me. Maybe that was part of the snare. Mea culpa.

I’ve never been much of a cryer (even inside Mormonism – The Crying Religion, lol) but that’s changed since my beloved mom passed away unexpectedly recently. I didn’t get time to say good-bye. It would have been brutal to have to do it but it’s haunting me that I didn’t get the chance. At least I can be happy that my mom’s not in Mormon heaven. She wouldn’t have liked it there. Her older sister followed her just a few months later, right at Christmas time, also unexpectedly. So now all four loving sisters are reunited, I like to think in Irish heaven, having a raucous knees-up (jig) and a glug of my granddad’s favourite whisky (Glenfiddich). Thankfully, my aunt had just called me (transatlantic) a few weeks before she passed away. She always called me “Nighty dear” in her cheery way and it was like a big warm hug. I can still hear her saying, in her musical voice, “I’ll call you again soon, darling, toodle-oo”, but that was all she wrote – the last call ever. Mom often said to me “You’re so beautiful” and I would laugh, because in my dreams would that be true, but lovely of her to say. Would that everyone would have a mom who saw only the good. My mom and her three sisters were brought up Irish Catholic in “the old country” (UK). Mom did us the great favour of not inculcating us with any one religious tradition. (So all my angst in that regard has been entirely self-induced). It’s hard to be without two such loving champions of me in my life, my mom and my last surviving aunt. And both leaving us at nearly the same time.

I can understand why people want to believe in a literal heaven. It’s hard to visualize it myself. Would be nice though. I would very much look forward to a grand reunion. And far, far away from the Mormon “heaven” of eternal progression.

At the interfaith concert with my sister at the Mormon stake centre, the Lutheran choir, paired with LDS, sang “It’s a Wonderful World” by Louis Armstrong. My mom loved Louis Armstrong. I like the simple sentiment of this song. One line goes: “Friends say ‘How do you do?’ They’re really saying ‘I love you’.” Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. You could leave it at that and be very happy. Too bad people over-complicate things.

Many converts can just walk away, relatively unscathed. Often BICs, otoh, get an uber dose of crazy. I know that many BICs have critical life-changing experiences. But even as a convert you can feel pressured, obligated, by bishops and others insisting that “you made a commitment” (baptism), therefore, can’t leave – that was the single biggest factor that kept me in for three years – I thought things would get better, that I would learn more, that I had to stay as I had chosen to be baptized, which was a promise I must fulfil and keep forever. Mormon leaders can make you think that down is up and up is down. Mind-bending. Crazy-making. Complicated by the fact that it’s self-inflicted wounds. It’s embarrassing. It feels shameful. First, you were stupid enough to fall for the missionary spiel, then acceded to the bait and switch, then submitted to being a second-class member (“only” a convert), then turned your back on a sacred promise, then were so un-valued that they don’t even come after you when you leave (for which you should feel grateful but instead it reinforces your lack of worth to them, like they don’t care that you left because you were so much trouble, or useless, valueless. It also reinforces the thought that all they care about is getting baptisms – don’t care about you as a person at all).

What kind of a church draws you in with a smile and then oppresses you with obligation and misery? What kind of a church repeatedly screws up in major ways that harm you personally and spiritually and then blames you? What kind of church pressures its people to perform in specific ways and shames them if they don’t? What kind of church claims to embrace interfaith principles but secretly seeks to proselytize? What kind of church scorns its BICs if they don’t conform or worse (in the leaders’ eyes), leave? What kind of church engages in bait and switch tactics with its converts? What kind of church ostracizes its members for being different, for being true to themselves, for wanting to make their own choices, for deciding to leave? What kind of church teaches its missionaries (by example and/or passive permission) to “befriend” you and fawn over you and then ignore you before you are dry from the font? What kind of “Christian” church only sees Jesus as a man in white robes and red coat? (No other Jesus will do). And like Christus in SLC. Cold. White. Marble. Unbending, unmoving, unyielding, unloving. Maybe instead he’s that tall guy in a suit, living, breathing, desperate for a cup of joe. A metaphor.

I realize that the issues that arose for me during my time in the church are minimal in number and far less mind-bending than the daily inculcation, manipulation, suppression and oppression experienced by BICs and long-term converts. Especially for those who grew up with parents who were drunk on it, or insane with it, or both.

I learned, through (much) trial and error, not to go to church with friends. Not saying a quick “no thanks” to friends is how I ended up a JW and then a Mormon, with a BAC interlude in between. Now my affiliation with church is mostly for the purpose of community work in which I’m involved. When a BAC friend asked me recently which church I’m going to and I named it his immediate response was “But they’ve lost the spirit of God” (due in part, he thinks, to their positive outlook on the LGBTQ community). That’s the kind of belief I just can’t get behind or even understand or tolerate any more. I finally, thankfully, happily have reached the conclusion that there’s nothing “wrong” with me, as multiple church communities have indicated over the years. It’s just that at heart I have never been a fundamentalist but it took me a long time to realize that was the problem – my friends tended to be and I just kept saying yes to all the invites to their respective churches, where I never fit in.

I bought a children’s book recently that features a boy, a mole, a fox and a horse (by Charlie Mackesy). The boy muses “I wonder if there is a school of unlearning”. (Useful if so!)

The boy says “Sometimes I worry you’ll all realise I’m ordinary”. “Love doesn’t need you to be extraordinary” said the mole.

“Sometimes”, says the horse, “just getting up and carrying on is brave and magnificent”. “So you know all about me?” asked the boy. “Yes,” said the horse. “And you still love me?” “We love you all the more.”

“What’s your best discovery?” asked the mole. “That I’m enough as I am,” said the boy. “I’ve realized why we are here” whispered the boy. “To love,” said the boy. “And be loved,” said the horse.

“Do you have any other advice?” asked the boy. “Don’t measure how valuable you are by the way you are treated,” said the horse. “Always remember you matter, you’re important and you are loved, and you bring to this world things no-one else can.”


My kind of book.


Going back to the old ward was surprisingly fraught. Could have sworn I was “recovered” or even that I didn’t need recovery.

Why can’t they teach the simple message they supposedly subscribe to, without all the add-ons? Why can’t they let you attend on Sunday if you want and that’s that? Why do they impose themselves on your life, ask you private, personal questions, govern your behaviour, plan your future, make you feel less than, sinful, awkward, ashamed, not good enough, needing fixing?

