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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 09:31AM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/02/11/byu-condemns-racism/

https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2020/02/11/byu-black-students/

Five panelists kicked off Black History Month by leading a discussion on their experiences as people of color and immigrants at Brigham Young University. As they discussed their lives at the school, audience members anonymously submitted questions for the moderator to ask at the end of the event.

The moderator and people in the audience could read the submissions on a screen as they were posted, but the panelists onstage could not see them. As the offensive statements filled the page on Thursday, some in the audience laughed, according to the Salt Lake Tribune.

Only afterward, when the moderator showed the panelists some of the questions they had not seen, did they realize something was amiss, panelist Tendela Tellas told The Washington Post.

Among the questions:

“Why don’t we have any white people on stage?”

“What is the percentage of African Americans on food stamps?”

“Why do African Americans hate the police? If they would obey the law and do what they say we wouldn’t have this problem."

“How is it to be black? I don’t See color.”

“Why don’t we have a white history month?”

The panelists discovered the comments after the event ended.

“Once I found out,” said Tellas, a sophomore studying sociocultural anthropology, “I was very heartbroken because the stories we as panelists were telling were very personal and very dear to our hearts.”

Several anonymous attendees flooded the event page used to collect questions with comments the university characterized as “racist.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2020 09:32AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 10:59AM

What I always find amazing about these sorts of occurrences is not just the level of racism, but the level of racial resentment. This cold fury that black people get/want all these "special privileges".

In fact, the special privileges trope is an all-purpose response. Remember that gay people wanted special privileges when they lobbied for same-sex marriage, the fact that most people were lobbying for the exact same marriage rights that heterosexual people have always had. Always had unless they were of two different races and lived in a place like Virginia. But I digress.

I used to live in Minneapolis for a while, still have friends there. Recently (last year, year before?) a black man was pulled over in n. Minneapolis. He had a handgun permit, informed the officer that he had a handgun, and got shot and killed while carefully retrieving his registration from the glove box. Had not touched his gun. Your right to keep and bear arms has an asterisk by it if you're black. Just imagine a young black male carrying around a rifle in an open-carry state. That would not end well.

Just two weeks ago, there was a gun rights rally in VA, where 20,000 protestors showed up. They were not allowed to take their guns to the actual protest site, but they came armed for the most part, and left their weapons in their cars.

There was considerable concern about violence, but none occurred. Now just imagine if 20,000 black people planned to attend a gun rights rally and came armed, and the white citizenry knew well in advance that they were coming armed. How do you think that would have gone over?

And as Beth so eloquently pointed out in another thread, the "special privileges" that come with being black are not all they are cracked up to be.

I've been on search committees at a university which is, of course, an EEOC employer, so I had to deal with that office. All it really amounted to was that we had to list the requirements for the position, in writing, before the search began. If we wanted to hire someone who did not meet the qualifications, we would have to explain why, again in writing, and get a waiver from the EEOC person. That was never an issue.

We did have an incident where we were looking for a faculty member to help us start a graduate program, so a research record in our discipline was a requirement. A woman applied for the job, who did have a PhD in a closely related field, but no relevant research record. Notwithstanding, our dean really leaned on me to hire her. I never found out why. He didn't say it was because we needed to hire more women. While it was a heavily male field (computer science), we did have women faculty, as did other departments in the college. He never did give me a clear answer why. To this day I don't know what that was about.

I went to the EEOC person and asked if I had to hire, or even consider this person. She said no. The applicant did not meet the minimum qualifications, and we had applicants who clearly did. In fact, if we did want to hire that person, the EEOC director would need an explanation in writing as to why, and unless there was something really extraordinary in the explanation, she would turn it down. I told that to our dean, and that finally shut him up, The EEOC office gave me cover to not hire a woman who was not qualified for the job. I was troubled and annoyed at getting pressured by the dean to hire someone not qualified, especially when I was not getting an honest answer as to why. It's not like I didn't ask why.

So anyway, don't get me started about so-called special rights. Things like EEOC are put there for a reason, and if used properly, they protect everyone's rights. We had to fight hard to get an extra faculty position to start our grad program, and we were not about to throw it away on someone who could not help us get that program started. EEOC protected us.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 11:54AM

What if the racist comments were just quoting mormon bosses ?

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 05:07PM

I don't see anything out of the ordinary in those questions. The thing is, and every teacher knows, is that you have to be prepared for any kind of question if your dealing with the public. And especially if it's a sensitive subject, expect the worst. But for the college to apologize is silly when they weren't the ones that asked the uncomfortable questions. The world doesn't care about feelings, but facts persuade.