What kind of church.

Indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 10:36PM by Nightingale.

Thank you for this. You have well described the madness and weirdness that is mormonism.

The last part about the book was especially relevant. Mormonism does not treat people that way. Many of us needed to learn that lesson leaving TSCC.

P.S. I have always considered you oneof the kindest posters here.I appreciate your posts very much.

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...the madness and weirdness that is mormonism.

Madness and weirdness. You sum it up pretty well.

I don't usually use the word 'weird' as I don't care for it but I couldn't think of a better word to describe what I was witnessing as well as how I felt in Mormonism, where they could make you feel all topsy-turvy - like down is up, up is down, and that's perfectly normal - according to them.

> Many of us needed to learn that lesson [about love] after
> leaving TSCC.

That is very sad, isn't it?


> P.S. I have always considered you oneof the
> kindest posters here.I appreciate your posts very
> much.

Thank you so much.

Nightingale thank you for telling your story.
I never cease to be amazed how Mormonism, which is such a religion of Don'ts, can cause so many if its members to have such a complete lack of regard for the boundaries and personal space of others.

Shinehah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Mormonism, which is such a religion of Don'ts, can cause so many of its members to have such a complete lack of regard for the boundaries and personal space of others.

Very good observations. First: The 'don'ts. Second: No boundaries.

So very true. They want to know what's inside your head as well as your private personal choices. Total control.

Most unappealing.

This is a fascinating story, Nightingale.

I knew you had once been JW, and then you became Mormon, but I had no idea your experiences (especially to me: an outsider to both religions) were so interesting! They really are!

Thank you for taking the time to write this, because it is a wonderful account of your experiences.

Kudos!

Thank you, Tevai, for your tireless, generous support.

You always have a good word for others.

I hope to meet you someday. (Or at least, to keep reading your warm, helpful, interesting and informed posts here).

There is a reason one of the Mormon mantras is "when the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done." You obviously did too much thinking. Thinking is Satan's tool. God wants you to bow your head and say "yes". <off sarcasm>

I have to congratulate you on being an unusually quick study of Mormonism. A lot of Mormons never figure out what was obvious to you in your short time as a Mormon.

You made me laugh BoJ. Thanks for that!

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You obviously did too much thinking.

Ha. Not too many have ever said that about me - especially in regard to religion. :)


> I have to congratulate you on being an unusually
> quick study of Mormonism.

Three years didn't seem quick to me. But I still remember how good it felt to Just. Leave.

Finally.


>A lot of Mormons never
> figure out what was obvious to you in your short
> time as a Mormon.

I was lucky - didn't have much reason to stay in. No family or friends inside.

I can see why Mormons brought up in it can't see past it. It's amazing to see and hear from so many ex-BICs here. They did figure it out and that takes a lot of thought and courage.


My Mormon interlude didn't totally turn me off religion. I headed straight for a BAC church, again. That was also a mind-bender.

Me and Church - just do not get along. Oh so many years I thought it was all my fault. Finally I see that I just don't fit in - and that's OK.

"She said that JS was a prophet who was martyred 'like most prophets'"

*Most* prophets are martyred? Even generously granting Smith for the sake of discussion, the church is working on a streak of 15 consecutive non-martyred prophets. What amazing luck! And it's a safe bet that Nelson will make 16 straight, seeing as how he was hustled out of Israel at the first rumbling, and currently won't travel anywhere near Venezuela. Maybe she's making a tacit admission that mormon CEOs really aren't prophets…



Dieter sez: "We honor and respect sincere souls from all religions, no matter where or when they lived, who have loved God, even without having the fullness of the gospel."

But now we find out that even the mormon church doesn't have "the fullness of the gospel" because of Russell's "ongoing restoration of the gospel." So confusing to be a mormon in these latter days!

synonymous: Very good point about "most prophets". Hahaha - I never thought of all the other Mormon leaders who are called prophets besides JS.

I didn't really understand "the fullness of the gospel" when I was in. I thought they may be referring to the temple. I went to the temple a few times after baptism, seeing enlightenment, so to speak, but got chased out of various rooms by the matrons so no light there. Members told me that all would be revealed in the Celestial Room. Wrong. We weren't allowed to sit in there, or even linger, and certainly no talking. Once, when in a side room at a temple, talking to one of the missionaries, we got decisively shooed out by one of the women overseers, like we were doing something wrong.

I found no enlightenment in the temple, or outside it. Or at GC, even the one in SLC in the Tabernacle (is that what it's called - I kinda forget after all this time - the building near the temple and the conference centre, which was full and so we got second best - couldn't see the prophet in the flesh). A few of the top guys came to sit on the stage in the Tab(?) but were most unfriendly-looking. I thought maybe they weren't happy that they were down with the plebes and not up with the prophet.

You know how Mormons talk a lot about feelings? I never had good feelings.

If I had been on my own, instead of with people I thought were my friends, I'm positive I would have walked away instead of moving forward to baptism, when all this divine enlightenment was supposed to descend upon me from on high.

Needless to say, that's not how it went.

I was a convert and in for three years, which included a mission. I went all in. Thinking back it’s absolutely surreal. I agree about being second class as a convert. I think that’s why I went on a mission. I wanted to prove myself worthy. I studied hard to prepare and soon realized that I knew the scriptures better than many of my BIC fellow missionaries. I didn’t understand them, and had questions about them, but I knew them. In two languages.

As many have said before, I still have nightmares about the mish over 30 years later, both of what happened during it, and fear of being sent back. I was sick and didn’t get care. We were all poor and hungry. The work was exhausting and disheartening. Baptisms were sparse. So it makes sense to me that so many missionaries showed up to your baptism Nightingale. We did that so we could keep going.

I couldn’t wait to go home. During my exit interview with the MP, he cried and all I could do was look at him like he was crazy. That was my most liberating mission moment. I got home and tried to stick with the church completely out of fear. Outer darkness sounded bleak and horrible. But nine months after my mission ended, I finally got the courage to walk away. I still have an irrational fear of damnation, but I no longer believe that if there is an all loving god, he’s the vindictive prick that the COJCOLDS or any other Christian religion worship. In fact I no longer simply believe anything. I accept things that can be proven.