Take for instance the first question "why aren't there more white people on stage?" They could have responded, "because it's black history month and if you don't like it you can leave!"

Then take question #2 “What is the percentage of African Americans on food stamps?” A good response that would silence the heckler could be "I don't know but there sure as hell more whites getting welfare than blacks!"

There's a way to deal with all kinds of bullies and in a forum like this it's probably to get nasty back at them.

There's a response to all these questions

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 05:28PM

>"I don't see anything out of the ordinary in those questions."

Of course you don't.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 05:51PM

But there's also a time and place to ask certain types of questions.

Also, intent matters.

If the intent is to offend, then it's not acceptable. It reinforces discrimination and history of abuse.

If people are asking because they seek information, that's different. The questions cited above come across as being designed to offend. If the questioners did not intend that then at best they are tone-deaf.

Again - time, place, motive, intent, tone.

Question: “Why do African Americans hate the police? If they would obey the law and do what they say we wouldn’t have this problem."

Can you hear/see how clueless (at best) this question is?

Question: “Why don’t we have a white history month?”

This one as well?

Although it's difficult to select the most offensive from an offensive spate of queries that seem fairly obviously meant to give offence.

However, to give people some benefit of the doubt, as I say to my niece (who is so-called mixed-race), if people really don't know, they don't know. But hopefully, some at least truly want to find out and educate themselves a little bit.

And it's not necessarily this or that specific question - it's the ignorance and/or negative or racist attitudes it conveys. And people have had enough. Way more than enough. It perpetuates the entirety of the racist history and ongoing associated issues to the present day.

I remember as a kid asking my mom often why people don't like others because of their skin colour. I just couldn't understand it. I fail to comprehend why a person's skin colour matters so much to some people. Why? Why? Why?

Would you not think they could get over it by now?

Imagine having to deal your entire life with different treatment, at least, if not downright discrimination, merely because of the pigment of your skin. Something that white-skinned people don't ever even have to think about. I don't recall a single day, or experience, in my life where I had to think about my skin colour, much less worry about being discriminated against because of it, or abused, or categorized, or profiled, other than in a positive way that is, if that makes sense. As in "profiled" as OK because I'm white.

Unfortunately, even in a supposed "first world", progressive, "tolerant" country like Canada, where I live, people experience racism.

It was March 2018 before the first black person was featured on Canadian money:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/13/americas/viola-desmond-canadian-currency-trnd/index.html

And so it goes throughout our history. At least passive, if not active, racism defines our society as well.

No wonder people are sick of it. Understatement.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 10:37PM

I look at the questions shown and cringe--some people never really grow up and move beyond their own personal needs and desires. Yet, if such a forum had been held when I was in undergraduate college nearly 40 years ago, I would have been the one thinking about asking them.

One of the biggest problems in U.S. society is how difficult it is for people with different skin pigmentations to become friends, as noted in a recent NPR offering. Even if there is no legal segregation, we are segregating ourselves so that we don't have mixed-race friends. We don't live in "their" neighborhoods, attend "their" schools, and mixed race marriages, while tolerated, are still very much frowned on, especially among the upper echelons of Caucasian society. Add to this mix the history of how Joseph Smith and Brigham Young viewed African-americans (as noted in Mormon Scripture) and you have a brewing culdron of resentment that comes to the surface at debates like the one held at BYU. If only we could force integration and get people of all races, religions, and classes to see that those others that we resent are very much like ourselves, and they are trying their best to make their way in a Caucasian country that really frowns on their efforts.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 13, 2020 10:25AM

People who grew up in mixed race families or neighborhoods or on military bases tend to have more diverse friendships and also relationships.

Early segregation and separation during childhood and adolescence makes having friends or romantic partners of different ethnic groups much more difficult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2020 10:30AM by anybody.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 10:11AM

While I didn't grow up in the military or on a military base, my late father served during the Korean War after the military was integrated after World War II. It was during this conflict that my father met the only African-American that he told me he ever liked--probably because that person was as critical of African-americans as my late father was.

It should also be noted that the man who blew up the Alfred P. Murro Federal building in Oklahoma City back in 1996 was also a member of the military who detested Federal and state support for African-americans, among others.

So, while I believe you are right to argue that there is more acceptance of race-mixing in the military than elsewhere, it is not all-accepting. Also, since the ending of the military draft after the Vietnam war, a lot fewer Americans of all stripes are serving in the U.S. military, meaning that strides in integration within the military affect a lot fewer people.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 02:04PM

Timothy McVeigh is "the man who blew up the Alfred P. Murro Federal building in Oklahoma City back in 199[5]."

His co-conspirators were Terry Nichols, Michael Fortier, and Lori Fortier.

They killed 168 people, 19 of whom were children in the daycare center, and injured over 680 others.

His main motivation was a hatred for the Federal govt after Ruby Ridge and Waco. He was a white supremacist, but that wasn't his main motivation. He wanted to blow up the government. Maybe it's because he washed out of Q course while in the Army.

IOW, he was *not* your average veteran. He was proud of what he did. He was a monster.


TRIGGER WARNING - below is a link to a picture of Baylee Almon who died in the bombing.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/16/17/27A3C45D00000578-0-image-a-46_1429201475008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2020 03:05PM by Beth.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 11:36PM

How is anybody surprised that they'd get asked blatantly racist questions by anonymous students who attend a University named after the most blatant racist, run like a breeding farm by a racist doomsday CULT that still, to this day, publishes blatantly racist, unmistakably white supremacist scriptures that preserve blatantly racist, dehumanizing, 19th Century myths used to justify genocide and the slave trade?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 11, 2020 11:38PM

I'd be shocked to read, "MORmON Crutch condemns ‘racist comments’ aimed at black people, made by their founders."

Or, "Mormon Church condemns ‘racist comments’ in their scriptures, aimed at non-white people."

But no word on any pending condemnation of blatant racism STILL being published.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2020 11:41PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 12:24AM

“Why don’t we have a white history month?”

Morgan Freeman hated black history month, and asked Mike Wallace this same question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh8mUia75k8


His point is that all this focus on race promotes racism, and we should just look at each other as individuals instead of by color.

Since Morgan Freeman is black, to disagree with him would make you a racist, right? That is, if you are white, but not if you are black.

You could say the panel discussion at BYU was racist, in that it attempted to separate us into groups, and some of the questions challenged that, and were in fact, anti-racist.

And since we want to divide ourselves into groups, it is possible that certain groups have greater issues as a whole. So you could question the problems they have.

Of course, bigotry and hate is acceptable if directed in a politically correct manner. You can question the bad behavior of white males all you want. Their bad behavior is because they are evil, while bad behavior in other groups is due to being victims.

But, of course, the politically correct have to keep promoting racism and victimhood, since it makes for good drama and there is a lot of money involved. A lot of books and movies about racism, and many government programs with billions of dollars at stake based on racism.

Here is a good piece on Racism, Inc., and all the hypocrisy and stupidity involved. We love our racism!

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/09/26/racism_inc_120084.html

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 12:50PM

Fluent in both mansplaining and whitesplaining. Who knew? ;)

https://www.guernicamag.com/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 01:03PM

I would have called it victimsplaining. The constant theme in his posts is that there are evil people out there--women and minorities--oppressing him.

Shed a tear for the Free Man, who insists above else that he is unfree.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2020 01:03PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 16, 2020 11:33PM

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/08/the-worlds-worst-support-group/536850/


As they marched through Charlottesville, Virginia, Saturday, the pack of white supremacists chanted “you will not replace us.” Their rallying cry prompted a viral Twitter thread in which the user Julius Goat asked, “Replaced as ... what?”

“I would so love to see these people get all the oppression they insist they receive, just for a year. Just to see,” he wrote.

It may seem puzzling that the racism of these white men—the most powerful group of people in the world—is motivated by a sense that they’ll be wiped away somehow. But according to research on white supremacists, a sense of victimhood is exactly what groups like these use to grow their cause.

In a 2000 article, the sociologist Mitch Berbrier examined dozens of white supremacist media appearances and publications and discovered a pattern of carefully crafted victim ideology. Victimhood, it seemed, is how the groups assured themselves they weren’t being racist—the excuse being that, hey, they’re suffering too.