My three years were not pleasant, much like yours. I’m sorry you went through so much. I don’t think we ever fully heal from the deep wounds. From your recent experience, I will stay far away from the seemingly innocuous events my LDS friends (well they think so anyway) invite me to.

celeste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was a convert and in for three years, which
> included a mission. I went all in.

Wow. I can't imagine having gone on a mission as a convert. I spent a lot of time with the missionaries (as I didn't seem able to make friends in the ward) and thought it must be a thoroughly miserable two years of their lives. They had to knuckle under to oppressive leadership and inane rules. One time they called me to help out when a missionary had a bike accident and left half his face on the pavement. He was in incredible pain but wouldn't go to the hospital. I was so worried about infection but also pain and scarring. His face was so beat up it gave me the shivers just looking at him. He refused to let me call for help from the MP or bishop and wouldn't let me take him to a doctor or to ER.

The only thing I could think was that he must have been doing something he shouldn't, like riding at night or on Sunday or something else forbidden and likely to garner him punishment. Imagine being so afraid of your overseers that you have to hide significant injury - how they didn't notice his face over the next few days/weeks I have no clue.

Being punitive rather than approachable and understanding leads to young people coming to harm if they would rather suffer than confide in you or seek your help when they really need it.

The leaders showed no sign to me that they were blessed from above with insight, knowledge or loving hearts.


> As many have said before, I still have nightmares
> about the mish over 30 years later, both of what
> happened during it, and fear of being sent back. I
> was sick and didn’t get care. We were all poor
> and hungry. The work was exhausting and
> disheartening. Baptisms were sparse. So it makes
> sense to me that so many missionaries showed up to
> your baptism Nightingale. We did that so we could
> keep going.

It could be classified as PTSD in many cases. Flashbacks. Nightmares. Exceptionally negative memories that don't fade. It's appalling. You describe exactly what I observed in this mission area - sickness, hunger, exhaustion, depression - and this is a well-off area. That's why I was so shocked that the leadership thought it was OK that the missionaries weren't getting dinners any more and so went hungry - in a place of plenty and we weren't allowed to share. They forced us to contravene their arbitrary and mean rules.

I know that some missionaries felt their testimonies were strengthened, or gained even, by things I did or said and from talks I gave. I regret that very much - that someone would perhaps take heart from something I inadvertently did or said that they interpreted as a sign from above. They asked me quite often to give talks - once at the baptism of two young boys (I was surprised their non-member parents would allow that) and not knowing the boys at all I quoted a few scriptures and made some general remarks. The missionaries told me afterwards how inspiring I had been and how some of my comments hit the mark exactly for the boys and the missionaries. They thought that was miraculous. (In reality, it was purely coincidental).

I know that some of the missionaries used experiences like that to convince themselves that "the church is true".

Other churches speak of the gospel being true, not "the church". Just another weird thing about Mormonism - at least, to those on the outside.


> I finally got the courage to walk away.

Good. I'm so glad. I was fortunate that I didn't have a deep belief in the Mormon God, vengeful or otherwise, or in Outer Darkness and all that. I knew there was another side to things - I'd lived it before Mormonism. I was so happy to finally give up the struggle to stick with it and just, finally, walk away.


>I still have an irrational fear of damnation, but I no longer
> believe that if there is an all loving god, he’s
> the vindictive prick that the COJCOLDS or any
> other Christian religion worship.

Good. Me too - working out that if "God is Love" then he wouldn't be punitive when humans are just being human. In fact, I often used to say in prayer - I am what I am - and you made me! Ha!

Too bad about your "fear of damnation". You refer to it as irrational and that is certainly true. It follows that if there is a god and he is loving, as the scriptures indicate, then he doesn't damn people for eternity because we're not squishing ourselves inside some tiny box dictated by other imperfect beings who likely don't know what the hell they're talking about when they try to expound on so-called scripture.


>In fact I no longer simply believe anything. I accept things
> that can be proven.

Too bad we don't start at this point but it's good to finally reach it.


> My three years were not pleasant, much like yours.
> I’m sorry you went through so much. I don’t
> think we ever fully heal from the deep wounds.

I too am sorry about your three years. I know it's a drop in the bucket compared to what the BICs endure. I've certainly learned much more about Mormonism from reading their accounts through the years. They helped me make sense of it all - I certainly couldn't when I was in it.


> From your recent experience, I will stay far away
> from the seemingly innocuous events my LDS friends
> (well they think so anyway) invite me to.

This is a good idea if you think it keeps you too close. We can't predict, obviously, what may cause a significant flashback or worse. I wouldn't have thought going to a concert would have negatively affected me the way it did. It may have been seeing the veneer painted over Mormonism - that always really bugs me. It could have been that it wasn't just any LDS chapel but the actual one where I attended. I tried to see it as humourous at first - I thought I would give a light-hearted jokey account of my LDS evening. It didn't turn out that way.

I'm not saying I have PTSD or anything close. My life didn't get consumed by Mormonism when I was in it. It was just a series of negative experiences and confusion. I think the ongoing confusion and frustration were quite harmful as they really got to me. Seeking information, that has been promised to you, and then not easily finding it starts to seem pretty creepy.

I'm glad to be out. And glad you found your way out, celeste. As I am so happy for everyone else here that is happily non-mo.

Thanks for your story, Nightingale. It took a lot of courage to return to an organization that fostered so much torment against you.

I can't think of a worst organization to join because so much is deliberately hidden from new members. Realistically, the only people who have a chance of feeling welcomed are those members who have a stronger friendship than with silly unwritten [and unknown] rules of Mormonism culture.

Some of us tried so hard to make the church work, but it failed us. In my experience I had more friends outside of the church than within. I feared becoming too friendly with the non members because the church taught that they would quickly lead me into sin. So I waited for Mormons my age to build friendships that never came.

While there are friendly members in some wards, most of the Mormon culture is very clicky. Members are not happy that missionaries have brought new people into the ward.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't think of a worst organization to join
> because so much is deliberately hidden from new
> members.