In his study, Berbrier found that white supremacists believe:

(1) that whites are victims of discrimination

White supremacists seem aggrieved by their sense that civil rights movement has tipped the balance in favor of minority groups. Here, Berbrier cites David Duke’s organization, the National Association for the Advancement of White People, as positioning itself as a counterpoint to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People:

The NAACP promotes racial discrimination by seeking discriminatory policies against white people in employment, promotions, scholarships, and in college and union admittance, while the NAAWP seeks equal opportunity for all, with preference for the hardest-working, most talented, and best-qualified ... The NAAWP seeks greater racial understanding and goodwill by showing that when all things are considered, blacks have enjoyed far more benefits from whites than they have endured privation. American blacks have the highest standard of living, the greatest educational and employment opportunity, and by far the most democratic and civil rights of any blacks anywhere in the world. (NAAWP News, 1980)

The group’s newsletter, the NAAWP News, ran items with headlines such as "Anti-White Discrimination Accelerates,” Berbrier notes. Today, this sentiment survives as the myth that affirmative action, for instance, constitutes “reverse racism.”

(2) that their rights are being abrogated

As a corollary, white supremacists believe whites are denied the right to their own publications and advocacy groups—a right enjoyed by minority groups. As the KKK leader Thom Robb put it in 1992, according to the study: “The issue isn't who's superior ... Even if we [whites] were nothing but a race of cavemen, we still have a right to preserve our heritage and culture and give that to our children. Nobody has the right to deny that from us. And that is the attempt that's being done today.”

(3) that they are stigmatized if they express "pride”

Berbrier points to the following quote in a 1991 issue of The Populist Observer, the newsletter of the Populist Party: “Blacks, Orientals, Indians and Hispanics are taught to love their history, while whites are being taught to hate their own.”

According to Berbrier’s analysis, these supremacist groups feel that if whites do express pride in their heritage, they are branded racists and bigots. He writes that their euphemisms, like “heritage preservation” are so-called “ethnic affectations designed to destigmatize white supremacists and separatists alike by implying that they are just another ethnic group with similar needs.”

This is reflected in the obsession with Norse culture and mythology among some of today’s white supremacists. Since this paper was published, at least six domestic terror plots were conducted by so-called “Odinists”—racist adherents of an ancient religion, as Reveal News reported. The rituals of the Odinists—using Germanic phrases and drinking mead from horns—seem like attempts to recapture a bygone time in an all-white land.

One adherent, a Holocaust denier named Brandon Lashbrook, explained the appeal of the religion to reporter Will Carless: “Races just don’t really mix well, especially if whites are the minority among other racial groups—if we’re under attack or we’re threatened. It just doesn’t ever work in our favor.”

(4) that they are being psychologically affected through the loss of self-esteem

Berbrier points to examples of supremacist literature that claim the inability to express white pride produces a feeling of being “crushed” and the “Nordic spirit” being “broken down.” One news item in the NAAWP News pointed to a high suicide rate among white men as a sign of this supposed despair. Consequences—even imaginary ones—are essential to painting yourself as a victim, according to the sociological theory of "the dramatization of injury and innocence.” In other words, you’re just a blameless bystander; your attackers are everywhere, and they wish you harm.

(5) that the end product of all of this is the elimination of "the white race."

White supremacists fear the white “race” will be “eliminated” through intermarriage, immigration, and low birth rates among whites. The solution, to them, is racial segregation: the ultimate safe place in which to breed only among your own people. "Only in isolation, both physical-mental and genetic can Caucasians survive either here or in the world,” wrote one supremacist in a letter, according to Berbrier. “It has gotten to a point of not being a matter of ‘white, Caucasian' supremacy but rather survival.”

These claims of subjugation may seem silly coming from whites, a group that still earns more, lives longer, and feels overall happier than African Americans do. But as Berbrier shows, victimhood is a powerful psychological mechanism for recruiting members, galvanizing around a cause, and forming what is essentially a support group—for people who really don’t need support.

As Berbrier writes, the psychology of victimhood has come in especially handy for white supremacists when their tactics get violent, as they did on Saturday. “This could be manifest as the argument that white supremacists are simply concerned with the survival of their people,” Berbrier writes, “and that if some on the fringe feel that urgent action is required as a result of dangers posed by sinister outside forces, that is understandable.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2020 11:33PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: February 17, 2020 02:31AM

Thank you anybody. That lays out the (bad word) these people are working others with. The same strategy is being used in current politics for the same reason. Control of those that don't do their own research,think deeply or have a broad base of experiences to pull from. BTW, they are also HORRIBLY sexist. Women OWE them sex for no other reason than they are white males. "I exist, therefore I am OWED." This is also the segment of our population that is the biggest threat to all of us. The largest group of TERRORISTS.