Yes, this was one of the worst aspects for me. I was deliberately seeking information - it shouldn't have been so hard to find. Especially as they had promised that all would be revealed after baptism. Then - it wasn't. When I got my first calling - Primary teacher - I told them I can't be a teacher, I don't know anything. I had thought it would make more sense for me to go to the new member classes, then RS sessions after SM, so I could (finally) learn some doctrine. They did relent and let me go to the new member classes but it was only 6 lessons. When those were over, they went back to Chapter 1 and just went through the 6 lessons all over again. Now, seriously, that is weird. And the "lessons" were decidedly short on solid info. One benefit, though, I went on to do the Primary thing and never did go to RS. That is a big reason, I guess, that I didn't make friends. But also, everyone was so busy with kids and callings. There was just no room for another person in their lives. Plus, I think, they had the idea (or the past experience?) that converts are trouble - maybe they have questions, maybe they don't fit in, maybe they have problems - any converts I knew felt the same unfriendliness towards them. Weird for a church that strives to gain converts.


> Some of us tried so hard to make the church work,
> but it failed us.

Yes, and we got blamed.


> While there are friendly members in some wards,
> most of the Mormon culture is very clicky. Members
> are not happy that missionaries have brought new
> people into the ward.

That was my experience, exactly. I didn't know what was wrong. I'd never had trouble making friends before. Now they tell you to stick with them and avoid the world but they don't really want you there. Crazy-making.

Nightingale:

I wish you writing would earn U $$$ (Canadian or U.S.,'eh?) besides our thanks for your time/effort in putting that up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2020 03:49AM by GNPE.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightingale:
>
> I wish you writing would earn U $$$ (Canadian or
> U.S.,'eh?) besides our thanks for your time/effort
> in putting that up.

From your lips to God's ears, GNPE. :)

I wish too.

Maybe I'll try it some day. (I'd love to change jobs).

Thank you so much for sharing your story! It’s amazing how much I can relate to your experiences and conclusions. I’ve never written my story, and probably never will. But I now have your story to remind me of how many of my experiences were not exclusive to me or isolated.

Thank you again for writing your story.

I'd be interested in reading your story, if you feel like telling some or all of it.

I could make a lot of comments about different things you wrote about, but I won't. You said it all about the abusive nature of mormonism, up is down and down is up (is that what you said). It is crazy making. You can't explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it.

It is SO FREEING to be out.

and aunt. After reading to the end, I had so many thoughts on my mind about what you went through and the insanity that is mormonism, that I forgot.

It is so difficult to lose our parents. I lost both of mine 11 years ago 2 months apart. In a way, it was a relief when my dad went as he was so unbearably sad without my mom. My parents both were not in very good health, but they both died suddenly. They were completely lucid and functioning, still driving, etc., and they just left. I talked on the phone with my dad a few hours before he died. My mom was eating dinner when my brother walked in and found her holding the fork and dead.

My boss asked me at the time he father died if it gets easier. I told her, "It just gets different." There are times I really, really need them. I think of them every day, every single day.

It is one of the most difficult things in life and I'm so sorry that you have just had to experience this. Take care of yourself as you need to.

Thanks, cl2: yes, it's exceptionally tough.


cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They were completely lucid and
> functioning, still driving, etc., and they just
> left.

This is how I felt about my mom - she was so vital, so central to our lives and essentially here one minute, gone the next. That is a blessing to her, when you consider the many unappealing options, but a shock and great sadness to us.

"They just left" is how I feel about Mom. She was not feeling great one Friday morning but in her quiet way wasn't indicating any great cause for alarm. I took her to ER (for faster care than with a GP) and helped her get undressed. While she lay back on the stretcher I turned away to put her clothes down on a chair and when I turned back she was unconscious. They had put a bit of pain med in her IV and ended up giving her Narcan as it really knocked her out, unexpectedly. However, she remained lightly unconscious that entire night and all of Saturday. She woke up briefly twice and tried to speak but was too weak. I was so glad I was there so she could see I hadn't left her alone. Then she passed away early on Sunday morning (my birthday). I cannot stop wishing she could have managed to say whatever she was trying to say the twice she woke up. I had expected, and hoped, that she would wake up for my birthday. Instead... Not. It was a shock and entirely unexpected. I can be happy for her that she didn't linger and suffer but so sad for us that we didn't get to keep her here with us for many more years to come. I'm very, most awfully, seemingly irredeemably sad.



> My boss asked me at the time he father died if it
> gets easier. I told her, "It just gets
> different." There are times I really, really need
> them. I think of them every day, every single
> day.

Yes, I think this is how it will go for me. I cannot even describe how central Mom was to our lives and what her love and support meant to me every day. Some days I still can't even believe she isn't here. I wonder how it's possible for the feeling of shock to take so long to dissipate.


> It is one of the most difficult things in life and
> I'm so sorry that you have just had to experience
> this. Take care of yourself as you need to.

I appreciate your kind words, cl2. Thank you so much. You take care too.

Once again Nightingale you have blessed us with a well written, thoughtful and insightful account of your exposure to TSCC. As others have stated, there are many things about your story that deserve comment but several really resonate with me.

I'm sorry about the loss of your mother and your inability to say goodbye. My Mom died a few months ago. She was 90 and in failing health and we both realized the end was coming. I was the only child (there are 6 of us still alive) that lived in her town and hence the many trips for treatment and ER emergencies fell on me as my father is too elderly and could no longer drive. We started to go once a month to locate the best burger in town and I soon realized that in addition to a break from the rest home and my overbearing and ridiculous father she was saying goodbye. It wasn't brutal. It was sublime and now as I deal with my grief I cherish the goodbye time and the strength she imparted to deal with her death. I grieve for you that you didn't get the same chance and extend my heartfelt support for your torment over this issue. I understand.

Your anger is palpable. You are entitled to be angry for all of the reasons that you so eloquently write about. I am not surprised your visit to your old ward building triggered all of the things it did. And you have good insight into how it was for we BICs. As I matured into adulthood and started to recognize how our father had tried to manipulate, brainwash, mold, and beguile us into being good little morgbots my anger was deep and profound. It seethed in me for many years. It is a hard thing to forgive and I still get triggered occasionally and I am 70. How do you ever forgive a parent for that sort of treachery. My situation was further exacerbated by the realization that my father really is mentally ill and those voices he heard and believed were god or jesus talking to him, only compounds my anger that someone, anyone, in our circle of friends and family didn't step in to protect us as kids. They were all in on the con.

One of the freeing things about leaving TSCC at 28 was the realization that I didn't have to put up with the crying any longer.