And straight up, BYU is just (several bad words) stupid. What the hell did the idiots think was going to happen? You don't take ANONYMOUS real time questions period let alone at a (more bad words) school with generations of cultural racism! I would like to see the stats on non white students that are NOT athletes. This shows how out of touch the admins are with REALITY. And it ties right in with how they have handled rape too.

OK I am getting off the soap box now before I pick it up and smack someone with it. But really, stupid gets me pissed.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 18, 2020 07:15AM

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustus-sol-invictus-white-nationalist-history-violence_n_5e4717b3c5b64d860fcac76a


White nationalist lawyer Augustus Sol Invictus, who helped organize the deadly 2017 “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, was denied release on Friday as he awaits trial for charges of domestic violence, kidnapping and using a gun in commission of a crime. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 55 years in prison.

The charges against Invictus are the latest in a series of abuse allegations: HuffPost obtained 10 police reports documenting past incidents of violence and threats of violence — including three reports where victims accused Invictus of pointing a gun at them.

Invictus, who has said he is innocent, was arrested in December, after his wife Anna Invictus reported an instance of abuse to law enforcement. On Friday, she read a statement in court detailing years of alleged violence. During their six-year relationship, Augustus Invictus held her captive in a locked room for days, beat her, dragged her though the house, choked her until she passed out, threatened to kill her, and took away her phone so she couldn’t call for help, she alleged in the statement, which she authorized HuffPost to share publicly.

Augustus Invictus often beat her in the stomach and the head, where her bruises would be less visible, she wrote.

He used his status as a lawyer to threaten to take custody of their children, “effectively keeping me under his control,” Anna Invictus wrote in her statement. “My 13 year old daughter and I fear he will come into our home and kill me if he is granted bond.”

https://newrepublic.com/article/145325/alt-right-doesnt-know-white-women

As Angela Nagle noted in Jacobin earlier this year, there has already been tension on the right between the moralist conservatism that “aims for a return to traditional marriage while disapproving of porn and promiscuity,” and the “libertine internet culture from which all the real energy has emerged.” Devlin, like other MRAs("men's rights activists"), takes the notion of gender separation based on “biological” difference even further than the traditionalists, advocating that men look abroad (e.g., to Eastern Europe) for more subservient women, and push for a complete upheaval of the traditionalist understanding of marriage as entailing male obligations. Under his view, traditionalist visions of heterosexual marriage did not oppress women enough. He opts instead for a vision of absolute female servility. Part of this argument is economic: he claims in his essay “Home Economics,” that most marriages today are premised on the idea that “a woman marries a meal ticket; a man marries trouble and expense.” He calls on men to abandon the “chivalrous pretense” underlying marriage and shake off their traditional economic responsibilities. Even in the company of reactionaries, this exhortation can come with its own baggage, especially given the urgency with which the alt-right speaks of “white extinction.” The possibility of abandoning financial support for white women and their white babies comes with its own wealth of contradictions in an ideology dedicated to preserving whiteness and white supremacy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2020 07:28AM by anybody.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 01:43PM

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “Why don’t we have a white history month?”
>
Because every month is "White History Month", except February.
But I'm with Morgan Freeman, "Black History" shouldn't be relegated to the shortest Month.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 02:12PM


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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 02:38PM


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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: June 05, 2020 11:05PM

topping

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: June 05, 2020 11:47PM


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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: February 15, 2020 04:54PM

Questions?

Answers.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 17, 2020 04:15AM

That is so incomprehensible that it must be deep. Right?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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Posted by: OneWayJay ( )
Date: February 17, 2020 10:28AM

A lot of the questions make sense if one has had no interaction with Black people. Much of what one sees on the news has them as criminals, welfare cheats and irresponsible types.

I think, dumb and insensitive as some of them are, they most likely reflect actual questions coming from ignorance. Why not answer the questions and educate those who ask? Over reaction like happened does not help.

BYU could have used the forum to educate the students - but admitting the ignorance isn't something they want to deal with.

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Posted by: SL Richards ( )
Date: February 18, 2020 06:20AM

I learned in my mission in South America that Utah and Idaho mormons are incredibly racist pigs. I nearly got into a fiat fight with a BYU football star, the AP, because of how he treated the indigenous missionaries.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: February 18, 2020 12:22PM

The proper response to those questions would be to address them, discuss them openly. You are not going to change racist thinking by not discussing the issues.

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Posted by: MormonMartinLuther ( )
Date: June 06, 2020 08:51PM

This is one of the most intelligent responses on this topic I have heard in awhile. Thank you Hedning.

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