Finally, I spent more than 40 years practicing law. That career was excellent for helping me understand the depth and breadth of the fraud that is mormonism. They commit both actual and constructive fraud continuously and your story is an excellent example of that.

Hopefully potential converts will come here and see your story and flee before they are conned into joining TSCC.

montanaexmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sorry about the loss of your mother and your
> inability to say goodbye. My Mom died a few
> months ago.

Thank you so much, montanaexmo. I'm sorry about your loss also. No matter the age, when you love someone their absence feels unbearable. I must trust the words of others who assure me it does get "better". So far, not.


> We started to go once a month to locate the best
> burger in town and I soon realized that in
> addition to a break from the rest home ... she was saying
> goodbye. It wasn't brutal. It was sublime and
> now as I deal with my grief I cherish the goodbye
> time and the strength she imparted to deal with
> her death.

This is beautiful, montanaexmo. In the past few months, my older sister and I had gone out with Mom weekly to a local Legion (she loved vets; and my dad had been in the Army). We enjoyed a nice meal and Mom would get up and dance to the local band. It's a lovely memory that she was dancing the Friday night just a week before she went into hospital (although adds to the shock of how fast the end came).

Mom had picked up a GI bug and the ER dr said she needed 48 hrs to let the antibiotics take effect. I translated that into an expectation that she would wake up on the afternoon of my birthday and that would be my birthday gift. She only got 36 hrs. For the longest time after I kept saying "12 more hrs. We just needed 12 more hours".

Bizarrely, I cried because "Mom didn't get me a birthday present". I say 'bizarrely' because we didn't really do gifts any more. I felt like a little kid crying for a present, and like I wasn't really in charge of what I was saying, and certainly I didn't mean it. I guess it was just a way to express my grief in those initial moments.

My younger sister said to me later "Mom did get you a present: The gift of time" (as, like you, I was the one who took Mom to MD appts and ER when necessary in the past couple of years and true enough, it could be time-consuming). I would trade, though, obviously. Less time, more Mom.

She filled me up too, with compliments and appreciation, stockpiling love for me to still feel every day. I administered her eye drops several times each day and she'd say "You must have been a very good nurse - you're so gentle" and she'd credit me for her eyes healing (although of course it was the drops that did their duty). I'd rub some analgesic cream onto her sore arm (she had fallen and broken it) and she'd say "Oh, you're a miracle worker, you've got me so comfortable" (when of course it was the magic of the analgesia). "Your hair is so shiny." "Your eyes are so blue." "You're so beautiful." Every day. When she said "you're so beautiful" I would reply "Quick. Call your eye doctor urgently. The drops aren't working. Your vision's getting worse." And we'd fall over laughing at such silliness. Over and over. Same thing every day. (I think that might be the Irish in us. A lot of Irish humour I've heard is repetitive and the more times you hear it, somehow the funnier it seems). It didn't take much to make us laugh. Another most fond memory of Mom.

I hear that every day, over and over: "You're so beautiful". In fact, I got it inscribed on a Christmas angel ornament so I wouldn't forget how kind she was to me and appreciative and loving and so darn cute.



> Your anger is palpable. You are entitled to be
> angry for all of the reasons that you so
> eloquently write about.

It's funny - I always say I'm not, and never was, angry. I do feel that it was entirely my choice to join up and so it was a self-inflicted injury in that way. However, true enough, it's bait and switch, definitely.

It's hard to describe, although I've long pondered the phenomenon, how with Mormonism they make it all about the church, whereas with other religions (Christian, in my experience) it's all about God. Many of them don't care which denomination you belong to as they accept that you are all Christian.


I'm sorry about your father and your bad experience with Mormonism. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be born in, or to leave as an adult after so much Mormonism throughout one's formative years.

One thing I credit for being able to get out is my father teaching us as kids to always see every side of a situation. I may come to see the right answers late but at least I eventually get there. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to choose to leave a religion that has been such a big part of one's life and by extension interwoven into one's family life and major life lessons as well.


>I spent more than 40 years practicing
> law. That career was excellent for helping me
> understand the depth and breadth of the fraud that
> is mormonism. They commit both actual and
> constructive fraud continuously and your story is
> an excellent example of that.

This is very interesting. If heartbreaking that "fraud" occurs. Yes, I feel they are not honest.


> Hopefully potential converts will come here and
> see your story and flee before they are conned
> into joining TSCC.

Thanks. I hope so too. It is far better not to get baptized. Would that every potential convert would be like the 'investigator' in the ward I went to who heard from the WML about Green Jesus at 7-11 and never went back.


Thanks again, montanaexmo, and everyone on this thread. I appreciate all your comments very much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2020 07:14PM by Nightingale.

It's amazing how so many experiences came flooding back and all the details with them.

Re the sister missionary being abused by her companion (yelled at, threatened, physically intimidated): After I went to the MP's residence to report the abuse I was witnessing, the MP's wife kept the abused missionary there in the mission home with her for a week. I had no way of knowing whether that helped or hurt her more. My impression (which was more of a hope I guess) was that the MP's wife would understand what was happening and nurse the missionary back to health (mind and body) and keep her safe. The missionary never told me how it was staying there (could it have been worse than being with an abusive companion, and being ill, in a grotty apartment?) All I know is the sick sister mish kept repeating "I must have faith, I must have faith, I must have faith", with a glazed look in her eyes, once she got back from her weeks away. She never told me what all really happened with her bad comp or at the mission home. And. The MP didn't take the opportunity when the next transfers came up to remove the sick mishie from her abusive comp but made her stay for another whole month. I took that as a message to her but also to me. I seriously disliked that mean old MP.

It never occurred to me to report this to secular authorities. First, I was trying to give room to the sister missionary to make her own decisions. Second, Mormonism creates an us vs them world and it wasn't top of mind to rat them out to outsiders (kind of like how families try to hide dysfunction from other relatives or authorities, being stuck in protect mode). Especially if the apparent victim isn't willing to disclose. I didn't want to exert my will on her, just like her bad comp did every day, but was trying to give her room to make her own choices.

But I thought/hoped at the time that the response of the MP's wife, to keep the abused missionary with her for a week, while the comp did not stay there, meant they knew something was up and it wasn't good. However, the MP failing to transfer her, or better - sending the abusive one home, came across as him either disbelieving the circumstances or else forcing the abused mishie to obey or submit or persevere or whatever. Very poor leadership shown by him, not to mention demonstrating a total lack of compassion.


I never heard from, or about, these missionaries after I left the church. I don't even know if any of "my missionaries" knew, or know now, that I left. One of the strangest aspects of the Mormon quest for converts, in my experience and that of other converts I knew, is that the missionaries come across as your friends and so interested in you but then after baptism, and their constant transfers, you usually never see or hear from or about them again. I did see some of the missionaries I knew because I travelled to SLC and we stayed in touch at least to that point but not beyond. It's not usually the way a normal friendship works. Just another Mormon thing that makes you frown in puzzlement over how weird things are with them. I would love to know if any of the missionaries I met ended up leaving the church. I keep thinking maybe I will recognize one of them here one day.



Re the missionary who had the affair with my convert friend: He was intellectually challenged in some way. He had to always be in a 3-way companionship. I heard that he had to get special permission to even be sent on a mission. So he ended up having this affair with a convert, surely enabled by his comps, and he got sent home in disgrace - presumably to a lifetime then of shame due to not completing his mission for reasons of "immorality". Very sad. The convert was disfellowshipped. I went with her to her Court of Love but wasn't allowed to go in with her. She was an assertive, mouthy type with a responsible job (and married with two young kids) but appearing alone before the panel of angry men who told her off and then d'd her from her new church totally cowed her.

She said they told her that she was being given a chance to plead her case (as if they were going to duly consider their response after hearing her side of things) but in reality, after she was shamed by discussing personal issues with males she didn't even know, they handed her an envelope with the letter inside informing her officially that she was d'd. "They already knew before I said a word that they were going to disfellowship me" she said to me in apparent disbelief (like: they lied that I was being given a chance to defend myself - with the hope of not being d'd, I guess she was thinking).

I don't know what happened with her and her husband. We did not keep in touch after I left the church - which occurred very soon after this incident which was about the last straw for me anyway.



This same convert, who had a vehicle, took the missionaries on outings far afield from their mission area, at nighttime after they were supposed to be tucked up in their apartments. I didn't know until I incidentally found out a while after the fact. I was shocked as they took such chances, travelling long ways from their assigned locations. They laughed at my reaction. I just couldn't comprehend such double standards, always talking about obedience but in reality being rebellious. I know missionaries are young and inexperienced but it was hard for me to accept the hypocrisy.



Re the abusive sister missionary: She ended up having a relationship with a married convert. She had met him when they were doing the discussions with him. It was totally obvious and in the open. They sat together at GC, close together, with her comp nowhere near. They had happened to sit down right next to me in the very back row. Again, the hypocrisy astounded me. The fervently righteous missionary that constantly hounded her sick companion to go out and find converts (even on P-day, when she would make her leave recreational activities early so they could go back out in "the field") was sitting at GC nestled up with a married man in full view of all the members and leaders, with no companion around, and GC was on the screen and everything is normal, nothing to see here. I got up and moved away from them, feeling like I was in the Twilight Zone. In fact, all of my time in Mormonism felt like that. Losing track of 'normal'. Feeling like you're stuck and can't get out. Looking around wondering why nobody's saying This Isn't NORMAL!


Maybe staying in has something to do with the way we're socialized in general - don't make a fuss, don't criticize, go along to get along, accept that others know better than you so you must be wrong, don't rock the boat, be nice. {{gag}}



Re the Patriarch who did my PH blessing: I went back to his place one time with a new convert ("M") so she could get her PH blessing. Her blessing included that she would be married and give life to many spirit children. This clanged a bit to me but of course I was silent. In conversation after (I think the P's wife gave us tea and biscuits) M mentioned her husband and grown children. The P startled, then asked her how old she was. He did not expect her answer (somewhere in her 40s). She was very short, a bit chubby, and spoke in an excited, squeaky voice. She looked and acted young. I thought the P hadn't looked closely enough, had mistaken her for a young, unmarried girl, and consequently had given her a mistaken blessing. She and her husband had finished having children, definitely. Of course, what he had said in the blessing was not spoken of, then or maybe ever. I never found out if her blessing was altered when she received the written version so as to leave out the part about having many children, lol.

After that, the RS had an event where many of the women dressed up. M was given the role of Mother Goose. She asked me how she looked. Staring at this short little woman with her round sweaty face, all done up in her realistic bird costume, complete with multitudes of feathers, I said "Really like Mother Goose". She was so pleased. I wondered about an adult women's group that would want to infantilize themselves this way and was happy I wasn't really part of RS (being in Primary), to the point I hadn't been assigned a costume to wear. I never did find out the purpose of the evening.



Sometimes as a convert you can feel that there's a point of no return. Such as after my baptism when they said "you can't leave, you made a commitment" but even if they hadn't emphasized that point I leaned that way myself, thinking that some commitments can never be broken. It can take a long time to figure out that it's OK to backtrack in life (or move forward, if you'd rather view it that way). To realize that not much is written in stone (or on rocks in hats) and it's OK to change your mind. In fact, a sign of emotional and mental health is to alter your opinions, viewpoints, choices, preferences, conclusions upon receipt of new information (or further light and knowledge!). One thing that helped me was (finally) coming to view my baptism as a commitment to God, not to the Mormon Church. Being able to separate those two entities loosened their hold on me. Also thinking that no way should church make you so darn miserable. Nor should it be so consistently and intensely WEIRD.


I thought the interfaith concert was interesting and even enjoyable. But no way did I expect the intensity and volume of these flashbacks to my Mormon interlude.

One thing I know for sure: If my sister asks me to go again next year my answer will be a resounding NO WAY thankyouverymuch.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2020 06:17PM by Nightingale.

Thank you NG for your thoughtful response, in which I see the magic of this site and the internet yet again. We have connected on something so profound as the deaths of our mothers and its as if across the miles and distance in a public forum we have communicated in a very basic way. I have no idea where you are or even your identity and yet I felt your support and concern about our common issues and loss. It truly is amazing and I thank you for your empathy and support. And now having heard more of your finals months with your mother I see that you did in fact get to say a sort of goodbye. It was in the caring and attention you gave and the love I'm sure your mother felt. Hopefully that memory will sustain you over the years and ease your burden about not having said an actual, verbal goodbye.

Re the covenants they claimed you made and can never break, here's some unsolicited advice for you and everyone else that reads this (and remember it's worth what you pay for it): The covenants, promises and obligations TSCC claims we made are not enforceable nor binding. They were extracted from all of us based on a failure to disclose all relevant information about what we were agreeing to, the very essence of constructive fraud. Also, there was overwhelming undue influence in convincing us to make those covenants and promises. Undue influence negates a promise. Many of us made covenants and promises while we were minors and that fact alone means they are not enforceable nor binding against us. It's a legal impossibility. Given the massive fraud committed daily by TSCC their position that we are some how bound to a bunch of covenants and obligations is silly nonsense. The psuedo legal scholar Oaks knows all this and his life long position that TSCC can enforce binding covenants and obligations on its members is a powerful demonstration of how nuts the man really is.

montanaexmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you NG for your thoughtful response, in
> which I see the magic of this site and the
> internet yet again. We have connected on
> something so profound as the deaths of our mothers
> and its as if across the miles and distance in a
> public forum we have communicated in a very basic
> way. I have no idea where you are or even your
> identity and yet I felt your support and concern
> about our common issues and loss.

It's amazing, isn't it, when, and how, that happens. One comment here or there and you can feel that you have connected deeply with someone you've never seen and will likely never meet. I've read so many heartbreaking, and heartwarming, accounts here of people's lives, struggles and victories. People's willingness and ability to share their experiences touches and helps others here every day. I marvel at the amazing strength, resilience, talent, good humour and great writing I've seen here over the years. This is the only place I ever talk about my Mormon interlude and even after being in for such a short time, and a good while ago now, I still need to mull things over and process it all. RfMers help with that. Fellow posters can elicit laughter and tears with their wit, insights and strength. The experiences, wisdom and support of those who have gone through similar struggles are amazingly helpful.

I live in B.C. Canada, near Vancouver, not far from the US border. I went to Montana once, with a new RM, driving him home after his mission in this area. I know that is unorthodox. I met his mom and stayed at their place overnight. Then we drove to Arizona to meet up with his best friend, another new RM who had been in my mission area. I remember Montana being flat. Similar to the land where I live (lots of farmland) although we have beautiful mountain views in the distance. Big Sky Country. I love that description of Montana. I know you have mountains too. I went to the temple in Arizona - not through, just to. It was walking distance from where the AZ RM was staying. He was married already, just a few months after his mission. To my surprise, neither RM had any interest, at all, in attending the temple. I still thought it was (supposed to be) the pinnacle of Mormonism and wondered why they didn't go. I was still at the point of believing what they had told me - that something amazing would occur in the Celestial Room - although that was never my experience. (In fact, the matrons hustle you out so fast that you'd miss Jesus if he were sitting there waiting to bless you).


It truly is
> amazing and I thank you for your empathy and
> support.

Back atcha. :)

I wish you well in your path forward. It hasn't been long for you either since your great loss. Obviously, intellectually we all know it's a fact of life that everyone will eventually die but emotionally we still go through the shock and grief of every major bereavement. We have to trust that, true enough, time heals. Excruciatingly slowly though in some cases.


>And now having heard more of your final
> months with your mother I see that you did in fact
> get to say a sort of goodbye. It was in the caring
> and attention you gave and the love I'm sure your
> mother felt. Hopefully that memory will sustain
> you over the years and ease your burden about not
> having said an actual, verbal goodbye.


Your comment above about the time spent with your mom in the last months being your long good-bye really helped me to see that in my own case too. I was focusing on not getting the chance for the "actual, verbal goodbye" but now thinking of the last few months of storing up love and memories is really helping me see it in a more positive light, which helps. I know it would have been brutal to be saying good-bye at the bedside but still it felt wrong that Mom just slipped away. Now I am trying hard to focus on the fact that she was at peace over that Friday-Sunday, just lying there without "heroic measures" (no tubes or codes or surgery) and she went quietly and without fuss, which epitomizes her approach through life.

My older sister and brothers and nephews, thankfully, were able to make it (one sister in the US wasn't able to travel in time) and the hospital staff had kindly given us a big room so it was a bit of a reunion with those we hadn't seen for a while and we ate a take-out supper and had a bit of a "party" there - for once not minding if we woke Mom up with our noise but that wasn't to be. She would have enjoyed knowing that we were yakking and eating and reminiscing together.


The nurse had kindly brought me a stretcher to sleep on over the Saturday night (I sat up all of Friday night). I did sleep for a few hours but then, thankfully, awoke and sat by Mom's bedside again. I was counting the hours ("just need 12 more", for the antibiotics to kick in, hopefully) and truly expecting that Mom would wake up and say happy birthday to me. I played her some of her Irish music that she loved. My older sister had stayed overnight too and we were singing along to the familiar tunes. A little while later both of us happened to turn away for a few seconds at the same time and when we turned back Mom was gone. We missed it and that hurt me deeply. Like I had let her down. I felt like yelling "Wait a minute. I want a do-over." Irrational but heartfelt. It seemed fitting to me, in retrospect, that we had made the noise and had the gathering the night before and that it was Mom's two oldest girls who were with her, quietly, at the end. Some days, my brain still yells "hey, do-over please". This time with a different result altogether. Of course, it doesn't work that way.

My fairly strict kinda old-fashioned English parents didn't say "I love you" out loud to us two older children in our youth. They loosened up considerably with the three younger ones. I don't recall my dad ever saying it to me but when I would visit him at his apartment (he and Mom had separated in their 50s, shockingly to us) he would say "it's wonderful to have YOU here" and I took that as his way of expressing love. Mom had started saying it out loud to me just in the last few months. I'd be sitting reading while she was doing her crossword puzzles (she lived with me) at which she excelled. I was truly hopeless at them. Every once in a while she'd ask for my help and we'd both laugh as my brain just doesn't work that way and I rarely ever understood a clue. If I did for once happen to know an answer she'd say we'll have to write and tell the clue-master his puzzles are too easy and we'd think that was the funniest thing. Silly. But fun. Lately, she'd look up from her puzzle and say "Hey, Nighty". "Yes, Ma", I'd murmur, my head in my book. "I luvs ya" she'd say. "I love you too Mom". And we'd laugh. It took us a long time, too long, to get to the point of saying that out loud to each other. My younger sister travelled up from MN after Mom's passing and stayed with me for a while. When she had returned home I found a note of encouragement she had left me. At the end she wrote "Hey, Nighty. I luvs ya." I'll keep the note forever.

Over the weekend, I ran into the newly retired manager of my favourite hole-in-the-wall bookstore. Funnily enough, at the bookstore! She can't stay away. She had always been brisk and business-like and I wouldn't say I knew her at all. She knew my name only because I ordered a lot of books from there. When we literally bumped into each other in the crowded space of the little shop the first thing she said was "How's your mother?" (Everybody knew and loved Mom. It's a question I've answered countless times all over town, during her life, and still, after). I gave her the news and couldn't help but cry again (which happens more every week now than in the entire rest of my life ever before). She told me that her mom had died too a couple of years ago and that she had been having a very hard time with it to the point that she had to seek professional help as she got very depressed. (Perhaps that contributed to her unexpected early retirement). We had a long chat and that too was helpful, from an entirely unexpected source. She told me about a web site she found, run by an ex-monk, called "Head Space" iirc. It includes meditation which she said has been especially helpful to her. It may not really be my thing but I might look it up and see. I enjoyed talking to her and hope maybe we will connect again.

I haven't told my siblings, at all, how devastated I feel. Trying not to "bother" anybody. So it helps to talk to others. Some days it is a huge effort to keep moving forward (like, making myself function adequately). I am dimly aware that might be a problem but am not ready to ask for help yet. I want to be alone with it, most of the time. But it does help to write about it here. I did ask my sister in MN if she could come back but really it would be difficult for her. She's got a busy job and her family to be with and I couldn't bring myself to tell her how much I really need her here. I thought she might guess from the mere fact that, uncharacteristically, I had called to ask her back right after she had just been here.

Then my last aunt died (Mom's older sister). Then it was Christmas and I had to be jolly for the kids.

So, yeah. Life is tough. And then you die. But it could always be worse - I know that.

Anyway, I appreciate the space here, and your kind words, montanaexmo, and everyone, where I am at this point, uncharacteristically because I'm essentially a private person, working through things.


On a different note, this is interesting and helpful:

> Re the covenants they claimed you made and can
> never break, here's some unsolicited advice for
> you and everyone else that reads this (and
> remember it's worth what you pay for it): The
> covenants, promises and obligations TSCC claims we
> made are not enforceable nor binding. They were
> extracted from all of us based on a failure to
> disclose all relevant information about what we
> were agreeing to, the very essence of constructive
> fraud. Also, there was overwhelming undue
> influence in convincing us to make those covenants
> and promises. Undue influence negates a promise.
> Many of us made covenants and promises while we
> were minors and that fact alone means they are not
> enforceable nor binding against us. It's a legal
> impossibility. Given the massive fraud committed
> daily by TSCC their position that we are some how
> bound to a bunch of covenants and obligations is
> silly nonsense.

It helps, on several levels, to think of this in these legal terms. It helps me to understand it better.

I found it amazing, after the fact, that I, and others, could feel duty-bound to "honour" a contract or covenant or whatever they wanted to call it, that was pure bait-and-switch, because they withheld vital information from potential converts, that they didn't fully explain even after baptism, and yet they expected to hold you to your "commitment" that you didn't know about nor understand.

As I've said, my mo friend and his wife invited me over for dinner and I ended up babysitting quite a bit for them over time. The first time I went I came face to face with the missionaries they had also invited over and that kept happening until at some point I agreed to take the discussions (which turn out not to be actual discussions but flip-charts and bumbling teenagers saying not much). Of course, they pressure you to get baptized - dunk first, questions later, was their abiding message to me. That should be a big clue to run away! I told my friend that I would never get baptized before I had read all the Standard Works and he replied that prospective converts are "not allowed" to read the PoGP because it's "too sacred". When I stood firm that I needed to see it before baptism he relented. I didn't see anything sacred about it, didn't even understand it, and had no clue why they would withhold it (i.e. hide it) from prospects. I don't remember now what it's even about. I did read the BoM or more like just glossed over it. It seemed similar to the OT to me, kind of same old, same old. Stupidly, I didn't notice anything that off-putting about it. They emphasized the temple to me, a lot, and said all would be revealed there. I fell for that. It too was a lie. The only thing revealed was that it's weird, creepy, non-spiritual and boring as hell. My first inkling that I wasn't going to be a dedicated long term member was when I found the temple movie intensely unbelievably b.o.r.i.n.g. and knew that no way could I attend the temple and watch that thing monthly, as the bishop promoted. Spiritually enlightening it ain't.



>The psuedo legal scholar Oaks
> knows all this and his life long position that
> TSCC can enforce binding covenants and obligations
> on its members is a powerful demonstration of how
> nuts the man really is.

Ha. Made me laugh. Yeah, the only thing "binding" is if we believe that their position that "you got baptized", "you made covenants" somehow does impose a contract on us for life. Every time I asked for information or explanations about something all I got was deer-in-headlights looks. What? Like nobody ever asks questions? I just couldn't wrap my head around how weird it all was. Too bad for me that I was so slow to come to that conclusion. I thought for a long time it must be me, too thick to understand, or something. When my convert friend (the one who ended up having the affair with the missionary) and I would sit together in sacrament meeting and whisper "The Emperor has no clothes" to each other and laugh - I should have paid more attention and actually grasped that reality sooner. It's hard to explain why many converts don't get it before baptism or very soon after. They had me thinking there was something wrong with me because I was seeking information. Silly me, though, to be lulled into thinking it was OK to wait for it until after baptism.

If not for making friends with a Mormon through some volunteer work I was doing, I would likely not have ever got involved. I went along as far as I did because it was friends who invited me to dinner but with an ulterior motive I did not discern (I thought it was a coincidence that the missionaries were there every time I was invited over). Mea culpa for walking into it when I should have known better (particularly after my experience with the JWs).

But still. The leaders, at least, promote the bait and switch. And the lack of straightforwardness.


Thanks again m.exmo. I appreciate your kind and helpful words. And the legal part is most helpful too in understanding how Mormonism works and why people get involved and stuck in it. I wish you, and all, well in our respective journeys through whatever challenges we each face.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2020 04:50PM by Nightingale.

I think the church is trying to figure out what it really is. Becoming more of a team player with other church’s started with Gordon B Hinckley. I think the church is hoping to recruit members of other faiths because there are so many church’s closing down and shrinking.